Homosexuality

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Is homosexuality a sin?


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aspen

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-- You are correct. Your stance is indeed disappointing.

Your actual statement was:
"All I have ever said about homosexuality is that it is a sin AND that people who are not Christian should be able to choose to live openly as homosexuals without legal persecution."

As I have shown, your "All I have ever said" statement is dishonest. You have said much more than that.


I shall recap for you. I encourage you to read them again:

1. You stated that a person who votes against Gay Marraige is "violating the Civil Rights of homosexuals" and you felt they should be punished.
You have held this position even though the U.S. gov't states it is not a violation of civil rights and the Supreme Court finds laws against gay marraige to be Constitutional.

2. You have falsely claimed that Christians vote against Gay Marraige because they are trying to convert homosexuals,

3. The official stance of your church is to not support Gay Marraige and your Pope said flat out that Gay Marraige will lead to the complete destruction of society as we know it..........yet you say you don't have to listen to him because he didn't say it "Ex Cathedra".......something that has only been done TWICE in the history of the Catholic church.
However, you choose to accepted and defend many other Catholic beliefs and edicts that were not given "Ex Cathedra" and arguing their validity because the church's stance. Tranlsation: Cafeteria Catholic.


Honestly Aspen, dishonesty and hypocrisy are no way to support any cause....




,


Are you seriously going to quibble over a common phrase like 'all I ever said'? Suddenly it has become clear why you consistently over-interpret Paul and the gospel writers....

Don't you realize that the only point you seem to be trying to make in our communications is that I am inconsistent and therefore dishonest or a hypocrite? How does that tired exercise help people think about and discuss the Bible or theology? I am interested in a discussion not simply determining who is wrong.......how boring.

The term 'all I ever said' in modern English does not always indicated 'every word ever produced'- it can also be used to place limits on meaning. In the context I used the phrase 'all I ever said', it was used to limit the message behind the words I produced regarding homosexuality to 'sinful' and 'legal'. In this context, your 3 points do not contradict the meaning of my post only the word count.

Of course if you are going to insist on over-interpreting the phrase, without considering the context, I guess I am just a guilty liar. Because, as you can clearly see, I have used more words than 'sinful' and 'legal'. However, in my defense, I actually haven't technically 'said' anything about homosexuality in your presence - in fact, I have even kept my vocal cords completely still as I type my posts on Christianboards. WAIT! That is another lie! As I breathe, my vocal cords do move slightly, although without sound.....boy! that was close! I bet we saved at least three more interactions about that lie.

Words you have attributed to my character like 'hypocrite', 'dishonest' only communicate your distrust of my intention and my message. My suggestion is to either work on 'suspending your disbelief' about me or move on. If you really think I am a reprobate why bother communicating with me? I know I am only interested in communicating with people I consider to be my equals - why you seem to enjoy wallowing in the gutter with me is beyond my understanding - perhaps you are simply providing charity.

Finally, I want to point out that you have not disappointed me with your thorough practice of attributing sinister intentions to my posts - of course, it couldn't be a misunderstanding over a statement I made that wasn't as concrete as you would like it to be - I must be lying.

I really thought you were above all this....
 
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Jul 6, 2011
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Aspen2,
Are you seriously going to quibble over a common phrase like 'all I ever said'
It should be obvious to you now that you are trying to avoid addressing any challenge to what you have written as a quibble. These are not quibbles to anyone except yourself. What you have written and are being challenged on are statements that are incorrect and misleading.
 
 

Foreigner

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Apr 14, 2010
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Are you seriously going to quibble over a common phrase like 'all I ever said'?

-- That 'common phrase' has a common definition.
I have simply shown that what you have said during this discourse has gone well, well beyond that common definition.




Suddenly it has become clear why you consistently over-interpret Paul and the gospel writers....

-- Hmmmm....is that worse than disragarding the scriptures to support a cause that God opposes?




Don't you realize that the only point you seem to be trying to make in our communications is that I am inconsistent and therefore dishonest or a hypocrite?

-- Ohhhhh, so close. What I did was simply show your own words.
It is those words that have shown you are "inconsistent and therefore dishonest or a hypocrite."




The term 'all I ever said' in modern English does not always indicated 'every word ever produced'

-- But it does imply minimal input or involvement.

Accusing people of violating civil rights if they vote against gay marraige,
claiming that those who vote against gay marraige are simply trying to convert homosexuals,
insinuating that two gay married people even crossing the state line into a state like CO will be arrested for that marraige,
and trying to deflect from the topic by claiming that anyone overweight who speaks from the pulpit is a hypocrite and/or not saved is HARDLY minimal input or involvement. :lol:




I guess I am just a guilty liar. Because, as you can clearly see, I have used more words than 'sinful' and 'legal'. However, in my defense, I actually haven't technically 'said' anything about homosexuality in your presence - in fact, I have even kept my vocal cords completely still as I type my posts on Christianboards. WAIT! That is another lie! As I breathe, my vocal cords do move slightly, although without sound.....boy! that was close! I bet we saved at least three more interactions about that lie.

-- LOL, Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Aspen ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




Words you have attributed to my character like 'hypocrite', 'dishonest' only communicate your distrust of my intention and my message.

-- I don't distrust your intention. I disagree with your intention.
As far as your message, I have simply shown that a person willing to support a cause that runs counter to the will of God, is willing to say anything - honest or dishonest - to get that cause supported and those that oppose it criticized.
You have more than lived up to that. Please note the specific examples I have provided.....




Finally, I want to point out that you have not disappointed me with your thorough practice of attributing sinister intentions to my posts

-- You have in the course of your support of gay marraige:

1, Unjustly (and incorrectly) accused those that don't vote to support gay marraige of "violating the civil rights of homosexuals,"
2. Dishonestly claimed that Christians who vote against gay marraige are only doing so to convert homosexuals.
3. Said that homosexuals that marry in the U.S. could face jail time in some states when you KNOW that at worst the marraige would simply not be recognized in a state.

If those aren't "attributing sinister intentions........"
 

mandygirl

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Aug 15, 2012
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Its very clear cut in the Bible, it is a sin. In my view: we should do everything we can to warn homosexuals of the dangers of their acts and what will happen to them if they continue. Do we turn away from a tough fight? I say no way. JMHO as always. love mandy
 

Foreigner

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Apr 14, 2010
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I read this article today. It's part of a three-part series beginning with a 22 year old man who feels that scripture doesn't condemn homosexuality.
All three parts are very interesting, but this part (rather lengthy) deals with the opinions and insights of Christians dealing with same-sex attraction today.
Some I agree with. So I don't. But their words give some excellent insight that has helped me to see things from an additinal ange.

