Just heard about the rosary....

Hi Dragonfly

dragonfly said:

Hi Mungo,

One of the largest difficulties I'm finding in this discussion, is your willingness to give extra-biblical teaching at least as much, if not more, credence, than scripture itself. That is hugely problematic (to me), when considering whether to get involved in this thread.

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I’m sorry if what you call extra-biblical teaching is causing you a problem. As I’m sure you are aware Catholics do not accept the man made teaching of sola scriptura. This was a novelty introduced by the reformers. It has not been the praxis of the Catholic (or Orthodox) Church for 2,000 years. It was not the practice of the early Church. It not only has no biblical support but is contradicted by scripture. So I do not accept that I should restrict myself to this false practice.

dragonfly said:

Gz has already brought to your attention the biblical definition of queen of heaven and you don't seem to see that there really is a queen of heaven who was not the mother of Jesus Christ. I have no idea how you can rest with calling Mary 'queen of heaven', when the associations of the queen of heaven are so unhealthy.

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Jeremiah gave no definition of “queen of heaven”. He condemned the practice of the women of the time honouring a false “queen of heaven".

Let me rephrase the point I was making.

IF Mary is the true Queen of Heaven, then giving her honour is not wrong because some people 3,000 years ago gave honour to a false Queen of heaven. I gave the comparison that worshipping the true God is not wrong because some people 3,000 years ago worshipped false gods.

Why do you think that point is not valid?

You may object that I have not proved that Mary is the true Queen of Heaven to which I respond that I was not trying to prove that. I was responding to the point about Jeremiah.

If you want me to through all the arguments that Mary is the Queen of Heaven then I will do so.

dragonfly said:

No. The new Eve is the Church, who was born of water (the word) and blood. John 19:34, John 3:5, 6.

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John 19:34 does indeed refer to the birth of the Church and in a corporate sense the Church is the New Eve. But Jesus is an individual and the New Eve is an individual – Mary. As in other examples in the Bible an individual can also represent a corporate body (e.g. Israel). We parallel Mary and Jesus because they are individuals (not that Mary is equal to Jesus).

The New Adam and the New Eve are like bookends in salvation history. Eve was made (“born”) from Adam just as the New Adam was born from the New Eve.
“for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God” (1Cor 11:12).

In this context we could say.
As Eve was made from Adam, so the New Adam is now born of the New Eve.

There are many arguments to show that Mary is the new Eve.

If you want to discuss either of these and for me to show the biblical arguments I am happy to do so, but I suggest we start with either Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mary as the New Eve. Both topics will have enough side issues of their own.

John 3:5,6 is about baptism and nothing to do with the New Eve.

Mungo

Hi MR ROSENBERGER,

She is just like one of us, but for being great as all will call her blessed.

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Here are the scriptures which refer to her being blessed:

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women. 29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

42 And she [Eisabeth] spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


This is all fine. I do not doubt she was blessed, nor do I doubt that a sword pierced her soul. Luke 2:35 This confirms her humanity.


But, any doctrine which attributes to Mary, divine or god-like qualities, is error.

The fact that she was in the upper room with over a hundred other disciples, waiting for 'the promise of the Father', shows that she had no divine qualities of her own. She, like the other disciples, was waiting to be endued with power from on high. Luke 24:49 As such, it shows she had the same frailties as other members of mankind, and was as in need of the power of the Holy Spirit as Peter, John and the others.


The Queen of Heaven is a goddess - an occult entity - and it is either a great shame to associate Mary with such a term 1 Sam15:23 , or, it is a Freudian slip which is lost on the majority of decent Catholics. I say 'the majority', because there are occultists in every visible church organisation, who have no interest in truth, no interest in being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, God's Son, whose sole purpose is anti-Christ.

The other problem with the term 'Queen of Heaven' Jer 7:18, Jer 44:17 - 19, 25 is that 'she' is attributed to a created thing. We all know that devils need a body to dwell in - Legion, pigs and many inanimate objects. Let me quote Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? Exo 34:12, 13, 14.

