Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?

BreadOfLife · Mar 9, 2024

Peterlag said:
May I have a verse that I spoke about as a babe in Christ? Such a concept is impossible for me which is probably why you will not come up with a verse since I'm one of the most knowledgeable experienced guys in the world on the knowledge of the resurrected Christ.

Peterlag said:
So what you're saying is an expert in a certain field should tell the amateur that they are better and you quote Philippians to prove your point. Try that on the operating table. Tell the Doc's to bring in the less qualified so you can practice Philippians 2:3.

Puttubg aside the pathetic arrogance - the ONLY thing you've shown to be an "expert" on is dogding challenges to provide actual Scriptural and histprcal dosumentatpn for your asiine claims.

"Knowledgeable" in the ar of deflection and nothing else . . .

Peterlag · Mar 9, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Puttubg aside the pathetic arrogance - the ONLY thing you've shown to be an "expert" on is dogding challenges to provide actual Scriptural and histprcal dosumentatpn for your asiine claims.

"Knowledgeable" in the ar of deflection and nothing else . . .

I provide a lot of Scripture and when I do you call it my opinion.

BreadOfLife · Mar 9, 2024

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
As I have said I have found nowhere in Scripture that immortality is applied to Jesus before his death. Also from my research of the word immortality, my understanding is that it means, deathlessness, and refers to the quality of life that is enjoyed, its endlessness and indestructibility. So I don't see how Jesus could have been put to death if that's the meaning of immortality, and he had immortality when he was a human on earth.

Not so fast.

We will ALL die because that is wjat is requieed of us - and we don't have a chouce. Jesus didn't have to die - He CHOSE to die. He could have libed forever.
Phil. 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

According to Psalm 91, Jesus was protected from harm:
Psalm 91:11-12
For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; hey will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

If He didn't go willingly tpo the cross - there is NO way they could have killed Him.

BreadOfLife · Mar 9, 2024

Peterlag said:
I provide a lot of Scripture and when I do you call it my opinion.

No - I call it opinion because you don't provide Scripture.

When I provide Scripture - as I usually di - YOU call it "scattered verses" . . .

BreadOfLife · Mar 9, 2024

Spyder said:
Verse please?

Sure.

The Son is God
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:9, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13

The Son is a Man
1 Tim. 2:5, John 1:14, Mark 14:62, John 3:13, Luke 19:10, Matt. 8:20, Mark 10:45, Luke 5:24, Matt. 26:64, Matt. 20:28

The Learner · Mar 9, 2024

Spyder said:
Verse please?

Part of it is here: https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

A text off the top of my head aka google.

Philippians 2:6-8

Easy-to-Read Version

6 He was like God in every way,
but he did not think that his being equal with God was something to use for his own benefit.
7 Instead, he gave up everything, even his place with God.
He accepted the role of a servant, appearing in human form.
During his life as a man,
8 he humbled himself by being fully obedient to God,
even when that caused his death—death on a cross.

I will be kicked off soon, and may have to revist it later.

Peterlag · Mar 9, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
No - I call it opinion because you don't provide Scripture.

When I provide Scripture - as I usually di - YOU call it "scattered verses" . . .

I do hold back on that trinity subject. But not because I can't or will not provide much. It's because when I do management locks the post. But let's try a few verses...

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."
Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."
Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."
The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

The Learner · Mar 9, 2024

How was Jesus fully God and fully man? | GotQuestions.org

How was Jesus fully God and fully man? What does it mean that Jesus is fully God? What does it mean that Jesus is fully man?

www.gotquestions.org

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God?

Bible verses about Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God

www.openbible.info

Googled outline Jesus fully man fully God

The Learner · Mar 9, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Sure.

The Son is God
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:9, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13

The Son is a Man
1 Tim. 2:5, John 1:14, Mark 14:62, John 3:13, Luke 19:10, Matt. 8:20, Mark 10:45, Luke 5:24, Matt. 26:64, Matt. 20:28

bumpo

RedFan · Mar 9, 2024

Peterlag said:
So what you're saying is an expert in a certain field should tell the amateur that they are better and you quote Philippians to prove your point. Try that on the operating table. Tell the Doc's to bring in the less qualified so you can practice Philippians 2:3.