As I said, it is long, but you can select just a person or two and sample if you wish. I think it is well worth it.

http://global.christianpost.com/news/christians-with-same-sex-attractions-weigh-in-on-homosexuality-bible-debate-82467/


Christians With Same-Sex Attractions Weigh in on Homosexuality-Bible Debate

Identifying as Gay and Christian | Feeling Called to Celibacy | Same-Sex Attraction a Choice?





By Nicola Menzie , Christian Post Reporter
October 1, 2012|4:25 pm
Editor's Note: This is the final part in a three-part series featuring both sides of the debate on the Bible and homosexuality. The series began with an interview with Matthew Vines, and was followed by a report featuring responses from evangelical theologians. This final part features guest viewpoints and testimonies from Christians who have chosen to not engage in homosexuality and those who don't believe a gay lifestyle conflicts with the Bible.

Christopher Yuan – Placing My Identity in Christ, Not My Sexuality

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Unlike Matthew Vines, I was not raised in a Christian home and believed homosexual, romantic relationships were not sinful. I became aware of my attractions toward other men when I was nine but hid them until I came out in my early twenties while in graduate school pursuing a doctorate in dentistry. My mother was devastated but through this incident, she became a Christian. Although her initial response was rejection, after coming to Christ she could do nothing other than love her gay son.
After many years of running from God and rebelling against my parents, I was incarcerated for drug dealing and received the news that I was HIV+. I found a Bible in the trash can and began reading it. I confided with a prison chaplain who told me that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, and he gave me a book by gay historian, John Boswell.
Like Vines, I too wanted to reconcile faith with sexuality. With that book in one hand and the Bible in the other, I had every reason to accept Boswell's assertions to find biblical justification for homosexuality. But surprisingly, I felt Boswell's interpretations did not line up with the plain reading of Scripture. So I turned to the Bible alone and read every verse looking for positive support for romantic, homosexual relationships. I couldn't find any.
What changed my mind wasn't the six "clobber passages" which mention homosexuality. It was realizing that I had placed my identity and focus on the wrong things – my sexuality and pursuing a same-sex, romantic relationship. But God calls Christians to put their identity in Jesus Christ alone. God says, "Be holy, for I am holy." I needed to pursue a life of holiness, not heterosexuality or homosexuality.


After my release from prison, I attended Moody Bible Institute receiving a degree in the Bible with an emphasis in biblical languages and also completed a masters in biblical exegesis from Wheaton College Graduate School for a total of four years of biblical Hebrew and four years of biblical Greek. I am now an adjunct instructor of the Bible at Moody Bible Institute while pursuing a doctorate of ministry at Bethel Seminary (St. Paul, Minn.).
Exegesis (literally "to draw out") is the critical interpretation of a text requiring knowledge of the original language in which a text is written. Many begin with a presumption and superimpose their predetermined conclusion upon a text. This is eisegesis ("to draw in") which is the opposite of exegesis. Matthew Vines' entire argument hinges upon his presumption that the Bible doesn't specifically address loving, same-sex relationships. Although there is no direct mention, the Bible does condemn it in its universal prohibition against all homosexual sex and romantic relationships.
In Romans 1:26-27, Paul draws from well-known Greek philosophers and Hellenistic Jewish authors to universally condemn all homosexual sex and romantic relationships. "Unnatural" or para fusin is used by Plato, Philo and Josephus to refer to homosexual sex per se, not merely lustful, homosexual relationships. In addition, "nature" or fusis is found in Wisdom of Solomon, 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees. In each occurrence, fusis refers to nature (in general), a characteristic or origin – never as "customs" as Vines asserts.
Most importantly is Paul's appropriation of the Levitical condemnation against all homosexual sex and relationships in 1 Corinthians 6:9. Paul created a word "arsenokoitai" directly from Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible). The first half of Leviticus 20:13 from the Septuagint reads: "kai hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gynaikos." Any good Hellenistic Jew familiar with the Torah and the Septuagint would make an unmistakable connection between "arsenokoitai" and the universal condemnation of all homosexual sex and romantic relationships found in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
Even if Vines' presumption is true that the Bible doesn't specifically address loving, same-sex relationships, the absence of evidence is not evidence to the affirmative.
Finally singleness, voluntary or involuntarily, is not a curse. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 7 that singleness is good. This does not contradict Genesis 2:18, "It is good for a man not to be alone." New Testament scholar Barry Danylak states, "When Genesis 2:18 affirms that it is not good to live alone, marriage is given as a provision. But this does not imply that marriage was designed to be the sole provision for one's aloneness." Singles can develop deeper (but non-romantic) relationships which would otherwise be more difficult if married. Jesus, who was single, teaches in Mark 3:31-35 that family in the New Covenant extends beyond our immediate biological family.
Voluntary or involuntary singleness is not the same as being alone, nor is it "incalculable pain and suffering" as Vines states. Paul exhorts believers in 1 Corinthians 7 to find contentment in whatever situation we find ourselves in – whether voluntarily or involuntarily. Contentment should never be predicated upon another person, but solely in Christ Jesus and a life fully surrendered to Him.
Christopher Yuan (www.christopheryuan.com) is author of "Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son's Journey to God, A Broken Mother's Search for Hope." Yuan, who has a heart for those working through issues of sexuality and those living with HIV/AIDS, also teaches at Moody Bible Institute, speaks locally and internationally to youth, on college campuses, in churches and in prisons.



