Where are the scriptures?
- Thread starter RichardBurger
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
No one has been able to show any scriptures as the OP asked. All other have done is to bury the OP in a lot of words that do not show any scriptures.
Where are the scriptures?
Many believe that Paul’s gospel of grace, that Paul says was hidden in God, was the same gospel that Jesus and the 12 Apostles preached. -- But where are the scriptures that support this idea?
1. Show where Jesus and the 12 said that people are not under the Law of Moses.
2., Show where Jesus and the 12 said that circumcision is no longer needed.
3. Show where Jesus and the 12 said that if you try to be justified by the works of the Law you have fallen from grace.
4. Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and it was prophesied. Where did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit baptized anyone into Jesus the Christ.
4 ideas that I don’t see as being supported by scriptures.
If you see scriptural proof please post those scriptures.
In fact the latest recording of Peter and James in Acts was their attempt to convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and they had killed Him.
Where are the scriptures?
Many believe that Paul’s gospel of grace, that Paul says was hidden in God, was the same gospel that Jesus and the 12 Apostles preached. -- But where are the scriptures that support this idea?
1. Show where Jesus and the 12 said that people are not under the Law of Moses.
2., Show where Jesus and the 12 said that circumcision is no longer needed.
3. Show where Jesus and the 12 said that if you try to be justified by the works of the Law you have fallen from grace.
4. Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and it was prophesied. Where did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit baptized anyone into Jesus the Christ.
4 ideas that I don’t see as being supported by scriptures.
If you see scriptural proof please post those scriptures.
In fact the latest recording of Peter and James in Acts was their attempt to convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and they had killed Him.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Murder is a sin. Governments kill people all the time and it is accepted - war, capital punishment, etc
Ah, okay...now I get it....ta!
It can be a bit of a touchy subject, whether a Christian ever has the right to take another life. Being a cop, or a soldier. Being neither myself, I think the only time I would be confronted with such a dilema, is if someone broke into my house with violent intentions. Quite apart from the natural inclination to protect my kids and whale the tar out of the intruder, our children are given into our keeping, care and protection by God. Sitting back and letting someone sin horribly against those God tells you to protect and cherish, is not loving...it's perpetuating sin. 'Course you'd still try anything else first..reasoning, unconsciousness!!
Getting back to the OP we see that the Apostles are trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah.
As shown, in these scriptures below, Peter is preaching that Jesus is the Messiah and they, the Jews, had Him killed. But in that they did it in ignorance they could still have the Messiah and His Kingdom “if they will only believe He is the Messiah (through His name). --- No where does Peter say that they can be saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross because that has not been revealed to them by God.
Acts 3:1-18
3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple;
3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms.
4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us."
5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them — walking, leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God.
10 Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
Preaching in Solomon's Portico 11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon's, greatly amazed.
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
NKJV
As shown, in these scriptures below, Peter is preaching that Jesus is the Messiah and they, the Jews, had Him killed. But in that they did it in ignorance they could still have the Messiah and His Kingdom “if they will only believe He is the Messiah (through His name). --- No where does Peter say that they can be saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross because that has not been revealed to them by God.
Acts 3:1-18
3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple;
3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms.
4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us."
5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them — walking, leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God.
10 Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
Preaching in Solomon's Portico 11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon's, greatly amazed.
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
NKJV
I find it truly amazing that some who profess to be Christians look for excuses to kill another human. Won't work on Judgment Day.
I dont look for excuses to kill, Ducky. Can't imagine the horror of doing it. But if you think that the very country you live in wasn't won by Christians fighting for it (and I do mean fighting), then you're not looking to well. It's the people, and even Christians who continue to fight...for you...to keep your country free of those who would park a bomb in your child's school yard. And don't forget, when you start saying that God would never stand for such 'wars' and such, that He often sent His people to slaughter the pagans...and I do mean slaughter....down to the very animals.
I would never, never seek to do any harm to another human, but if you honestly think you would sit back and allow an intruder walk into your home and rape/murder your wife, children etc...well, I think that there would be more than one sinner in your house that night.
And if I am ever called to make such a difficult decision, and it turns out, come Judgement Day, that it was not an action my Lord condoned...then I will happily face a rebuke from Him over it...but seriously Ducky...you wanna smack me down over a statement I made regarding the protection of my kids? Back off and take a good long look at your self.
It is truly sad that professing Christians are so filled with unbelief that God won't/ can't protect them and theirs.
Heb 13:6 ESV
[font="Arial]So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”
[/font][/color]
[font="Arial][color="#001320"]Do you pray this prayer daily?[/font][font="Arial] [/font]
[font="Arial] [/font][/size]
[size="3"][font="Arial][color="#001320"]Mt 6:13[/color][/font]
[font="Arial][size="3"]And lead us not into temptation, but [/size]deliver us from evil.
[/font]
[font="Arial]
[/font]
It is a crying shame that most when replying to a thread only want to make a big show of who is this or who is that. In other words they refuse to talk about the OP that started the thread and just throw accusations at others. Why don't they grow up.
If you don't have anything to offer about the OP then why are you here on this thread?
If you don't have anything to offer about the OP then why are you here on this thread?