Bearing in mind the occult element which seeks to pervert the worship of God to the worship of self or created things, Paul explains:

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[In other words, (see following verses) knowing truth, but not obeying truth, is 'unrighteousness', which will be judged adversely by God.]


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made - his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened..... 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



The other difficulty which seems glaring to me, is that the blood of Jesus Christ applied to our souls, making us fit to receive the Holy Spirit for ourselves, thus gives us access to the Father Himself. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. 1 Tim 2:5 and we need to other intermediary than Him, through the Spirit. Eph 2:18, Eph 3:12, Rom 5:1, 2, See John 14 - 16:24 - 26 - prayer in the Spirit.

Lest any reading this should think I'm exaggerating how seriously off track spiritually, a religious leadership can become, remind yourself of what happened in Israel, by reading what God showed his prophet in Ezekiel 8, and remember, the word 'imagination' usuaully means stubbornness against God's way: there's only one exception to this in scripture: 1 Chron 29:18. God will not spare idolaters. Rev 19:20


It is from these (and many other passages of scripture) that we receive a clear understanding of the separation God makes between Himself and His creation - the boundaries which He has set for our own well-being. Exo 19:23. There is a great parallel between Exo 19 and the day of Pentecost, when one remembers that mountains have heads. The boundary in Exo 19 was removed by the blood of Christ.

When Father sent tongues of fire on the heads of the gathered disciples, He was finalising the meaning of the veil in the Temple having been torn from top to bottom. Now, not only was Immanuel (God with us) with men, He was in men. This is the proper meaning of baptise.... to immerse in such a way as to fill, as when a baby is first immersed in air, and begins to breathe.

He is due all honour and worship and praise. No doubt about. His creation is to serve Him. There are countless verses which support His creation serving/worshipping Him, and we are to avoid falling into the error of worshipping any other than Him. Rev 4:10, 11, Exo 15:11

There is no spiritual safety of a man's soul, beyond scriptural boundaries. By all mean honour Mary within those boundaries.

Dragonfly,

dragonfly said:

The Queen of Heaven is a goddess - an occult entity - and it is either a great shame to associate Mary with such a term 1 Sam15:23 , or, it is a Freudian slip which is lost on the majority of decent Catholics. I say 'the majority', because there are occultists in every visible church organisation, who have no interest in truth, no interest in being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, God's Son, whose sole purpose is anti-Christ.

The other problem with the term 'Queen of Heaven' Jer 7:18, Jer 44:17 - 19, 25 is that 'she' is attributed to a created thing. We all know that devils need a body to dwell in - Legion, pigs and many inanimate objects. Let me quote Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? Exo 34:12, 13, 14.

Bearing in mind the occult element which seeks to pervert the worship of God to the worship of self or created things, Paul explains:

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[In other words, (see following verses) knowing truth, but not obeying truth, is 'unrighteousness', which will be judged adversely by God.]


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made - his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened..... 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



Lest any reading this should think I'm exaggerating how seriously off track spiritually, a religious leadership can become, remind yourself of what happened in Israel, by reading what God showed his prophet in Ezekiel 8, and remember, the word 'imagination' usuaully means stubbornness against God's way: there's only one exception to this in scripture: 1 Chron 29:18. God will not spare idolaters. Rev 19:20


It is from these (and many other passages of scripture) that we receive a clear understanding of the separation God makes between Himself and His creation - the boundaries which He has set for our own well-being. Exo 19:23. There is a great parallel between Exo 19 and the day of Pentecost, when one remembers that mountains have heads. The boundary in Exo 19 was removed by the blood of Christ.

When Father sent tongues of fire on the heads of the gathered disciples, He was finalising the meaning of the veil in the Temple having been torn from top to bottom. Now, not only was Immanuel (God with us) with men, He was in men. This is the proper meaning of baptise.... to immerse in such a way as to fill, as when a baby is first immersed in air, and begins to breathe.

