Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[BLACK SHEEP]

In response to iamlamad,

Pre-trib Christian's think that because God is a loving God He won't let them endure the tribulation. However. His Word is full of examples where He lets His people suffer tribulation. He doesn't remove them from it but He helps them "through it." But that doesn't matter to a misled pre-tribulationist.

The Lord returns for a church without spot or wrinkle. That's one reason Christian's will endure the tribulation. To purify the church! He will protect them through it!

Did God take the Israelites out of Egypt before the plagues or did He protect them through the plagues while they were still in Egypt?

Did God save Daniel from the lions den or through it?

Did God save Joseph from prison and slavery or through it?

Did God save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace or through it?

Did God take Job out of his tribulations or did he save him through them?
Studying the bible over the course of several years, I have found that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest and most logical one. Pretribulationism is the most complicated and fabricated of all Christian doctrines. It's the most fabricated mess of a doctrine that I have ever seen. It is one fabrication built upon another fabrication which always results into several contradictions which again requires other fabrications to counter those contradictions.

Any doctrine that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The evangelical experts like Thomas Ice and his rabid clan of pre-tribbers have taken what is a timely and strategic act of kindness and turned it into a terror attack. They have made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. They have taken something simple and pristine and perverted it all to the disgrace of God. They have taken the scriptures far out of context and have added a false hope of sensationalism. It's the most deceitful and widely held false doctrine of the church age.

There are a host of problems with pretribulationism. One is that there is not one verse that say's Jesus will return "before" the tribulation. And wouldn't you think that an event as profound as a pretrib rapture, which sounds more like a terror attack that kills millions as Jesus takes you Christian's to heaven, would be clearly outlined in scripture? The entire doctrine is a fabrication of Satan himself.

During the tribulation unbelievers will "scoff" at pretribulationist. ​

Remember that according to pre-tribbers, if there's no rapture that means the anti-christ isn't revealed yet and we are not in tribulation. We will be deep into the tribulation and the so called prophecy experts will have excuse after excuse and new fabrications to explain why they are still here and why we are not yet in the tribulation! And since they are still here, there are still seven years left!

If pretribulationism were true, then I would suspect that God would not have left us confused and in the dark about it. Wouldn't there be some verses that clearly state Christ returns before the tribulation? Of the many verses that speak of His second advent and the Day of the Lord, wouldn't you expect there to be a least one verse that states He returns prior to the tribulation? What pretribulationist have to prove more than a rapture is that somewhere in God's Holy Word Christ is said to return before the tribulation. We all agree that he does return after the tribulation. But pretribulationist don't care that Jesus said the gathering occurs after the tribulation. They simply fabricate another return and another rapture, and change the timing of the Day of the Lord and the marriage supper of the Lamb! And then they ask, "who will populate the millennium?"

If a word study is done on the elect of Mathew 24, it refutes pretribulationism. It's that simple. But will pretribulationist repent of distorting the word of God? Of course not!

The word 'elect' in Mathew 24 means Christian's. It also does in the following verses...
I see that iamlamad likes to use the original text. That is as long as it doesn't debunk his pre-trib rapture!

Result of search for "elect":

1588. eklektos ek-lek-tos' from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah is called "elect", (as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect means Christian's in every one of the following verses.​

Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14
(elect/chosen=same word)

John the Christian said,

However, this rather long list of evidence does not appear to matter to Hal Lindsey and friends. They would like you to believe that Mt. 24 was written for and refering to "Jews" and not christians.
They yet refuse to view the elect of Matthew 24 as Christians, and they have no qualms about teaching you falsely as long as you line up with their pre-trib' views. To be most accurate, let me show you a reading of the Biblical verse that coincides with my Greek interlinear:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).

We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7),
>that it entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),
>that the gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17),
>and that God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe this verse is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation." (So begins the fabrication process)

Rather than humbly accepting a post-tribulation rapture, then, and rather than admitting that the Bible has concrete language to that end, they attempt to undermine all by altering the meaning of one word, "elect," so that it becomes a reference to the Jews alone, and not at all to Christians. The Church is thereby removed from the text and, therefore, from the event completely.

This is serious infringement; the entire discourse here on the end times is affected...we are no longer led to view the bulk of Matthew 24 as a warning for Christians, but solely for Jews.

It's pure manipulation and arrogance against the words of the Son of God. How else am I to understand the pre-tribulationists when they give Old-Testament cross references alone for Matthew's elect? Pathetic is the word! Of course the "elect" of the Old Testament are going to be Jews and nothing but Jews!

Why does Christ remove his "elect" after the tribulation?​

Quite often an attack is aborted because of the high risk of civilian casualties. Now think about this...
What does a country usually do when they are about to invade another country? They remove their civilians to get them out of harms way!

When a military division is on the front lines and they see the enemy pull a sudden evacuation, commanders on the other side know that there's very likely a nuclear warhead coming at them. They don't want to destroy themselves by the friendly fire of a nuke. So they evacuate.

When our Lord returns to do battle against the beast(s) and to destroy those who destroy the earth, He removes his own in order to avoid "friendly fire". Logical enough?

We are told to endure tribulation in many verses.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.Top of Form 1
　
Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1 Thes 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The saints are in the middle of tribulation in the following verses in Revelation!
5:8, 8:3, 8:4 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9
Here are a few of them...

Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev.14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev. 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Are you getting the picture of how fabricated and unscriptural pretribulation is?

When we are in the middle of tribulation, the heathen will scoff at pretribulationist, and many Christians will not understand the time of his return.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
　
The pretribulationist would like you to believe that the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4 or 5.
But saints, servants, fellow servants, martyrs and brethren are the church, and they are mentioned throughout Revelation. The saints go through tribulation!

Now think about this for a minute. If most Christians are not expecting to be here, then they have no need to prepare for tribulation. And most of them are not preparing!
Pre-tribbers will just continue with one fabrication after another to cover up their colossal blunders. Will they ever repent, accept the truth, and admit they've accepted a lie and come out of denial?

The churches eschatology is full of blunders anyway. Let's see. A pre-trib rapture? A global dictator? A one world government? A united one world religion? A worldwide mark of the beast? A rebuilt temple? Put all these doctrines together and you have got one misled church.

I have said it many times. Pretribulationism is the most deceptive and widely held false doctrine of the church age. It has done a lot to hurt the church and God is not pleased with it. I say He is disappointed with HIS CHURCH.
Christians are moving away from pretribulationism as the contradictions continue to come to light.

Iamlamad,
You have fallen for and are obsessed with pre-tribulationism. I have read most or your replies and you have perverted God's Word and grossly taken it out of context. You're approach to understanding scripture is not hermeneutical, you disregard the contradictions. Are very opinionated, beyond speculative, and have accepted a complicated, fabricated mess of lies and contradictions thanks to your mentors like Thomas Ice. The Words of Jesus and the Word of God are simple and concise and easy to understand. You have grossly perverted them.

What will you do when the harlot's of the most primitive religions (Islam) in the world bring us into tribulation by detonating the most sophisticated weapons in the world? What will you do when the abominations of the earth come full force and everybody is still here? What will you do when the Arab/Muslim world refuses to enter the NWO and the Middle-East unites into an evil ten nation Islamic Empire...and your still here?

If there is a pretrib rapture the most you can say to me is "I told you so!" However, if there isn't, you and all the others have a lot to confront. Will you continue to fabricate even more stuff to support the false doctrine you have latched onto? Or will you repent of your thinking, come clean and admit you've been misled and mistaken and come to the knowledge of the truth, and go from there?
　
　

Paul then tells them there is one way to know for sure when you are IN the day of the Lord: first you have to see two events take place. 1) the apostasia 2) the revealing of the Beast. When someone sees these two events, they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord.

Not true!!!

Paul does not say that there is one way to know for sure when you are "in the day of the Lord." In fact there is nothing in the text that indicates being "IN" the Day of the Lord. He is quoted as saying what events must come first or BEFORE the day of the Lord. Which are....
The rebellion (apostasy) and the revelation of the man of sin.

...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed

...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness

You have misinterpreted and perverted the scriptures again!

first means first in RANK, not first in numbering sequence.

WOW!

Another colossal blunder!

You're having trouble understanding truths in God's Word, and even perverting it, because you put your false eschatology above common sense.

Maybe you should have quoted what Thayer also said about the word "first."
He said, "First..In either time or place, in any succession of things or of persons.

First: proton
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour

 

[TWC]

.This is not true, I am using the very context of this passage as proof. First Paul tells us the theme of the passage is the gathering.

Next, Paul tells us some are very disturbed having heard that the Day of the Lord had already begun.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

There you go leaving parts of passages out again. Based on the actual context of the passage, Paul is associating both the coming of Christ and the gathering with the day of the Lord. Paul does nothing here to say that one event happens on the day and the other doesn't.

The apostasia cannot both be the gathering and a prerequisite for the gathering.

 

[John S]

Black Sheep - Amazing - You and I have reached virtually the same conclusions on how truly evil the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine is. Since almost nobody agrees with me on anything, that is quite an achievement.
I have a few minor theological differences with your statement, but that can wait for another time.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Black Sheep - Amazing - You and I have reached virtually the same conclusions on how truly evil the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine is. Since almost nobody agrees with me on anything, that is quite an achievement.
I have a few minor theological differences with your statement, but that can wait for another time.

I'm impressed, and I'm sure you are, at how and why so many people have fallen for a doctrine that has so many fabrications, (and the fabrications continue today) and so complicated beyond logic and reason, and so incredibly contradictory.

The harpazo really is very easy to understand as long as we accept the Word as it is written.

Pre-tribbers believe what they do because...
THAT'S THE WAY THE DEVIL WANTS IT!
In fact the Church's entire eschatology is inspired by the evil one.

