Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

iamlamad said:

Let's look together, readers included:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light..

Rev. 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Sorry,, I don't agree. There are TWO times these signs are shown. the first time is the warning for the DAY as shown to us in Joel 2 and Rev. 6. Here the moon appears as blood, while the sun is darkened. The next time these signs are seen is about 7 years later, as the sign for the coming of the Son of man. We see this sign also shown in Joel 3. Did you never read Joel 3 to see both these signs written in Joel?

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Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Why did you leave that part out?

Revelation 6:12-13
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Probably the same reason you didn't include verse 13 here. The moon being darkened and turned to blood can very well be the same thing, and it seems very plausible that this is the case when you look at how every other event matches up. Are the stars going to fall twice also? Have you ever seen the moon during a total lunar eclipse?

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnVWZj69zRo

Was the moon darkened? Did the moon also turn a reddish color?

"Paul was reiterating to the Thessalonians what Jesus told his disciples on the Mount of Olives."

I don't think so. But perhaps you could show us two verses that show you this...one from 2 thes. and one from Mat. 24?

One thing I do see in Mat 24 that others seem to overlook, is: "but the end is not yet." Much of the signs people think are IN the 70th week Jesus tells us are only birth pains.

I am sorry, I cannot find in Matt. 24 where Jesus said there would be a falling away from the faith.. Can you show us that verse?

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Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, in both of his letters, about things that would happen in the last days.

Matthew 24:10-14
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Other uses of that same Greek word:

Matthew 13:20-21
The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Matthew 26:31-35
Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away (different form of the same word) on account of me, for it is written:

“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”
Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.”
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”
But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same.

Mark 4:17 uses the same word as Matthew 24:21.
Mark 14:29 uses the same word as Matthew 26:33.

2 Corinthians 11:27-29
I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin,and I do not inwardly burn?

Readers. shall we let PAUL tell us what he was really going to discuss here? What does He say? His THEME is the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to meet Him. This is what Paul is going to discuss. Thanks, TWC, but I am going with what PAUL said he would discuss. Therefore, any theory of his meaning MUST INCLUDE something about the gathering.

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When he says "that day will not come", what makes you think that he's only talking about the coming of Jesus and not the gathering also? Again, if you look back at Matthew 24, there IS a gathering AT the second coming.

Readers, I did not write this, PAUL wrote it! So HOW can we know? Just simply UNDERSTANDING the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit when HE caused Paul to write, "and NOW YOU KNOW..." I believe even a 5th grader could understand Paul's meaning....somewhere in the previous verses HE TOLD US who the restrainer was. That is why he wrote, "and now you know..."

Verses 6-8 tell us that what is restraining MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY before the man of sin can be revealed.
In verse 3-B the restraining IS TAKEN out of the way. Therefore, pure logic demands that the restrainer was removed in 3-A.

Paul then is clear, the meaning of the Greek word, "apostasia" has to mean the restrainer - indeed, it can mean nothing else.
But is it not just any apostasia, it is THE apostasia....a very significant one. This is why I am sure the first translators had it right as "departure." Did Paul talk about as SIGNIFICANT departure of something that could possibly restrain evil? OF COURSE, Paul talked about the rapture of the church!

As I said, case closed. We we get to heaven and ask Paul, He is going to tells us "Of course I meant the gathering of the believers, that was the theme of the passage," or at least words to this effect. It is the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit. Lamad

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You're still assuming that "apostasia" is a literal, physical departure. Just because the word can be translated as "departure" and CAN mean a spatial departure, doesn't mean that the word DOES mean this. An end-times falling away from the faith is clearly mentioned in more than one place in the New Testament, and it just so happens that the only other occurrence of "apostasia" is the same type of falling away.

John S said:

Iamlamad - Hello Again.

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HELLO from China!

lamad like I said, has to add a resurrection for the pre-trib rapture.

Not so with the post -trib rapture, the Bible plainly says the Lord will return at the sounding of the last trump at the second coming and the first resurrection just so happens to be at the same time. Coincidence !!!!! I don't think so

TWC said:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Why did you leave that part out?

Revelation 6:12-13
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Probably the same reason you didn't include verse 13 here. The moon being darkened and turned to blood can very well be the same thing, and it seems very plausible that this is the case when you look at how every other event matches up. Are the stars going to fall twice also? Have you ever seen the moon during a total lunar eclipse?

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnVWZj69zRo

Was the moon darkened? Did the moon also turn a reddish color?


Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, in both of his letters, about things that would happen in the last days.

Matthew 24:10-14
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Other uses of that same Greek word:

Matthew 13:20-21
The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Matthew 26:31-35
Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away (different form of the same word) on account of me, for it is written:

“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”
Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.”
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”
But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same.

Mark 4:17 uses the same word as Matthew 24:21.
Mark 14:29 uses the same word as Matthew 26:33.

2 Corinthians 11:27-29
I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin,and I do not inwardly burn?


When he says "that day will not come", what makes you think that he's only talking about the coming of Jesus and not the gathering also? Again, if you look back at Matthew 24, there IS a gathering AT the second coming.


You're still assuming that "apostasia" is a literal, physical departure. Just because the word can be translated as "departure" and CAN mean a spatial departure, doesn't mean that the word DOES mean this. An end-times falling away from the faith is clearly mentioned in more than one place in the New Testament, and it just so happens that the only other occurrence of "apostasia" is the same type of falling away.

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I was only concerned with the signs in the sun and moon. Joel did not mention the "stars" falling, only that they would "withdraw" their shining. And Joel includes this in both chapters 2 and 3. We both know that stars cannot fall into the earth. So what did John see? Did He see Angels coming to earth? Or did he see fallen angels coming to earth? Jesus may have seen something similar:

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Why did Satan fall at that moment? It was when the 70 were sent out, performing the same miracles Jesus did. Satan's headache was beginning...he had to see for himself. Just my opinion...but I digress from the theme. The question is a good one: does this sign prove that the signs happen only once as you propose? I don't think so. Joel sets a total and complete different context for the two, which context fits perfectly with the rest of scripture. For example, Joel's first signs are the warning for the DAY. So are the signs at the 6th seal. And we then see the Day of the Lord begin shortly after with the first trumpet. It will be difficult to deny this, for Joel confirms the Day has started with the first trumpet burning up the trees and grass. I think then, our disagreement will be WHEN does the Day of the Lord begin? I think there is conclusive proof that it begins with the first trumpet judgment. It is the beginning of God destroying the earth and the sinners in it.