Tom Brock – A Pastor's Struggle With Same-Sex Attraction

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I have struggled with homosexual temptation most of my life. By the grace of God I have always been celibate but the struggle for me has been intense. Sadly, the battle was also with my own denomination. In my 22 years as a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America I spoke at church conventions for the Biblical standard of celibacy for those with same-sex attraction. Sadly, in 2009 the ELCA adopted a more liberal view and began ordaining practicing homosexuals. I have left the ELCA but I continue in my television ministry to uphold the truth that homosexual behavior is sin, and the fact that I struggle with this temptation does not give me license to practice the behavior.
This summer I testified before a hearing at the convention of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) as they debated whether to change the definition of marriage to include homosexual couples. I explained that I am a person who struggles with same-sex attraction but the last thing I want to see is the Church endorse a behavior that hurts people in this life and which excludes them from the Kingdom in the next (I Corinthian 6:9-11).
I stated: "Is it not arrogant to think that we are somehow more enlightened than all the Christians who came before us?" I believe it is safest to interpret Scripture the way Christians have understood it for 2,000 years and the solid testimony of church history is against homosexual behavior. The Biblical interpretation that has led some denominations astray – notably the ELCA, Presbyterian Church USA, the Episcopal Church in America, and the United Church of Christ – maintains that the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior per se, but only promiscuous homosexual behavior. As much as part of me – my flesh – would like to believe I can legitimately engage in homosexual behavior, the Bible remains a permanent obstacle. An objective reading of Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, Deuteronomy 22:5, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-11, I Timothy 1:8-10, Jude 6,7 makes clear that the Bible's condemnation of homosexual behavior is a blanket one. There is never the added caveat: But it is okay if you love each other.
At the Presbyterian convention, one pastor testified that the denomination should allow her to marry lesbians in her congregation because "If I don't I will hurt them." I responded, "No, to encourage them to engage in a behavior which will rob them of salvation, that is what will hurt them."
I was interviewed on Minneapolis radio about my struggle and the interviewer asked, "Pastor Brock, why don't you just go with this orientation as who you are." I responded, "I'm glad I didn't. I'd be dead. Many men my age who went into this lifestyle are dead." Some liberal Lutheran bishops I know believe they are being loving by affirming homosexual behavior. The truth is they are hurting people. As one old Lutheran pastor said, "They are nicing people right into hell." I can't tell you how grievous it was for me with my struggle to hear bishops endorse something that I knew was evil.
So what does one do if one suffers from same-sex attraction? I believe the answer is: fight. Nowhere are we told the Christian life will be easy. I once heard someone say "But God would never ask you to deny something so central to your make-up as homosexuality." I thought, "Why not?" If we believe in the doctrine of original sin – that we are all born sinners because of Adam's fall (Romans 5) – then indeed every Christian is called to battle the sin that is so central to our make-up. One often hears "But I didn't choose this." I can relate. I never consciously asked to have these temptations. But most alcoholics do not wake up one morning and say "I think I'll have a drinking problem." Kleptomaniacs do not say "I think I'll have a problem with shoplifting." We may not choose our temptations in life, but we do choose what we do with our temptations. To be tempted is not sin. Jesus was tempted in Matthew 4. What we do with temptation shows whether we are endeavoring to follow Christ. And, praise God, even if we do fall under temptation, there is forgiveness when we repent and turn to Christ.
What will help people who struggle with same-sex attraction? Of course, regular prayer, Bible reading and being in a good church, a church that has not compromised on this issue. But for most people struggling with same-sex attraction, the crucial key is accountability. I have been part of a Christian support group for those who struggle with same-sex attraction. If you google "Exodus International" you will most likely find a group in your area where you can join other Christians who have this struggle. Also very important for me are the weekly phone calls I make to my accountability partner who helps keep me on the straight and narrow.
Lastly, where does homosexuality come from? Is it nature (in the genes) or nurture (in one's upbringing)? I lean toward the latter but ultimately it does not matter. Wherever it comes from, we are called upon to follow Christ and say "no" to it. As our Lord Himself stated: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
Tom Brock was born in Omaha, Neb., and graduated from Bethel College in St. Paul, Minn., with a degree in Biblical and Theological Studies. He received a Masters of Divinity degree from Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn. He was ordained a Lutheran pastor in 1979 and has served congregations in Florida and Minnesota. He served on the board of reform groups attempting to bring Biblical renewal to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America before he left that denomination over their position on issues such as abortion, homosexuality and universalism. Pastor Brock for 24 years has had a television ministry which can currently be seen on DirecTV on channel 367 (World Harvest Television) Sundays at 8:30 Central Time. He also does guest preaching at churches. Pastor Brock is 59 years old and has been single his whole life. His TV program can also be viewed at pastorsstudy.org.


Justin Lee – Executive Director of The Gay Christian Network

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When I hit puberty and all my male friends began to "notice" girls, I didn't. Instead, I began to notice guys.
I didn't understand why this was happening. I was a committed Christian with a strong relationship with Jesus, wonderful relationships with both parents, and no history of abuse or trauma. How could someone like me have these feelings?
Confused, I prayed about it, focused on my spiritual walk, and trusted God to heal me and give me attractions to women. When I found out about so-called "ex-gay" ministries, I contacted them for support and advice. But even after many years of prayer, and with all my faith in God, my male attractions never went away, nor did female attractions ever develop.
This is, in fact, an incredibly common story. Most same-sex attracted Christians don't ever become opposite-sex attracted, even with faith, prayer, and therapy. When ex-gay leader Alan Chambers recently said that "99.9%" of people in his ministry didn't become straight, many Christians were shocked. Those of us who have been through these groups weren't.
Yes, I've met a few people in my life who tell me that trauma in their past, like sexual abuse, confused their sexual identity, and that therapy brought about a change in their attractions. But that's not how it works for the vast majority of us. Even if we never act on our feelings, we are still "gay" (that is, same-sex attracted), whether we want to be or not.
Some Christians think we shouldn't use the word "gay" to describe someone who is same-sex attracted and doesn't act on their feelings. But it's how most people use the word, just as we say "straight" for opposite-sex attracted people, even if they're single. It's not an identity; it's an adjective.
Eleven years ago, I founded an organization, The Gay Christian Network (GCN), for same-sex attracted Christians who remain devoted to Christ. We believe that lust and promiscuity are wrong, just as for straight Christians. But one question divides the GCN community: What is God's call for our lives? Some of us believe God calls gay Christians to lifelong celibacy. Others of us believe God blesses monogamous relationships for same-sex couples.
I used to be in the former camp because of Bible passages like Rom. 1 and 1 Cor. 6:9. What changed my mind was more than realizing that the practices being condemned in Bible times were different from the practices of today. No, for me, the deciding factors were about trying to read Scripture the way Jesus did in passages like Luke 14:5-6 and the way Paul did in Rom. 13:8-10 and Gal. 5:2. I also wanted to make sure I took a consistent approach to the Bible – considering the cultural circumstances in Romans 1 just as much as I did in passages like 1 Cor. 11:6 and Tit. 2:9. I prayed and studied these questions earnestly for years, all while remaining celibate myself. In the end, I came to the conclusion that gender shouldn't be the deciding factor of a relationship's sinfulness, but that things like monogamy and lifelong faithfulness should.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sincerely seeking Christ's will, but I am human and fallible. One thing I know for certain: The church has often failed to understand and support our same-sex attracted brothers and sisters – celibate or not. If we are the body of Christ, we must learn to listen to one another, even when we disagree, and do a better job of showing Christ's gracious mercy.
Justin Lee is the author of "TORN: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," coming Nov. 13 from Jericho Books (www.TornBook.com).


