The answer of hell and its origins

face2face · Sep 21, 2022

Dropship said:
What's there to understand?
The ancient jews called it 'Sheol' long before Jesus arrived..
WIKI- "Sheol, a subterranean underworld where the souls of the dead went after the body died"

Ha you just used wiki...I'll let you delete that before others see it!

Behold · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
We know this to be true of course because of its use in speaking back to OT events. The Bible often use's the imagery of eternal fire in order to represent God's anger with sin, which will result in the total destruction of the sinner in the grave.

F2F

You are confused.

The sinner is not in the grave. The sinner's body is in the grave, but the sinner's spirit, is in hell.

Man is body, soul, spirit., not just body.

You live IN your body, but you are a spirit being, made by a Spirit Being, =
God is A Spirit.".

Your body will die, but you the spirit in the body, the real you....will never die.
You will continue to exist somewhere.

Hell or Heaven.

You get to choose.
If you want to go to hell, then just die like this........ JOHN 3:36

face2face · Sep 21, 2022

I'll put some references up @Dropship to show you how sheol is used in the Bible

If I make my bed in (Heb., sheol) hell thou (God) art there. Psalms 139:8.
Though they dig unto (sheol) hell. Amos 9:2.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in (sheol) hell. Psalms 16:10.
And shall deliver his soul from hell (sheol). Proverbs 23:14.
And he made his grave (sheol) with the wicked. Isaiahs 53:9.
Yet shall he be brought to the grave (sheol). Job 21:32.
Delivered my soul from the lowest hell (or “the grave” see Marg.—Heb., sheol).

You are better using the Bible to show context and prove this eternal place of torment.

I'm 100% convinced sheol just means grave and the translators think so also.

F2F

face2face · Sep 21, 2022

Behold said:
You are confused.

The sinner is not in the grave. The sinner's body is in the grave, but the sinner's spirit, is in hell.

Man is body, soul, spirit., not just body.

You live IN your body, but you are a spirit being, made by a Spirit Being, =
God is A Spirit.".

Your body will die, but you the spirit in the body, the real you....will never die.
You will continue to exist somewhere.

Hell or Heaven.

You get to choose.
If you want to go to hell, then just die like this........ JOHN 3:36

I'm repeating myself now...we are looking for you to show your understanding of hell from the OT. If you can't best just to say so and when we get to the NT we can look at your verses.
Thanks
F2F

face2face · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
I'll put some references up @Dropship to show you how sheol is used in the Bible

If I make my bed in (Heb., sheol) hell thou (God) art there. Psalms 139:8.

F2F

@Dropship

Lets for a minute assume sheol is as you Wiki quote states. Would you teach that God is in this place of eternal torture also?

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
Okay so show us where "sheol' is used to explain this place of eternal fire.

"All his sons and all his daughters sought to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father bewailed him" (Genesis 37:35)

Sheol was a place where garbage was burned-
WIKI- 'The Greek word Gehenna, originally derived from the "Valley of Hinnom," came to be used in the New Testament as "hell" or "the fires of hell," and expresses the place of final judgment and punishment for sinners.
In the Old Testament, this valley south of Jerusalem became a place of child sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 16:3; 21:6; 23:10). Later, the Jewish people used the valley as dumping grounds for garbage, dead animal carcasses, and even executed criminals. Fires continually burned there to consume the refuse and dead bodies'

So Jesus used it as an analogy for hell to get the message across to people that it's a fiery naughty step where worthless souls are slung..

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
@Dropship
Lets for a minute assume sheol is as you Wiki quote states. Would you teach that God is in this place of eternal torture also?

I never try to 'teach' people, I simply give them a goody bag of bible verses which they can sort through at leisure..

face2face · Sep 21, 2022

Dropship said:
I never try to 'teach' people, I simply give them a goody bag of bible verses which they can sort through at leisure..

I'll take this as an opt out of Psalms 139:8 then.
In a weird kinda way the thread is making progress.

Your leap of logic as to how gehenna is used both in the OT and NT has no foundation at the moment...in fact we could confidently say sheol (grave) and gehenna (burning rubbish dump) represents the permanency of the grave.

The other issue you have is it's commonly taught that a tormented person in sheol of gehenna cannot come out that place but the Bible states otherwise.

Hosea 13:14 confirms this - "I will ransom them (God's people) from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death".

You can see that sheol, grave and death are all related.

I'm happy to allow the Word to be the teacher.