Yes, it is possible the moon darkened and the moon to blood could be speaking of the same thing....but is that the intent of the author? We have the very same author showing us these signs in the moon TWICE, as in Joel 2 and again in Joel 3. And the context for the two are totally different. The first is the coming Day of the Lord, while the second is the coming of Our Lord. As much as some may want to make these two the same, they are not, and God the Holy Spirit caused writers to differentiate between them. If they were the same, certainly the writers could have written that the moon turned to blood in both cases. If some people wish to see only one, they have that choice, but when these things happen for real, they will find these signs in the sun and moon will happen twice.

Jesus did say many would become offended. But WHEN? It is during the birth pains, or the entire church age. Would this rise to the occasion for Paul to use THE apostasia - a very special apostasia? I don't think so. People have been falling away as seeds on rocky ground since Jesus ascended. But has a very large percentage of believers suddenly turned away at the same time? Not that I have see any evidence of at all. Today we have seen a big decline in church membership, but it is mostly because dedicated Christians have died and had no children to follow in their steps. Do you have personal friends that were hot for Christ, but have turned away? I don't know of any. Perhaps there are some somewhere. However, I don't think even this argument fits the context. Jesus was talking to JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age, not the church age. Ask yourself, how many Jews or sons of Abraham today are following God? It is a very very very small percentage. We can see the few at the wailing wall. It seems there was a MAX exodus from the faith concerning Jews. You have noticed, it is the 70th week of DANIEL, not the 70th week of Paul. Many people try to find the church in the Olivet discourse, yet the church was not even in existence at that time. I firmly believe the 70th week was and is for the JEWS. It has nothing to do with the church at all. That is one reason why the bride is removed.

Sorry, I cannot get youtube in China.

"When he says "that day will not come" First lets make sure we understand that this phrase was added by the translators: it seems Paul left it out. Perhaps it was what he meant to write. Of course if he meant to include this, he was referring right back to what he had just written...."we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."

Paul's argument is simple: the day of the Lord cannot possibly come until the restrainer is taken out of the way and the man of sin revealed. Again I ask, can evil restrain evil? I say no. A kingdom divided will not stand. It must be some kind of GOOD that is restraining evil.

Now suppose Paul had taught them that the gathering was the end of Day of the Lord. Can you explain then why they were so upset they wrote to Paul? They should have known, all they have to do is wait a white and their rapture will come. Sorry, I cannot see them being upset by this. On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come BEFORE the day of the Lord, and then someone came along and told them they were already IN that Day, of course, that is a good reason why they would be very upset! And if we look back to 1 Thes, chapters 4 & 5, we see that Paul taught exactly that: the rapture would precede the day and in fact be the trigger for the Day. This theory of the rapture coming IN the day of the Lord does not stand up to the scriptures.

Yes, there IS a gathering in Matthew 24, but it is a gathering from HEAVEN. Sorry, cannot be the rapture, which gathers from EARTH.

TWC said:

You're still assuming that "apostasia" is a literal, physical departure. Just because the word can be translated as "departure" and CAN mean a spatial departure, doesn't mean that the word DOES mean this. An end-times falling away from the faith is clearly mentioned in more than one place in the New Testament, and it just so happens that the only other occurrence of "apostasia" is the same type of falling away.

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Does translating apostasia as a falling away do justice to the entire passage? Or does a departure of the church fit the context better? Again I ask, can evil restrain evil? Is this the author's intent? Make no mistake, whatever apostasia was meant to be, it MUST BE the restrainer being taken out of the way to fit the context of this passage. And by the way, does a falling away (from something - apostasia does not include what) fit the words, "taken out of the way" better than the departure of the church, which is most definitely taken out of the way by the power of the Holy Spirit? No, I don't think so. If falling away is meant, then WHAT is the falling away from? You can only guess it means a falling away from truth, for that information is simply not there. If departure is meant, as the restrainer is being taken out of the way, it fits the theme of the gathering. A falling away does NOT fit.

Remember, this must be a very SIGNIFICANT apostasia. Again, if it is the departure and catching away of the church, it certainly fits a very significant departure, since the rapture of the bride is a one time event.

Lamad

iamlamad said:

"When he says "that day will not come" First lets make sure we understand that this phrase was added by the translators: it seems Paul left it out. Perhaps it was what he meant to write. Of course if he meant to include this, he was referring right back to what he had just written...."we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."

Paul's argument is simple: the day of the Lord cannot possibly come until the restrainer is taken out of the way and the man of sin revealed. Again I ask, can evil restrain evil? I say no. A kingdom divided will not stand. It must be some kind of GOOD that is restraining evil.

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The phrase "taken out" in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is also an invention of the translators. The specific Greek word used there occurs 45 other times and not once does it ever imply removal. Neither does the root word and it occurs over 670 times. I don't have time to make a full, well-thought reply to the rest of your post, but I will get to it when I can.

ENOCH2010 said:

lamad like I said, has to add a resurrection for the pre-trib rapture.

Not so with the post -trib rapture, the Bible plainly says the Lord will return at the sounding of the last trump at the second coming and the first resurrection just so happens to be at the same time. Coincidence !!!!! I don't think so

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No, I did not "add" a resurrection. John already added it. I merely pointed it out. It is there for all to see. For the readers, there is indeed a FIRST resurrection listed in Revelation. But the Greek word behind this first can mean first in a numbering sequence OR first in honor. All who take part in the first resurrection takes part in the most honorable resurrection.