Q.E.D., folks!

The Learner · Mar 9, 2024

Peterlag said:
I do hold back on that trinity subject. But not because I can't or will not provide much. It's because when I do management locks the post. But let's try a few verses...

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.

Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."

Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."

Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.

A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."

The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."

Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

Acts 1 shows that authority is by choice.

The Learner · Mar 9, 2024

Spyder said:
Verse please?

The Son is God
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:9, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13

The Son is a Man
1 Tim. 2:5, John 1:14, Mark 14:62, John 3:13, Luke 19:10, Matt. 8:20, Mark 10:45, Luke 5:24, Matt. 26:64, Matt. 20:28

Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?

May I have a verse that I spoke about as a babe in Christ? Such a concept is impossible for me which is probably why you will not come up with a verse since I'm one of the most knowledgeable experienced guys in the world on the knowledge of the resurrected Christ. So what you're saying is an...

www.christianityboard.com

Peterlag · Mar 9, 2024

The Learner said:
Acts 1 shows that authority is by choice.

There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:

Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
“Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
“Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

O'Darby · Mar 10, 2024

I find the concept of an "expert" on the resurrected Jesus inherently comical. All we actually know are the Gospel accounts, and they are not entirely consistent. Dr. Gary Habermas recently published a two-volume, 2,000-page scholarly work on the Resurrection, and from what I understand a third volume is planned - surely inherently comical as well.

Spyder · Mar 10, 2024

The Learner said:
The Son is God
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:9, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13

The Son is a Man
1 Tim. 2:5, John 1:14, Mark 14:62, John 3:13, Luke 19:10, Matt. 8:20, Mark 10:45, Luke 5:24, Matt. 26:64, Matt. 20:28

Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?

May I have a verse that I spoke about as a babe in Christ? Such a concept is impossible for me which is probably why you will not come up with a verse since I'm one of the most knowledgeable experienced guys in the world on the knowledge of the resurrected Christ. So what you're saying is an...

www.christianityboard.com

I really want to believe that you are attempting to prove your point with these verses and not trying to simply waste time. The verses you list here prove nothing about Yeshua being "fully God." So, since you bothered to answer, I took the time to look them up to see if I were missing something. Yeshua was "fully man" but born in the fullness of His Father's nature. There was definitely something different about Him.

Isaiah 7:14 = was a dual prophecy for a son to Ahaz and later quoted for the Messiah. Immanuel does not mean "is God" but means that "God is with us." God is with us today, but none of us are God.

Isaiah 9:6, = Yeshua was never called "Mighty God" or "Everlasting Father." Yeshua said that He came to divide, not to bring peace. This verse is about Hezekiah.

Matt. 4:7, = Nothing in this verse says that Yeshua is God.

John 1:1, = IN all of our New Testament is logos capitalized until translators made it so in the KJV. It has always meant "communication" or "statement." Yahweh spoke things into being.

John 1:3, = changing the true meaning of "auto" into "him" is a practice made only in the last 400 years. It was always translated either "it" or "the same" referring to Yahweh's statement.

John 8:58, = I see that you don't understand the Jewish concept of preexistance. Perhaps a google search is in order.

John 10:30, = If this verse means that Yeshua is God, then we are God as well: John 17:11

John 14:9, = now read verse 10. Yeshua was born of the fullness of Yahweh - He has Yahwehs spirit in full measure. He worked for God.

John 20:28, = the term "god" was common in those days, and it was used of any people in authority. Thomas' statement did not declare Yeshua to be Yahweh. That would be abhorrent to a Jew.

2 Corinthians 4:4, = you do realize that an image of a thing is not really that thing, right?

Phil. 2:6, = in this verse, the word "form" means "to reflect," and Yeshua was not inclined to claim to be His Father. He only reflected His Father.

Col. 2:9, = yes, refer to what I said about John 14:9. Yeshua had the fullness of His Father from birth. That does not mean that He IS His Father.