Haydn Sennitt – Pastoral Worker, Liberty Christian Ministries (Sydney, Australia)

When I became a Christian and sought to deal with my same-sex attractions (SSA), I found it very complex and frustrating. Some Christians told me I would simply go to hell for having SSA; others said I could be gay and Christian; others said that though SSA was not God's best for me, He cared for me and had a better plan for my future. I remember thinking to myself, "I wish Christians would make up their minds!"
So I read Scripture, that is, from God's own lips, to see what He said about this issue in my life. What I found was nothing more than astonishing. Jesus loved marginalized and misunderstood people and welcomed them into God's Kingdom (1 Cor. 6:11)! And when He encountered sexually broken people like myself, He talked with them in unfathomably intimate ways (John 4:1-26), protected them (8:3-11a), and called them to repentance (8:11b). He did not justify their carnal desires by saying they were born that way, but their acceptance into His grace was coupled with a better life – a new life to the full (John 10:10).
I knew the Bible said homosexuality was wrong and that was never a problem for me; when I was presented this truth by fellow church-goers I never felt like a self-loathing second-class citizen as a result. I discovered that the Bible had warning after warning about sexual[ity] of a predominantly heterosexual kind too (e.g. the accounts of Jacob, Samson, Solomon, Israel herself, and some women in the New Testament). In church, I found heterosexual men trying to overcome their own sinful desires and I was in good company, and much to their credit, some of those heterosexual men were able to guide me to develop a healthy sense of manhood.
This is not to say that church was perfect. After being rejected by some of my spiritual fathers on account of my SSA – one even called me a "freak" – I decided to act on my same-sex attraction and seek out sex with guys. I wanted love, ultimately, and to find a man (though eventually any man) to fill in me a gaping hole, which was the source of my SSA. What was that source? A broken, disconnected relationship with my earthly father that ached to be resolved. Yet the attempt was futile as I never found "the man" I wanted, and none of the gay men I met had ever come close to finding theirs. The gay men I encountered, rather, were very lonely, lost, and as aching for love as I was but had never found it. I had forsaken living water to make for myself a cup that could hold no water (Jer. 2:13, Judges 17).
Eventually, God revealed His fatherly, tender heart for me and even showed how many people in Scripture were fatherless and searching for a loving, heavenly Dad (e.g. Jacob, Dinah, Simeon, Levi, David, Saul, Absalom). With that realization I entered into a new "lease of life" with God and have been able to overcome SSA in many significant ways. I still have a journey to walk through, but as I surrender my thoughts to God and allow Christ to form my identity (2 Cor. 10:5), God is providing breakthroughs. While I never chose to have same-sex attraction I know it is not something God intended, it is not my true self, and it is destructive to act on those urges. I have a life to the full now with a wife and two gorgeous daughters who all, every day, teach me more about who God is like as loving Father.
Haydn Sennitt leads Liberty Christian Ministries, a ministry based in Sydney, Australia, that helps people coming out of homosexuality. He is 32 years old and is married with two young daughters, and is studying first-year theology at the Sydney Missionary and Bible College.


Janet Boynes – Change Is Possible
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My name is Janet Boynes. I am 54 years old and for 14 years I lived a false identity as a lesbian. As a child I was made fun of, and was physically and sexually abused. My brokenness led to rebellion against God. I ran away from God, but He pursued me. He called me out of homosexuality and transformed my life by His power and grace. I have been out of the homosexual lifestyle now for 13 years.
Under the banner of the "gay Christian" movement, many people are going to great lengths to twist Scripture and use unbiblical false teachings to suit their own desires and justify their sinful behavior. Although "gay Christians" might feel better about themselves when they surrender to sin and use the Bible to excuse their actions, they need to consider the question posed by author Paul Morris: "Am I interpreting Scripture in the light of my proclivity, or should I be interpreting my proclivity in the light of Scripture?"
Scripture is very clear that homosexual behavior is sin. Satan's enticing lies, however, tempt us to question Scripture. This goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden—"Did God really say?" Yes, God really said!
Genesis 2:24 states God's intent for human sexuality – "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother, and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." This is the standard by which we are to judge all sexual behavior.
Pro-gay teachings ignore this standard and disregard the warnings in Romans 1:24-27:
"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Today, the proponents of homosexual behavior are leading many off the cliff into the pits of "tolerance" and "inclusiveness." Their false teachings are leading many to fall for the lie that you can live a lifestyle of homosexuality, refuse to repent of it, and still have eternal life in heaven someday. They are sacrificing God's truth on the altar of deceit and buying into the mistaken notion that they can live lives pleasing to God without abandoning their sin.
Jesus says, "If you love me, you will obey what I command." He also says "to refrain from all sexual immorality." That goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.
First Corinthians 6:9-11 levels the playing field when it comes to sinful behavior: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
If we repent of our sin, however, God will forgive us and give us a new identity in Christ. He will walk with us through any temptations that may come our way.
We either exchange the truth of God for a lie, or we listen to God and choose to obey Him. We either surrender to sin, or we surrender to God. The choice is clear.
Janet's Testimony: I grew up in Norristown, Pennsylvania, a northern suburb of Philadelphia. I came from a strict and abusive family. The beatings I endured made me want to be strong, so that I wouldn't have to be weak and vulnerable to anyone. I began doing to other kids what had been done to me and earned a reputation as a tomboy and a bully.
When I was 13, the father of one of my sisters sexually abused me. I started doing drugs, smoking, and drinking alcohol to cope with all of the pain in my life, but everything I tried was empty.
Things got so bad that I left Philadelphia and moved to Minneapolis, Minn., and attended a Christian college. There I met a friend that would take me to church where I found my faith in God and the man that I thought I would marry.
Even though I was engaged to be married, I spent a lot of time with a female coworker, so much that my fiancé began commenting on it. I told him that it was nothing, but that nothing turned into something. One night I spent the night with my female coworker and we became sexually involved.
It was then that I started a journey that would last for many years and cause a lot of heartache for both myself and those around me. For 14 years I lived the lesbian lifestyle, moving from one relationship to the next. My old habits came back as well and I struggled in and out of treatment, even getting into trouble with the law. Throughout all of those years, I always knew that I would one day return to God, that He was calling me, but I wasn't ready to come back.
Finally, I met a woman who invited me to church. I joined a women's Bible study and began to feel God calling me out of the homosexual lifestyle.
I knew that I had to sever all ties with my old lifestyle in order to make a clean break, so I moved in with a family from our church. I stayed with them for one year, and for the first time, I was able to see how a family was supposed to function. God's love worked through that family and began healing many of my old wounds caused by my childhood.
It's been over 13 years since I was called out of the lesbian lifestyle. God has mended my broken heart and I am a new creation. My story is proof that it doesn't matter how far you've gone, or what you've done, God still calls, and He calls in love.
Janet Boynes ministers to others questioning their sexuality or who wish to leave a homosexual lifestyle through Janet Boynes Ministries (www.janetboynesministries.com). She also works to inform and challenge churches and society about the issues surrounding sexuality and teach how to minister to the homosexual community.


