Where is hell? Where is heaven?

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Philip James

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Yeah, it's just amazing. A god who wants to scare me into loving him is a god for which I have no use. Either he made me the wrong way or the whole thing (life) is just a ribbing. None for me thanks, I'm driving.

God is love. Not terrorist. Amen?

Hi Barny,

God is indeed love, but also perfectly Holy, all powerful, all knowing....

Is not obedience out of fear better than disobedience?

'The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom'

But then, 'perfect love drives out all fear'..

Has love been yet perfected in us?

Who can stand before the Consuming Fire?

Peace be with you!
 

DNB

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But in taking the position you have taken, aren't you assuming that God is bound by the constraints of sciences that He, Himself conceived, constructed, and sustains?
No, He's not restrained by any form a physics or materialism, ...but, outside of literary conventions, that would make any language meaningless then.
Is it a hard thing for the Sovereign of the universe to mete out just punishment to the lost while keeping them alive long enough to suffer exactly according to their own commensurate guilt?

Or, taking the omniscience and omnipotence of God a little farther, could He not somehow impose on the wicked any amount of suffering He pleases in a split second? The possibilities of the working out of God's will are limitless, aren't they?
Yes, they are limitless, ...but that's a non-sequitur.
Because, here you are espousing a principle that I thought was one of your main arguments against eternal torment - cruel and unusual punishment?
My argument, in order to avoid a charge of sadism against God, or unjust retribution, is that the victims are punishing themselves with feelings of remorse and guilt. But, you are now endorsing a physical infliction, as a means to apply justice to a spiritual crime?
And wouldn't a more sensible juxtaposition be that of between life and death, rather than "eternal life and fire," as long as we're merely speculating--not simply observing actual conveyance?
Yes, there are probably better dichotomies to use, and personally, I feel that either comparison that you suggested has a certain level of ambiguity.
But, in my opinion, due to the prevalent figurative use of fire as torment, throughout the Bible, I believe that we have a valid corollary to exegete fire in this passage, as torment. For, the word death, in this context (specifics about the final judgement), would imply an unconscious void, as in physical death. Fire, as you are stating, does convey destruction, but also judgement, ...but, as I deduced earlier, literal fire as a form of torture or as a final solution, I don't believe is optional on many levels. Thus, it must mean emotional torment.
And, finally, how can the term "eternal death" mean, instead, eternal life in anguish and resentment?
Yes, good point, it is a stretch. But, due to the redundancy, or oxymoron, of the term 'eternal death', again, we are forced to extract a deeper meaning? Thus, eternal is literal, whereas death is figurative for not having an abundant life, or the fullness of life that God will offer to His saints. Again, I don't mean to be frivolous or selective in, when and where to use literalisms and metaphors, but the peculiar phrase 'eternal death', forces one to interpret its meaning in a more profound manner.
 

amadeus

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Lots of things happening today, but how much interest is shown by the average Joe on the street in the Heavens and Hell? This older thread has lots of interesting and perhaps informative posts on this subject.

Below I have copied an older writing of my own from January of 2006 to hopefully renew people's interest :

I do not say that one of the three heavens is earth as in this globe on which we live. As to the author and what he meant…I believe the author was God and while I have an idea regarding three heavens it may not agree exactly with God's idea. [To extent that it doesn’t, of course, it is wrong.] Only He can confirm that for you. God was, by the way, the original author of the heavens [and hell?]An editor or translator may try to improve on or even to change a verse's meaning, but is God not able to take care of His own?

We all have our own 'earth' to deal with: this lump of flesh or clay which we are. We desire —or I do anyway— to get beyond the ways of our own flesh to His Way more perfectly.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

People too often read this 'in the world' as meaning only the physical globe we live on —and it may mean that as well— but 'in the world' is in me. That is where the lusts and the pride still dwell until they have been completely overcome.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Jesus overcame what world? Did He conquer the Roman Empire or the globe called planet Earth? No, but He did overcome His own flesh.

None of us who still commits sin at all has completely overcome his/her own flesh.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." I John 5:4

The first heaven: The 'lowest' place where God deals with the beastly nature of man. This corresponds to the lowest level of the Ark which Noah built. [“A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.” Gen 6:16]

When man first is drawn to God he is still an 'unclean' beast in that lowest level. This might also correspond to the 'outer court' of the physical tabernacle of God in the wilderness.[Exodus Chap 25-31]

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecc 3:18-21

The second heaven: This is the where God continues to deal with man's beastly nature through the gift of His Spirit {Holy Spirit] and would correspond to the second or middle level of the Ark which Noah built. Men who enter here have been cleaned up and thus are 'clean beasts', but still beasts.

The first heaven might also correspond to the outer court of the tabernacle in the wilderness.

[“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.” Matt 12:43-44]

Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and

The portion of parable shown above indicates what happens to us when we repent. The “unclean spirit” is one of our ‘beasts’ which leaves us in first heaven. The portion of the parable not cited tells what happens if empty space in us is not filled with the things of God. In effect we would go back into the man’s world in a worse [because of this experience] condition in God’s eyes than at the first. We cannot stand still in first heaven for if we do we will end up back outside and have to repent anew (assuming God would allow it). If we do move forward from our first repentance the place of growth (receiving the things of God and having the remaining ‘beasts’ purged) this is second heaven.

In second heaven God is preparing us for third heaven (to extent that we allow it) so that we can eventually see His face clearly. This second heaven may also correspond to the 'holy place' of the Tabernacle of God in the wilderness as built by Moses according to God’s plan.

"Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean" Lev 20:25

"And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will." Dan 5:21

"If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die." I Cor 15:32

The third heaven: This might correspond to the highest level of the Ark which Noah built. The entire beastly nature of man (all of our own beasts) must be dead to be able to enter here. This could also correspond to the 'Most holy place' (holiest of holies) in the tabernacle of God in the wilderness. No sin is allowed within. Anyone not properly cleansed and properly attired at exactly the time [God's time] God says will be utterly consumed by the consuming fire of God [Deut 12:24, Deut 9:3 & Heb 12:29].

The following experience of three Hebrews illustrates what will happen to those that are acceptable to God and to those that are not acceptable when they approach Him:

“Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.” Daniel 3:16-18

“Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.” Daniel 3:21-22

“Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:24-25

The three Hebrews answered carefully, not willing to second guess God, but at the same time they confirmed that they knew that God was able to protect them from the fire. When it came to it...He did. The mightiest of soldiers of Nebuchadezzar’s army, on the other hand died when they merely got close to the fire. That fiery furnace is a picture of the third heaven where the Father dwells and where we would have to go to see Him face to face.

Remember God’s words to Moses:

“And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.” Exodus 33:20-23
 
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