1 Tim. 3:16, = as already stated, Yeshua's task was to reveal His Father to Israel. Manifest does not mean "became"

Heb. 1:8, all scripture must agree - if translated correctly:

1 Co 8:5–6 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Jn 5:44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Titus 2:13 = "glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" Two beings are being referred to here, not one.

1 Tim. 2:5, = I fail to see this as supporting the trinity. "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"

John 1:14, = Yeshua came to give Israel the statements of His Father. There is noting about He being God.

Mark 14:62, = nothing in this passage about Yeshua being Yahweh.

John 3:13, = for the Jew, anything that came from Yahweh "came down from Heaven." That does not indicate a physical journey

Luke 19:10, = I fail to see your point with this one

Matt. 8:20, = Another verse that fails to prove anything

Mark 10:45, = Another verse that fails to prove anything

Luke 5:24, = Yes, Yeshua did claim to authority on Earth was given to Him by His Father while He was there. It was "GIVEN" Likewise, when He ascended, he was GIVEN authority on Earth and in Heaven. He has NO AUTHORITY from himself.

Matt. 26:64, = seated at the "right hand" of power, not being the power

Matt. 20:28 = this verse shows that Yeshua came as Messiah.

Peterlag · Mar 10, 2024

O'Darby said:
I find the concept of an "expert" on the resurrected Jesus inherently comical. All we actually know are the Gospel accounts, and they are not entirely consistent. Dr. Gary Habermas recently published a two-volume, 2,000-page scholarly work on the Resurrection, and from what I understand a third volume is planned - surely inherently comical as well.

There is no record in the Gospels that give data concerning the resurrected Christ. An expert would know that. The Gospels give data about Jesus. I quote one of my teachers in my own writing and you can view it here...

A distinction must be made between the various usages and combinations of his name: Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, and Lord Jesus Christ. Failing to make these distinctions and assuming that they are all used interchangeably clouds certain essential insights that are critical for christological accuracy. Basically, the usage of these terms is indicative of two distinctions. One is about his person, his humility when he was here upon the earth. The other is about his exaltation. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says the word “Christ” appears “when there is reference to the work or redemption.” (1) This term emphasizes not so much the person of Christ as the job he was sent to do. This becomes very important when we understand Christ Jesus as he functions today with the power of God that has been placed within him.

The word "Christ" means "anointed" which leads to the obvious question, with what? Acts 10:38, says "with the holy spirit and with power." The holy spirit was upon men by measure in the Old Testament (2 Kings 2:9), Jesus received it without measure (John 3:34). So his messianic works were accomplished by the power of the holy spirit upon him, and it is those works in which he is presently engaged that is the referent of the word "Christ" in biblical usage. "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27), refers not to a person but to the same enablement of the holy spirit without measure that Jesus received to become the "Christ."

"Jesus" refers to his earthly life and mission prior to being risen from the dead. "Jesus Christ" refers to the person who is the Son of God seated at the right hand of God. It is he with whom we have fellowship (1John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 1:9). Though he is the exalted Christ seated at the right hand of God, he is personally acquainted with every member of his body, his brothers and sisters (Hebrews 2:11). "Christ Jesus" emphasizes his exalted position at the right hand of God, and the legal rights and privileges that have resulted from his accomplishments. This compound form of his name is most often used with "in" and "by" emphasizing not his person but his works.

God has highly exalted the Christ, and gave him a name, which is above every name. Thus, "Christ" became the name of his changed position; after he was raised from the dead, and exalted in glory. "Christ" in the Epistles denotes our position, blessing, and standing before God. In Christ, never in Jesus, marks him as the now glorified one who was once humbled. The combination with "Lord" marks his authority and power. "God hath made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). (2)

RedFan · Mar 10, 2024

Peterlag said:
"Jesus" refers to his earthly life and mission prior to being risen from the dead.

The reference to "Jesus" in 1 Thess. 1:10 strikes me as a reference to him in his post-resurrection status. Still, I am happy to adopt your definition of "Jesus" as limited to pre-resurrecetion status, despite Paul's apparent disagreement with it in this passage. But what follows from this? That the gospel accounts of the risen Christ don't apply to "Jesus?" That semantic distinction gets us nowhere.

