If you believe I "treat" the subject of the Holy Spirit in the same manner as I treat the Master then yes - according to 2 Tim 2:15Floyd said:Floyd, on 14 Apr 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:
Floyd,
When you say "treat" what do you imply? 2 Tim 2:15 (Purity)
Floyd:
I think you know what I mean!
The question remains the same!
Floyd.
Defending the Trinity
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Floyd, on 14 Apr 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:
Floyd:
So your convoluted answer is; because you deny the Deity of Jesus; you deny the Deity of the Holy Spirit!
Floyd.
If you believe I "treat" the subject of the Holy Spirit in the same manner as I treat the Master then yes - according to 2 Tim 2:15Floyd said:Floyd, on 14 Apr 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:
Floyd,
When you say "treat" what do you imply? 2 Tim 2:15 (Purity)
Floyd:
I think you know what I mean!
The question remains the same!
Floyd.
Floyd:
So your convoluted answer is; because you deny the Deity of Jesus; you deny the Deity of the Holy Spirit!
Floyd.
I am more than happy to discuss the issue with nothead or others. Unfortunately, you have shown that you are not only eager take me out of context but that your ridiculous approach to hermeneutics makes it impossible to have a serious conversation with you on these issues. It seems Floyd and others are willing to talk with you about it. I am not the only Trinitarian on this forum. If you have serious questions (which does not seem to be the case to me), then I am sure one of them will be happy to try to answer them.Purity said:
In this matter you lack integrity.Wormwood said:
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?p=224006
You followed by asking a number of questions all of which were answered.
Its not the hermeneutics that you are struggling with, its the context which is revealed to you, which in part, you agreed...though further twisting it to suit your hermeneutics.
Me know twist and wrest!!! that has been something you have managed all by yourself.
The above sound questions are still sitting with you to answer.
Floyd said:Floyd, on 14 Apr 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:
If you believe I "treat" the subject of the Holy Spirit in the same manner as I treat the Master then yes - according to 2 Tim 2:15
Floyd:
So your convoluted answer is; because you deny the Deity of Jesus; you deny the Deity of the Holy Spirit!
Floyd.
Floyd, when you place words like deity and Holy Spirit together you are adhering to concepts or formulations that are not explicit anywhere in the Bible. I think you would be doing everyone a favour if you made this distinction in advance.
If you are going to post please provide us with a Bible verse which you feel supports your teaching - if you go back over many of wormwoods posts he wasn't able to support his notions with Scripture either - I am guessing when you go in search of your Holy Spirit is Deity (person or being) theology and you also will struggle to find the context to support such notions.
Here below are some Scriptures which identify the Holy Spirit with Yahwehs Power:
Notice, too, how the Holy spirit is paralleled with the power of God in the following passages:
Purity
If you are going to post please provide us with a Bible verse which you feel supports your teaching - if you go back over many of wormwoods posts he wasn't able to support his notions with Scripture either - I am guessing when you go in search of your Holy Spirit is Deity (person or being) theology and you also will struggle to find the context to support such notions.
Here below are some Scriptures which identify the Holy Spirit with Yahwehs Power:
Notice, too, how the Holy spirit is paralleled with the power of God in the following passages:
- "The Holy Ghost (Spirit) shall come upon thee (Mary), and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" (Lk.1:35)
- "The power of the Holy Spirit...mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God" (Rom.15:13,19)
- "Our gospel (preaching) came...in power, and in the Holy Spirit" (1 Thess. 1:5).
- The promise of the Holy Spirit to the disciples was spoken of as their being "endued with power from on high" (Lk. 24:49).
- Jesus himself had been "anointed...with the Holy Spirit and with power" (Acts 10:38).
- Paul could back up his preaching with undeniable displays of God's power: "My speech and my preaching was...in demonstration of the spirit and of power" (1 Cor. 2:4).
Purity
Heh bud you made me have to research what you are speaking of. This was what you refuted previously:
First problem I see: all power IS GIVEN to him. This is consistent throughout NT, that Jesus has BEEN GIVEN power and glory. --Nothead
Heh brother, there's an endless world to rediscover...oh sorry I was humming again. Gosh your refute here STILL don't make sense. No comment.
Bible said the Messiah would suffer and be a servant, as opposed to the ROYAL IMAGE which he would naturally more easily be seen as. MORPHE or FORM of God.
He will overthrow "the Romans" when he comes back. They got stumbled there. But overthrowing the Romans wasn't what he was there for, rather to re-establish the righteousness of his people.