Besides there not being a pre-trib rapture.
There will not be a one world government or one world religion. There will not be a rebuilt temple. There will not be a global currency or global mark of the beast. The mark will be limited to the coming ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast. The mark of the beast is as simple as carrying the Koran "in your right hand" which according to the scholars has 6,666 verses in it. Or the zebiba which is a patch of hardened skin on the forehead of a devout Muslim that results from continually hitting the forehead on the mat. OR it could be like a bandana like Hamas usually wears.

 

[iamlamad]

HI Daq. We meet again! I am still teaching the truth, and you are still teaching something far from truth.
But then, we are very close to the end, so we will soon SEE the truth played out.

By the way, many others have joined the prophetess. There is now also a Timothy prophet. And they are all saying the same thing: time is up - get ready for the pretrib rapture. It is only that God in His great mercy is giving the world a few more seconds of time.

To tell you the truth, I could not remember my sign in information, or even if I had been on this site before. So I just joined again. I am still lecoop, but my email is iamlamad. My old one was sabotaged. I am certainly NOT THE I AM. I was only copying Dr. Seuss. Just my name was not Sam! So today and the foreseeable future, I am Lamad.

Proven wrong? How can truth be proven wrong? Just hold onto you hats. Very soon the dead in Christ will rise, and I and millions of others will follow. Then all post-tribbers and prewrathers will know they have been duped.

Lamad

P.S. credit where credit is due: You certainly remembered me well! And that is a good thing. I hope others remember my posts too!

You've missed Yeshua`s point: The eclipses of the sun and the moon happen ALL THE TIME! So, what would distinguish THIS time as the SIGN OF HIS COMING? I won't say anymore on it.

Yes, it is true, yet coming in 2014-2015 are four total eclipses of the moon together, unusual. But each of these is on an anniversary date of a Jewish feast. That makes this extremely rare. It happened in 1967-1968, and before that 1949-1950. Before that was way back at the Spanish Inquisition. So is this a sign for Israel? Could it be the sign of Joel 2? Certainly it could be. But then it may not be. I am convinced it is a sign for Israel. But God may have something else in mind for the Joel 2 prophecy. Lamad

 

[daq]

HI Daq. We meet again! I am still teaching the truth, and you are still teaching something far from truth.
But then, we are very close to the end, so we will soon SEE the truth played out.

By the way, many others have joined the prophetess. There is now also a Timothy prophet. And they are all saying the same thing: time is up - get ready for the pretrib rapture. It is only that God in His great mercy is giving the world a few more seconds of time.

To tell you the truth, I could not remember my sign in information, or even if I had been on this site before. So I just joined again. I am still lecoop, but my email is iamlamad. My old one was sabotaged. I am certainly NOT THE I AM. I was only copying Dr. Seuss. Just my name was not Sam! So today and the foreseeable future, I am Lamad.

Proven wrong? How can truth be proven wrong? Just hold onto you hats. Very soon the dead in Christ will rise, and I and millions of others will follow. Then all post-tribbers and prewrathers will know they have been duped.

Lamad

P.S. credit where credit is due: You certainly remembered me well! And that is a good thing. I hope others remember my posts too!

Yes I do believe most here have also met "Timothy" (or at least one of his "messengers"). :lol:

You've missed Yeshua`s point: The eclipses of the sun and the moon happen ALL THE TIME! So, what would distinguish THIS time as the SIGN OF HIS COMING? I won't say anymore on it.

Yes, it is true, yet coming in 2014-2015 are four total eclipses of the moon together, unusual. But each of these is on an anniversary date of a Jewish feast. That makes this extremely rare. It happened in 1967-1968, and before that 1949-1950. Before that was way back at the Spanish Inquisition. So is this a sign for Israel? Could it be the sign of Joel 2? Certainly it could be. But then it may not be. I am convinced it is a sign for Israel. But God may have something else in mind for the Joel 2 prophecy. Lamad

Apparently the next "prophetic window" should coincide with the Mark Biltz theory and the upcoming "Tetrad" eclipses, (which is likely what Lamad is building towards in his dialogue). Perhaps Mark Biltz did not intend those things to balloon into all of the prognastycations which have resulted but perhaps so?

 

[veteran]

This is not true, I am using the very context of this passage as proof. First Paul tells us the theme of the passage is the gathering.

Next, Paul tells us some are very disturbed having heard that the Day of the Lord had already begun.

Paul then tells them there is one way to know for sure when you are IN the day of the Lord: first you have to see two events take place. 1) the apostasia 2) the revealing of the Beast. When someone sees these two events, they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord.

Next, Paul says NOW YOU KNOW who the restrainer is.

Then Paul explains that the man of sin cannot possibly be revealed until the one restraining him is taken out of the way, and then the man of sin can be revealed.

So the big question is, what did Paul and the holy Spirit mean by apostasia?

Why did Paul write, "and now you know?" The only answer that makes sense is that Paul just TOLD THEM.

Therefore, the ONLY answer to apostasia is that it must be the restrainer taken out of the way.

This conclusion is true no matter if the rapture is pre, mid or post; apostasia must be the restrainer being removed.

If a falling away is meant, than that must be the restrainer being removed.
If the departing of the bride is meant, than that must be the restrainer being removed.

One of these two is the truth. The other is not. I ask again, can evil restrain evil?

You seem to be on track there until you get to Paul's idea of apostasia and after.


II Th 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

Paul's subject, the timing of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him (what some called the 'rapture').


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is restating this Message here to the Church at Thessalonica. Some false ones there were trying to corrupt his first teaching about these events. That's why he told them not to be shaken in mind, nor even by those who were guilty of trying to pass off letters as if written from the Apostles.


3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The day of Christ's coming and our gathering, will not happen unless ("except"), two conditions happen first, the apostasy of many, and the revealing of the man of sin, or the final Antichrist/pseudo-Christ that is to come and sit in a temple in Jerusalem for the very end to claim and show that he is God (i.e., Lucifer's wanna be aim).


5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

This shows Paul was reminding them of these things, not giving them another different Message.


6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Both of those verses go together. The final working of the "mystery of iniquity" is the coming of the one which the children of darkness worship instead, i.e., the "another Jesus", the one Paul was warning about in the previous 3-4 verses. So the subject of the one coming of verses 3-4 is being continued here by Paul, and it's about the Antichrist, the "man of sin", "son of perdition", "that Wicked" mentioned further below.

Common sense then would be, the withholding is about that false one that is coming. That cannot be understood by trying to dissect the Greek of the passage, but only by previous Bible study.

In Daniel 10 we're shown a heavenly view of battles with Archangels being shown Daniel. At the end of the chapter Daniel is told by the angel there is only one that withholds with him, the Archangel Michael. The angel said he would return to fight with the "prince of Persia", that being a heavenly pattern symbol thus put for Lucifer the devil. He said Michael only holds with him in those things.

In Rev.12:7 forward we are told about a war in heaven between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels, with Satan and his being cast out of heaven to the earth, and then a strong 'woe' to those living on earth. And then that dragon goes after God's people. The hint of when that will occur is given again in Daniel 12:1 about the time when Michael will "stand up" (i.e., make a stand), pointing to this Rev.12:7 event for the very end of this world, and not some time in ancient history.

Thus the one that is withholding is the Archangel Michael. And the one being withheld is Satan himself, the dragon of Revelation.


2 Thess.2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

That "Wicked" the KJV translators chose to capitalize. Rightly so because it's pointing directly to Satan himself as the ultimate Wicked one, even as Paul is hinting in that 9th verse there about the working of Satan with ALL power and signs and lying wonders.

That 9th verse is the same kind of warning our Lord Jesus gave us in Matt.24:23-29 and Mark 13:24-27, and Rev.13:11 forward about the coming final Antichrist, a false messiah or pseudo-Christ. Satan himself is that "son of perdition" because he has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire.



2 Thess.2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(KJV)


The "strong delusion" idea Paul mentions is directly linked to his idea of apostasy (apostasia) he mentioned back at verses 3-4. Anyone who can read those verses can easily tell it's about a certain false one coming to play God, working great signs and miracles to deceive many into bowing in worship to him instead of waiting on Christ's coming later to destroy him.

Men's doctrines instead TRY to cloud Paul's warnings here in 2 Thess.2, so why... even attempt to listen to them???

 

[Brothertom]

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."......

The day of Christ's coming and our gathering, will not happen unless ("except"), two conditions happen first, the apostasy of many, and the revealing of the man of sin, or the final Antichrist/pseudo-Christ that is to come and sit in a temple in Jerusalem for the very end to claim and show that he is God (i.e., Lucifer's wanna be aim......Veteran..

The Lord used me to reveal the son of Perdition, the Anti-Christ, Osama Bin Laden, last September, on a trip to North Africa....& I witnessed the false prophet travelling with him....a most powerful sorcerer...younger...probably in his early 30s. I also witnessed huge pillars of fire that he called down, 3 times.....40-50 feet high pillars of fire...like a standing tornado. I have looked into their eyes....& they hated me.......I prophesied to them that they would get the world, but not all of it,.....for there would be a remnant upon the coming of the Lord in all nations, & of the Lord-ship of Jesus of Nazareth, & His glory & victory...........& of their end in the Lake of fire.

They attempted to murder me through 4 nations.....ending in Israel....yet I escaped. Does his 7 year reign begin the day he comes out of the sea? It could be. I added 1260 days to the day I met them...[ for the false prophet/sorcerer can only do his miracles in the prescence of the Beast.]..Bin Laden, on September 26th, 2012. This comes to the middle point of 7 Jewish years of 360 days...March 9th.....2019...the day of a great Solar Eclipse...that some believed that the Anti-Christ might be revealed with power.