He is due all honour and worship and praise. No doubt about. His creation is to serve Him. There are countless verses which support His creation serving/worshipping Him, and we are to avoid falling into the error of worshipping any other than Him. Rev 4:10, 11, Exo 15:11

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Your suggestion that Catholics are occultists is grossly insulting and made without any foundation.

This is one of the most insulting posts I have ever seen directed at Catholics and I have seen plenty.

I’m sorry you have descended into the gutter like this.

I thought you wanted a reasonable discussion but I see you are just another-catholic bigot.

You disgust me and your misuse of scripture to insult a fellow Christian is an insult to God, though perhaps with posts like the above I should not regard you as a Christian.

Mungo said:

Dragonfly,




Your suggestion that Catholics are occultists is grossly insulting and made without any foundation.

This is one of the most insulting posts I have ever seen directed at Catholics and I have seen plenty.

I’m sorry you have descended into the gutter like this.

I thought you wanted a reasonable discussion but I see you are just another-catholic bigot.

You disgust me and your misuse of scripture to insult a fellow Christian is an insult to God, though perhaps with posts like the above I should not regard you as a Christian.

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I think you are really overreacting to dragonfly's post.

The Queen of Heaven is a goddess - an occult entity - and it is either a great shame to associate Mary with such a term 1 Sam15:23 , or, it is a Freudian slip which is lost on the majority of decent Catholics. I say 'the majority', because there are occultists in every visible church organisation, who have no interest in truth, no interest in being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, God's Son, whose sole purpose is anti-Christ.

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Did you not see that dragonfly said "there are occultists in every visible church organisation"?

The post has merits and why can't you have a reasonable discussion over all the points?

I have been in discussions where Jesus was called some terrible, terrible things and no one reacted so emotionally as you are doing.

Why all the emotion when Mary is talked about? If she is what you say she is, then you don't need to come to her aid/rescue. Just like no one needs to defend Jesus.

Axehead

Axehead said:

I think you are really overreacting to dragonfly's post.



Did you not see that dragonfly said "there are occultists in every visible church organisation"?

The post has merits and why can't you have a reasonable discussion over all the points?

I have been in discussions where Jesus was called some terrible, terrible things and no one reacted so emotionally as you are doing.

Why all the emotion when Mary is talked about? If she is what you say she is, then you don't need to come to her aid/rescue. Just like no one needs to defend Jesus.

Axehead

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I would like to have a decent discussion but it appears dragonfly does not.

The post is clearly aimed at catholics however you try to pretend otherwise.

"The Queen of Heaven is a goddess - an occult entity - and it is either a great shame to associate Mary with such a term 1 Sam15:23 , or, it is a Freudian slip which is lost on the majority of decent Catholics."

I explained twice how Mary as Queen of Heaven does not contradict Jeremiah and on the second occasion asked dragonfly: "Why do you think that point is not valid?"

I also offered "If you want me to through all the arguments that Mary is the Queen of Heaven then I will do so."

And later in the same post "If you want to discuss either of these and for me to show the biblical arguments I am happy to do so, but I suggest we start with either Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mary as the New Eve."

They were offers of a decent debate which dragonfly chose not to follow, but instead chose instead to launch a nasty attack calling Catholics, and thereby me personally, an occultist, having no interest in the truth, whose sole purpose is anti-christ.

As to Mary, you might ask what it it about Mary that causes some Protestants to lash out at Catholics like this.

Mungo said:

Hi Dragonfly



I’m sorry if what you call extra-biblical teaching is causing you a problem. As I’m sure you are aware Catholics do not accept the man made teaching of sola scriptura. This was a novelty introduced by the reformers. It has not been the praxis of the Catholic (or Orthodox) Church for 2,000 years. It was not the practice of the early Church. It not only has no biblical support but is contradicted by scripture. So I do not accept that I should restrict myself to this false practice.