Dr. Ralph Blair – Same-Sex Marriage Is Compatible With a Serious Reading of the Bible
Since we all do – or should – change our minds on things over the years, it's silly to think that we'll always hold a position that now seems sensible to us. It's also silly to think that, once we've moved to another limb, everyone else is supposed to follow us out onto that limb right away.
I cannot have moved from my 1950s mainline Protestant background to the Fundamentalist separatism at Bob Jones University to involvement in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at a state university to Dispensationalism taught at Dallas Seminary to Reformed theology taught at Westminster Seminary to experience a liberal grad school at Southern Cal to full-time IVCF staff work at Penn to doing my doctoral research and dissertation on homosexuality at Penn State to directing a City University of New York counseling center and then into the private practice of psychotherapy with gay New Yorkers and launching Evangelicals Concerned for Christians who happen to be same-sex oriented and not gain perception and understanding I hadn't had. Yet, through it all, as an evangelical Christian who's publicly advocated for evangelical affirmation of same-sex couples since 1962, my anchorage has been the Gospel of God's grace: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself!" Nothing separates us from Love's Sacrifice!
Over the years I've seen evangelicals argue against, shun, separate from and expel other evangelicals over hairsplitting that each side insisted was "biblical." Earliest Christians faced the same problem. But some managed to agree to disagree among themselves on matters no less significant than the fourth and longest of the Ten Commandments, divinely revealed food laws, circumcision as an everlasting requirement of God's Covenant, etc. Peter and Paul didn't always see things alike. Paul and Barnabus had a fit over Mark and split up over it. Peter said some of what Paul wrote was hard to understand. If this was so with those who knew each other and spoke the same language within a common cultural experience, it shouldn't be strange when we, removed by two millennia, language and culture, can't all agree on biblical material that some now allege addresses phenomena that no ancient writer or reader would have comprehended, i.e., psychosexual orientation and same-sex marriage of peers. Evangelical scholars rightly caution against anachronistic projection of contemporary phenomena into an indecipherable biblical term here or an incidental or beside-the-point allusion there.
Evangelical apologist Alister McGrath observes that the Protestant idea that all Christians have the right to interpret the Bible by themselves is "Christianity's dangerous idea." It's led to negligent, careless, self-serving and bizarre readings of scripture. But, as with the Bible and slavery or racial segregation or voting rights for women and blacks or interracial marriage or fairness to women – and, now, fairness to those whose involuntary sexual intimacy need is same-sex oriented – consequences of misreading scripture are tragic. They're anything but the consequence of love that Jesus called disciples to live in identifying with the oppressed, the lonely and discarded.
Paul told Timothy to handle God's word properly, not as false teachers do who peddle it for profit. Lacking courage on gay issues today, antigay and pro-gay preachers tickle ears with what their congregations, denominations and boards expect, and woe to their careers if they should not comply. C. S. Lewis saw "much hypocrisy" here. He said that, "all the pother [against homosexuality] is neither Christian nor ethical," for, as he asked (in his day), "How many of those who fulminate on the matter are in fact Christians?" There's a squeamish factor to antigay prejudice.
Evangelical historian Mark Noll explains that pro-slavery preachers used explicit Bible verses (as antigay preachers do these days) while abolitionists had to rely on general biblical calls to love – "chapter-and-verse [over against abolitionists'] larger gestalt of scriptural sentiment. [Those who] defended the legitimacy of slavery in the Bible had the easiest task." And blacks were said to be loved while enslaved, while forbidden to marry and while barred from white churches because of what "the Bible said" then.
These historical examples should serve today's antigay rhetoricians as soul-searching warnings. Jesus said it would be by our love that we'd be known as his disciples. Barna research finds that we're mostly known for our antigay hectoring. Something's gone terribly wrong!
Dr. Blair, 73, is a psychotherapist in private practice in Manhattan. His doctorate is from Penn State and his master's from the University of Southern California. He also studied at Bob Jones University, Dallas Seminary and Westminster Seminary. In 1971, he founded The Homosexual Community Counseling Center in New York. In 1975, he founded Evangelicals Concerned. A Fellow of the American Orthopsychiatric Association, he's also a member of the American Psychological Association and the Evangelical Theological Society.