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2011/luisv1217.htm

I think that this might happen, & I believe that this will be the exact same time that the Two-Witnesses will be anointed for their 42 month anointing, along with the total defeat of America, and her impending invasion & occupation....though I am not prophesying it as "thus says God"....but for a short time....every nation will be under his power. America will be the uncorking of all opposition...& the entire world will fall under Sharia Law & ther worship of Bin Laden as Mohammed/Allah/Jahweh.

The Church will be most holy & victorious in these days...& will do exploits....& a part of her will remain until His coming...Jesus...but there will be a multitude of beheaded saints too....VICTORY!

 

[iamlamad]

In response to iamlamad,

Pre-trib Christian's think that because God is a loving God He won't let them endure the tribulation. However. His Word is full of examples where He lets His people suffer tribulation. He doesn't remove them from it but He helps them "through it." But that doesn't matter to a misled pre-tribulationist.

The Lord returns for a church without spot or wrinkle. That's one reason Christian's will endure the tribulation. To purify the church! He will protect them through it!

Did God take the Israelites out of Egypt before the plagues or did He protect them through the plagues while they were still in Egypt?

Did God save Daniel from the lions den or through it?

Did God save Joseph from prison and slavery or through it?

Did God save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace or through it?

Did God take Job out of his tribulations or did he save him through them?

NONE of these makes any difference at all. The rapture of the Church is a ONE TIME event.
Next, none of these things were the wrath of God. They were the devil's attempts to kill Jews.
Perhaps you should read Hebrews 11:39-40


Studying the bible over the course of several years, I have found that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest and most logical one. Pretribulationism is the most complicated and fabricated of all Christian doctrines. It's the most fabricated mess of a doctrine that I have ever seen. It is one fabrication built upon another fabrication which always results into several contradictions which again requires other fabrications to counter those contradictions.

NOne of this is true. Paul's writing in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 are very clear and to the point: the rapture is the trigger for the Day of the Lord.
Posttribbers want to use a gathering from heaven for their rapture. What could be more silly that that? Pretribbers know the rapture
gathers from EARTH. John is in perfect harmony with Paul, showing the raptured church in heaven before he as even started the 70th week or the Day of the Lord - the day of His wrath. Posttribbers try to find the gathering between the lines in Rev. 19. It is not there.

Any doctrine that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The evangelical experts like Thomas Ice and his rabid clan of pre-tribbers have taken what is a timely and strategic act of kindness and turned it into a terror attack. They have made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. They have taken something simple and pristine and perverted it all to the disgrace of God. They have taken the scriptures far out of context and have added a false hope of sensationalism. It's the most deceitful and widely held false doctrine of the church age.

I will agree. The Postrib doctrine has contradictions. They will all MISS the wedding and supper. There is not even one verse that supports a posttrib doctrine.

There are a host of problems with pretribulationism. One is that there is not one verse that say's Jesus will return "before" the tribulation. And wouldn't you think that an event as profound as a pretrib rapture, which sounds more like a terror attack that kills millions as Jesus takes you Christian's to heaven, would be clearly outlined in scripture? The entire doctrine is a fabrication of Satan himself.

If people can read, there is the word COMING in 1 Thes. 4:15. It is there for all to read. Even Thomas Ice needs to read it. And again, Paul makes it clear this rapture comes just before the Day of the Lord and is the trigger for that day. This writer forgets that Paul was the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture. As for the "sudden Destruction," that must be taken up with Our Lord. It is His business. But it is plainly written. There is NO scripture that says we will be caught up into the air, only to escort Jesus down. John 14 is very clearly written: we go to the mansions prepared for us.

During the tribulation unbelievers will "scoff" at pretribulationist. ​

Remember that according to pre-tribbers, if there's no rapture that means the anti-christ isn't revealed yet and we are not in tribulation. We will be deep into the tribulation and the so called prophecy experts will have excuse after excuse and new fabrications to explain why they are still here and why we are not yet in the tribulation! And since they are still here, there are still seven years left!

This is a dream of posttribbers. We will NOT BE HERE. Plain and simple, yet so difficult for some to believe. But when suddenly millions disappear from around the world, perhaps then posttribbers will get a clue they were mistaken and were left behind.

If pretribulationism were true, then I would suspect that God would not have left us confused and in the dark about it. Wouldn't there be some verses that clearly state Christ returns before the tribulation? Of the many verses that speak of His second advent and the Day of the Lord, wouldn't you expect there to be a least one verse that states He returns prior to the tribulation? What pretribulationist have to prove more than a rapture is that somewhere in God's Holy Word Christ is said to return before the tribulation. We all agree that he does return after the tribulation. But pretribulationist don't care that Jesus said the gathering occurs after the tribulation. They simply fabricate another return and another rapture, and change the timing of the Day of the Lord and the marriage supper of the Lamb! And then they ask, "who will populate the millennium?"

I and millions of others are NOT in the dark. We know the truth of the scriptures. There will BE NO rapture when Jesus comes on His white horse. The rapture will have taken place 7 plus years previous. May I suggest this writer go back to 1 Thes. and read chapter 5 again and again until he gets it? The rapture is the trigger for the Day. Pretribbers know the rapture does not gather from HEAVEN. What clue could be more plain? This gathering is not the rapture of the church! As for timing, it has always been just where John put it. Where do we read "the day of His wrath has come? That is the warning. The 7th seal officially opens both the Day and the 70th week. The first trumpet is the first part of His wrath poured out. The marriage is still where John put it, IN HEAVEN and before Jesus descends. Posttribbers will not be there. There is no rapture in the first verses of chapter 19, before the wedding. If I were a posttribber, I would be trying to figure out how to get to the wedding, and not worry about who will populate the millennium.

If a word study is done on the elect of Mathew 24, it refutes pretribulationism. It's that simple. But will pretribulationist repent of distorting the word of God? Of course not!

Sorry, that argument is probably as old as Paul. They were called elect in the Old Covenant too. Pretribbers KNOW the rapture does not gather from the heavens. that is just plain silly. The dead in Christ are UNDER the EARTH. We are on the earth.

The word 'elect' in Mathew 24 means Christian's. It also does in the following verses...
I see that iamlamad likes to use the original text. That is as long as it doesn't debunk his pre-trib rapture!

Result of search for "elect":

1588. eklektos ek-lek-tos' from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah is called "elect", (as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect means Christian's in every one of the following verses.​

Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14
(elect/chosen=same word)

Isaiah 45:4
Isaiah 65:9
Isaiah 65:22

John the Christian said,

However, this rather long list of evidence does not appear to matter to Hal Lindsey and friends. They would like you to believe that Mt. 24 was written for and refering to "Jews" and not christians.
They yet refuse to view the elect of Matthew 24 as Christians, and they have no qualms about teaching you falsely as long as you line up with their pre-trib' views. To be most accurate, let me show you a reading of the Biblical verse that coincides with my Greek interlinear:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).

Again, the rapture gathers from the EARTH. You do know, this period of time is called DANIEL's 70th week and not PAUL's 70th week?

We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7),
>that it entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),

How amazing Paul seemed to leave that part out, about the angels. did you not read that we will have bodies just like the angels? Why then would we need to be gathered? This gathering is not the rapture. WE are part of the armies of heaven. We are coming down with Him......Oh, sorry, ONLY pretribbers will be coming down with Him. Posttribbers think they will be caught up to meet Him as He comes down, AFTER the wedding they missed.

>that the gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17),
>and that God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe this verse is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation." (So begins the fabrication process)

Not fabrication, it is correctly dividing the word of God - what we are all encouraged to do. Pauls rapture does NOT gather from the heavens.

Rather than humbly accepting a post-tribulation rapture, then, and rather than admitting that the Bible has concrete language to that end, they attempt to undermine all by altering the meaning of one word, "elect," so that it becomes a reference to the Jews alone, and not at all to Christians. The Church is thereby removed from the text and, therefore, from the event completely.

Again, I remind you, this is the 70th week of DANIEL. Did you forget He was a Jew?

This is serious infringement; the entire discourse here on the end times is affected...we are no longer led to view the bulk of Matthew 24 as a warning for Christians, but solely for Jews.

It's pure manipulation and arrogance against the words of the Son of God. How else am I to understand the pre-tribulationists when they give Old-Testament cross references alone for Matthew's elect? Pathetic is the word! Of course the "elect" of the Old Testament are going to be Jews and nothing but Jews!

In fact, God tells us the day is coming when He will gather Israel.

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 43
5Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6I will say to the north, "Give them up!' And to the south, "Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth--
7Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Jeremiah 31
6For there shall be a day when the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim, "arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God."'
7For thus says the LORD: "sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, "O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!' 8Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and the one who labors with child, together; a great throng shall return there.
10"Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock.'[/SIZE]

Personally this makes far more sense that gathering from heaven for the rapture.

Why does Christ remove his "elect" after the tribulation?​

Quite often an attack is aborted because of the high risk of civilian casualties. Now think about this...
What does a country usually do when they are about to invade another country? They remove their civilians to get them out of harms way!

When a military division is on the front lines and they see the enemy pull a sudden evacuation, commanders on the other side know that there's very likely a nuclear warhead coming at them. They don't want to destroy themselves by the friendly fire of a nuke. So they evacuate.

When our Lord returns to do battle against the beast(s) and to destroy those who destroy the earth, He removes his own in order to avoid "friendly fire". Logical enough?

We are told to endure tribulation in many verses.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.Top of Form 1
　
Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1 Thes 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The saints are in the middle of tribulation in the following verses in Revelation!
5:8, 8:3, 8:4 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9
Here are a few of them...

Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev.14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev. 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Are you getting the picture of how fabricated and unscriptural pretribulation is?

When we are in the middle of tribulation, the heathen will scoff at pretribulationist, and many Christians will not understand the time of his return.

ha ha! Dream on. We will not be here.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
　
The pretribulationist would like you to believe that the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4 or 5.

This is just ignorance of many pretribbers. i will agree here 100% Making a rapture of 4:1 is incredibly sloppy exegesis.


