Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Tong2020 · Jun 26, 2021

Enoch111 said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
For salvation is not something that God offers to fallen man, but which comes out from His love.

Click to expand...

When people start spouting such nonsense you can be sure that they are simply pushing an agenda. That "not" and "but" do not belong in this sentence. And that is clear from John 3:16.

So what does the Bible proclaim? "Salvation is something which God offers to fallen man BECAUSE it comes from His love."

No agenda but the truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Where in the passage is the offer of salvation?

As I have argued, when Adam and Eve sinned, having disobeyed God, when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what did God do? Did He offer to save them?

Salvation is of God. Man has nothing to do whatsoever with it. It is grace. And God do not offer His grace, He gives it. And that, according to His nature, will, purpose, pleasure, and glory.

Tong
R3782

Enoch111 · Jun 26, 2021

Tong2020 said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Where in the passage is the offer of salvation?

If you cannot see the offer of salvation in this verse then you are being wilfully blind.

Tong2020 said:
As I have argued, when Adam and Eve sinned, having disobeyed God, when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what did God do? Did He offer to save them?

God offered to save humanity through Christ if you can grasp that Genesis 3:15 is actually about Christ "the Seed of the Woman". The Bible is silent about the eventual destiny of Adam and Eve.

Tong2020 · Jun 26, 2021

Enoch111 said:
If you cannot see the offer of salvation in this verse then you are being wilfully blind.

God offered to save humanity through Christ if you can grasp that Genesis 3:15 is actually about Christ "the Seed of the Woman". The Bible is silent about the eventual destiny of Adam and Eve.

Regarding John 3:16, you see it as God’s offer of His salvation. On the other hand I see it as the gospel of the salvation of God declared.

Regarding Gen.3:15, no offer of salvation likewise could be seen there, but a prophetic declaration.

Tong
R3784

Taken · Jun 26, 2021

Tong2020 said:
It is mankind that has fallen in Adam whom God saves. And that is because He loves mankind.

When Adam and Eve sinned, having disobeyed God, when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what did God do? Did He offer to save them?

But if you can show scriptures that effectively says that God offered salvation, please do so that I may consider it.

Tong
R3781

Adam and Eve...adult bodies..yet mind of babes. While we later learn what they did was a sin...They had not yet been taught or even heard the word sin. After their error, of not obeying to avoid that tree, they immediately understood their WRONG, and do what little babes do...THEY HID....

Later we learn, God forgives "wrongs".
Later we learn, he whom God forgives, and he whom accepts God as their God...God "covers" their sin/wrong, (with His Light/ Spirit) and thus, as Light overcomes darkness, only Light remains, and thereafter, God does not See the forgiven wrong, and remembers it no more.

In conjunction with forgiveness and covering of a wrong/sin....is correction, punishment. Perhaps a scolding, a reminder, or God removing one from his presence.

God ... reminded them of what God had told them.
They ... truthfully admitted they ate.
God ... accepted their truthful admission.
God ... clothed (covered) their flesh (that had freely not obeyed) with animal skins.
( I presume an animals blood was shed, and God did not cover them with a living animal. )
God ... punished them by sending them out of Gods presence (in the Garden)
Later we learn Adam was accounted as a "son of God".

Gen 1,2,3 and Romans 4:7 and Luke 3:38 gives us in brief Gods Way.
Obey, disobey, receive punishment, accept correction, submit to belief, be forgiven, sins covered, trust, believe, commit, become a son of God.

God had not yet taught Adam and Eve of "what sin was, or what salvation was". They were given forgiveness, when God covered their flesh. They were given separation (punishment) when they were booted out of the garden. We know They believed in God, when we are told...Adam was a son of God.

A man has to first KNOW, he is sinful, before he can know he needs forgiveness. And KNOW, forgiveness is Offered, before he can request Gods Offering.
Adam didn't know, Adam was an exception...
Without history, without experience;
And since Adam, men have had history, experiences, other mens testimonies and experiences, for the last 6,000 years, learning Gods Word, and Gods Offering of Forgiveness and Salvation.

IS it God NOT "OFFERING" to Adam, ( that has you puzzled? ) That without Gods OFFERING, God gave Adam forgiveness?