F2F

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
Keep in mind @Dropship the use of sheol is just another word for the grave so finding Biblical content to prove the grave is this place of eternal burning will be impossible.
"Let the wicked...be silent in the grave (sheol)" as per Psalms 31:17 - so they will not be screaming in agony right?
I mean if they are being burnt :smlhmm:

Sheol in Genesis is a nasty underground place where naughty souls go, and it's irrelevant whether souls are burning there, or are trapped in a never- ending power cut, or have to suffer nonstop Elton John songs or endless repeats of Eastenders, or even worse locked in forever at a Democrat convention, they're all equally hideous fates..

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
I'll take this as an opt out of Psalms 139:8 then.
In a weird kinda way the thread is making progress...

No offence mate but some people have accused you of being a JW, so perhaps if you confirmed or denied it I'd know exactly where you're coming from..

A JW bigshot on the net once told me that I'm "ignorant, a fable-spinner, talks drivel, a deceiver, racist, self-deluded".
He'd previously said that he'd joined the JW's many years ago as a young man but later left them, then later went back and married a JW girl and stayed with them for the rest of his life, so I jokingly said "I bet you only went back to get in her knickers", and that remark is what must have sent him ballistic..

O God please make me funny (sniffle)

RLT63 · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
@teamventure as discussed, lets look at this subject of Hell and its origins.

Allow me to quote from Thomas Hobbes who uses some colorful language in describing hell.

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire: that is to say, the estate wherein no man can be without torture, both of body and mind, after the Resurrection shall last for ever; and in that sense the Fire shall be unquenchable and the torments Everlasting: but it cannot thence be inferred, that he who shall be cast into that fire, or be tormented with those torments, shall endure, and resist them so, as to be eternally burnt, and tortured, and yet never be destroyed, nor die

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1904), 335.

The first point we see is this fire has been prepared:-

By who?
Where is the account of this prepared fire?
Does Genesis describe such a place for the dead/doomed?

The second point:- is this fire allowed to burn for eternity somewhere in God's realm:-

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

You will find with all commentaries the absence of Old Testament text to support their ideas.

So the first question for our board given we have asked a number of questions already, is where do we go in the OT to find such knowledge?

Further to this, do you believe people are there now? or is this to take place after the resurrection?

I wanted to make my position super clear from the outset.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

"Hell" in the Old Testament

Deu 32:22

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2Sa 22:6

The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8

It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6

Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psa 9:17

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 16:10

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 18:5

The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 55:15

Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psa 86:13

For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psa 116:3

The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psa 139:8

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pro 5:5

Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Pro 7:27

Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Pro 9:18

But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Pro 15:11

Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Pro 15:24

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Pro 23:14

Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 27:20

Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa 5:14

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 14:9

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:15

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 28:15

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 57:9

And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Eze 31:16

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Eze 31:17

They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Eze 32:21

The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Eze 32:27

And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amo 9:2

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jon 2:2

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab 2:5

Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
Ha you just used wiki...I'll let you delete that before others see it!

I've got the gift of perception mate, I can tell if something's rubbish within seconds of looking at it, so I know most Wiki stuff is okay..

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
For thou wilt not leave my soul in (sheol) hell. Psalms 16:10.
And shall deliver his soul from hell (sheol). Proverbs 23:14.
I'm 100% convinced sheol just means grave and the translators think so also.

Wait a minute Charlie, if you think hell is fitted with a swing door like a western saloon to let people out, you're arguing with Jesus again who says there ain't no such door!
Careful, the naughty step...

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
@Dropship
Lets for a minute assume sheol is as you Wiki quote states. Would you teach that God is in this place of eternal torture also?

Why should God want to be in hell?
He's washed his hands of the people in there..

Dropship · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
..The other issue you have is it's commonly taught that a tormented person in sheol of gehenna cannot come out that place but the Bible states otherwise..

Mate, I bet your nanny's very cross with you for saying people can get out of hell!
Look up the word "eternal" in a dictionary..

Jesus said- "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 25:46)

PinSeeker · Sep 21, 2022

Dropship said:
Genesis 3:19-
"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return"
Yes, ALL christian and nonchristian bodies turn to dust, but christian's souls live on in heaven, and jesus-rejecters souls live on in a very nasty place..

Right, in spirit, and for the duration of this age. But in the age to come (eternity), the spirits of previously deceased Christians and non-Christians will be reunited with their physical bodies. This is the general resurrection at the end of this age, upon Jesus's return. Some will be resurrected to eternal life, and others to judgment (John 5:28-29). Then the Judgment will ensue, after with non-Christians will be sent away, and certainly to a very undesirable place. Then all things will be made new (not new things), as God says in Revelation 21... this is the new heaven and new earth, finally made one, we God dwells with us forever.