But saints, servants, fellow servants, martyrs and brethren are the church, and they are mentioned throughout Revelation. The saints go through tribulation!

There will be many left behind at the pretrib rapture, and many more that will turn to God after. Plenty of people to be called saints.
However, those that believe Luke will take the way of escape.


Now think about this for a minute. If most Christians are not expecting to be here, then they have no need to prepare for tribulation. And most of them are not preparing!
Pre-tribbers will just continue with one fabrication after another to cover up their colossal blunders. Will they ever repent, accept the truth, and admit they've accepted a lie and come out of denial?

We have the truth, so no need to repent...only pray for those that will be left behind.

The churches eschatology is full of blunders anyway. Let's see. A pre-trib rapture? A global dictator? A one world government? A united one world religion? A worldwide mark of the beast? A rebuilt temple? Put all these doctrines together and you have got one misled church.

I have said it many times. Pretribulationism is the most deceptive and widely held false doctrine of the church age. It has done a lot to hurt the church and God is not pleased with it. I say He is disappointed with HIS CHURCH.
Christians are moving away from pretribulationism as the contradictions continue to come to light.

I say the same thing for the posttrib doctrine: it is a doctrine of devils.

Iamlamad,
You have fallen for and are obsessed with pre-tribulationism. I have read most or your replies and you have perverted God's Word and grossly taken it out of context. You're approach to understanding scripture is not hermeneutical, you disregard the contradictions. Are very opinionated, beyond speculative, and have accepted a complicated, fabricated mess of lies and contradictions thanks to your mentors like Thomas Ice. The Words of Jesus and the Word of God are simple and concise and easy to understand. You have grossly perverted them.

Dream on! I am going to take Luke's escape. If you wish to tribulate, that is up to you. If you wish to set your OWN appointment with His wrath, that is your prerogative. But WHY when God has created a way of escape? Anyway, we will not have long to wait, and one day you will wake up and millions will be missing around the world. Everything will be changed "overnight."

What will you do when the harlot's of the most primitive religions (Islam) in the world bring us into tribulation by detonating the most sophisticated weapons in the world? What will you do when the abominations of the earth come full force and everybody is still here? What will you do when the Arab/Muslim world refuses to enter the NWO and the Middle-East unites into an evil ten nation Islamic Empire...and your still here?

Sorry, will not be here. But if death comes before the pretrib rapture, I will be in heaven anyway.

If there is a pretrib rapture the most you can say to me is "I told you so!" However, if there isn't, you and all the others have a lot to confront. Will you continue to fabricate even more stuff to support the false doctrine you have latched onto? Or will you repent of your thinking, come clean and admit you've been misled and mistaken and come to the knowledge of the truth, and go from there?
　
I have fabricated nothing. I take Paul and John at their word. The church is in heaven in Revelation 7. You cannot change that. you can only deny. The Beast does not come until chapter 11-13. So who is twisting scripture? Thanks, but I will believe John and Paul over you and a million posts like this one.
　
Not true!!!

Paul does not say that there is one way to know for sure when you are "in the day of the Lord." In fact there is nothing in the text that indicates being "IN" the Day of the Lord. He is quoted as saying what events must come first or BEFORE the day of the Lord. Which are....
The rebellion (apostasy) and the revelation of the man of sin.

Perhaps you do not understand Greek verb tenses. Oh well. Perhaps you should read it in a different translation?
NIV ...asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

The Same Greek word (has already come0 has been translated as present 2 times and as things present 2 times, as come once. They thought they were IN the Day of the Lord.

...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed

Yes, that day, that is the Day of the Lord, will not come until the DEPARTURE comes first, the "taking out of the way," the one that is restraining and then the man of sin is revealed.

...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness

You have misinterpreted and perverted the scriptures again!

Sorry, I think KJV did that. I an convinced departure of the restrainer is the best translation. Of course you can choose to believe the KJV even though that does not fit the context. Remember, this passage is about the gathering!

WOW!

Another colossal blunder!

You're having trouble understanding truths in God's Word, and even perverting it, because you put your false eschatology above common sense.

Maybe you should have quoted what Thayer also said about the word "first."
He said, "First..In either time or place, in any succession of things or of persons.

First: proton
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour

That is his opinion. My opinion is that first in HONOR fits the context better. it is simple, Jesus was a part of the first resurrection...unless you wish to make his resurrection a part of the second! The Old Testament saints that rose with Him were part of the first. The pretrib rapture will be a part of the first. The rapture of the 144,000 will be a part of the first.

 

[veteran]

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."......

The day of Christ's coming and our gathering, will not happen unless ("except"), two conditions happen first, the apostasy of many, and the revealing of the man of sin, or the final Antichrist/pseudo-Christ that is to come and sit in a temple in Jerusalem for the very end to claim and show that he is God (i.e., Lucifer's wanna be aim......Veteran..

The Lord used me to reveal the son of Perdition, the Anti-Christ, Osama Bin Laden, last September, on a trip to North Africa....& I witnessed the false prophet travelling with him....a most powerful sorcerer...younger...probably in his early 30s. I also witnessed huge pillars of fire that he called down, 3 times.....40-50 feet high pillars of fire...like a standing tornado. I have looked into their eyes....& they hated me.......I prophesied to them that they would get the world, but not all of it,.....for there would be a remnant upon the coming of the Lord in all nations, & of the Lord-ship of Jesus of Nazareth, & His glory & victory...........& of their end in the Lake of fire.

They attempted to murder me through 4 nations.....ending in Israel....yet I escaped. Does his 7 year reign begin the day he comes out of the sea? It could be. I added 1260 days to the day I met them...[ for the false prophet/sorcerer can only do his miracles in the prescence of the Beast.]..Bin Laden, on September 26th, 2012. This comes to the middle point of 7 Jewish years of 360 days...March 9th.....2019...the day of a great Solar Eclipse...that some believed that the Anti-Christ might be revealed with power.

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2011/luisv1217.htm

I think that this might happen, & I believe that this will be the exact same time that the Two-Witnesses will be anointed for their 42 month anointing, along with the total defeat of America, and her impending invasion & occupation....though I am not prophesying it as "thus says God"....but for a short time....every nation will be under his power. America will be the uncorking of all opposition...& the entire world will fall under Sharia Law & ther worship of Bin Laden as Mohammed/Allah/Jahweh.

The Church will be most holy & victorious in these days...& will do exploits....& a part of her will remain until His coming...Jesus...but there will be a multitude of beheaded saints too....VICTORY!

Sorry, but Osama is not the final Antichrist, not the one Paul was speaking of.

Another spirit has deluded you. Osama is dead.

 

[iamlamad]

You seem to be on track there until you get to Paul's idea of apostasia and after.

II Th 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

Paul's subject, the timing of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him (what some called the 'rapture').

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is restating this Message here to the Church at Thessalonica. Some false ones there were trying to corrupt his first teaching about these events. That's why he told them not to be shaken in mind, nor even by those who were guilty of trying to pass off letters as if written from the Apostles.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The day of Christ's coming and our gathering, will not happen unless ("except"), two conditions happen first, the apostasy of many, and the revealing of the man of sin, or the final Antichrist/pseudo-Christ that is to come and sit in a temple in Jerusalem for the very end to claim and show that he is God (i.e., Lucifer's wanna be aim).

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

This shows Paul was reminding them of these things, not giving them another different Message.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Both of those verses go together. The final working of the "mystery of iniquity" is the coming of the one which the children of darkness worship instead, i.e., the "another Jesus", the one Paul was warning about in the previous 3-4 verses. So the subject of the one coming of verses 3-4 is being continued here by Paul, and it's about the Antichrist, the "man of sin", "son of perdition", "that Wicked" mentioned further below.

Common sense then would be, the withholding is about that false one that is coming. That cannot be understood by trying to dissect the Greek of the passage, but only by previous Bible study.

In Daniel 10 we're shown a heavenly view of battles with Archangels being shown Daniel. At the end of the chapter Daniel is told by the angel there is only one that withholds with him, the Archangel Michael. The angel said he would return to fight with the "prince of Persia", that being a heavenly pattern symbol thus put for Lucifer the devil. He said Michael only holds with him in those things.

In Rev.12:7 forward we are told about a war in heaven between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels, with Satan and his being cast out of heaven to the earth, and then a strong 'woe' to those living on earth. And then that dragon goes after God's people. The hint of when that will occur is given again in Daniel 12:1 about the time when Michael will "stand up" (i.e., make a stand), pointing to this Rev.12:7 event for the very end of this world, and not some time in ancient history.

Thus the one that is withholding is the Archangel Michael. And the one being withheld is Satan himself, the dragon of Revelation.

2 Thess.2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

That "Wicked" the KJV translators chose to capitalize. Rightly so because it's pointing directly to Satan himself as the ultimate Wicked one, even as Paul is hinting in that 9th verse there about the working of Satan with ALL power and signs and lying wonders.

That 9th verse is the same kind of warning our Lord Jesus gave us in Matt.24:23-29 and Mark 13:24-27, and Rev.13:11 forward about the coming final Antichrist, a false messiah or pseudo-Christ. Satan himself is that "son of perdition" because he has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire.


2 Thess.2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(KJV)


The "strong delusion" idea Paul mentions is directly linked to his idea of apostasy (apostasia) he mentioned back at verses 3-4. Anyone who can read those verses can easily tell it's about a certain false one coming to play God, working great signs and miracles to deceive many into bowing in worship to him instead of waiting on Christ's coming later to destroy him.

Men's doctrines instead TRY to cloud Paul's warnings here in 2 Thess.2, so why... even attempt to listen to them???





Ha ha ha! You have dug yourself into a hole! Now you have made Michael falling away. Now who is stretching?
You missed Paul's argument. He said in verse 6, "and now you know" who the restrainer is - so that he can be revealed at his time. HOW could they know? Because Paul just TOLD THEM.