Taken

Tong2020 · Jun 26, 2021

Taken said:
Adam and Eve...adult bodies..yet mind of babes. While we later learn what they did was a sin...They had not yet been taught or even heard the word sin. After their error, of not obeying to avoid that tree, they immediately understood their WRONG, and do what little babes do...THEY HID....

Later we learn, God forgives "wrongs".
Later we learn, he whom God forgives, and he whom accepts God as their God...God "covers" their sin/wrong, (with His Light/ Spirit) and thus, as Light overcomes darkness, only Light remains, and thereafter, God does not See the forgiven wrong, and remembers it no more.

In conjunction with forgiveness and covering of a wrong/sin....is correction, punishment. Perhaps a scolding, a reminder, or God removing one from his presence.

God ... reminded them of what God had told them.
They ... truthfully admitted they ate.
God ... accepted their truthful admission.
God ... clothed (covered) their flesh (that had freely not obeyed) with animal skins.
( I presume an animals blood was shed, and God did not cover them with a living animal. )
God ... punished them by sending them out of Gods presence (in the Garden)
Later we learn Adam was accounted as a "son of God".

Gen 1,2,3 and Romans 4:7 and Luke 3:38 gives us in brief Gods Way.
Obey, disobey, receive punishment, accept correction, submit to belief, be forgiven, sins covered, trust, believe, commit, become a son of God.

God had not yet taught Adam and Eve of "what sin was, or what salvation was". They were given forgiveness, when God covered their flesh. They were given separation (punishment) when they were booted out of the garden. We know They believed in God, when we are told...Adam was a son of God.

A man has to first KNOW, he is sinful, before he can know he needs forgiveness. And KNOW, forgiveness is Offered, before he can request Gods Offering.
Adam didn't know, Adam was an exception...
Without history, without experience;
And since Adam, men have had history, experiences, other mens testimonies and experiences, for the last 6,000 years, learning Gods Word, and Gods Offering of Forgiveness and Salvation.

IS it God NOT "OFFERING" to Adam, ( that has you puzzled? ) That without Gods OFFERING, God gave Adam forgiveness?

Taken

<<<God ... punished them by sending them out of Gods presence (in the Garden)>>>

Gen.3:22-24 tells us the reason why God sent them out of the garden of Eden.

Gen.3:17-19 tells us the God had for Adam and Eve to experience in this life as a consequence of their breaking His command.

<<<forgiveness is Offered>>>

Forgiveness is not offered. It is given. God have mercy on whom He wills to give it.

<<<IS it God NOT "OFFERING" to Adam, ( that has you puzzled? ) >>>

No, I am not puzzled. Why I say that salvation is not offered, is because I don’t find any scriptures, at least as per my reading, that says it is offered.

<<<IS it God NOT "OFFERING" to Adam, ( that has you puzzled? ) That without Gods OFFERING, God gave Adam forgiveness?>>>

I am not sure if I understand your question here.

God clothed them. That’s God’s grace. That’s mercy. That’s love. He did it freely and unconditionally.

Tong
R3785

Taken · Jun 26, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Forgiveness is not offered. It is given. God have mercy on whom He wills to give it.

Heb 10:10
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

"IF"... one accepts His Offering.

Romans 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Taken

Jostler · Jun 26, 2021

Kermos said:
Nothing, absolutely nothing, that God knows will happen can be thwarted by man (Job 42:2); therefore, Adam could not avoid that which God prophesied would happen in God's command to Adam (Genesis 2:16-17).

You do not have two different instances from scripture where God said God foreknew something that failed to occur. You don't even have one.

If you think you have one, then you certainly do not know the Word of God for your god would be a god of failure.

Back onto topic of Adam not being imparted free will AND WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL HAD TO WRITE ABOUT ADAM.

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

You eliminated even considering evidence, before you even heard it. Typical...

Kermos · Jun 26, 2021

Renniks said:
Um, no, that explicitly says that the creation did not choose to be subject, not that Adam didn't choose to sin.

Adam is part of the creation, see Genesis 2:7.

Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

So nothing in creation willingly subjected the creation to futility.