They didn't catch it because they still thought Old testamentally. But you sir are thinking new pluralmentally concerning God.
This was never claimed by Jesus during the time he was alive here.
Not an issue of the day, but became one after the gospel was orally circulated. The PEASANTS were still of the House of David, and they knew as they did with Simon Bar Kokhba later that the Messiah would not necessarily be of royal descent. See David and the King who was David born of Jesse not a king.
When the upper room happened so too the HEART of the matter was fulfilled. Even Gentiles not CUT were receiving this spiritual circumcision.
Well nice to get to the heart of the issue since this was what Paul rebukes Peter about. The odd thing was, God tells Peter in a dream that the ceremonial/food restrictions/rabbi additions were all abrogated in absolute authority since HE SAID SO at the time the dream was given. But of course, no one not having this dream would know from Peter's perspective especially since he related not this dream to anyone, not thinking it was true at first.
Paul knew the answer from a completely different perspective. He knew that the CIRCUMCISION promise of Deut 30 was fulfilled:
[SIZE=.75em]6 [/SIZE]And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love theLord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
So then when he rebukes Peter he had the correct paradigm that Peter only came to know AFTER the rebuke.
Through FAITH not through faith in Jesus alone. Abraham was justified by faith IN GOD. Jesus alone is the avenue of Faith to FAITH JUSTIFICATION.
God said he desired mercy over sacrifice, repeatedly. This was not entirely clear until the Temple was destroyed in 135 A.D. Kind of hard to do sacrifices after that.
This one is tough. A Jew has to be able to prioritize law just as Christians need to know now. The Shema and second command to love your neighbor really is the top echelon of Law. Foods should have been LOWER RUNG even among ceremonial/eating orthodox Jews.
Sabbath...the restrictive laws concerning are loosened. The Sabbath should still be holy. And every day, actually.
No, it isn't that the Jews weren't EXPECTING these new things, it was that the Law given has to be explained as to how it was FULFILLED and then how some of it is no longer pertinent. Like you can cut your pee pee for other reasons, for health, for affirming the culture and traditions, but not anymore since God COMMANDED IT. Since he no longer does. In fact this is why Peter's dream was included in canon by God, his intentions.
Of COURSE we are all pre-existent, to heaven or hell. Don't you know if you are a believer who makes it to the end, you are already written in the Book of Life? How this correlates to your future actions a man cannot say...
...only because he is a clay pot and his WILL is a mitigating factor. Calvinists bamboozle themselves by trying to figure it out. And then Free-willers aren't doing right by doing the same. Why are they BOTH wrong?
Since we are clay pots, duh. Since we CANNOT figure it out duh. That's a double 'duh' to you, sir. Geddit edit?
Reason why most of us were not mentioned in the Bible was because we were not born yet, not because we were not famous enough. Well as to me, maybe not you, sir.
Jesus said in Mt 28:19 to baptize in the name of the Father/Son and Holy Spirit. That's a mouthful for ANY man who ever called God "YHWH."
So then 4x they baptized in the name of Yeshua. Even the long form YaHOHshua don't even come close to Pater, Huios, Pneumatos Hagios. Case closed. No 3 step methodology needed. Only to do what he said to do.
What he said to do was what they did. They were first gen Christians and were as ideal as they ever came. Just saying. Mt 28:19 is an insert. Of the most diabolical kind.
One of the best summations I have seen of the facts you refuse to accept (apparently), is below:Purity said:
Proof of the Trinity in the Old Testament
[SIZE=24pt]assembled[/SIZE][SIZE=24pt] and collected by [/SIZE][SIZE=24pt]Pat Miron[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Evidence of the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]What is the Holy Trinity?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Although the words "holy trinity" are[/SIZE] not found in the Bible, the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - clearly refers to the one God as a tri-unity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
[SIZE=14pt]The term "trinity" is a contraction of "tri" (meaning three), and "unity" (meaning one): "tri" + "unity" = "trinity". .... Simply put, the Holy Trinity is [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]one God[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] in [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]three persons [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]who each share the [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]same essence of deity[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]What the Holy Trinity is Not[/SIZE]!
[SIZE=14pt]It is not three Gods, or three modes of one God, or three essences.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]God is also not three separate physical beings.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Trinity is not the Father, Mary and Jesus.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Why Do Christians Believe in the Holy Trinity?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Simply put, because the Bible teaches it.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Throughput the Bible, both Old[/SIZE] and New Testaments, God refers to Himself in both singular and plural terms. In addition, the Father is referred to as God, the Son as God, and the Holy Spirit as God. Furthermore, the three personalities of the Godhead - Father, Son and Spirit, each conduct particular activities which are characteristic of their personality. Finally, they are all unified in absolute communion from all eternity as the one God.