Jeremiah gave no definition of “queen of heaven”. He condemned the practice of the women of the time honouring a false “queen of heaven".

Let me rephrase the point I was making.

IF Mary is the true Queen of Heaven, then giving her honour is not wrong because some people 3,000 years ago gave honour to a false Queen of heaven. I gave the comparison that worshipping the true God is not wrong because some people 3,000 years ago worshipped false gods.

Why do you think that point is not valid?

You may object that I have not proved that Mary is the true Queen of Heaven to which I respond that I was not trying to prove that. I was responding to the point about Jeremiah.

If you want me to through all the arguments that Mary is the Queen of Heaven then I will do so.





John 19:34 does indeed refer to the birth of the Church and in a corporate sense the Church is the New Eve. But Jesus is an individual and the New Eve is an individual – Mary. As in other examples in the Bible an individual can also represent a corporate body (e.g. Israel). We parallel Mary and Jesus because they are individuals (not that Mary is equal to Jesus).

The New Adam and the New Eve are like bookends in salvation history. Eve was made (“born”) from Adam just as the New Adam was born from the New Eve.
“for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God” (1Cor 11:12).

In this context we could say.
As Eve was made from Adam, so the New Adam is now born of the New Eve.

There are many arguments to show that Mary is the new Eve.

If you want to discuss either of these and for me to show the biblical arguments I am happy to do so, but I suggest we start with either Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mary as the New Eve. Both topics will have enough side issues of their own.

John 3:5,6 is about baptism and nothing to do with the New Eve.

Mungo

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jeremiah never mentioned 'false'. He merely stated 'the queen of heaven'. That says it all to me.

The new Eve? I would like to see some actual base for this idea, cause I've heard of the new Adam, but never the new Eve. :/

Let me give an example of our greatest example: Jesus.


Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Jesus was given the title good, and what did he do with it? There is none good but one, God! Jesus INSTANTLY redirected the praise to God. If that's what Jesus did, then why the heck are we praising Mary?! We should be praising God!!!!!

As for sola scriptura, lol, I never even knew about that term, but ok. You don't believe that the Scripture alone is infallible? So what else is there that we can rely on? Because according to Scripture, there is God's word, and then there is God's word!!!!

Groundzero said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jeremiah never mentioned 'false'. He merely stated 'the queen of heaven'. That says it all to me.

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Do you think there was a real queen of heaven in Jeremiah’s time?

Groundzero said:

Let me give an example of our greatest example: Jesus.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Jesus was given the title good, and what did he do with it? There is none good but one, God! Jesus INSTANTLY redirected the praise to God. If that's what Jesus did, then why the heck are we praising Mary?! We should be praising God!!!!!

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"Seeing from a distance a fig tree in leaf, he went over to see if he could find anything on it. When he reached it he found nothing but leaves; it was not the time for figs. And he said to it in reply, 'May no one ever eat of your fruit again!'” (Mk 11:13-14)
Should we go around cursing fig trees because Jesus did?

“He made a whip out of cords and drove them all out of the temple area” (Jn 2:15)
Should we be going and driving people out of temples with whips because Jesus did?

But most of all Jesus obeyed God's commands including 'honour your father and your mother'.
Since Jesus honoured his mother should not we also honour his mother?

Groundzero said:

As for sola scriptura, lol, I never even knew about that term, but ok.

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I find it difficult to believe that you have never heard of one of the most basic of Protestant doctrines.

Groundzero said:

You don't believe that the Scripture alone is infallible? So what else is there that we can rely on? Because according to Scripture, there is God's word, and then there is God's word!!!!

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There is God’s written word and there is God’s spoken word.

Since Jesus never wrote anything the apostles only had the OT as God's written word.

Does that mean the OT was superior to anything Jesus said?.