Therefore, Adam did not willingly (Romans 8:20) eat of the tree.

"Choice" is ruled out of the creation account!

Adam was NOT imparted free will, so no one afterward got a free will. The original post quotes the Word of God showing this fact.

Every time you implicate "choice" into the creation account, you add to Genesis and you subtract from Romans.

Too many people think that they can implicate whatever they want into scripture, but what you people really are doing is claiming to be a god by implicating in your thoughts and words into the Word of God.

Vid · Jun 27, 2021

Kermos said:
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your answer. The thing is, billions of people didn't chose God, not out of free will but for lack of understanding. On the other hand, I know a number of alleged Christians who are really satanists and who pretend to have chosen Jesus although they never renounced Lucifer. They yet have been warned they won't go to Heaven unless they chose Jesus ONLY:

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. (Matthew 6:24 and, similarly, Luke 16:13-15)

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24 and, similarly, Luke 18:25 + Mark 10:25).

The sad part is that some of them are not even rich but they still obey Lucifer and stick to the rules he gave to the rich and, even sadder, they think of themselves as Christians because a priest (unknowlingly) baptized them when John the Baptist definitely wouldn't have:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." (Matthew 3:7-9 and, similarly, Luke 3:7-8)

So, do we have free will? Of course, we do and I suggest people who will read my post and who think of themselves as Christians although they really are satanists to use their free will to renounce Lucifer once and for all, choose Jesus for good and produce fruits worthy of repentance because, as stressed out by John the Baptist, a mere confession certainly isn't enough. I also suggest they think twice before rejecting the help I am offering them, publicly of via PM:

"Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." (Matthew 10:11-15 (and, similarly, Luke 10:10-12)

and, as warned in Luke 14:1-24, they won't be offered another chance.

I may not know the Bible as well as some priests, pastors and scholars do but I often (not always) understand it in ways they cannot because I met God, Jesus, Mother Mary and Archangel Michael during my first NDE and, during my second NDE, I received the grace those two verses tell about:

"Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45)

"At that time Jesus said: I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." (Matthew 11:45 and, similarly, Luke 10:21-22).

One last word to satanists (and I'm sorry if I seem to troll but satanists really are the ones trying to pervert knowledge about free will to suggest it is ok to hurt people so I cannot really talk about free will without debunking Satanists false claims): Lucifer and Satan are not the same. Lucifer is an angel and suffering doesn't allow his power to grow. Satanists can therefore hurt people all they want, they can abuse their own children -- as all of them do -- Lucifer's power won't grow and it will remain way inferior to God's. Now, suffering does allow Satan to grow since Satan only is the aggregation of human's thoughts and emotions as Jesus hints in Matthew 16:23 and, similarly, Mark 8:33:

"Jesus turned and said to Peter: Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

The problem is that since Satan is like spiritual filth and, as such, has no will of its own, it will fall down as pandemics, Earth quakes, tsunamis, climate change, etc. on all humans, Satanists included, just like dust spreads evenly in a house, but Lucifer cannot protect anyone from Satan, only God can.

Now when I say only God can protect from Satan, I really mean God, not Jesus as a person. This means that when Jesus says: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6), he really means : "Love is the only way to Heaven", as he clearly states in Mark 12:28-31:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him: 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?' The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength'. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself'. There is no commandment greater than these.”

Now, listen carefully, because this is going to be a lot to take in but it is the main teaching Jesus gave me when I was with him in Heaven: Jesus as God, e.g. as Love and not as a person, being the only way to Heaven, a loving Muslim or a loving Buddhist are closer to Jesus and more likely to go to Heaven than stone-hearted Christians. Jesus clearly gives this clue to those who have ears to hear:

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16) and the shepherd will maybe not be called Jesus or even recognized as being Jesus but he will be the embodiment of the infinite Peace, Love and Bliss that God is.