The other resurrection is for sinners. Lamad

The pre-trib doctrine is pleasing to the ears, that's what is so dangerous about it. The pre-trib believers take the word of God and twist it until it says what they want it to say. To the post-trib believers first means FIRST, as in order of the TWO resurrections of a massive amount of people that remain in our future. That is what makes the pre-trib doctrine so dangerous, when people realize they were lied to by the very ones that tickled their ears with the bed of roses promises, they are going to be very disappointed. Ergo the great falling away.

ENOCH - Satan is also pleased to hear the Pre-Trib Doctrine. There will be so many more souls to catch when people curse God for breaking His "Promise" to take them away.

Shalom, Lamad.

(My words are going to be in the color FIRE BRICK in attempts to answer some of your questions. I reserve GREEN for Scripture and RED for the words of our Lord and BLUE for all other quotations.)

iamlamad said:

I was only concerned with the signs in the sun and moon. Joel did not mention the "stars" falling, only that they would "withdraw" their shining. And Joel includes this in both chapters 2 and 3. We both know that stars cannot fall into the earth. So what did John see? Did He see Angels coming to earth? Or did he see fallen angels coming to earth? Jesus may have seen something similar:

Whereas one can't rule out your suggestion that "angels [are] coming to earth," there is another option. These stars falling to earth are "falling stars" or "shooting stars," what we now call "meteors" and "meteorites" today. In fact, I believe that this sixth seal and the first five trumpets are all talking about "meteorites," meteor collisions with earth of various sizes and materials. Consider the sixth seal:


Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

In verse 12, SOMETHING obscures both the sun and the moon AT THE SAME TIME. There are several things that might do this: Thick clouds can obscure the sun, as during a rain storm; a solar eclipse - exactly interposing the moon between the earth and the sun - can obscure the sun, making it "dark as sackcloth of (goat's) hair"; thick smoke from some disaster - natural or man-made - might also do the trick.

The moon can "become as blood" during a lunar eclipse - exactly interposing the earth between the moon and the sun - where its only light comes from the "background" lighting from all the stars and earth's reflective light around its atmosphere; it too can be obscured by thick clouds or smoke, making it look blood-red.

However, I believe that God interposes some foreign object, such as a comet or an asteroid, between the earth and the other two objects, the sun and the moon. Such a body of any significant mass passing within the moon's orbit can cause a shifting in the otherwise somewhat stable plates of the earth's crust and cause earthquakes.

Furthermore, the one word that wasn't translated in this version of Revelation is the Greek word "holee" (spelled "omicron-lambda-eta" with the aspirated, rough-breathing mark over the omicron). The phrase in Greek is "hee seleenee holee" which actually translates to "the FULL moon!" Thus, the moon is in OPPOSITION to the sun's position at that time! This is why I favor a comet as the explanation. The comet's head, on its way to the sun (or from the sun), obscures the sun while its tail (always pointing away from the sun and pushed by the solar winds) obscures the moon. (Remember to think 3D. The comet would most likely NOT be on the plane of the moon's orbit, and the moon itself is not on the earth's plane of orbit around the sun since it would normally be a full moon.) Such an event would indeed fulfill both halves of the prophecy. Also, the debris from the tail as the comet passes would be sufficient mass to cause the other meteorite events:

The "stars falling from heaven (the sky)" in verse 13 would be herald meteors, being pushed along easier by the solar winds. The phrase "unto the earth" also implies that there were also small herald METEORITES actually striking the earth, which could also contribute to the earthquakes. "Shooting stars" or "falling stars" are typically the debris from comets' tails that the earth passes through on its trip around the sun. However, never has a comet come so close as to fall within the moon's orbit! Therefore, the NUMBER of the shooting stars will be much larger and the SIZE of the shooting stars can also be larger as we pass DIRECTLY through the tail!


Revelation 8:7-9:12
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
KJV

Rev. 8:7 suggests more herald meteorites, burning as they come, setting trees and grass on fire. The fact that the "hail and fire" were "mingled with blood" suggests that animals and people were wounded and possibly killed by these meteorites.

Rev. 8:8 suggests a sea landing of a mountain-shaped meteorite. The exact wording from this version is "AS IT WERE a great mountain burning with fire." The Greek phrase is "hoos oros mega puri kaiomenon." The word "mega" also suggests it was a mountain-SIZED meteorite, as well.

Rev. 8:10 suggests a sputtering and exploding meteorite composed of chemicals other than water and carbon dioxide. The "name" or descriptor of the star is "Apsinthos" in Greek which means "poison" and from which we get the name of the green alcoholic drink, "absinthe." It was translated in the KJV as "Wormwood," which is also a name for that drink. The phrase "burning as it were a lamp" loses information in translation. The Greek phrase is "kaiomenos hoos lampas." A "lampas" is a "TORCH," and "kaiomenos" means "to set on fire; or to kindle." John could actually see this large, mountain shaped object being set on fire from the friction! Furthermore, a lampas-torch SPUTTERS as it burns, unlike a luchnos-oil-lamp, which is a more steady source of light. Dropping its chemicals into the atmosphere, they react with the fresh water and poison the fresh water sources.

The key words in Rev. 8:12 are "was darkened" and "shone not." This is not talking about the actual sun, moon, and stars being "smitten" but the LIGHT from these objects being "smitten!" This trumpet could actually be descriptive of all the debris and smoke in the earth's atmosphere following all these meteorite events.

Rev. 9:1 is confused in translation with what we would refer to as personification. In Greek, all nouns are one of three genders, masculine, feminine, or neuter. However, these genders do NOT refer to the gender of the creature or the individual or the thing! The moon, for instance, "hee seleenee," although an inanimate object, is feminine in gender as a word. Likewise, the word for "(the) star" (which is also the same for what we understand to be a "meteor"), "ho asteer," is masculine, although it too is an inanimate object. Pronouns, too, have gender and their gender must match the gender of the nouns they modify. Therefore, it should not be surprising that the masculine-gender pronoun "autoo" was used in this verse. When referring to a person, it is often translated as "he," but when referring to an inanimate object, it is most often translated as "it."