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only Hewho now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Paul says it twice to make sure we get it: There is one restraining and AFTER he is "taken out of the way" then the man of sin is revealed.
And Paul told us WHO the restrainer is, if we just read carefully. Find the verse where the man of sin has been revealed, and then find WHO was "taken out of the way.

3....and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,,

So IS HE or is he not revealed here? John tells us he IS REVEALED.

Therefore, the restrainer taken out of the way, the one Paul said we now know what is......must be here in the first part of this verse: logic demands it:

3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

This phrase then, is the restrainer being taken out of the way. You say the restrainer is Michael. So you have just shown that the real meaning of the Greek Apostasia is Michael fallen away.

I find this very funny! And this is the kind of teaching that would tell us the rapture comes after the trib.

Where is the gathering in your theory here? It is simply not here.

Lamad

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

NONE of these makes any difference at all. The rapture of the Church is a ONE TIME event.
Next, none of these things were the wrath of God. They were the devil's attempts to kill Jews.
Perhaps you should read Hebrews 11:39-40

We are not talking about the wrath of God. We are talking about tribulation. That's an example of how pretribulationism is one fabrication built upon another. You've changed the meaning of God's wrath, the last trump, The elect of Mathew 24, the timing and meaning of day of the Lord and marriage supper of the Lamb, and the timing of the harpazo of 2Thes. 2 as opposed to the revelation of the man of sin. Like I said...one fabrication built upon another. Every verse you quote about escaping God's wrath is taken out of context. God's wrath isn't averted by a rapture in those verses. It's attributed to salvation and averted for all Christian's who have repented and accepted Christ since the day he died. It's absolutely senseless to attribute the exemption of wrath in these verses to anything but salvation.

NOne of this is true. Paul's writing in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 are very clear and to the point: the rapture is the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

Show me how you arrive at your conclusion. The passage isn't saying that. There are several verses that indicate that the Day of the Lord is at the end of tribulation. But not one verse says that the day of the Lord occurs at tribulation's onset. And not one verse that says Christ returns before the tribulation. So you guys have had to change the Day of the Lord into a seven year period by fabricating one thing upon another changing meanings and timing of His Word. It's crazy to say the Day of the Lord is at the beginning of tribulation because it creates so many contradictions with other verses.

I will agree. The Postrib doctrine has contradictions. They will all MISS the wedding and supper. There is not even one verse that supports a posttrib doctrine.

Show me those contradictions. I know that they're always based upon your fabrications. EVERY ONE OF THE CONTRADICTIOS YOU WOULD QUOTE COME FROM YOUR PRECONCEIVED FABRICATIONS. And here are the words of Jesus. Where you fabricate another rapture soley for Jews.

The Coming of the Son of Man
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a dream of posttribbers. We will NOT BE HERE. Plain and simple,

If it's plain and simple why is it that the pretrib doctrine is the most complicated and extensive doctrine that has ever entered the Church? It takes volumes of books to fabricate the fantasy. And why is it that without changing the meaning of any words in the text, it only takes one verse by the words of Jesus to prove without a doubt the gathering takes place after the tribulation?

I and millions of others are NOT in the dark. We know the truth of the scriptures.

I would prophesy that you and millions are left in the dark!

Sorry, that argument is probably as old as Paul. They were called elect in the Old Covenant too. Pretribbers KNOW the rapture does not gather from the heavens. that is just plain silly. The dead in Christ are UNDER the EARTH. We are on the earth.

The word 'eklektos' means Christians. If you want to go to Strongs, Thayers, Vines, or anyone else to see the meaning of the New Testament Word "eklektos" lets have at it. Not once in the New Testament is the word used to signify Jews that I know of. In every verse I quoted the context of the passage is clear that Christian's are indicated. But none of this matters to you. The word elect in the OT always meant God's Chosen people. But in the New Testament since Christ rose and the church began the word always means CHRISTIANS.

Again, the rapture gathers from the EARTH. You do know, this period of time is called DANIEL's 70th week and not PAUL's 70th week?

It's classic of pertribber's to bring up Daniel's 70th week in all of this. I'm not a believer in the gap theory. But yes the rapture does gather from earth right here...IN REVELATION 14!

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] "Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
Reaping the Earth’s Harvest

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] "Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
It's also incredible to me that you would quote Isaiah 43 and Jeremiah 31. This is talkig about Israel's present day restoration back to the land. And try to tell me it's the gathering of Mathew 24. These kind of flagrant misinterpretations is what makes arguing this fruitless and useless.

ha ha! Dream on. We will not be here.

What's with the "ha ha" stuff?

I say the same thing for the posttrib doctrine: it is a doctrine of devils.

Why is it too simple for you....

JESUS SAID...

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Perhaps you do not understand Greek verb tenses. Oh well. Perhaps you should read it in a different translation?
NIV ...asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

Perhaps we should just take it to Strong's, Vines, Thayers, Wuest, and of course the interlinear. I have them all and can help the argument quite well.

That is his opinion. My opinion is that first in HONOR fits the context better.

At least your willing to admit that your theory and fabrications are based on your opinions.
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

 

[Trumpeter]

We are not talking about the wrath of God. We are talking about tribulation.
　
　

The wrath of God is poured out during the great tribulation.

Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day [is] great, So that none [is] like it; And it [is] the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.


Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Rev 14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[iamlamad]

We are not talking about the wrath of God. We are talking about tribulation. That's an example of how pretribulationism is one fabrication built upon another. You've changed the meaning of God's wrath, the last trump, The elect of Mathew 24, the timing and meaning of day of the Lord and marriage supper of the Lamb, and the timing of the harpazo of 2Thes. 2 as opposed to the revelation of the man of sin. Like I said...one fabrication built upon another. Every verse you quote about escaping God's wrath is taken out of context. God's wrath isn't averted by a rapture in those verses. It's attributed to salvation and averted for all Christian's who have repented and accepted Christ since the day he died. It's absolutely senseless to attribute the exemption of wrath in these verses to anything but salvation.


Show me how you arrive at your conclusion. The passage isn't saying that. There are several verses that indicate that the Day of the Lord is at the end of tribulation. But not one verse says that the day of the Lord occurs at tribulation's onset. And not one verse that says Christ returns before the tribulation. So you guys have had to change the Day of the Lord into a seven year period by fabricating one thing upon another changing meanings and timing of His Word. It's crazy to say the Day of the Lord is at the beginning of tribulation because it creates so many contradictions with other verses.
Show me those contradictions. I know that they're always based upon your fabrications. EVERY ONE OF THE CONTRADICTIOS YOU WOULD QUOTE COME FROM YOUR PRECONCEIVED FABRICATIONS. And here are the words of Jesus. Where you fabricate another rapture soley for Jews.

The Coming of the Son of Man
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If it's plain and simple why is it that the pretrib doctrine is the most complicated and extensive doctrine that has ever entered the Church? It takes volumes of books to fabricate the fantasy. And why is it that without changing the meaning of any words in the text, it only takes one verse by the words of Jesus to prove without a doubt the gathering takes place after the tribulation?


I would prophesy that you and millions are left in the dark!


The word 'eklektos' means Christians. If you want to go to Strongs, Thayers, Vines, or anyone else to see the meaning of the New Testament Word "eklektos" lets have at it. Not once in the New Testament is the word used to signify Jews that I know of. In every verse I quoted the context of the passage is clear that Christian's are indicated. But none of this matters to you. The word elect in the OT always meant God's Chosen people. But in the New Testament since Christ rose and the church began the word always means CHRISTIANS.


It's classic of pertribber's to bring up Daniel's 70th week in all of this. I'm not a believer in the gap theory. But yes the rapture does gather from earth right here...IN REVELATION 14!

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] "Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
Reaping the Earth’s Harvest

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] "Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
It's also incredible to me that you would quote Isaiah 43 and Jeremiah 31. This is talkig about Israel's present day restoration back to the land. And try to tell me it's the gathering of Mathew 24. These kind of flagrant misinterpretations is what makes arguing this fruitless and useless.


What's with the "ha ha" stuff?


Why is it too simple for you....

JESUS SAID...

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Perhaps we should just take it to Strong's, Vines, Thayers, Wuest, and of course the interlinear. I have them all and can help the argument quite well.


At least your willing to admit that your theory and fabrications are based on your opinions.
　
　
"We are not talking about the wrath of God. We are talking about tribulation. That's an example of how pretribulationism is one fabrication built upon another. You've changed the meaning of God's wrath, the last trump,"　


This is why posttrib doctrine is simply a fabrication, made up on verses not understood and about other things. Postribbers always try to separate the Wrath of God from "the trib." They mistakenly believe that only the vials are God's wrath. This writer is even more confused and said that God's wrath is "the last trump." Perhaps he believes the vials come out of the trump?

Perhaps he misunderstood that the 24 elders were giving a PROPHECY: "The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged," Perhaps he does not understand Greek Aorist verbs. The Greek word translated "has come: is translated from erchomai. It is an Aorist tense verb, for which the Blue Letter Bible (Thayers I believe) says: "the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense,"

So there is simply no timing information given with this verb. We have to ascertain the timing from the context. It is the same Greek word used to end chapter 6 where John writes, "the day of His wrath has come." That is, indeed, the warning of His wrath, but His wrath must wait for the rapture (For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation) and the sealing of the 144,000. But what is written just before the sealing?

Rev. 7:1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Posttribbers will try to say that harming the trees is neither the Day of the Lord nor the wrath of God, but again they just ignore the plain word of God that says something different. So what does God say?

Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:6
Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man’s heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

The day of the Lord comes as destruction, to lay the land desolate and it comes with fierce anger. it is impossible to separate His wrath from the Day or the Day from His wrath. When the day begins, His wrath begins to be poured. If His wrath does not begin at the end of chapter 6, then where does it begin? It begins when God begins to destroy the earth. That comes with the trumpet judgments. THAT is the start of God's wrath. It is the destruction of the trees, the grass the seas and the fresh water. When God destroys 1/3 of mankind, you imagine that is NOT His wrath? OF COURSE the destruction of 1/3 of humans on the planet is HIS WRATH. The truth is, His wrath starts with the first trumpet in chapter 8 and continues through the book all the way to the last vial of His wrath poured out. That is Our Father's wrath. Yet we see the Son of God has great wrath at the Battle of Armageddon in chapter 19.

One might ask, OK, then were does "tribulation" start? My friends, the entire church age has been one tribulation after another. John wrote in the first chapter, "I John in the tribulation." The "THE" is there in every Greek text, but no translator has dared add it to English translations. It is far better to call this time the 70th week of Daniel and the Day of the Lord. However, those days of Great Tribulation will begin at the midpoint of the week, marked by the 7th trumpet. It will certainly increase after the Image has been set up and mark has been established. Remember, all who refuse to worship the image will be put to death....does this ring any memory bells? Satan has no new tricks. he tried this with Nebuchadnezzar.

So trying to separate His wrath from "tribulation" simply will not work. Posttribbers need to go back to Revelation 101 and start over - but with all preconceived glasses OFF. The wrath of God beings at the breaking of the 7th seal and with the sounding of the first trumpet.

The elect of Mathew 24, the timing and meaning of day of the Lord and marriage supper of the Lamb, and the timing of the harpazo of 2Thes. 2 as opposed to the revelation of the man of sin. Like I said...one fabrication built upon another.

As I showed above, the fabrication is all on the side of postribbers, as in trying to separate His wrath from days of tribulation. Prewrathers are even MORE guilty of this. Posttribbers, I have a question.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Did these, "Israel my elect" suddenly NOT BE His elect when Jesus rose from the dead? Did God drop them like a hot potato and suddenly they became HIS HATED?

NO! NO! NO! Israel is STILL His elect. Postribbers are STILL trying to make Matthew 24 about Christians. Again I ask, is this time period called Paul's 70th week or Daniel's 70th week? 24:15 is about the abomination in the middle of said week, which is DANIEL's 70th week. THIS TIME IS FOR THE JEWS. It is the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE, not Paul's trouble. POSTTRIB DOCTRINE IS ALL ABOUT TAKING VERSES OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT, then blaming pretribbers for not believing their sloppy exegesis. The truth is, the 70th week was and is for ISRAEL. It is for disobedient SERVANTS, not Sons of the KING. The age of grace is OVER at the pretrib rapture, and the final week with be to finish the LAW.

God's wrath isn't averted by a rapture in those verses. It's attributed to salvation and averted for all Christian's who have repented and accepted Christ since the day he died.

1 Thessalonians 5:9

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

So we are accused of taking this out of context? What IS the context? The context is the RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH!!!!! Paul has just told us that those living in darkness will get "sudden destruction." This will be the great, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. But those living in the LIGHT of Christ do not suffer from this sudden destruction; Paul writes that they get SALVATION and get to live together with Him. Since Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, he is making very strong inference that this sudden destruction will be the start of the Day of the Lord. So is this taken out of context? ABSOLUTELY NOT! The context is the rapture. So here where Paul writes his classic rapture verse, he shows the timing: it is BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and is the TRIGGER for the Day. " Salvation" here is clearly the rapture or catching away of the church, for Paul adds, we live together with Him. This is saying "so shall we ever be with the Lord," just different wording. Sorry, posttribbers lose again. This verse is most definitely showing us that salvation comes by being caught up and forever being with Him.

Posttribbers would have Paul disagreeing with Himself in his second letter, as if he forgot that in his first letter he taught PRETRIB. No, Paul did not forget. His second letter is also pretrib. THE Apostasia is THE Departure - of the bride. It is also the "taking out of the way" of the one restraining. So the truth is, Paul is very much pretrib in both of His letters. And His pretrib fits perfectly with John's pretrib, showing us the church around the throne in heaven in chapter 7, just before the Day of the Lord begins in chapter 8. This is not a difficult concept. I am convinced, a 5th grader could understand this. However, preconceive glasses prevents people from seeing the truth.

There are several verses that indicate that the Day of the Lord is at the end of tribulation
But not one verse says that the day of the Lord occurs at tribulation's onset.

How long is the Day of the Lord? There is STRONG indication that it will start as I have pointed out, with the first trumpet, and go one for the entire 1000 year reign of Christ. So of course the end of the 70th week will be included in the day of the Lord, BUT SO WILL THE FIRST OF THE WEEK. The truth is, the Day of the Lord begins in Chapter 8 and continues on through most of the book. If there is a verse posttribbers think PROVE the day starts at the end, by all means show us, and I will show it is just another verse misunderstood by posttribbers.

not one verse that says Christ returns before the tribulation.

Sorry, but EVERY true rapture verse shows without a doubt this He comes first in the air BEFORE the 70th week and His wrath begins.

So you guys have had to change the Day of the Lord into a seven year period by fabricating one thing upon another changing meanings and timing of His Word. It's crazy to say the Day of the Lord is at the beginning of tribulation because it creates so many contradictions with other verses.

I have changed nothing. John and Paul both show us the day of the Lord begins with the DESTRUCTION. All the changing is done on the side of posttribbers. Why don't you just believe the simple word of God? The Day begins with DESTRUCTION. Just read it! Sorry, but TRUTH　ｃｒｅａｔｅｓ　ｎｏ　ｃｏｎｔｒａｄｉｃｔｉｏｎｓ．

The Coming of the Son of Man
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.　　

Ｏｆ　ｃｏｕｒｓｅ　Ｈｅ　ｃｏｍｅｓ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ｔｈｅ　ｔｒｉｂｕｌａｔｉｏｎ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｏｓｅ　ｄａｙｓ．　Ｎｏ　ｐｒｅｔｒｉｂｂｅｒ　ｄｅｎｉｅｓ　ｔｈｉｓ．　Ｂｕｔ　ｙｏｕ　ｈａｖｅ　ｃｒｅａｔｅｄ　ａ　ｍｅａｎｉｎｇ　ｎｏｔ　ｍｅａｎｔ　ｂｙ　ｔｈｅ　Ａｕｔｈｏｒ．　Ｔｈａｔ　ｉｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｒａｐｔｕｒｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｃｈｕｒｃｈ．　Ｐｏｓｔｔｒｉｂｂｅｒｓ　ｏｎｌｙ　ＴＨＩＮＫ it is. They are mistaken and will be proven wrong.

If it's plain and simple why is it that the pretrib doctrine is the most complicated and extensive doctrine that has ever entered the Church?

It is only complicated to those with preconceived glasses. Look how simple it is: WHERE　ｉｎ　Ｒｅｖｅｌａｔｉｏｎ　ｉｓ　ｔｈｅ　ｇｒｅａｔ　ｃｒｏｗｄ　ｓｅｅｎ　ｉｎ　ｈｅａｖｅｎ？　Ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｉｎ　ｃｈａｐｔｅｒ　７.　Ｗｈｅｒｅ　ｄｏｅｓ　Ｊｏｈｎ　ｓｐｅａｋ　ａｂｏｕｔ　ｔｈｅ　ＢＥＡＳＴ？　Ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｉｎ　ｃｈａｐｔｅｒ　１３.　Ｓｅｅ　ｈｏｗ　ｓｉｍｐｌｅ　ｉｔ　ｉｓ？　Ａ　ｃｈｉｌｄ　ｃｏｕｌｄ　ｕｎｄｅｒｓｔａｎｄ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｔｉｍｉｎｇ．

It's classic of pertribber's to bring up Daniel's 70th week in all of this. I'm not a believer in the gap theory. But yes the rapture does gather from earth right here...IN REVELATION 14!

Ｓｔｒａｎｇｅ，　Ｄａｎｉｅｌ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅｄ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｇａｐ　ｔｈｅｏｒｙ！　Ｈｅ　ｓｅｐａｒａｔｅｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｏｎｅ　ｗｅｅｋ　ｆｒｏｍ　ｔｈｅ　６９　ｗｅｅｋｓ．　ＷＯＷ！　Ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ　ｖｅｒｓｅ　ｍｉｓｕｎｄｅｒｓｔｏｏｄ　ｂｙ　ｐｏｓｔｔｒｉｂｂｅｒＳ．　The　reaping in Rev. 14 is written as a prophecy of future events, and is very symbolic: God is not going to reap with a sickle! If you read this prophecy carefully, you will see different parts of it come to pass at different times. It does not take place in the chronology of chapter 14, which is still very close to the midpoint of the week. if the harvest of the wicked took place here in chapter 14, where do the armies come from that Jesus destroys at His coming? No no! This is written in chapter 14 as a prophecy of soon coming harvest...much of which will take place at the battle of Armageddon.

Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"

This is in reference to the days of GT where untold millions will be put to death because they will not worship an image or take the mark. Those days of GT will extend for an unknown period of time into the second half of the week. God will finally shorten those days when He pours out the vials of His wrath.

I think you need to read Jer. 31 again.

Ha ha because some of what was written was funny, Posttribbers are frequently funny with their attempts to make the rapture at the end, when Jesus will come BEFORE. I am convinced you will live to see it, but you will miss it. You will wake up one day and millions will have disappeared. You will be wondering why. It was all because of those preconceived glasses!

I have a question: HOW does the world get to the judgment of the nations?

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Lamad said:





"Ha ha ha! You have dug yourself into a hole! Now you have made Michael falling away. Now who is stretching?
You missed Paul's argument. He said in verse 6, "and now you know" who the restrainer is - so that he can be revealed at his time. HOW could they know? Because Paul just TOLD THEM"

-----------------

You must be mad. Here is what Apostle Paul said...