[SIZE=14pt]So the Holy Trinity is one God, and yet three persons sharing one divine nature. Jesus, as the eternal Word of God, has shared n the Father's divine nature before time began. But when He entered time, space and matter, and, became flesh, He added a human nature to His existence. He did not cease being God - He simply added a human nature. Thus Jesus is one person of the Godhead, but with two natures - a human nature, and a divine nature.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Realizing that Jesus actually had two natures helps us understand and better appreciate how only Jesus could bridge the gap between the Creator God and His Creation. For example, did Jesus know all things (as God would)? As God, yes; as man, no.[/SIZE] Did Jesus get hungry? As God, no; as man, yes. Did He know the time of His second coming? As God, of course; as man, no. Understanding the Holy Trinity also helps us understand why Jesus subordinated Himself to the Father, saying "The Father is greater than I." The Father and Son are equal in essence, but different in function. Much like human relationships[SIZE=14pt], a father and son both share a human essence, but the father holds a higher office[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The same hold true with the Holy Spirit - [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]He too shares in the same divine essence, but differs in function. 1 The Spirit is referred to both as God, and as a person in Scripture. He was also there at the beginning of creation ("and the Spirit hovered over the face of the waters"). As does any person, He makes choices, directs followers, and is grieved as well when His children go astray. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]So although we may not understand HOW the one true God can also be three persons, the fact is, this is what Scripture teaches. And if God is who He claims to be, the eternal one who has always existed beyond time, space, and matter - who are we to question His triune nature? We shouldn't be surprised at this. In fact, does He not say "My ways are not your ways, neither are My[/SIZE] thoughts your thoughts."
[SIZE=14pt]God is the absolute compound unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three persons in one divine essence. Three persons who share one divine nature.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Think of a triangle - it has three corners, but it is still one triangle.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Evidence of the Holy Trinity in the Old Testament[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Here are a just a few examples of the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Spirit -- in the Old Testament (there are many more!):[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In the Beginning, The[/SIZE] Triune God Creates the Universe
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 1:1[/SIZE]: [SIZE=14pt]"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]The Father[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is portrayed as the creative source of all things.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 1:2[/SIZE]: [SIZE=14pt]"..[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the Spirit of God [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]was hovering over the face of the waters." [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Here, in the second verse of Genesis, the Spirit of God appears as active in the creation process.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 1:3[/SIZE]: [SIZE=14pt]"Then God said, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"Let there be light; and there was light."[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] The Son, the eternal Word of God, speaks the first of Gods works into existence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Points to note:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The first three verses of Genesis portray the triune God creating the heavens and the earth [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Genesis 1 refers to the Father, verse 2 the Spirit, and verse 3 the Son, as the eternal Word of God speaking light into existence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Triune God Creates Man[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 1:26[/SIZE]: [SIZE=14pt]"Then God said, "Let Us[/SIZE] [plural] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...".
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 1:27[/SIZE]: [SIZE=14pt]"So God [singular] created man in His [singular] own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Points to note:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Verse 26 mentions God three times - [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Us, Our and Our[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In verse 26, God refers to Himself in the plural form; while in verse 27, immediately following, He refers to Himself in the singular form! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Verse 27 mentions God three times - [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]His, He and He[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Triune God Seeks an Intercessor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 6:8-10[/SIZE]: [SIZE=14pt]"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us[/SIZE]?" [SIZE=14pt]Here God refers first to Himself in the singular, then in the plural pronoun, confirming that there are multiple persons in the Godhead.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Pre-incarnate Son Speaks of the Father and Spirit[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 48:16[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"Come near to Me[/SIZE], hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, [SIZE=14pt]I was there.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] And now the Lord God[/SIZE] and His Spirit have sent Me." In this instance the pre-incarnate Son of God is speaking, indicating that He will go on behalf of the Father and the Spirit and redeem God's creation.