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I believe that the reason the translator translated it as "him" in the phrase, "to him was given the key of the bottomless pit" is because of the word "kleis-key." Usually this is a literal key, however, as can be seen in Strong's definition...


NT:2807 kleis (klice); from NT:2808; a key (as shutting a lock), literally or figuratively:
KJV - key.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word can mean a FIGURATIVE key, such as the "key coordinates!" Thus, I believe this is a LITERAL "asteer-star" (or meteorite). It's given the EXACT COORDINATES - the KEY COORDINATES - of the location of this "bottomless pit." The Greek phrase is "edothee auto hee kleis tou freatos tees abussou." It means "was-given to-it the key of-the pit of-the no-bottom." This is NOT talking about "hell!" It is talking about a pit, a CAVERN, with an unsounded bottom! No one has ever explored this pit to know how deep it is!

...

Lamad

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I hope this has helped you to understand a different viewpoint of these trumpets. By the way, the Hebrew word for "trumpet" is a "shofar." Shofars are still used in Messianic congregations and Jewish synagogues today, but in the past, they were the WARNING SIRENS of Isra'el. We're talking about WARNING SIRENS like AIR-RAID SIRENS going off for each new catastrophe!

Trumpeter said:

Greetings veteran,
You are mistaken about the 1830's date.
This doctrine was clearly taught by the early church as evidenced by this quote from Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

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Thomas Ice did a REVISIONIST tirade of pseudo-ephraim, TRYING to establish it as an earlier link to the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. NO Christian Church prior to the 1830's EVER held to such a doctrine.

Several of today's Pre-trib Rapture school scolars have been found guilty of revisionism regarding Church history. Thomas Ice is only one of them.


Per Dave MacPherson's letter Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty at http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html

"Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the "Mac-theory" (his reference to my research), giving the impression there's no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800's - whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite - credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie's contribution! Moreover, I'm hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism's territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven't mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.

In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled "church" members before Antichrist's "trial" [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled "church" members - the first instance I've found of clear "pretrib" teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 "The Morning Watch" (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his "Irvingite" followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit - the first plagiarism I've found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of "church" members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google "X-Raying Margaret" for info about her.)
NOTE: The development of the 1800's is thoroughly documented in my book "The Rapture Plot." You'll learn that Darby wasn't original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child - symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby's later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today's defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn't need later reminiscences to "clarify" its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; and that after Darby's death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site and read "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers" - a sample of the current exciting internetism!)"

you want to know my opinion on matters of the Word. if you ever decide to watch what the world is criticizing about God and his Word usually ends up as truth that the world is trying to hide. when there is a new move of the spirit going throughout the churches we find that many churches refuse to listen and claim that what is being taught is false doctrine and ect because we don't want to believe that the new move is from God. also that same new move of God is also criticized by the world.

this same concept is still in effect with the rapture idea, divine healing, living with the supernatural, faith, creation, whether there is a God, and ect. this concept is nothing new but still it keeps coming around over and over again and you would think we would finally catch on but no we keep falling for the deception over and over again.

God bless

TWC said:

The phrase "taken out" in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is also an invention of the translators. The specific Greek word used there occurs 45 other times and not once does it ever imply removal. Neither does the root word and it occurs over 670 times. I don't have time to make a full, well-thought reply to the rest of your post, but I will get to it when I can.

Click to expand...

Hmm. It is my firm belief that the KJV missed it big time with "falling away."

SO is "taken out of the way" also a poor translation?




until he be (taken) out of the way.
heos genetai ek mesou

When adding up all the combinations of words in English I come up with over 150 possible meanings.

Here are the possible English words from where this phrase is translated:

arise, be, be done, be made, be preferred, become, come, come to pass, have, be fulfilled


Second Greek word:

From, out of, by, on, of, with

Third Greek word

Midst, Among

Now let's put them together every way possible:

arise from midst
arise from among
arise out of midst
arise out of among
be from midst
be from among
be out of midst
be out of among
be done from midst
be done from among
be done out of midst
be done out of among
be made from midst
be made from among
be made out of midst
be made out of among
be preferred from midst
be preferred from among
become from midst
become from among
become out of midst
become out of among
come from midst
come from among
come out of midst

So how does "taken out of the way" seem now? Is it so far removed from:

arise from midst
arise from among
arise out of midst

How did other translators translate this phrase?

until he is out of the way.
until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.
taken from the midst;
until he be gone,
until the man who is now exercising a restraining influence is removed,
until it comes out of (the) midst

Even Young's literal: till he may be out of the way,

Therefore, I don't think "taken out of they way is too far off.

until it comes out of (the) midst is probably a better or more accurate translation.

In any case, 2 Thes. 2:3 shows is that whatever it was came out of the midst and the man of sin is now revealed.

My argument still stands: can evil restrain evil? I don't think so, it is GOOD that restrains evil.

Lamad

7angels said:

you want to know my opinion on matters of the Word. if you ever decide to watch what the world is criticizing about God and his Word usually ends up as truth that the world is trying to hide. when there is a new move of the spirit going throughout the churches we find that many churches refuse to listen and claim that what is being taught is false doctrine and ect because we don't want to believe that the new move is from God. also that same new move of God is also criticized by the world.

this same concept is still in effect with the rapture idea, divine healing, living with the supernatural, faith, creation, whether there is a God, and ect. this concept is nothing new but still it keeps coming around over and over again and you would think we would finally catch on but no we keep falling for the deception over and over again.

God bless

Click to expand...

7Angels, you said a mouthful there!

It seems that with every move of God, those that partook of it got so firmly camped there, they then missed every subsequent move of God.

I pray always to be on the cutting edge of what God is doing on earth! May I ever be close enough to the Holy Spirit to recognize a new move of the Spirit.