To make a long story short: using our free will to choose God is not a one time thing, it is a continuous challenge and we should always choose Love over anything else. Christians who have a Bible instead of a heart and who end up looking down on anyone who isn't as good as they think they are -- for example judging homosexuals or despising Muslims, two attitudes which are sadly among the rare things Christians from all denominations agree on -- should meditate on that.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 27, 2021

Kermos said:
Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
AND the firm fact is established
THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)

Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted

Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God

The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities

God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will

Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
WHICH Adam heard from Eve
FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
AND action is the context
SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will

The attribute of "joining" - marriage

Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)

"God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ

"God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)

"God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman

God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients

The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman

The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

Yes Adam was given free will and was created sinless. He chose to sin and surredered His free will! We have free will resotred when we are born again.

Renniks · Jun 27, 2021

Kermos said:
Adam is part of the creation,

Look I don't know how to make this any clearer: creation was not subject to decay until after Adam sinned! You can not blame Adam's sin on something that happened later. Besides it wasn't about Free Will at all, and it never says it was.

Enoch111 · Jun 27, 2021

Renniks said:
...creation was not subject to decay until after Adam sinned!

This is so elementary. That's called the Law of Cause and Effect, which led to the Law of Entropy.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

Renniks said:
If Free Will does not exist, deception can not exist. How can you be decieved if you have no will of your own? You can only do what God programmed you to do.

Your post is poorly composed, so I address it based upon altered grammar.

The Word of God says "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

The Word of God says that deceit exists.

No scripture says Adam was imparted a free will, so no man thereafter was imparted a free will, and the original post shows this scripturally.

Man is accountable for man's sin, and every man sins (Romans 1:20, Romans 3:19, Romans 5:12); in other words, God is not accountable for the sins of man.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20).

Every person commits sin (crime) against God (Romans 3:10-12), so justice requires punishment for sin, even punishment of hell.

Only Jesus Christ alone satisfied the payment for sin on the cross for we who receive the work of God which is believing in the Son whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), and this blessed salvation is to the exclusive glory of God!

Your thoughts embedded in your questions show that you wander blindly (Matthew 15:14) rejecting the Word of God (John 12:48).

This goes for you @Backlit too since you liked Renniks post.

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

Davy said:
I didn't call The Word of God garbage, you white-washed wall. What you said is what I called garbage...

You said:
"I know the identity of who tells you that you have a freewill, and it is not the Word of God
John 1:14"

But the actual John 1:14 Scripture says this...

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Nowhere in that verse does it say anything about the idea of free will.

That shows you like to just throw a Scripture reference up behind your garbage words as if God's Word backs you ideas up. That is the way of the charlatan.

You called the Word pf God garbage, just as I showed in this post.

I also showed that Lord Jesus is the Word of God as recorded by the Apostle John (John 1:14).

Just as the original post shows based on scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no one thereafter has a free will.

No Christian calls the Word of God "garbage"!

Let me refresh your memory, the specific parts of the Word of God that you called garbage were John 8:34-47,, John 8:34, John 8:37, John 8:44.

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

Riverwalker said:
As soon as Adam had a choice to do wrong he had freewill

You add your words to the Word of God because the Word does not state Adam had a choice to obey or not in Genesis 1-3.

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

"Not willingly" indicates "not freewill".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

Renniks said:
Wait a minute. You think creation was broken before sin? That has to be the most bizarre interpretation I've heard from you and that's saying something!

The whole reason creation is groaning is because Eve, then Adam, then everyone else chose to sin. Creation will be restored to an Eden like State when Christ returns.

Wait a minute, you are contradicting the Apostle Paul. Just FYI, all the creation was very good (Genesis 1:31), and the original post conveys this fact based on the Word of God which I believe. To be clear, the creation was not "broken", as you try to implicate into what I've written.

Back to you contradicting Paul.

Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:22, not "since the fall", so "until now" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).

That "until now" includes "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22).

That "whole creation" includes Adam.

The serpent was in Eden (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), so your "broken" encounters a problem right there. I don't say it's "broken", but I say that God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ will occur; on the other hand, you have a huge problem because the serpent is there in Eden (Eden of which you wrote in your post).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

"Not willingly" for Adam by Paul indicates "not choice".

"Not willingly" for Adam by Paul indicates "not freewill".

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

Curtis said:
And your claiming without one word of scripture, that God is the author of sin by causing Adam to sin because he had no free will, and had to disobey Gods command.

