The 144,000 before God at the end.

covenantee · Mar 20, 2024

rebuilder 454 said:
So an ethnic Jew dynamic makes God a racist?
Paul made the distinction in himself.
God actually made the JEWISH race of people .
They have always been preferred and separate by God himself.
Bringing in the wokeness of racism is ridiculous.

The Jewish race was never "preferred and separate" because the nation was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from the beginning.

Paul identifies the genuine Jew:

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Nothing to do with race.

God is not a racist.

Nor can He be contorted into one.

brightfame52 · Mar 20, 2024

The 144000 are clothed in Christs Imputed Righteousness, we know this because, there was no guile Rev 14

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Thats because God views them clothed in Christs Righteousness 1 Pet 2

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

ewq1938 · Mar 20, 2024

brightfame52 said:
They are the same, the redeemed, the Saved

No, that's shared characteristics. The 24 elders who sing are not the 144,000 males who learn a song. At a concert, is the band performing and singing the same people who are in the audience listening? No? You are saying they are the same people.

You are wrong.

You don't know what you are talking about.

You haven't properly studied the two passages enough to teach anything about any of this.

ewq1938 · Mar 20, 2024

TribulationSigns said:
Correct.

Rev 7:4
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Those who attempt to read Revelation as a literal narrative must say that this means that only literally 144,000 Jews are converted.

It says sealed not converted. You have changed the wording to change the meaning to make a false point. This is not about the amount of converted Jews of all the tribes ever but only a select amount who are sealed in relation to the end times trib.

Traveler · Mar 20, 2024

covenantee said:
The Jewish race was never "preferred and separate" because the nation was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from the beginning.

Paul identifies the genuine Jew:

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Nothing to do with race.

God is not a racist.

Nor can He be contorted into one.

When God established his covenant with the 12 tribes of Israel at mount Sioni just after the exodus, no gentile nations were represented. The old laws only apply to the Israelites, not the Gentiles,

covenantee · Mar 20, 2024

Traveler said:
When God established his covenant with the 12 tribes of Israel at mount Sioni just after the exodus, no gentile nations were represented. The old laws only apply to the Israelites, not the Gentiles,

Israelites were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 21, 2024

covenantee said:
Israelites were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Due to doctrine you torture the bible.
You got some NEED for a false dynamic that a race that sprang up from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are not a separate and preferred people God covenanted with and Blessed.
I suppose in the listing of Tribes ,the 144k are taken frim, you got a way to muddy that up as well.
You now have a need to disenfranchise that fact as well.
One changed dynamic will need many more modified verses to sustain the false doctrine your teachers formulated.
So simple
So plain.
144k ethnic Jews with ancestral tribes listed.
You got a real problem there friend.

covenantee · Mar 21, 2024

rebuilder 454 said:
Due to doctrine you torture the bible.
You got some NEED for a false dynamic that a race that sprang up from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are not a separate and preferred people God covenanted with and Blessed.
I suppose in the listing of Tribes ,the 144k are taken frim, you got a way to muddy that up as well.
You now have a need to disenfranchise that fact as well.
One changed dynamic will need many more modified verses to sustain the false doctrine your teachers formulated.
So simple
So plain.
144k ethnic Jews with ancestral tribes listed.
You got a real problem there friend.

"not of thy seed"

So simple.
So plain.
So Scriptural.
So antiracist.
So irrefutable.

What/Who has the problem?
1. Scripture
2. You

Need a hint?

Keraz · Mar 21, 2024

rebuilder 454 said:
144k ethnic Jews with ancestral tribes listed.
You got a real problem there friend.

Your fundamental error is to call Jews of the House of Judah, all of Israel.
In over 160 Bible verses, all Israel is clearly defined as the people of the House of Judah, known to us today as the Jews. and the people of the House of Israel, who were the 10 Northern tribes, taken away to exile in ancient times and scattered among the nations.
Today, they can be identified as the Christian peoples, by descent or by their Christian faith. They are the true Israelites of God, the Overcomers for God.