MR ROSENBERGER said:

Mary is not dead.
Mary is the one that 'all will call the blessed.'
Satan tries to take Mary out of the picture and when he does it's to try destroy Jesus Christ as it's an other little trick of his.
I use to be against the RC Mary stuff to as it made me angry for years but i know now just who she is now and it's not the rubbish that some people think at all.
The virgin point is mainly about being pure! of sin, it's not just what some grubby narrow minded low life thinks point of view at all. she was a virgin after Jesus was born to ? so it not really so much about what a stupid gruby brat thinks it is at all.
7 children is not right at all. it's only one child of marys with his 'step' brothers and sisters and that's a fact.

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Where do we get this information from the Bible that Mary was sinless?

Mary knew she needed to be saved from her sins as she called Jesus her Savior. Luke 1:47

Axehead said:

Where do we get this information from the Bible that Mary was sinless?

Mary knew she needed to be saved from her sins as she called Jesus her Savior. Luke 1:47

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To cause Mary to be born without original sin and its stain (i.e., immaculate), God infused sanctifying grace into her soul at the moment of her conception. Mary was given the special privilege of being conceived without original sin (with sanctifying grace) and without the damage or stain such a conception causes. This was done to equip her with the graces needed to make her a fit Mother for the Redeemer and for the Church.
Mary’s preservation from original sin was accomplished in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive work. Therefore, Jesus is also Mary’s Savior. Because of what he would do on the cross, this grace was given to her early. The gracious character of this blessing is also the reason that Anne and Joachim did not need to have it: It was a grace God could give to anyone at any time. He chose to give it to Mary to make her a fitting mother for his Son.
This grace was not given to Anne and Joachim because it was not fitting for them to have the same precise graces as Christ’s own mother, who bore him in her womb. No doubt they were very blessed in many ways, but not as blessed as their daughter.

neophyte said:

To cause Mary to be born without original sin and its stain (i.e., immaculate), God infused sanctifying grace into her soul at the moment of her conception. Mary was given the special privilege of being conceived without original sin (with sanctifying grace) and without the damage or stain such a conception causes. This was done to equip her with the graces needed to make her a fit Mother for the Redeemer and for the Church.
Mary’s preservation from original sin was accomplished in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive work. Therefore, Jesus is also Mary’s Savior. Because of what he would do on the cross, this grace was given to her early. The gracious character of this blessing is also the reason that Anne and Joachim did not need to have it: It was a grace God could give to anyone at any time. He chose to give it to Mary to make her a fitting mother for his Son.
This grace was not given to Anne and Joachim because it was not fitting for them to have the same precise graces as Christ’s own mother, who bore him in her womb. No doubt they were very blessed in many ways, but not as blessed as their daughter.

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Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.

“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” (2Pet 1:3-4).

This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.

“Be holy because I am holy”.
How holy is God? – 100%

“Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect”
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%

We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.

When Gabriel greeted Mary he said Chaire Ketcharitomene, which is often badly translated as Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.

She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?

As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

As Mary herself said “he who is mighty has done great things for me” (Lk 1:49)

The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary’s womb.

I honour my Queen who was greatly honoured by her son and sits at his right hand; the Son who is the “King of kings and Lord of lords”, who himself sits on the throne of David and whose kingdom has no end.

You can believe this or not. You can honour Mary or not.

I think I’m done with this thread.

You know, I'm by no means a trained debater, neither am I a great learned man or such. In fact, I've never done any extra studies other than high school. But praise Jesus that I can think clearly.

Of all your replies to my questions and statements, Mungo, you have not provided any base or such for the doctrine of Mary. In fact, your answers border on plain ridiculous. I probably sound harsh, but I can't help but state what I read. For heaven's sake, if you have made an error, admit it. I've had to do it quite a couple of times, even on this site. It's no use to keep budging on. To give an example, you stated, verbatim: "Do you think there was a real queen of heaven in Jeremiah’s time?" You just read a verse stating that God's people were making him mad because they were worshipping the QUEEN of HEAVEN! How dim do you want to get?! For that matter, how dim do you think I am? Of course there was a queen of heaven. In the minds of the heathen there was, and in the minds of some people there still is-and God is enraged when HIS people offer sacrifices and praise to this queen of heaven. I could rip apart your entire reply to me, because it's that paper-thin it's not funny, but I really couldn't be bothered. I believe with all my heart that I have stated more than enough. So this is me signing out on this thread.