II Th 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what (Greek ho) withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the (Greek ho) mystery of (Greek ho) iniquity doth already work: only he (Greek ho) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

The Greek (ho) above is a definite article, i.e., the, this, that, one, he, she, it. It's the same Greek article translated as "he" in the 7th verse.

The "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" is not the best translation from the Greek, but it's accurate enough. The Greek of that phrase is 'ho katecho arti katecho heos ginomai ek mesos'.


The most accurate translation of that verse 7 phrase is -- 'he, she, it' that holds down just now holds down until becomes out of the midst.


Nowhere in that is Apostle Paul saying that son of peridition was already... revealed at that time. The idea of the revealing of v.6-8 is about the appearance of that Antichrist. Paul's "And now you know" idea is simply about his message of warning here to be on watch for the revealing of that coming false one.

This is easily understood by the fact that the 6-8 verses REQUIRE the one doing the withholding be first taken out of the way. He did not declare there that that had already taken place in those days.

But you will just continue to fabricate stories you've learned from the doctrines of men about that, because it's obvious our Lord Jesus has not given to you to understand. Anyone... who can't understand about the final coming Antichrist aren't given to understand Paul's message of warning there, the same warning he gave elsewhere, even Apostle John also did, and even as our Lord Jesus Himself also did in His Olivet Discourse.

We are not talking about the wrath of God. We are talking about tribulation. That's an example of how pretribulationism is one fabrication built upon another. You've changed the meaning of God's wrath, the last trump, The elect of Mathew 24, the timing and meaning of day of the Lord and marriage supper of the Lamb, and the timing of the harpazo of 2Thes. 2 as opposed to the revelation of the man of sin. Like I said...one fabrication built upon another. Every verse you quote about escaping God's wrath is taken out of context. God's wrath isn't averted by a rapture in those verses. It's attributed to salvation and averted for all Christian's who have repented and accepted Christ since the day he died. It's absolutely senseless to attribute the exemption of wrath in these verses to anything but salvation.


Show me how you arrive at your conclusion. The passage isn't saying that. There are several verses that indicate that the Day of the Lord is at the end of tribulation. But not one verse says that the day of the Lord occurs at tribulation's onset. And not one verse that says Christ returns before the tribulation. So you guys have had to change the Day of the Lord into a seven year period by fabricating one thing upon another changing meanings and timing of His Word. It's crazy to say the Day of the Lord is at the beginning of tribulation because it creates so many contradictions with other verses.
Show me those contradictions. I know that they're always based upon your fabrications. EVERY ONE OF THE CONTRADICTIOS YOU WOULD QUOTE COME FROM YOUR PRECONCEIVED FABRICATIONS. And here are the words of Jesus. Where you fabricate another rapture soley for Jews.

The Coming of the Son of Man
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If it's plain and simple why is it that the pretrib doctrine is the most complicated and extensive doctrine that has ever entered the Church? It takes volumes of books to fabricate the fantasy. And why is it that without changing the meaning of any words in the text, it only takes one verse by the words of Jesus to prove without a doubt the gathering takes place after the tribulation?


I would prophesy that you and millions are left in the dark!


The word 'eklektos' means Christians. If you want to go to Strongs, Thayers, Vines, or anyone else to see the meaning of the New Testament Word "eklektos" lets have at it. Not once in the New Testament is the word used to signify Jews that I know of. In every verse I quoted the context of the passage is clear that Christian's are indicated. But none of this matters to you. The word elect in the OT always meant God's Chosen people. But in the New Testament since Christ rose and the church began the word always means CHRISTIANS.


It's classic of pertribber's to bring up Daniel's 70th week in all of this. I'm not a believer in the gap theory. But yes the rapture does gather from earth right here...IN REVELATION 14!

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] "Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
Reaping the Earth’s Harvest

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] "Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
It's also incredible to me that you would quote Isaiah 43 and Jeremiah 31. This is talkig about Israel's present day restoration back to the land. And try to tell me it's the gathering of Mathew 24. These kind of flagrant misinterpretations is what makes arguing this fruitless and useless.


What's with the "ha ha" stuff?


Why is it too simple for you....

JESUS SAID...

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Perhaps we should just take it to Strong's, Vines, Thayers, Wuest, and of course the interlinear. I have them all and can help the argument quite well.


At least your willing to admit that your theory and fabrications are based on your opinions.

What you've said is accurately backed up by The Scriptures of God's Word.

Trumpeter said:

The wrath of God is poured out during the great tribulation.

No, it is not.

The time of God's wrath upon the wicked is at the end... of the great tribulation, as revealed in Rev.16 & 19 with Christ's coming on the 7th Vial. It perfectly agrees with the timing our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 about His coming after the tribulation of those days.

The day of God's wrath as written of by His OT prophets has always been Biblically linked with the "day of the Lord" events, and those linked events on that day is about the defeat of ALL the wicked here on earth by our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is returning only one time, and Biblically He comes to conquer on that day, ending the great tribulation. That also is the very timing Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thess.2 also.

In 2 Thess.2:1-2 verses, Paul was showing how some men had crept into the Church there that were trying to mislead them about the timing of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's who those on the Pre-Trib Rapture theory are listening to, those false ones that would pass fake letters around the Church as if they were written by Christ's Apostles.

That reveals even back to Apostle Paul's days, there were false prophets among them trying to change the timing of Christ's second coming and the gathering of His Church to some other time than after the great tribulation like Jesus said.

 

[aspen]

The Church already endured it - and has been enduring strife ever since.

 

[michaelvpardo]

i have some new things for thought to those who don't believe in the pretrib.

let us start with who are the 24 elders in revelations(rev 4:4)?
These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, a sign of royalty. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing the Greek “stephanos” crown, so they’re victors, overcomers. They’re called Elders, a title long associated with Christianity. So far we have a pretty strong case for them representing the Church. But there’s more.
Some try to explain the 24 thrones by saying that they belong to a group of ruling angels. But four Prophets saw the throne of God and recorded their experience. They were Isaiah (Isaiah 6), Ezekiel (Ezek. 1 & 10), Daniel (Dan. 7), and John (Rev. 4). In their descriptions, neither Isaiah nor Ezekiel made any mention of the 24 elders indicating that they weren’t present in Old Testament times. Daniel’s vision concerned the End Times and in Dan. 7:9 he mentioned multiple thrones but didn’t add any details to number or type of occupants. This is consistent with the fact that the Church was hidden to Old Testament prophets even in visions of the future. Only John made mention of the 24 Elders. And note that these elders are wearing the crowns of over comers. The Church won’t receive crowns until the Bema Seat judgment that takes place after the Rapture.

These elders represent every New Testament Christian. In Old Testament days there were 24 priests on duty at a time, but they represented all of the priests. Hence, these 24 probably represent all of the priests. The Bible teaches that every New Testament Christian is his own priest, so these 24 represent all of us who are saved. Praise God, all of His children are priests.

God bless

The elders aren't assisting God.. The Lord created all things by the word of His mouth; He spoke them into being and He holds all things together by His will. He doesn't need anyone's help or assistance, but has given seats to His elders as an act of His grace, giving them greater responsibility in as much as they have demonstrated themselves as worthy of His trust. Anything else makes God out to be something less than who He is.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:





"Ha ha ha! You have dug yourself into a hole! Now you have made Michael falling away. Now who is stretching?
You missed Paul's argument. He said in verse 6, "and now you know" who the restrainer is - so that he can be revealed at his time. HOW could they know? Because Paul just TOLD THEM"

-----------------

You must be mad. Here is what Apostle Paul said...

II Th 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what (Greek ho) withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the (Greek ho) mystery of (Greek ho) iniquity doth already work: only he (Greek ho) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

The Greek (ho) above is a definite article, i.e., the, this, that, one, he, she, it. It's the same Greek article translated as "he" in the 7th verse.

The "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" is not the best translation from the Greek, but it's accurate enough. The Greek of that phrase is 'ho katecho arti katecho heos ginomai ek mesos'.


The most accurate translation of that verse 7 phrase is -- 'he, she, it' that holds down just now holds down until becomes out of the midst.


Nowhere in that is Apostle Paul saying that son of peridition was already... revealed at that time. The idea of the revealing of v.6-8 is about the appearance of that Antichrist. Paul's "And now you know" idea is simply about his message of warning here to be on watch for the revealing of that coming false one.

This is easily understood by the fact that the 6-8 verses REQUIRE the one doing the withholding be first taken out of the way. He did not declare there that that had already taken place in those days.

But you will just continue to fabricate stories you've learned from the doctrines of men about that, because it's obvious our Lord Jesus has not given to you to understand. Anyone... who can't understand about the final coming Antichrist aren't given to understand Paul's message of warning there, the same warning he gave elsewhere, even Apostle John also did, and even as our Lord Jesus Himself also did in His Olivet Discourse.







What you've said is accurately backed up by The Scriptures of God's Word.






No, it is not.

The time of God's wrath upon the wicked is at the end... of the great tribulation, as revealed in Rev.16 & 19 with Christ's coming on the 7th Vial. It perfectly agrees with the timing our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 about His coming after the tribulation of those days.

The day of God's wrath as written of by His OT prophets has always been Biblically linked with the "day of the Lord" events, and those linked events on that day is about the defeat of ALL the wicked here on earth by our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is returning only one time, and Biblically He comes to conquer on that day, ending the great tribulation. That also is the very timing Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thess.2 also.
In 2 Thess.2:1-2 verses, Paul was showing how some men had crept into the Church there that were trying to mislead them about the timing of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's who those on the Pre-Trib Rapture theory are listening to, those false ones that would pass fake letters around the Church as if they were written by Christ's Apostles.

That reveals even back to Apostle Paul's days, there were false prophets among them trying to change the timing of Christ's second coming and the gathering of His Church to some other time than after the great tribulation like Jesus said.