So; your belief as above, is wrong, as ethnic Jews belong to Judah, not to any of the other tribes.

ewq1938 · Mar 21, 2024

Keraz said:
Your fundamental error is to call Jews of the House of Judah, all of Israel.
In over 160 Bible verses, all Israel is clearly defined as the people of the House of Judah, known to us today as the Jews. and the people of the House of Israel, who were the 10 Northern tribes, taken away to exile in ancient times and scattered among the nations.
Today, they can be identified as the Christian peoples, by descent or by their Christian faith. They are the true Israelites of God, the Overcomers for God.

So; your belief as above, is wrong, as ethnic Jews belong to Judah, not to any of the other tribes.

You are wrong overall because even scripture uses the name of Jew to stand for all of Israel:

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Here "Jew" means anyone of the tribes of Israel while "Greek" means any gentile. "Jew" did eventually become a term that could be used of any Israelite from any tribe.

Keraz · Mar 21, 2024

ewq1938 said:
You are wrong overall because even scripture uses the name of Jew to stand for all of Israel:

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Here "Jew" means anyone of the tribes of Israel while "Greek" means any gentile. "Jew" did eventually become a term that could be used of any Israelite from any tribe.

In modern usage; maybe. Personally I am careful to delineate between Jews of the House of Judah and Israel, the other ten tribes, as all the Bible Prophets do.
The thing is, they will eventually rejoin, Jeremiah 50:4-5, as one people; all faithful Christians, living in all of the holy Land.
Great will be the Day!

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

covenantee said:
"not of thy seed"

So simple.
So plain.
So Scriptural.
So antiracist.
So irrefutable.

What/Who has the problem?
1. Scripture
2. You

Need a hint?

Too general.
Use scripture.
Try to debate concept vs concept.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

ewq1938 said:
You are wrong overall because even scripture uses the name of Jew to stand for all of Israel:

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Here "Jew" means anyone of the tribes of Israel while "Greek" means any gentile. "Jew" did eventually become a term that could be used of any Israelite from any tribe.

I can tell you why they go against the bible.
It is their investment in doctrine.
As you say Paul and Jesus referred to the Jews vs the Greeks. Or gentiles.
Any other position is absurd.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

Keraz said:
Your fundamental error is to call Jews of the House of Judah, all of Israel.
In over 160 Bible verses, all Israel is clearly defined as the people of the House of Judah, known to us today as the Jews. and the people of the House of Israel, who were the 10 Northern tribes, taken away to exile in ancient times and scattered among the nations.
Today, they can be identified as the Christian peoples, by descent or by their Christian faith. They are the true Israelites of God, the Overcomers for God.

So; your belief as above, is wrong, as ethnic Jews belong to Judah, not to any of the other tribes.

No sir ....my belief is what the bible says.
What you are laying out is replacement theology.
Read Romans 11

covenantee · Mar 22, 2024

rebuilder 454 said:
Too general.
Use scripture.
Try to debate concept vs concept.

"not of thy seed" is inspired specific Scripture. What else do you think it is?

If you have Scripture disproving "not of thy seed", please present it.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

covenantee said:
"not of thy seed" is inspired specific Scripture. What else do you think it is?

If you have Scripture disproving "not of thy seed", please present it.

Are you replacement theology?

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

covenantee said:
"not of thy seed" is inspired specific Scripture. What else do you think it is?

If you have Scripture disproving "not of thy seed", please present it.

ROM 11
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

rebuilder 454 said:
ROM 11
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Incorporate it in you cherry picked verse

covenantee · Mar 22, 2024

rebuilder 454 said:
ROM 11
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 22, 2024

covenantee said:
Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Amazing how confused God is.
He thinks in the time of Paul's writing there were Jews.
You know, the ones that you proved in genesis that they do not exist.

The 144,000 before God at the end.

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