At the time of Martin Luthor, almost every doctrine of the church had been lost. I suppose a few years after Him, some where saying, "THIS IS A NEW DOCTRINE!" Of course it was, but it was TRUTH. It was only new then. It is the same with the pretrib rapture. This was God's plan from the beginning. Perhaps it was lost during the dark ages, but God keeps bringing His truth back.

Lamad

So the translators are correct when they support your view and they are incorrect when they don't? Does the Greek text imply removal or not?

Does translating apostasia as a falling away do justice to the entire passage? Or does a departure of the church fit the context better? Again I ask, can evil restrain evil? Is this the author's intent? Make no mistake, whatever apostasia was meant to be, it MUST BE the restrainer being taken out of the way to fit the context of this passage. And by the way, does a falling away (from something - apostasia does not include what) fit the words, "taken out of the way" better than the departure of the church, which is most definitely taken out of the way by the power of the Holy Spirit? No, I don't think so. If falling away is meant, then WHAT is the falling away from? You can only guess it means a falling away from truth, for that information is simply not there. If departure is meant, as the restrainer is being taken out of the way, it fits the theme of the gathering. A falling away does NOT fit.

Remember, this must be a very SIGNIFICANT apostasia. Again, if it is the departure and catching away of the church, it certainly fits a very significant departure, since the rapture of the bride is a one time event.

Lamad

Click to expand...

Significant apostasia? The word only appears twice.
Your entire interpretation of this passage is with the assumption that there is a pretribulation rapture. You can't use a passage as a proof text if the proof is completely dependent on an interpretation that assumes the truth of whatever it is you're trying to prove. That would be circular reasoning.

Retrobyter wrote:

Furthermore, the one word that wasn't translated in this version of Revelation is the Greek word "holee" (spelled "omicron-lambda-eta" with the aspirated, rough-breathing mark over the omicron). The phrase in Greek is "hee seleenee holee" which actually translates to "the FULL moon!" Thus, the moon is in OPPOSITION to the sun's position at that time!

What is the truth here? It seems some Greek texts include a word and others leave it out.

Westcott and Hort have: h selhnh olh egeneto wV aima or hee seleenee holee egeneto hws haima

The Received Text: selhnh egeneto wV aima

Lets assume that word Olh was meant to be included. What does it tell us?
Let's see how some translated it.

American Standard Version: the whole moon became as blood;
Douay Rheims: the whole moon became as blood:
Weymouth New Testament: the whole disc of the moon became like blood.

For holos (3650) Strongs says: 1) all, whole, completely

So all this is telling us is that the whole moon is in view. From Wikipedia on eclipse of the moon we read "Hence, a lunar eclipse can only occur the night of a full moon."

Therefore I see no problem with a moon appearing as red meaning a total eclipse of the moon. The Greek even backs this up.

Next, this verse does not necessarily say that these events in the sun and moon happen in the same 24 hours! Perhaps it is a month or two when the Sun is dark (eclipse of the sun?) and the moon into blood. These signs in the sun, moon and stars may be over a couple of months.

TWC said:

So the translators are correct when they support your view and they are incorrect when they don't? Does the Greek text imply removal or not?


Significant apostasia? The word only appears twice.
Your entire interpretation of this passage is with the assumption that there is a pretribulation rapture. You can't use a passage as a proof text if the proof is completely dependent on an interpretation that assumes the truth of whatever it is you're trying to prove. That would be circular reasoning.

Click to expand...

This is not true, I am using the very context of this passage as proof. First Paul tells us the theme of the passage is the gathering.

Next, Paul tells us some are very disturbed having heard that the Day of the Lord had already begun.

Paul then tells them there is one way to know for sure when you are IN the day of the Lord: first you have to see two events take place. 1) the apostasia 2) the revealing of the Beast. When someone sees these two events, they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord.

Next, Paul says NOW YOU KNOW who the restrainer is.

Then Paul explains that the man of sin cannot possibly be revealed until the one restraining him is taken out of the way, and then the man of sin can be revealed.

So the big question is, what did Paul and the holy Spirit mean by apostasia?

Why did Paul write, "and now you know?" The only answer that makes sense is that Paul just TOLD THEM.

Therefore, the ONLY answer to apostasia is that it must be the restrainer taken out of the way.

This conclusion is true no matter if the rapture is pre, mid or post; apostasia must be the restrainer being removed.

If a falling away is meant, than that must be the restrainer being removed.
If the departing of the bride is meant, than that must be the restrainer being removed.

One of these two is the truth. The other is not. I ask again, can evil restrain evil?

I leave it up to the readers to answer.

ENOCH2010 said:

The pre-trib doctrine is pleasing to the ears, that's what is so dangerous about it. The pre-trib believers take the word of God and twist it until it says what they want it to say. To the post-trib believers first means FIRST, as in order of the TWO resurrections of a massive amount of people that remain in our future. That is what makes the pre-trib doctrine so dangerous, when people realize they were lied to by the very ones that tickled their ears with the bed of roses promises, they are going to be very disappointed. Ergo the great falling away.

Click to expand...

The truth is dangerous? Only if it is ignored!
In your case, first means first in RANK, not first in numbering sequence. Most bible students realize Jesus was the first one in the first resurrection. Then the elders of the Old Covenant saints that rose when Jesus rose were the second part of the first resurrection - the most honorable resurrection or the first in rank or influence. Next, the dead in Christ rising pretrib will be a part of his most honorable resurrection. Next the 144,000 will be resurrected,and they too will be a part of the first resurrection.

First: prōtos
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour
B) chief

c) principal




What real verse or verses - not pulled out of its context - really backs up a posttrib rapture? Or a prewrath rapture?

There are none. Yet day after day, posts are made touting this doctrine of devils. Why would Satan try to hard to get
people to believe in such a lie? I can think of only one reason: Satan wants them to be left behind at the real, pretrib
rapture, because he thinks there is a chance he can force them into taking the mark and being doomed.

It seems everything we get from heaven, we get through faith. I suspect that it will be the same with the rapture. If people
are believing in the rapture and are watching for His coming, they have FAITH in it, and they will be caught up to heaven
to escape all these things that are coming.