Please, yes, it's probably a stinging reply, but for heaven's sake, heed the warnings. It doesn't matter how many people agree with a doctrine, if it flies in the face of God, it's NOT correct. Praise belongs to God alone.

May all glory, praise, and honour go to the ONE and only God, because he alone is worthy.

The Holy Bible disagrees with you Groundzero;

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary
.
John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water
.
Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

neophyte said:

The Holy Bible disagrees with you Groundzero;

Really? Let's see what your 'proof' consists of. Btw, I don't believe in making the Bible agree with me. I believe in agreeing with the Bible.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary
.

Gosh. Do I really have to go over this? Read on and perhaps you'll actually understand what Jesus was saying!
Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
That disciple took her to his home. I believe that it's tradition that Joseph had died, therefore, Jesus, as was the custom of his day, was looking after his mother, being the eldest of the family. When he died, he still was looking out for others, even in his agony. He told this disciple to whom he was very close, that she was now his mother, in other words, to look after her.
As for the Motherhood . . . can we perhaps stick to that which is sound? Not some wild assumption? Your thinking reminds me of the heathen religions, where there are female and male deities, because in man's finite mind, gods must have a beginning! We read of the Fatherhood of God, and we read of his manifestation to us, and how that manifestation is our brother, but we do NOT read of a motherhood.


John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us.

Significant? For who? Mary was just a human being. Heck, if she was really the Queen of Heaven, don't you think she would be superior to the Son?! Mary told the servants to do whatever Jesus bid, because Mary understood that Jesus wasn't just some man, he was the Almighty God robed in a body of flesh! I can just as easily take this verse and say, as a mere mortal, Mary tells us to do whatever Jesus tells us.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water
.


Yes, Jesus did. Why, he even allows us to intercede on the behalf of other people! If you really want to go to this area, there are PLENTY of examples of mediators in the Bible! Abraham, Lot, Moses, etc. Do they occupy some position of deity? NO! There is ONE God, and there is none beside him. As to responding to his mother's request, let's take this another step. I hate it when people select bits and pieces to suit their doctrine. If you want to take this slice of cake, you get all this as well: what about the blind man who asked Jesus to heal him? what about the lepers? and all those other people? were they some affiliate in the deity, some special position, just because Jesus complied with their request? or moreover, their FAITH? I think not. Every point here that you use in support of Mary being the Queen of heaven, rings hollow. There is no deduction, except that Mary had faith!



Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.


Umm, have we heard of figurative speech? Probably not, or else I wouldn't be reading ridiculous assumptions like these! Where does it say Mary is the queen?! Read through the rest of that chapter and then tell me what you think! Who are the virgins? What about the king's daughter? Is the queen somehow the daughter of the king?! How about the daughter of Tyre? You take one verse from a chapter to back your doctrine, but does it really back it? No. It just leaves a host of unanswered questions. Not to mention, even if there were no questions, who is that queen anyway? There's nothing there to link it to Mary. As I've stated before, the woman in Revelation, if she really is linked to a real woman, would most probably be Eve. And don't give me any of that bull about Mary being the 'new' Eve, cause unless it's in Scripture, I don't give a damn.


1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.


So in other words, you are stating that Jesus does the same as David? Excuse me, but Jesus never sinned. So we've settled right then and there, that even though the man Christ Jesus was of the line of David, doesn't necessarily mean that whatever David did or had in common applies to Jesus.


1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.


Do we actually have Scripture that shows that Mary intercedes on behalf of us eternally? Or is that just another wild conjecture?