Sorry, Veteran, but even if you say taken or removed from the midst, you totally have missed the intent of the author. Let's look again, since you did not see the first time.

New International Version (©2011)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
International Standard Version (©2012)
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
NET Bible (©2006)
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

There can be no doubt of Paul's argument: The real way to tell of the Day of the Lord has come, is when TWO EVENTS occur - the second event being the revealing of the man of sin. There can be no doubt, in verse 3 he has been revealed.

If we believe verses 6-8, the ONLY WAY he can be revealed is for the one restraining him to be taken or removed from the midst or even taken out of the way. They are both really saying the same thing; the restraining force MUST BE removed before the man of sin will be revealed.

Since he IS REVEALED in verse 3-B and since Paul said NOW YOU KNOW, there is only one conclusion: verse 3 tells us WHO the restrainer is, and shows us HIS REMOVAL. Therefore, since you believe in the "fallen away" translation, you have made Michael the one fallen away, since you insist he is the one restraining.

Paul is NOT SAYING he was revealed in those days! I was not saying that. Notice the beginning of verse 3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless...."

When the "unless" is fulfilled, then he will be revealed - a very simple concept. Paul is giving us two events that will tell people WHEN the day of the Lord has come. Paul; wrote is as if it already happened; the one restraining removed and they man of sin revealed. Of course we know this is still future to us, but the way Paul wrote it, the man of sin "is revealed" when the one restraining is removed.

And Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."

It is very sad, for you still don't know who the restrainer is. Paul wrote this so they would know. Sorry, it is not me that lacks understanding here, it is you. It is the RAPTURE of the church that removes the one restraining. Michael is not the restrainer. May I suggest you remove preconceived glasses and try again?

"The time of God's wrath upon the wicked is at the end... of the great tribulation, as revealed in Rev.16 & 19 with Christ's coming on the 7th Vial. It perfectly agrees with the timing our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 about His coming after the tribulation of those days."

Sorry, statements like this prove you still don't understand. You need to study chapters 6-8 again. The first trumpet is the start of destruction which is the start of His wrath, just as it is written "the day of His wrath has come." This is so simple a 5th grader could get it. They would not be questioning His word.

Back to Revelation 101!

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Lamad said:


"Sorry, Veteran, but even if you say taken or removed from the midst, you totally have missed the intent of the author. Let's look again, since you did not see the first time."

All those different... Bible translations are just deceiving you. Try taking that Scripture back to the Greek using a simple Strong's Concordance. Wait! I already did that for you didn't I? Yes, I did.

You should have discovered the 1611 King James Version is the most accurate of ALL... those others. (Which is why of course you INTENTIONALLY left out the 1611 KJV in your version quotes!)

There can be no doubt of Paul's argument: The real way to tell of the Day of the Lord has come, is when TWO EVENTS occur - the second event being the revealing of the man of sin. There can be no doubt, in verse 3 he has been revealed.

What?!? The easiest way to tell when the "day of the Lord" is per The New Testament, is by staying... with the Scriptures. In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul linked the day of The Lord with Christ's coming "as a thief", because Christ Himself said in Rev.16:15 that He comes... "as a thief".

In 2 Peter 3:10, Apostle Peter substantianted Paul's timing of that day also, and gave more detail of what happens on that day too, like the elements of man's works being burned off the earth. And that further links to the day of The Lord events given in The Old Testament Books of God's prophets. That's another reason why Peter said to be mindful of what God's holy prophets wrote also.

But per the false Pre-Trib Doctrine you're on, it claims the day of The Lord events happen PRIOR to the "great tribulation", as if Satan's host can still be in power on the earth after man's works are burned off it? No way! That's a ludicrous idea. When Peter's "elements" are burned, the power of Christ's enemies on earth is OVER, DONE, NO MORE! Amazing that you haven't figured that out yet which shows how un-Biblical and foolish their Pre-Trib theories are.

You have left the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

If we believe verses 6-8, the ONLY WAY he can be revealed is for the one restraining him to be taken or removed from the midst or even taken out of the way. They are both really saying the same thing; the restraining force MUST BE removed before the man of sin will be revealed.

That's right, the one doing the withholding must FIRST be taken out of the way, out of the midst, etc. Does Paul say anywhere that the one who withholds was removed out of the way? NOPE! It was not time yet in his days.

But the REAL question is, 'revealed' to WHOM??? Who would that son of perdition be revealed to once the one who withholds is removed out of the way?

It's simple to say Christ's Church is who that false one would be revealed to, however because of Paul's 'apostasia', that's not the case for ALL believers on Christ, for many will be deceived as to the actual identity of that false messiah; but not Christ's elect. His elect will know before that false one ever appears, and will 'know' to not bow to him thinking he is our Lord Jesus Christ having returned and sitting in the new temple in Jerusalem which the orthodox Jews are ready to build today.

Since he IS REVEALED in verse 3-B and since Paul said NOW YOU KNOW, there is only one conclusion: verse 3 tells us WHO the restrainer is, and shows us HIS REMOVAL.

That "and now you know" by Paul is for those who UNDERSTAND and HEED his warning there. Many brethren today still... do not understand Paul's warning about that false messiah, for they listen to doctrines of men instead.
II Th 2:5-6
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(KJV)

That "And now ye know" you're trying to apply differently is simply about Paul giving His warning Message about the coming of the Antichrist to them, once again. Since Paul gave more specifics this second time of his warning, like recognizing that coming false messiah by his setting himself up as God in the temple, claiming to be God, and over all that is CALLED God or that is worshipped, that's a very CLEAR warning. You can't go trying to apply that "And now ye know" by itself, because it's tied to the 7-8 verses subject.

Paul did not define... WHO your so-called 'restrainer' is in that 2 Thess.2 Scripture. One MUST study that point elsewhere in God's Word to understand it. You clearly have NOT done that study, even though I've already pointed you to it!

No, the one withholding has NOT been removed out of the way yet today. That false one coming to sit in the temple and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is called... God, or that is worshipped, is THE MAIN REQUIREMENT from Apostle Paul! So stop INTENTIONALLY trying to DENY that point as if it is not even written there!

Therefore, since you believe in the "fallen away" translation, you have made Michael the one fallen away, since you insist he is the one restraining.

That is a totally idiotic statement! Since when did Paul's usage of the term 'apostasia' in Greek get deleted??? It's not deleted in my Bible, nor the Greek manuscripts. Moreover, I didn't translate that Greek word to "falling away", the KJV translators did. But it is GOOD ENOUGH to describe Paul's usage of the Greek word 'apostasia'. And Strong's definition of 'apostasia' is good also; it means 'defection from the truth' (Strong's no. 646). Paul gave another little Message later in that chapter about that idea of those who receive not the truth being subject to the "strong delusion", now didn't he? Yep!

Paul is NOT SAYING he was revealed in those days! I was not saying that. Notice the beginning of verse 3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless...."

When the "unless" is fulfilled, then he will be revealed - a very simple concept. Paul is giving us two events that will tell people WHEN the day of the Lord has come. Paul; wrote is as if it already happened; the one restraining removed and they man of sin revealed. Of course we know this is still future to us, but the way Paul wrote it, the man of sin "is revealed" when the one restraining is removed.

You're wrong with your statement about the day of The Lord happening right when that false one comes. Paul in this 2 Thess.2 chapter wasn't giving specifics of the "great tribulation" short time that our Lord Jesus did in His Olivet Discourse. Paul only gave a warning that the Antichrist must come first, and the apostasia must happen first, and then described briefly how the false one will cause the apostasia. All power of the false one and Christ's enemies on earth is over on the "day of the Lord". So just because Paul didn't cover how long the Antichrist will have power on earth here, doesn't mean to go assuming something different than what our Lord Jesus already showed about it. How long that short time will be is given mainly in the Book of Daniel and in our Lord's Book of Revelation.

And Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."

Nah, don't leave out the rest of that verse, and the 7th and 8th verses that go with it.

II Th 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

How is it, that YOU say Christ's coming on the day of The Lord is PRIOR to the great tribulation when that Scripture above is exactly... about the time of the tribulation ending with Christ coming to DESTROY that false one with the "brightness of His coming"???

You'd have to call right as wrong, and good as evil, to get mixed up on that!

It is very sad, for you still don't know who the restrainer is. Paul wrote this so they would know. Sorry, it is not me that lacks understanding here, it is you. It is the RAPTURE of the church that removes the one restraining. Michael is not the restrainer. May I suggest you remove preconceived glasses and try again?

I know who it is that's doing the withholding of the coming Antichrist, but you don't. Paul gave his Message of warning there so we would be watching and looking for that Antichrist to show up and do what he said. Simple as that. Once again your doctrine directly CONTRADICTS the 2 Thess.2:8 verse as written. The Antichrist comes first, then Christ's coming on the day of The Lord to destroy him. But you say, Christ comes first, and then the Antichrist appears and does his thing on earth, which shows how totally screwed up your mind is! (Or, that you don't care and will tell LIES just to push your belief here on the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory).

Don't think for a minute you won't be held to the LIE you're telling. You will be, unless you repent and start listening to Christ in His Word instead of false prophets.

 

[John S]

Veteran -
1. I give you credit for your stamina to be able to go around and around with these people on this subject. You are not getting anywhere - nor will you anytime soon - but yet you continue. You have alot more stamina than I have.
2. A site that I left before signing onto this one, threatened me with "dismissal" for saying the things that you have been saying. If you want to remain on that site you have to toe the Pre-Trib Rapture "party line" - or else.
3. BTW - On my since deceased thread, which I closed, about making plans, not one person even plans on taking care of their pets before they "leave" - not one on 3 sites. In fact, I was the one who was chastised for being too sarcastic and confrontational. God is going to feed and water the animals. Forget about non-religious children. They're also on their own. I would have thought that SOME people would display a warmer heart. Now I know better. Oh Well.