Kevin Hoksbergen – I Have Found Great Healing and Freedom

[Four] years ago, I was at a crossroads. I was living in a garage, stripped of everything: friends, money, family, security, direction, purpose and meaning. I found myself questioning where I was at, how I got there, and how I expected to get out. Only six months before, I had a great job, was surrounded by people I called my friends, had my own apartment, and a great boyfriend who I had been with for about 6 months. Then everything fell apart.
I was raised in a Christian, church going home where I was deeply loved and cared for. I was adopted, but always saw my parents as being mine, not ones who adopted me.
Attending a private Christian school was tough; I was a hyperactive child, not accepted socially or relationally by my peers. Their rejection left me hungry for acceptance. When I acted on my growing attraction to men, I felt complete; finally my need for acceptance was being met.
Growing up in church, I knew what the Bible said about homosexuality. However, this gave me no real reason to change and no way to enter into such a process, or so I thought. I was content in my life. I had gained popularity and acceptance among the local gay culture, and was free to be the man I thought and felt I was created to be.
Then my friends started to dwindle, even though I was spending all of my time and money trying to keep them close. I had begun drinking heavily, trying to escape the void in my heart that couldn't be filled. Because they rejected my lifestyle, I had also pushed all of my family away (they accepted me, but that wasn't enough for me).
Court dealings with a felony DUI charge, the loss of my apartment, and the breakup with my partner, brought me face to face with reality: my life was in shambles, not what I thought or dreamed it would be.
I remembered my upbringing in the church and what they said about homosexuality; I remembered the love God had for me. I decided to give Him one more chance to reach my heart.
I found a mentor who had also come out of homosexuality; he committed to walk through this process with me. He led me to Living Waters, a Desert Stream Ministries program that focuses on sexual and relational brokenness, including those struggling with same-sex attraction.
I did not go into the group to become heterosexual; I was searching for something to fill the void, and answers to the many questions in my heart. In the process, I began to understand how the rejection I received early in life played a part in my brokenness. I was also re-connected with my family.
I was closer than ever to God. The void in my heart was being filled with his grace and mercy, pulling me out of the hole I had dug for myself. As I began to align myself with the will of God and His word in my life, everything else started to fall into place and make sense. By facing my brokenness and allowing the Lord to do a deeper work in my heart, my wounds were healed, and my life was given purpose.
Getting to this place was not easy. It brought up resentment toward those who hurt me, shame of the detestable acts I had done, and feelings of unworthiness for the grace that Jesus was offering me from the Cross. In the midst of the pain, He was able to reach a part of my heart I never knew existed.
Though temptations still surface from time to time, I have found great healing and freedom from same-sex attraction. I completed Living Waters in 2009, and have attended the training to become a leader in the program. I am currently an intern with Desert Stream and have committed my life to walking in freedom, bringing the liberation and healing only God can provide to the hungry, lost and broken.
Kevin's Background: I grew up in a small town of Lynden, a couple hours north of Seattle. I was adopted at 1 day old and brought into the best family that God could have ever found for me. My childhood and time in elementary school was painful; the rejection I experienced contributed to my sexual brokenness.
After graduating from high school in 2004, I spent 6 years driving trucks and working in transportation. I lived an openly gay lifestyle for about 7-8 years. I then proceeded to move home to my parents home, where I attended a local community college. I was diagnosed with a congenital heart problem, which required surgery.
After two open heart surgeries, I moved to Kansas City for an internship at Desert Stream Ministries. Due to congestive heart failure, I had to return home for 7 months. I am maintaining physical and spiritual strength while continuing the internship under the close supervision of wonderful heart doctors. I plan to complete my internship and return home, where I hope to coordinate Living Waters groups all across the state of Washington.


Ron Belgau - Response to Matthew Vines [and What The Christian Post Got Wrong]
ron-belgau.jpg

I was reluctant to accept The Christian Post's invitation to respond to Matthew Vines for three reasons:
1. The Post asked me to write about 600 words in response to a 2,600-word interview, in which they had embedded a video of a nearly 10,000-word speech Vines gave defending his views.
I've written extensively about homosexuality in the past, responding briefly and in depth to the kinds of arguments Vines makes, sharing some of my own experiences, and offering some reflections on friendship and living in obedience to Christian teaching.
I know the territory well—well enough to know it would be impossible to offer a meaningful response to so much in so little space.
However, it is worth responding—even if only briefly—to Vines's claim that, because of the traditional teaching on sexuality, he is "uniquely excluded" from the possibility of experiencing love and companionship.
I understand and relate to his frustration. Growing up as a gay teenager, the only messages I heard from the church were negative. Most in our culture—including many Christians—uphold romantic and sexual love as the most important form of love. But God forbade the sexual and romantic love I desired. Was I, as Vines seems to fear, just to be left out in the cold?
When I was an undergraduate, I read Aelred of Rievaulx's treatise On Spiritual Friendship. This little book, and my own experiences of Christian friendship, have done a lot to change my perspective on chastity and loneliness.
Friendship, according to Aelred, is based on shared goals. He distinguishes between different kinds of friendship: carnal friendship, based on shared pursuit of pleasure; worldly friendship, based on mutual advantage; and spiritual friendship, grounded in shared discipleship.
Aelred insists that, contrary to the transitory nature of so many contemporary friendships, a friend in Christ "loves always" (Prov. 17:17). This is very different from the kind of casual friendship that is common in our culture (Facebook informs me that I currently have 563 "friends"). He also discusses how to select and cultivate lasting and Christ-centered friendships.
This helped me to see that obedience to Christ offered more than just the denial of sex and romance. Although Christian discipleship can be costly, it need not be lonely. And this insight has been confirmed in the lasting Christian friendships I have formed over the years.
2. In contemporary Christian culture, "defending the sanctity of marriage" almost always means one thing and one thing only: opposition to same-sex marriage.
I don't buy the interpretive gymnastics Vines uses to justify gay marriage. But Jesus clearly teaches that those who divorce and remarry, except in very limited circumstances, commit adultery. I am much more concerned by the widespread Christian acceptance of anti-Biblical standards for divorce and remarriage than I am by the more limited debate in favor of a similarly watered down stance on gay marriage.
I think Vines gets the Bible wrong on sexual ethics; but in contemporary Christian culture, he is hardly alone in doing so. So I am cautious about responding to Vines's arguments as if they somehow represent a uniquely serious challenge to Christian teaching.
3. Finally, the Post invited me to present my perspective as a Christian "who has struggled with same-sex attraction and believes the Bible calls homosexuality sinful." This is the wrong way to frame the issue.
First, "homosexuality" is a broad and ambiguous term. Unlike Vines, I believe that sex between two men or two women is always sinful. But there is a critical distinction between sinful actions, and sexual attraction to the same sex: this attraction is a source of temptation, but not, in itself, sinful.
Second, the Post uses the past tense when talking about struggles with same-sex attraction: one who "has struggled," with the suggestion that one does not struggle now. Every Christian experiences a variety of temptations, and like most Christians, I experience ongoing sexual temptations. However, we can choose how we respond to temptation. Christ himself was "tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin" (Heb. 4:15). Temptations are not an obstacle to holiness: giving in to them is.
I hope that this response—limited as it is—clarifies some concerns, and helps to refocus the discussion along more productive lines.
Much more can and needs to be said, both to adequately develop the points I have made, and to address the many points I had to skip. But I am already past my 600 word target, so this will have to do.
Ron Belgau received his undergraduate degree at the University of Washington. After working at Microsoft for several years, he is now in the PhD program in philosophy at St. Louis University, where he teaches Medical Ethics and Philosophy of the Human Person. He also spent one year at the University of Notre Dame as a research assistant at the Center for Philosophy of Religion. He has served on the steering committees for Bridges Across the Divide and the Seattle Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Ministry, as a group leader for Multifaith AIDS Projects, and as leader of the Gay Christian Network's celibacy support forum. For almost a decade, he has traveled around North America speaking about Christian teaching and homosexuality. His essay, "My Alternative Lifestyle" shared first place in the Catholic Press Association's "Best investigative writing or analysis" category in 2005. Many of his essays and speeches are available at CityofGod.net.
 

epostle1

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The question, "Is homosexuality a sin" is ambiguous. It is not a sin to be a homosexual, it is a sin to do homosexual things. Big difference. That is why I could not vote.