Ronald David Bruno · Mar 10, 2024

Fred J said:
'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the FATHER,) full of grace and truth.' (John 1:14)

'And also written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.' (1 Corinthians 15:45)

'The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from Heaven.' (1 Corinthians 15:47)

How can we witness to others using the sound doctrine knowledge of the Holy Bible, if such a question arise ?

One is mortal until they put on immortality. He did, He was resurrected.
Spiritually_ of course _ He is God _ so we are just speaking of His bodily resurrection that we will have.
Interesting though it makes me think that simply all are mortal. What does that mean? We all physically die, but then what about our souls? They are mortal too and will expierance death unless they put on immortality, which is in effect bring born again in Christ.

O'Darby · Mar 10, 2024

Peterlag said:
There is no record in the Gospels that give data concerning the resurrected Christ. An expert would know that. The Gospels give data about Jesus. I quote one of my teachers in my own writing and you can view it here...

A distinction must be made between the various usages and combinations of his name: Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, and Lord Jesus Christ. Failing to make these distinctions and assuming that they are all used interchangeably clouds certain essential insights that are critical for christological accuracy. Basically, the usage of these terms is indicative of two distinctions. One is about his person, his humility when he was here upon the earth. The other is about his exaltation. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says the word “Christ” appears “when there is reference to the work or redemption.” (1) This term emphasizes not so much the person of Christ as the job he was sent to do. This becomes very important when we understand Christ Jesus as he functions today with the power of God that has been placed within him.

The word "Christ" means "anointed" which leads to the obvious question, with what? Acts 10:38, says "with the holy spirit and with power." The holy spirit was upon men by measure in the Old Testament (2 Kings 2:9), Jesus received it without measure (John 3:34). So his messianic works were accomplished by the power of the holy spirit upon him, and it is those works in which he is presently engaged that is the referent of the word "Christ" in biblical usage. "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27), refers not to a person but to the same enablement of the holy spirit without measure that Jesus received to become the "Christ."

"Jesus" refers to his earthly life and mission prior to being risen from the dead. "Jesus Christ" refers to the person who is the Son of God seated at the right hand of God. It is he with whom we have fellowship (1John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 1:9). Though he is the exalted Christ seated at the right hand of God, he is personally acquainted with every member of his body, his brothers and sisters (Hebrews 2:11). "Christ Jesus" emphasizes his exalted position at the right hand of God, and the legal rights and privileges that have resulted from his accomplishments. This compound form of his name is most often used with "in" and "by" emphasizing not his person but his works.

God has highly exalted the Christ, and gave him a name, which is above every name. Thus, "Christ" became the name of his changed position; after he was raised from the dead, and exalted in glory. "Christ" in the Epistles denotes our position, blessing, and standing before God. In Christ, never in Jesus, marks him as the now glorified one who was once humbled. The combination with "Lord" marks his authority and power. "God hath made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). (2)

And you think this makes you a world-class expert on the resurrected Jesus? It is certainly one view as to "how it works," and I'm not even in violent disagreement with it, but it's just one more human attempt to make sense in a connect-the-dots sort of way with something that is fundamentally an unfathomable mystery. It's your little mental framework for thinking about Jesus. The term "expert" in reference to the resurrected Christ is indeed inherently comical; if you recognized this reality and dropped the "expert" pose, people might be more receptive to what you have to say.

RedFan · Mar 10, 2024

O'Darby said:
And you think this makes you a world-class expert on the resurrected Jesus? It is certainly one view as to "how it works," and I'm not even in violent disagreement with it, but it's just one more human attempt to make sense in a connect-the-dots sort of way with something that is fundamentally an unfathomable mystery. It's your little mental framework for thinking about Jesus. The term "expert" in reference to the resurrected Christ is indeed inherently comical; if you recognized this reality and dropped the "expert" pose, people might be more receptive to what you have to say.

I agree. Paul states in 2 Cor. 10:18 that it is not those who commend themselves who are approved.

Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?

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Philippians 2:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version ​

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Philippians 2:6-8

Easy-to-Read Version