The god of scripture doesn’t give a command, cause someone to break that command, then punish them for breaking the command.

Who’s your god?

Name two people not created by God, Curtis.

Name two people that are sinless, Curtis.

Name one scripture that states man was imparted free will, Curtis.

When a man can obey God's commands, it it solely by the Power of God (John 3:21, John 5:5) for the glory of God!

The absence of scripture in your post shows just how empty your thoughts are, and your thoughts are not God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Adam was made flesh (Genesis 2:7, Genesis 2:23), and the Apostle Paul wrote ""the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Yes you said that God prophesied at Genesis 2:17, I didn't. I disagreed with you that it was a prophecy. I have stated it was a command not a prophecy, at Genesis 2:17. What I did say is that by you saying that Genesis 2:17 was a prophecy, then you're saying by believing that, that it was God who set the course of disobedience for Adam because Adam nor any human can make any other choice than what God prophesied. So you are saying that God set the course of obedience for Adam because you say Genesis 2:17 is a prophecy, I'm not the one who says it was a prophecy you are, so since you believe that, then you're saying that God set sin and death in motion. Now that's a detestable and disgusting thing to believe about the True God but that's what your being, detestable and disgusting, by saying that Genesis 2 17 is a prophecy and not a command.
By the way if your saying Adam or any human can make a choice, such choose to be obedient or disobedient then that's free will. So what do you believe in, that mankind can make choices which means they're free moral agents or do you believe we don't have free will therefore we don't make choices but someone has made those choices for us.

You seem very afraid of thread integrity. Here is the the post to which you replied.

You are under the delusion that what you think rules above the Word of God.

The Word of God states "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" (Genesis 2:16-17).

That "when in the day you are to eat of it" (Genesis 2:17) Word of God indicates prophecy.

There is no choice in the passage, so you are adding choice to the Word of God.

Regarding man's will, it's time to compare your writing to Paul's writing.

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

"Not willingly" indicates "not freewill".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

Renniks · Jun 29, 2021

Kermos said:
Wait a minute, you are contradicting the Apostle Paul. Just FYI, all the creation was very good (Genesis 1:31), and the original post conveys this fact based on the Word of God which I believe. To be clear, the creation was not "broken", as you try to implicate into what I've written.

Back to you contradicting Paul.

Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:22, not "since the fall", so "until now" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).

That "until now" includes "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22).

That "whole creation" includes Adam.

The serpent was in Eden (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), so your "broken" encounters a problem right there. I don't say it's "broken", but I say that God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ will occur; on the other hand, you have a huge problem because the serpent is there in Eden (Eden of which you wrote in your post).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

"Not willingly" for Adam by Paul indicates "not choice".

"Not willingly" for Adam by Paul indicates "not freewill".

When was creation subject to frustration?
"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Not always.
Everything was created ," very good", in the beginning. It was subjected to frustration after the fall of Man. If you can't get even the most basic biblical tenets of Christianity correct, why would we listen to your theological ramblings?

Kermos · Jun 29, 2021

Taken said:
What a concocted twisted mess.

* Mankind is naturally born AGAINST God.
Pss 51:
5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

* Gods Works, IS God revealing to mankind...
Gods Word, Gods Truth, Gods Order, Gods Way, Gods Life.
**Order:
Col 1:
17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
** Way, Truth, Life
John 14:
6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

God IS all knowing. God KNOWS before a man is naturally born, what a man will Freely Choose and Do.
Man is NOT all knowing. Man is born in sin Against God. Man "can Choose" to Hear, Learn, Discover, ABOUT God "revealing" Works, of Who He is, What He Offers to men..."Or NOT."
Mans FREEWILL ^^^ Hear or Not.
Mans FREEWILL ^^^ Believe or Not.
Mans FReEWILL ^^^ Commit or Not.

* Not a big secret...God already KNOWS what a man WILL CHOOSE.
* Not a big secret...Mans Decides to Hear, Believe, Reject, or Accept.
* Not a big secret...A man can not CHOOSE to Believe in "something" he does not FIRST have KNOWLEDGE there is a "something".
* Not a big secret...God is All Knowing...He makes the FIRST Choice.
* Not a big secret...God Chooses to CALL unto Him, Men "God KNOWS", WILL ALSO FREELY CHOOSE "HIM"!!!