By developing an interior life of chastity, which is the universal call to all Christians, one can move beyond the confines of the homosexual identity to a more complete one in Christ.
http://www.couragerc.org/

WARNING. this is a Catholic web site
 

Groundzero

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What is all this crap about it's not wrong to be a homosexual, but it is wrong to do homosexual acts?!!

Seriously, are we going to say, it's not wrong to be an adulterer, but it's wrong to do adulterous acts? I think not!

Man has a fallen nature, and whether he likes it or not, he will have urges to do things that defy his Creator.
On the topic of this, 'born homosexual', I think it's absolute crap. I would attribute this 'attraction' to the indoctrination that many of our kids sadly face today. Where do I speak from? My own experience. Though I've never been in homosexual activities, or such, I have taken a brief walk on the dark side. As a result, there is a HOST of words whose meaning ;can be completely innocent, yet I always think of the sinister meaning. Once one is exposed to the filth and deprivation that our world is in, either unwittingly or willingly, they will develop though patterns, etc, that they WILL battle for the REST of their life.

From my own experience, I can truthfully say, that BECAUSE of the exposure I put MYSELF through, I now face a lifelong battle against the immoral and obscene thoughts that now plague me.

Homosexual 'orientation' has NOTHING to do with genes, or being born that way. We are shaped that way by what our peers push on us, or what we expose ourselves to. Once we've been exposed, we can't reverse it.
 

Strat

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Sex is man's most cherished form of rebellion against God,don't belive it,start a thread and ask if some other sin is a sin and see if it last for almost two years,32 pages and counting
 

epostle1

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Groundzero, I am so sorry. You suffered terribly in a dark time of your life and you said you still are. I believe God wants to heal you of those wounds. While I pray for your healing you should go and talk to a wise pastor and tell him what you told us. Let's fight the battle on those two fronts and victory is assured.

Homosexual orientation is intrinsically disordered. I explained how it is anti-Trinitarian on a recent Trinity thread somewhere.

The reason I posted the web site was to show that same-sex-attracted people need healing, not condemnation. Homosexuals are suffering, and they can get healing by living a life of chastity. Chastity is a virtue, it is not to be confused with abstinence. It is something that all Christians are called to.

Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals[sup]47[/sup] and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully.[sup]48[/sup] Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973. Study after study shows that male and female homosexuals have much higher rates of interpersonal maladjustment, depression, conduct disorder, childhood abuse (both sexual and violent), domestic violence, alcohol or drug abuse, anxiety, and dependency on psychiatric care than heterosexuals.[sup]49[/sup] Life expectancy of homosexual men was only forty-eight years before the AIDS virus came on the scene, and it is now down to thirty-eight.[sup]50[/sup] Only 2 percent of homosexual men live past age sixty-five.[sup]51[/sup]​

THIS IS A MISSION FIELD. Compassion, respect and sensitivity is what Jesus would do.




"Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357).​

However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359).​

Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).​

Homosexuals who want to live chastely can contact Courage, a national, Church-approved support group for help in deliverance from the homosexual lifestyle.​

Groundzero, I'm sure you skipped over the link for Courage. I would too if I were in your shoes.

WARNING: all sources are Catholic
 

Groundzero

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Wow. I may have given a rather acid start, but with all due respect, your statement, " It is not a sin to be a homosexual, it is a sin to do homosexual things", does not make sense at all. How can you be homosexual, if you don't do homosexual things?

And do you have to keep saying: warning, source is Catholic.?

You get offended when some dare to point out flaws in the RCC doctrine, yet even in topics which have nothing to do with the RCC, you bring it up. It's like you're purposely hunting round, trying to get people to react . . . .

No. I didn't skip over the link. I would think that someone as experienced as you in discussion would refrain from making such bold and cynical statements such as you've made.
 

lawrance

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I think genuine true Homosexuals can not do anything about it as i think there is something to do with how the brain is wired up as with hermaphrodites no one can abuse them for being one, as that would just be ridiculous.

But to others flaunting there disgraceful stupidity running around like dammed fools ranting and raving, i hate that type as they are a pox on the poor true ones.

If a heterosexual man ran around like a fool disrespecting women like a dog in my day, he was looking to be punched out. and a woman who ran around like that, we know what that is and no one should respect that at all.

But nowdays the PC mob push that poofter-ism as, "it is a right". and i think boy if that is not the work of Satan, i don't know what is. "Bestiality is the next step. and i have heard of this with people like that. and the OT tells us what God did to people like that.
 

Foreigner

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Wow, this was not what I was hoping for at all.

I thought that by posting the thoughts and opinions of those who are dealing with it in their own lives (even those I vehemently disagree with) that it would help us understand better where they are coming from, perhaps impact how we look at homosexuals overall, and be better prepared for civil discussions with homosexuals, both Christian and non-Christian.

I am beginning to regret the post.




.
 

Strat

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The issue of homosexuality has completely derailed modern christianity with many being willing to toss out all tradaitional concepts of biblical sin,repentenece and even salvation itself...homosexuality is mentioned along with many other sins,modern christianity has extarcted it from the list and given it special consideration and made excuses for it that would not be made for any other sins,would anyone realy attempt to excuse being a liar because they were born that way,a theif ? an adulterer ? and expect to be taken seriously...to even say that Homosexuality is a sin is an offense in many of today's modern christian circles.

The unrepentant homosexual will stand next to the unrepentent liar,adulterer, ect etc and both will be lost together forever.
 

aspen

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homosexuality is a sin
 

epostle1

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Wow. I may have given a rather acid start, but with all due respect, your statement, " It is not a sin to be a homosexual, it is a sin to do homosexual things", does not make sense at all. How can you be homosexual, if you don't do homosexual things?

Our sexual identity is determined by what we do, not by what we are. Let's consider the converse of the statement:

How can you be heterosexual, if you don't do heterosexual things?

Cheating on one's wife is a heterosexual thing, isn't it? Is the sin any less serious than a homosexual who engages in homosexual behaviors? A homosexual can be chaste, and eventually attain Christian perfection. I think it is wrong to deny a homosexual the things they need to do this. It is not condoning homosexuality, it is treating them the way Jesus would.

And do you have to keep saying: warning, source is Catholic.?