On the other hand, if someone is sure they will see the Beast first, how can they have faith to watch for HIS coming first?
I postulate that they cannot. One can either be watching for the revealing of the Beast or watching for the coming of Our Lord to take us home. These are mutually exclusive.

Lamad

iamlamad said:

Retrobyter wrote:

Furthermore, the one word that wasn't translated in this version of Revelation is the Greek word "holee" (spelled "omicron-lambda-eta" with the aspirated, rough-breathing mark over the omicron). The phrase in Greek is "hee seleenee holee" which actually translates to "the FULL moon!" Thus, the moon is in OPPOSITION to the sun's position at that time!

What is the truth here? It seems some Greek texts include a word and others leave it out.

Westcott and Hort have: h selhnh olh egeneto wV aima or hee seleenee holee egeneto hws haima

The Received Text: selhnh egeneto wV aima

Lets assume that word Olh was meant to be included. What does it tell us?
Let's see how some translated it.

American Standard Version: the whole moon became as blood;
Douay Rheims: the whole moon became as blood:
Weymouth New Testament: the whole disc of the moon became like blood.

For holos (3650) Strongs says: 1) all, whole, completely

So all this is telling us is that the whole moon is in view. From Wikipedia on eclipse of the moon we read "Hence, a lunar eclipse can only occur the night of a full moon."

Therefore I see no problem with a moon appearing as red meaning a total eclipse of the moon. The Greek even backs this up.

Next, this verse does not necessarily say that these events in the sun and moon happen in the same 24 hours! Perhaps it is a month or two when the Sun is dark (eclipse of the sun?) and the moon into blood. These signs in the sun, moon and stars may be over a couple of months.

This is not true, I am using the very context of this passage as proof. First Paul tells us the theme of the passage is the gathering.

Next, Paul tells us some are very disturbed having heard that the Day of the Lord had already begun.

Paul then tells them there is one way to know for sure when you are IN the day of the Lord: first you have to see two events take place. 1) the apostasia 2) the revealing of the Beast. When someone sees these two events, they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord.

Next, Paul says NOW YOU KNOW who the restrainer is.

Then Paul explains that the man of sin cannot possibly be revealed until the one restraining him is taken out of the way, and then the man of sin can be revealed.

So the big question is, what did Paul and the holy Spirit mean by apostasia?

Why did Paul write, "and now you know?" The only answer that makes sense is that Paul just TOLD THEM.

Therefore, the ONLY answer to apostasia is that it must be the restrainer taken out of the way.

This conclusion is true no matter if the rapture is pre, mid or post; apostasia must be the restrainer being removed.

If a falling away is meant, than that must be the restrainer being removed.
If the departing of the bride is meant, than that must be the restrainer being removed.

One of these two is the truth. The other is not. I ask again, can evil restrain evil?

I leave it up to the readers to answer.

The truth is dangerous? Only if it is ignored!
In your case, first means first in RANK, not first in numbering sequence. Most bible students realize Jesus was the first one in the first resurrection. Then the elders of the Old Covenant saints that rose when Jesus rose were the second part of the first resurrection - the most honorable resurrection or the first in rank or influence. Next, the dead in Christ rising pretrib will be a part of his most honorable resurrection. Next the 144,000 will be resurrected,and they too will be a part of the first resurrection.

First: prōtos
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour
B) chief

c) principal




What real verse or verses - not pulled out of its context - really backs up a posttrib rapture? Or a prewrath rapture?

There are none. Yet day after day, posts are made touting this doctrine of devils. Why would Satan try to hard to get
people to believe in such a lie? I can think of only one reason: Satan wants them to be left behind at the real, pretrib
rapture, because he thinks there is a chance he can force them into taking the mark and being doomed.

It seems everything we get from heaven, we get through faith. I suspect that it will be the same with the rapture. If people
are believing in the rapture and are watching for His coming, they have FAITH in it, and they will be caught up to heaven
to escape all these things that are coming.

On the other hand, if someone is sure they will see the Beast first, how can they have faith to watch for HIS coming first?
I postulate that they cannot. One can either be watching for the revealing of the Beast or watching for the coming of Our Lord to take us home. These are mutually exclusive.

Lamad

Click to expand...

Still refuse to give up on that same old garbage eh lecoop? Still attempting to cast doubt into other peoples minds by turning the apostasy into the rapture and anyone who disagrees is teaching doctrines of devils? What's next? Are you still calling the opposition "5th graders" and addressing everyone on the board at one time as "readers"? How is "the prophetess" doing? I suppose that must be part of the reason for the name change eh? After all those failed predictions for 2012 I would be pretty ashamed myself. le-leopard cannot change his spots, neither can lecoop, and apparently neither did lamad who continues to say "iam". Oh well, welcome aboard anyways. :lol:


EDIT: Oops! . . . I see you are already at it! :lol:

iamlamad said:

This does not even make good theory, because it does not fit the scriptures. Where does John first mention the day of wrath? Of course, in chapter 6. The first trumpet is the beginning of His wrath. What happens at the first trumpet? All the green grass is burn up.

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.
18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
19 O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

What is Joel's sign of the day of the Lord? Is it not that the pastures are burned up?

I am convinced the first trumpet is the fulfillment of this prophecy in Joel.

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Is not the burning of trees and grass destruction?

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Is the burning of trees and grass :laying the land desolate?"

Readers, make no mistake here: the trumpets are judgments of God. The seals are not. The seals are the birth pains. God's judgments and His wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment, and the warning of impending doom comes at the 6th seal. The 7th seal - 30 minutes of silence - is the official opening of the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. They both start together and both run together until the 7th vial ends the 70th week, while the DAY continues.

As for the rapture, we see the results of the rapture, in Revelation 7, as the great crowd no one could number. Even a 5th grader could tell us it comes before the trumpet judgements begins the wrath of God.