But again, regarding this age, Christians will be like the thief crucified with Jesus on His right; the very day that we physically die, our spirits will be with Him in paradise. The spirits of non-Christians, on the other hand, will be like that of the rich man in Jesus's parable in Luke 16, enduring an existence of torment, desiring to escape and cross over to where Abraham is but unable to, and desiring that others be warned to avoid the same fate.

As for "eternal torture," the reality of hell, whatever it really looks like, will not be physical or mental torture, as if someone ~ or Someone ~ is actually torturing anyone. But in no way does that make it any more appealing or any less terrifying; it will be a tortuous existence, an internal anguish that will last for eternity ~ day and night forever, as Revelation 20 says.

Grace and peace to all.

Bob Estey · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
@teamventure as discussed, lets look at this subject of Hell and its origins.

Allow me to quote from Thomas Hobbes who uses some colorful language in describing hell.

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire: that is to say, the estate wherein no man can be without torture, both of body and mind, after the Resurrection shall last for ever; and in that sense the Fire shall be unquenchable and the torments Everlasting: but it cannot thence be inferred, that he who shall be cast into that fire, or be tormented with those torments, shall endure, and resist them so, as to be eternally burnt, and tortured, and yet never be destroyed, nor die

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1904), 335.

The first point we see is this fire has been prepared:-

By who?
Where is the account of this prepared fire?
Does Genesis describe such a place for the dead/doomed?

The second point:- is this fire allowed to burn for eternity somewhere in God's realm:-

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

You will find with all commentaries the absence of Old Testament text to support their ideas.

So the first question for our board given we have asked a number of questions already, is where do we go in the OT to find such knowledge?

Further to this, do you believe people are there now? or is this to take place after the resurrection?

I wanted to make my position super clear from the outset.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

I would say hell are the circumstances we find ourselves in as the result of our sin. For example, if you rob a bank, you'll probably find yourself in jail - probably not where you wanted to be.

face2face · Sep 21, 2022

RLT63 said:
"Hell" in the Old Testament

Deu 32:22

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2Sa 22:6

The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8

It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6

Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psa 9:17

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 16:10

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 18:5

The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 55:15

Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psa 86:13

For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psa 116:3

The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psa 139:8

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pro 5:5

Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Pro 7:27

Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Pro 9:18

But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Pro 15:11

Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Pro 15:24

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Pro 23:14

Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 27:20

Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa 5:14

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 14:9

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:15

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 28:15

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 57:9

And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Eze 31:16

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Eze 31:17

They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Eze 32:21

The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Eze 32:27

And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amo 9:2

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jon 2:2

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab 2:5

Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth

Credit for at least looking in the OT!
Now are you able to construct an origin story from these verses which shows all the detail which is in your mind when you think of this fiery place of torment.
Who prepared it?
What happened?
Who rules over it?
Where does God warn of it's punishment to the Children of Israel?
Use the Torah to show where God instructed the wicked their fate was this place of torture.
Look forward to your response.
F2F

RLT63 · Sep 21, 2022

face2face said:
Credit for at least looking in the OT!
Now are you able to construct an origin story from these verses which shows all the detail which is in your mind when you think of this fiery place of torment.
Who prepared it?
What happened?
Who rules over it?
Where does God warn of it's punishment to the Children of Israel?
Use the Torah to show where God instructed the wicked their fate was this place of torture.
Look forward to your response.
F2F

I just take Jesus' word for it. I'm not restricted to the Torah

Blue Dragonfly's · Sep 21, 2022

Behold said:
Is Hell a real place?

Jesus spoke more about Hell then He did about Heaven.

And..."Hell is created for the Devil and his angels".... So, is the devil real? Fallen angels"? Then Hell is absolutely not some garbage dump outside the gates of the Old City.

And who will be with the Devil and His angles. ?
Jesus told us..
Its these..."you are OF your FATHER, the Devil".... so, that is all the unbelievers, as to be an Unbeliever, is to the spiritual child of the Devil.
"OF YOUR Father".

Jesus says, "you must be BORN AGAIN".....= so that you change Spiritual Fathers.., and GOD becomes your Father.

God will not be letting sons/daughters of the Devil into Heaven, and there is NO 2nd Chance to be born again in Hell, as there is no CROSS in Hell.
The CROSS was raised on EARTH.. Jesus died on EARTH for your sin, so, you will take that forgiveness while you are BREATHING on earth, or you will face the end result of not being saved, of dying a CHRIST REJECTOR, after you die.

There are those who hold to the serpent seed doctrine that would say Jesus' admonition there was a reference to those men actually being of that seed.

Would Christians love God if they weren't afraid of Hell?

The answer of hell and its origins

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