I do not like to waste screen space arguing with anti-Catholic bigots and they will most likely skip over sources anyway. I don't want them scouring my links looking for bats to beat Catholics with. It is impossible to educate a bigot unless the Holy Spirit is working on them. Prejudice is a sickness just like homosexuality is as far as I am concerned.

You get offended when some dare to point out flaws in the RCC doctrine, yet even in topics which have nothing to do with the RCC, you bring it up. It's like you're purposely hunting round, trying to get people to react . . . .

If I am hunting around trying to get people to react, then expose me with the quote feature. Don't blame me for making you think for yourself. There are no flaws in Catholic doctrine, there are only flaws in what people THINK Catholic doctrine is. I don't get offended with disagreement, I get offended with hate and lies from "Bible Christian" bigots.

No. I didn't skip over the link. I would think that someone as experienced as you in discussion would refrain from making such bold and cynical statements such as you've made.
Again, use the quote feature and we can discuss "bold and cynical statements" you accuse me of. I will continue to pray for you, even if you snap at me for doing so. I will give you every opportunity to stop throwing false accusations at me, start posting like a Christian, and avoid being tossed into my ignore bin.
 

brodav9

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When a person does something shameful they have guilt. They justify their conscience and do it anyway. The image of God is in us and so we have built in consciences to help us. The only place for the seed to go must be a clean place, if not it will be in the dirty place. The womb of a woman is scientifically known to be keeping that seed clean and sanitized. if the seed is put anywhere else it is made unclean, that is why this is called uncleaness. For a female to misuse the seed other than put in womb that is uncleaness..

just two of many verses.-- Lev. 7:21 and 10:10. where it shows unclean is a abomination.
 

aspen

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When a person does something shameful they have guilt. They justify their conscience and do it anyway. The image of God is in us and so we have built in consciences to help us. The only place for the seed to go must be a clean place, if not it will be in the dirty place. The womb of a woman is scientifically known to be keeping that seed clean and sanitized. if the seed is put anywhere else it is made unclean, that is why this is called uncleaness. For a female to misuse the seed other than put in womb that is uncleaness..

just two of many verses.-- Lev. 7:21 and 10:10. where it shows unclean is a abomination.

So you are against all forms of birth control?
 

martinlawrencescott

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I was going to say to the OP that it's a trick question. Homosexuality isn't a sin by default, however acts of homosexuality are sinful and would fall under one of 2 categories of sin, ignorance, and knowledge. If you don't believe you're sinning is one thing, but if you do but you don't care or do anyway, than it is another matter (In context of Jewish law). As Christians we are only allowed to judge within the church on these matters of sin and disobedience, so our jurisdiction would fall to Christian Homosexuals. This means that the homosexual has established with you verbally their relationship to God "I'm a Christian" works, but works are proven better. What a homosexual usually means is by nature (birth) they have a tendency to lust, attraction (whether physical/emotional), or stimulation in a non platonic form from the same sex (though the idea that homosexuals are created through a nurturing process I'm not strictly opposed to). Scripturally this makes sense since we are all born with a nature that is opposed to God. This is manifest differently in each of us. But the same principles apply to all Christians. How do I hear the voice of God? How do I obey scripture and to study and show -Myself- approved. No one person is defined by their sinful nature. No one person is. Nor are we defined strictly by our human nature (Our neutral tendencies given by God that can be used for or against Him). We are defined by God, and are images reflecting his beauty. If a homosexual Christian (or any Christian period) understands that, they aren't far off from every truth they've wanted revealed to them since they became aware that "-God is-" in the first place.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Groundzero,

Once we've been exposed, we can't reverse it.

This is what they want you to believe, but it's not true.


My most heartfelt advice to you is to prepare your heart thoughtfully (over a period of days if necessary), and make a very special event of coming into God's presence for the sole purpose of rejecting that identity. When you get up off your knees, you need to be able to believe that God is going to release you from all of it - every stain on your spirit and soul and mind, and that as you walk in the light with Him, His blood will cleanse you. As you abide in Christ, the devil has nothing in you. You are dead in Him, and now walking in newness of life.

It's true you've been exposed (through the beguilingness of 'ever learning' - the tree of the knowledge of evil) to corruption, but if you now continue eating from the tree of life, your whole being will be renewed in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:24.

There may be many attacks against your mind and body (spirit and soul) but you must keep the helmet of salvation firmly fastened and be ready to lift the shield of faith wherewith to quench the fiery darts of the enemy. Do not yield to the thought that you cannot be free and your mind cannot be renewed. It most certainly can be renewed, and will be renewed, as you fix your eyes on the Lord, and expect Him to deliver you.

I will be praying for you. God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us. Eph 1:19, 20, Eph 3:7... 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.




Hi martinlawrencescott,

No-one is born a homosexual. Many and varied influences put it into a child's head that he is not normal, but there is absolutely normality to be had in God, for those who genuinely commit to receiving the message of Romans 6.




Hi kepha,

God does not intend any man or woman to live in celibacy, unless He has called them to it. Matt 19:11, 12

The answer to abuse 1 Cor 6:9 is not abstinence, but right use 1 Cor 7:2

1 Timothy 4:1 - 3
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry,
 

Axehead

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Wow. I may have given a rather acid start, but with all due respect, your statement, " It is not a sin to be a homosexual, it is a sin to do homosexual things", does not make sense at all. How can you be homosexual, if you don't do homosexual things?

You are correct, GroundZero. Jesus looks at the heart and dealt with the heart by His death and resurrection. We cannot put New Wine (Spirit of God) into old wine skins (old, unregenerated heart). We need a New Heart.

Having other idols (gods) before God the Father is adultery. Therefore, one does not have to be committing the physical act as they can be participating in the spiritual act within their heart.

Adultery is not just a physical act with another human being. It takes place in the heart long before it is ever manifested physically and it is ALWAYS against God, FIRST!! Since we are in covenant with the Lord, adultery is any other person or thing (idol) that we love more than Him.

Jer_23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

God looks upon the heart and desires to give us a pure heart. Jesus wants us to know that this can be a reality for us in this life, now! His Spirit is able to do this. He can and will deliver and heal us from every unclean spirit if we turn from our idols towards Him with all our heart. This is not something that we can only hope for, we can have this now and God wants us to have a pure heart, clean conscience and peace with Him, now.

Mar_7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Jesus is not fooled by our outward "good" acts.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Jesus is able to see if our outward matches up with what is inside us.

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.


Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

What is within is of infinitely much more importance to the Lord Jesus than that which is without.


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