This is in perfect agreement with Paul, who received the only revelation of the rapture. Paul tells us that the rapture is what starts the day of the Lord. (See 1 thes. 5)

It should be clear to true students of the word, that the gathering in Matthew 24 is not the rapture; indeed, could not possibly be the rapture - for Paul tells us it was a MYSTERY before He wrote of it. If it was a mystery, then it could not have been revealed at the Olivet discourse. Finally, a 5th grader reading Matthew 24 will tell us this gathering is gathering for HEAVEN, not the earth.



Perhaps you can tell us which of these two Jesus' resurrection was a part of? If there are only two, Jesus MUST have been one of these two, right? it is written that He was risen as firstfruits. That means, there must be secondfruits, thirdfruits, etc, and they must be a part of the SAME resurrection.....
So tell us which of the two Jesus was a part of.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:...

Who are these that are seated on thrones? When were they resurrected?

I will give the readers a hint:

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Lamad

Let's look together, readers included:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light..

Rev. 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Sorry,, I don't agree. There are TWO times these signs are shown. the first time is the warning for the DAY as shown to us in Joel 2 and Rev. 6. Here the moon appears as blood, while the sun is darkened. The next time these signs are seen is about 7 years later, as the sign for the coming of the Son of man. We see this sign also shown in Joel 3. Did you never read Joel 3 to see both these signs written in Joel?

Joel 3
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Mat 24...the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.

Readers, do you see the difference? When the moon is darkened, WE CANNOT SEE IT! The only time we can see the moon is when it is lit up by sunlight. Otherwise it is invisible to the naked eye.

What is the timeframe for the Joel 3 signs?

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Readers, as you can see, it is WHEN JESUS RETURNS. So this fits Matt. 24 perfectly.

Observation: it seems those that cannot see a pretrib rapture cannot see that these signs in the sun and moon come TWICE, and they are slightly different.


"Paul was reiterating to the Thessalonians what Jesus told his disciples on the Mount of Olives."

I don't think so. But perhaps you could show us two verses that show you this...one from 2 thes. and one from Mat. 24?

One thing I do see in Mat 24 that others seem to overlook, is: "but the end is not yet." Much of the signs people think are IN the 70th week Jesus tells us are only birth pains.

I am sorry, I cannot find in Matt. 24 where Jesus said there would be a falling away from the faith.. Can you show us that verse?

I think you missed the THEME of Paul's passage. For the readers, let's look together:

1. But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, (Amp)

Readers. shall we let PAUL tell us what he was really going to discuss here? What does He say? His THEME is the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to meet Him. This is what Paul is going to discuss. Thanks, TWC, but I am going with what PAUL said he would discuss. Therefore, any theory of his meaning MUST INCLUDE something about the gathering.

If we read this passage closely, PAUL TELLS US who or what the restrainer is! It is no secret and all should know - we should not have any disagreements......unless of course, the truth destroys someone's pet theory. Don't believe me? Let's look:

6 And now you know what is restraining him .....

Readers, I did not write this, PAUL wrote it! So HOW can we know? Just simply UNDERSTANDING the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit when HE caused Paul to write, "and NOW YOU KNOW..." I believe even a 5th grader could understand Paul's meaning....somewhere in the previous verses HE TOLD US who the restrainer was. That is why he wrote, "and now you know..."

Verses 6-8 tell us that what is restraining MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY before the man of sin can be revealed.
In verse 3-B the restraining IS TAKEN out of the way. Therefore, pure logic demands that the restrainer was removed in 3-A.

Paul then is clear, the meaning of the Greek word, "apostasia" has to mean the restrainer - indeed, it can mean nothing else.
But is it not just any apostasia, it is THE apostasia....a very significant one. This is why I am sure the first translators had it right as "departure." Did Paul talk about as SIGNIFICANT departure of something that could possibly restrain evil? OF COURSE, Paul talked about the rapture of the church!

As I said, case closed. We we get to heaven and ask Paul, He is going to tells us "Of course I meant the gathering of the believers, that was the theme of the passage," or at least words to this effect. It is the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit. Lamad

Click to expand...

Too bad it would not be right to post links from other forums where you have clearly been proven wrong. h34r:

iamlamad said:

Retrobyter wrote:

Furthermore, the one word that wasn't translated in this version of Revelation is the Greek word "holee" (spelled "omicron-lambda-eta" with the aspirated, rough-breathing mark over the omicron). The phrase in Greek is "hee seleenee holee" which actually translates to "the FULL moon!" Thus, the moon is in OPPOSITION to the sun's position at that time!

What is the truth here? It seems some Greek texts include a word and others leave it out.

Westcott and Hort have: h selhnh olh egeneto wV aima or hee seleenee holee egeneto hws haima

The Received Text: selhnh egeneto wV aima

Lets assume that word Olh was meant to be included. What does it tell us?
Let's see how some translated it.

American Standard Version: the whole moon became as blood;
Douay Rheims: the whole moon became as blood:
Weymouth New Testament: the whole disc of the moon became like blood.

For holos (3650) Strongs says: 1) all, whole, completely

So all this is telling us is that the whole moon is in view. From Wikipedia on eclipse of the moon we read "Hence, a lunar eclipse can only occur the night of a full moon."

Therefore I see no problem with a moon appearing as red meaning a total eclipse of the moon. The Greek even backs this up.

Next, this verse does not necessarily say that these events in the sun and moon happen in the same 24 hours! Perhaps it is a month or two when the Sun is dark (eclipse of the sun?) and the moon into blood. These signs in the sun, moon and stars may be over a couple of months.

.....


Lamad

Click to expand...

You've missed Yeshua`s point: The eclipses of the sun and the moon happen ALL THE TIME! So, what would distinguish THIS time as the SIGN OF HIS COMING? I won't say anymore on it.

Apparently the next "prophetic window" should coincide with the Mark Biltz theory and the upcoming "Tetrad" eclipses, (which is likely what Lamad is building towards in his dialogue). Perhaps Mark Biltz did not intend those things to balloon into all of the prognastycations which have resulted but perhaps so? Anyone ever noticed that "the moon does not give her light" at least once a month; month in, month out; year in, year out? It is called a new moon and is CYCLICAL just as the seasons, man, and Torah. I know ya'll weren't talkin bout new moons but rather bloody full ones; however, there are other things of much more consequence.