1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.


I don't know whether I should laugh because this is so funny, or cry because it's so pathetic. Once again, WHERE in Scripture, do we find this supposed homage being paid to Mary? Listen to the words of Jesus:

Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.


Blah, blah, blah. Another point goes sailing off into the blue. Really? You expect me to swallow this as the truth? You decide that the spiritual realm is set out just like the physical? And by some great conjecture, that Mary is FOREVER at the right hand of Jesus?!

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

And yet another useless point which proves nothing.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.


One last grasp at a straw. Thank goodness. I don't really care about the history of queens in the Bible. There is a queen of heaven, but she ain't good, and she ain't in God's good books. To worship the queen of heaven, no matter what nice name we may give her, is still provoking the Lord God of Israel to anger. The Lord does NOT change. That is why we are still breathing, but it's also going to mean a judgement, and what God didn't approve of 3,000 years ago, is still going to be disproved of in 300,000 years.
Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

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Ok, I did say that I was finished here, but I will take the time to reply to this post. My replies are in the quote in red.

Groundzero said:

Ok, I did say that I was finished here, but I will take the time to reply to this post. My replies are in the quote in red.

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neophyte,

I wasn't going to post again in this thread but I just want to warn you as you seem to be new to this.

With some protestants (Groundzero & Axehead spring to mind) these threads are not about scripture; they are not about what Catholics actually believe; they are not about valid or invalid arguments.

They are just an opportunity to bash Catholics whatever they say.

Even if you produce a scripture quote by Jesus saying "My mother is the Queen of Heaven" (or whatever the topic is) they will either just ignore it or descend into scoffing, mockery and insults.

Scripture that you draw inferences from is not enough for Catholics. It's good enough for Protestants of course but they demand more of us.

That's not to suggest that all Protestants are like that. Far from it. There are some who are genuinely interested in the points you raise.

Mungo


P.S. You won't get a straight answer to your questions either.

In fact you will be lucky to any answer at all.

neophyte said:

To cause Mary to be born without original sin and its stain (i.e., immaculate), God infused sanctifying grace into her soul at the moment of her conception. Mary was given the special privilege of being conceived without original sin (with sanctifying grace) and without the damage or stain such a conception causes.

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-- Mungo, it is unsupported, unsubstantiated, non-scriptural claims such as this that are the reason that Catholic doctrine is not taken seriously.

Foreigner said:

-- Mungo, it is unsupported, unsubstantiated, non-scriptural claims such as this that are the reason that Catholic doctrine is not taken seriously.

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The key to understanding all these graces is Mary’s role as the New Eve, which the early Christians along with the first early Fathers proclaimed so forcefully. Because she is the New Eve, she, like the New Adam, was born immaculate, just as the First Adam and Eve were created immaculate. Because she is the New Eve, she is mother of the New Humanity (Christians), just as the first Eve was the mother of humanity. And, because she is the New Eve, she shares the fate of the New Adam. Whereas the First Adam and Eve died and went to dust, the New Adam and Eve were lifted up physically into heaven.

As I said, "unsupported, unsubstantiated, non-scriptural....."

I see it as in line with, as if we take Mary out of the picture, then Satan has the upper hand and can make Jesus out to be something he is not. as Mary has a foundation and this is tried to be trodden under foot.

Another thing prot's misunderstand is they have a nasty habit of pushing lies against the RC position, as in trying to elevate Mary way above what is true RC doctrine.

When some prot's push rejection of Mary being a Saint and then rave on that they are Saints.

Are the prots making out that, Mary being a Queen is like equal to King ? this is worthy of being a worldly persons perspective. but the RC position is one of a Spiritual one, as i see it.

And this is a big problem with prot's as they are so wrapped up with worldly perceptions, that they disregard totally the Spiritual position.

Mary is a mother to all Christians i would think.

Mary is definitely the 2ND Eve - she is the first to say yes to Christ and receive Him.