I was simply replying to what was already being discussed. Why didn't you jump them before I joined in?
I don't think I addressed my reply on this thread to you. it was generally said to all. Why did you take it personally?
I will add this.
In the scriptures below we see that Peter was teaching that the healing of the lame man was accomplished in and by the “””name””” of Jesus Christ. Even in this chapter there is no mention of the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.
Peters actions were based on God’s covenant made with Israel. Not on Paul’s gospel of grace that was given to Paul By Jesus.
Acts 4:1-10
4 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them,
2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening.
4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes,
6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked,"By what power or by what name have you done this?"
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:
9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
NKJV
Peter certainly believed that all of Paul's letters were Scripture. So there is no conflict between the four Gospels and what Paul taught.
2 Pet 3 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2 Pet 3 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Ducky, I do believe that God can and does (at times) do anything. I certainly do not live my life in fear...I know God is completely in control, come what may. But I also know...from scripture as well as observation, that God does not stop sinners from sinning. People sin horribly against others all the time, including Christians. Spare a thought for the persecuted....God does not stop them being tortured and killed. He gives them glorious hope and peace that despite it they will prevail and even if killed they will end up with him.
Jesus said that if any of us would follow Him we must take up our cross daily. You do remember what the cross entailed, yeah? It was not easy and it was not un-painful. But enduring it in God's name it eventually defeated sin. We do not escape sin, the evil other perpetrate against us, but we may be assured that if we hold to faith, we will triumph in the end.
I am quite tired of you accusing me of doubting God and doubting scripture when all I have ever said is that God is sovereign. You know...sovereign, having complete authority and control over everything....I trust Him completely with my life, my soul. I know He wants what is best for me, and I recognise that what I feel that might be could very well be different to what He knows is best for me. But more...I know it's not about me...I'm here to bring glory to Him, that I may do His will, not my own. I submit to His will, whatever it may be, with love and acceptance.
Richard, I have answered you OP...several times actually. I'm sorry you somehow seem to miss my answer and only see me insulting you. Once again I reiterate that I never intended to insult you. It's just very hard to discuss the idea that you have put forward, without saying the word you.
I will leave this thread now, as obviously there is little point to me persevering, and it seems to be distressing you. Ducky will probably have a scathing reply, but I already know there is no reasoning with him, so I will leave it all alone. I wish you well, and I pray that you will be able to step back and not take everything so personally. There will always be disagreement in hermeneutic and exegetical studies, and as long as it is not compromising closed hand issues (who Jesus is and why He came etc) we should welcome discussion that may lead to a greater understanding of the truth.
I can't see why you would say that Paul and Peter were teaching the same thing.
No where in the first 4 books of the N.T. and the accounts of Peters words in Acts is the Law of Moses done away with, nor the teaching that we are not under the Law (dead to the Law). Nor do I see Peter preaching anything but the "Gospel of the Kingdom at hand (the promised kingdom of the Jews). All of Peters preachings were attrempts to get Israel to accept Jesus as their Messiah so that Jesus could set up their promised kingdom. No where does Peter teach we are placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. No where in Peter's words do we see him saying that Jesus' shed blood on the cross pays for a mans/womans sins so how can anyone possibly say Paul and Peter were saying the same things.
This thread is asking you to provide Scriptures in the first 4 books of the N.T. and the teachings of the 12 that say we are no longer under the Law of Moses. -- You have not done that. The scriptures you quoted only say that Paul's gospel was hard to understand for the Jews because they were under the Law of Moses.
My hope is that you can see, that since Jesus and the 12 never rescinded the Law of Moses, Paul's gospel of grace was truely hidden in God and revealed to him by Jesus for us today. Today, a person can not be saved by a blended gospel of law and grace. People can only be saved by placing belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross; His shed blood. The covenant program for Israel has been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles has ended
Many of God's people suffer and die because of sin and unbelief of His promises, not because it's His will. That's a convenient excuse though. His promises are ALWAYS true.
Psalms 121:7 (ESV)
7 The LORD will keep you from all evil; he will keep your life.
I'm just saying there is no conflict.
John 1:17 (ESV)
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
I don't dispute any of that. I was wondering if you were attacking Paul's writings. I don't think you are. You can correct me if I'm wrong : )
They are telling the story of Jesus! Who is Jesus? The MESSIAH! Nowhere does it say that Peter was advocating the Law! Rather, he stated in verse 18 that the things that the prophets had prophesied had been FULFILLED! In Acts 2:38, Peter is not preaching the Law! He is preaching Grace! He is preaching what Jesus told him to preach! Since you insist on making such a big thing about Paul, could I point out that Paul wrote the majority of the New Testament!? Perhaps that's why the other apostles are 'silent' on the subject!
Grace didn't come by Paul, it came by JESUS!
Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Exactly right. For all the fuss Richardburger is kicking up about this issue, there is NO conflict whatsoever!
I am trying to get people to see that the gospel of the kingdom was under the Jewish convenant with Abraham. That covenant has been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. We are not under that covenant. Therefore to mix the gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus and the 12 with the gospel of grace will not save anyone. You can't mix law with grace. If you do you pervert both.
But I can see that many just will not hear it.
Similar threads