Quote iamlamad: "I am currently in China, teaching in a small church."

Ever heard or read anything about Corrie Ten Boom "iamlamad" ???
You might want to check into the following, (and the many other witnesses) concerning what happened in China.

Corrie Ten Boom on the Rapture of the Church:
INTRODUCTION TO CORRIE'S LETTER – "Corrie Ten Boom's letter of 1974 is shown below and in THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO. She comments on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view which is popular today. She relays a word of warning to us in the West from the Suffering Church in China. She exhorts us to prepare ourselves spiritually in Christ, in His Holy Word, and by His Holy Spirit for the coming trials of our faith. She tells of the Chinese Church in a former time being misinformed, unwarned, and ill-prepared for he persecutions that began in 1949 under Mao Tse Tung's Red Guards. In this letter Corrie warns that Christians in the West today are in danger of falling into a similar disaster born of ecclesiastical neglect and the resultant spiritual unpreparedness. Corrie, in classic Dutch directness plainly states that those who teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture are among the false teachers Jesus warned us about. See Mat.24:4-5)."

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint." . . . "
CORRIE TEN BOOM and the RAPTURE

Yes, there always must be an answer, just not always the right one. This should keeps us more broken; less prideful, as the unveiling of the Book is in progression. Even if I know who the Anti-Christ IS........Do I really know the number of his name? ...& do I know the EXACT sequence of this myriad of events that may happen in rapid succession?.....Well...not exactly.

This is where I am today. I believe the Church will go through the Tribulation, but is essentially a Pre-Wrath Church.

"Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”....TIME HAS STOPPED, GOD IS REVEALED TO ALL PEOPLES &.....

Jesus gathers & judges at the same time; He sends out His angels to bundle the saints, & girds Himself to destroy the wicked at the same time, in a pouring out of TOTAL WRATH......where all the oceans are now blood, & all the springs of frsh waters, & everything green on the entire Earth are now burnt black/brown. This is unsurvivable for but a few days for any humanity. The Lord could destroy the wicked instantly, but it would not be fair; He lets them experience the terror & murder that they have inflicted on the innocent.


And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

When this occurs we will have also been delivered to our Justice: The wonderful Marriage supper of the Lamb!
Multitude from the Tribulation.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun t down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the [d]water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

This is basicaly how I see it now.........I hope.

you say For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple

who is this before the throne? are these people those that come out of the great trib? if so then where are those that are referred in in rev 19 at the marriage supper?

what exactly is a prewrath church?

if you believe the church will go through the great trib then how do you explain that the Word teaches we have all power over the devil and his wiles but during the great trib the devil will be given power over the saints? if this is possible then the Lord is contradicting himself unless the church and those that go through the trib are different?

God bless

7angels said:

you say For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple

who is this before the throne? are these people those that come out of the great trib? if so then where are those that are referred in in rev 19 at the marriage supper?

what exactly is a prewrath church?

if you believe the church will go through the great trib then how do you explain that the Word teaches we have all power over the devil and his wiles but during the great trib the devil will be given power over the saints? if this is possible then the Lord is contradicting himself unless the church and those that go through the trib are different?

God bless

Click to expand...

The Apostles of Jesus were all butchered by the power of the Devil....so to speak. Read Hebrews 11

"you say For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple


who is this before the throne? are these people those that come out of the great trib? if so then where are those that are referred in in rev 19 at the marriage supper?


what exactly is a prewrath church?


if you believe the church will go through the great trib then how do you explain that the Word teaches we have all power over the devil and his wiles but during the great trib the devil will be given power over the saints? if this is possible then the Lord is contradicting himself unless the church and those that go through the trib are different?


God bless

If you could slow down, & think, you would see what having power over the Devil really means; it certainly does not mean the church is free from Persecution, or even Martyrdom . Large amounts of the victorious Early Church were persecuted, & most of the Apostles were killed by the devil; as it always is when the Church walks in holiness & power; Remember Stephen & James & Antipas & Paul's last will & testimony to Timothy; "I am ready to be offered up."



The Word NEVER contradicts itself; just man's understanding of it, & their have been millions of victorious martyrs through out time, but this last trial coming will dwarf them all as we will see perhaps 10s of millions of beheadings in this soon coming Great Tribulation; the edict for the infidel in the tenets of true Sharia; Islamic Fundamentalism.


"Then he....[ The Anti-Christ..] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.



It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.



And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.



All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."



This is what the Bible says...not me. I was sent to Eritrea, North Africa last September, where I met the Anti-Christ, & witnessed the False prophet call down huge pillars of fire.....Osama Bin Laden & the most powerful Islamic male witch you could imagine. I prophesied to them that they would get the world, but not all of it, because a holy remnant would be kept by God...& thaqt Jesus was Lord....& their end would be to be cast forever in the Lake of fire.



I was pursued by then through three countries...Egypt , Germany & into Israel.....& they wanted to butcher me...but could not touch me....I know not how.....Two countries I left under the protection of the U.S. embassy. I saw the pillars of fire three times, Osama Bin Laden twice; Eye to eye....[ He travelled with a large Islamic entourage...]...& the false prophet twice.


This event will come like a snare upon the whole Earth....very, very quickly...I believe with the fall of America & her armies....& then Europe...& then the rest of the world will be like a ripe plum.....Bin Laden is possessed by the Prince of Persia....2nd in command of the underworld, & Satan has given his power to both of them.



The Beast from the Sea,
" Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.



Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.



And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast."


Bin Laden, the most famous death in the history of the world, was assainated by Navy Seals, wounding him in his head with three rifle bullets.....& buried in the Red Sea in Islamic Ritual. I met the pair on September 26th, 2012, after 17 months dead in Sea Water after being assassinated. My testimony.