If YOU have ever participated in Voting for "anything" / "anyone", you SHOULD be Keen enough to KNOW....YOU are "CHOOSING", making an "ELECTION", "Voting FOR", Expressing "your FREEWILL".

You SHOULD study the Scriptures that actually TEACH what is being discussed.

* God IS FIRST, Before ALL things.
* God Reveals His WORKS to mankind.
....(open your eyes, your ears, Look, see, hear Gods Works)
* God Chooses FIRST, whom He WiLL, "HIS WILL" His Call.
* Man WHO sees, Man WHO hears... thereafter FREELY Chooses/Elects the Lord God....or NOT!

God IS JUST. God "CALLS" MANY.
(Mans "opportunity", to see and hear)
God IS JUST. God "CHOOSES" men WHO,
CHOOSE/Elect "HIM"!!

Matt 22:
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

HUMMMM....So HOW DO YOU KNOW, YOU ARE CHOSEN of God?

Can't say FOR YOU. But For me... I expressly KNOW, I am Chosen BY the Lord God...
BECAUSE;
I FREELY CHOSE, to Hear Gods WORKS, His Word, His Order, His Way, His Truth.
I FREELY CHOSE, to Believe What I heard of the Lord God.
I FREELY CHOSE, to "ELECT" Choose the Lord God, as MY God, MY Lord, MY Savior, My Forgiver, My Creator, MY Maker, MY Truth, My Life giver.

And guess what...He Acknowledged, And Accepted My express choice and commitment to Him, Once and Forever, according to His Own Faithfulness and Word of Promise.

1 Thes 1;
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

And guess what....
BECAUSE I have made Known to the Lord God, MY ELECTION OF the Lord God Almighty...

The Lord God Himself "INCLUDED" me (via His Grace, His Power, His Word) to MAKE me, "CHANGED"....MADE WHOLE...(before "MY" physical death).

The Lord God Himself "EXCLUDED" me (via His Grace, His Power, His Word) to MAKE me, Appointed TO suffer, the next (and last) great Tribulation and Wrath prophecy, that SHALL come upon the Earth.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I am, ALREADY DELIVERED FROM the WRATH TO COME.

1 Thes 1:
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Adam was instructed to NOT eat of a particular Tree. (ONE prohibition).
Temptation, (of something good to eat), over came Adam, and he FREELY Chose to Eat what was forbidden for him to Eat (to avoid a negative consequence).

Ta da....Adam exercised "his FREEWILL".
Ta da....Adam became "appointed to" bodily Death...THE CONSEQUENCE...for freely choosing to Eat of that forbidden tree.

Ta da...We all have free will to CHOOSE, what we Decide to Choose.
We are all warned of the "consequences" for our freewill choices.
No one escapes the "consequences".

Adams Choice to eat, DID NOT effect His Salvation. What it effected was, his physical body would die, and it did.
We clearly learn, Adam believed IN God, and Adams soul was Saved.

All mens physical body's SHALL Die...
But God provides all men, An Order, Way, means (to be MADE WHOLE)...for mankinds soul to be saved, their spirit reborn, and their body to become made changed into a glorious perfected body.

Glory to God,
Taken

You wrote "Gods Works, IS God revealing to mankind".

The Apostle Paul wrote that person's will and person's work is the work of God in persons with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

You wrote "God KNOWS before a man is naturally born, what a man will Freely Choose"

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

You wrote "Adams Choice to eat, DID NOT effect His Salvation. What it effected was, his physical body would die, and it did.
We clearly learn, Adam believed IN God, and Adams soul was Saved.".

Wow, your words do not match the Word of God, so you do not believe the Word of God (John 1:14).

Furthermore, you contradicted the Apostle Paul by your claim that Adam had a free will.

Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:22, not "since the fall", so "until now" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).

That "until now" includes "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22).

That "whole creation" includes Adam.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

"Not willingly" for Adam by Paul indicates "not choice".

"Not willingly" for Adam by Paul indicates "not freewill".

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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