[SIZE=14pt]The Pre-incarnate Son Speaks of the Father and Spirit[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 48:16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me." In this instance the pre-incarnate Son of God is speaking, indicating that He will go on behalf of the Father and the Spirit and redeem God's creation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Pre-incarnation Appearance of the Son[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 18:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: "The LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 18:2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: "So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gen 19:24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: "Then the LORD rained brimestone and fire on Sodom and Gormorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Points to note:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]This passage recounts the events preceding the destruction of the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Here the LORD (YHVH) has appeared on earth to Abraham, along with two angels [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Verse 24 described how the Son (LORD) while on the earth, rained brimstone and fire from the Father (LORD) out of the heavens.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The OT further specifies the nature of divine plurality by identifying the three persons of the Godhead. These three persons are all distinguished from each other, and yet, in various ways, are identified as God: the Father (e.g. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Deuteronomy 32:6[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 63:16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]64:8[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Malachi 2:10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]); the person variously designated as the Messenger of the LORD (Heb. Malakh Yahweh), Word, or Son of God (e.g. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 16:7-14[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]21:17-18[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]22:9-18[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]28:10-22[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (cf. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 31:11-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), 32:22-32 (cf. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Hosea 12:3-4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]); Exodus 3, 13:21 (cf. 14:19), 23:20-22; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Numbers 22:21-41[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Judges 2:1-5[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]6:7-24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]13:3-22[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]2 Samuel 24:16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; Psalm 2, 110:1, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 7:14[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]9:6[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]63:9[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jeremiah 23:5-6[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Proverbs 30:4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zechariah 1:10-11[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]12:8[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Malachi 3:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]); and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God (e.g. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Nehemiah 9:20[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Job 26:13[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]33:4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 104:30[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]106:32-33[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]139:1-24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]143:10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]2 Samuel 23:1-3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 11:2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]40:13[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 11:5[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Micah 2:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Finally, in addition to the above passages that separately speak of one or another person of the Godhead, assigning to them the names, attributes, and prerogatives of God, there are many passages which mention all three persons together, assigning to each a role in the divine works of creation, providence, and redemption. For example: 1) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 1:1-3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mentions God creating all things by His Word and Spirit; 2) the same thing is reiterated in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 33:6[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 42:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] speaks of God, His Servant/Chosen One, and His Spirit, by which He will bring justice or righteousness to the world; 4) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 48:12-16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] has the First and the Last, i.e. the eternal God, speaking of a time when He is sent by the LORD God and His Spirit; 5) in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 61:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], the person who is sent with the good news, i.e. the Gospel, says the LORD has anointed Him with His Holy Spirit, Who is upon Him; and 6) Isaiah 63 tells of the LORD, the Angel [Lit. Heb. Messenger] of His Presence, and the Holy Spirit bringing about salvation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Trinity in the Old Testament[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]A Brief Summary of the Evidence[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]By Anthony Rogers[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In order to establish some kind of continuity between the message of the prophets and the doctrine of Tawheed[/SIZE], which Muslims allege is taught in the Qur'an, some Muslims argue that the Old Testament (not to mention the New) does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. With an eye to this, the following aims to present a brief summary of the evidence that the prophets taught the Trinity.
[SIZE=14pt]As for my thesis, the following will show, unlike Muslims and other unitarians[/SIZE], orthodox Christians cling to and are comfortable with all of the Biblical material, which says that God is a uni-plural or triune being, preferring to follow the prophetic Word where it leads on this matter (and all others) rather than subject the truth of what God has revealed to the misguided dictates of unaided and fallen human reason or to a false revelation delivered in the name of a false god. In other words, Christians are those who submit to what God has said about Himself, however lofty His self-revelation may be, preferring this above rationalistic and idolatrous methods of determining the truth, which turn out to be arbitrary and worthless, not only when it comes to arriving at a true and saving understanding of God, but to account for anything in the world.1
[SIZE=16pt]OT Adumbrations and Evidences for the Trinity[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The doctrine of the Trinity is interwoven throughout the entire warp and poof of the Old Testament; it is not merely found in a discrete passage or proof-text here and there. For example, from the beginning to the end of the Old Testament, plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs and adjectives are regularly used for God, at least in the Hebrew text. A cursory list follows:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The word Elohim is used thousands of times for "God"; Adonai is used hundreds of times for "Lord"; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]A number of passages speak of the "faces"or "presences"or "persons" of God ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Exodus 33:14[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Deuteronomy 4:37[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Job 13:8[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]God refers to Himself as "Us," "Our," and "We" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 1:26[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]2:18[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 6:8[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]41:21-24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]),2[/SIZE] a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.
[SIZE=14pt]The OT says of God, "they caused me to wander" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 20:13[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), "they appeared"([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 35:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), "they drew nigh" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Deuteronomy 4:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), "they went" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]2 Samuel 7:23[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), and "they judge" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 58:11[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The OT calls God our "Creators" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Ecclesiastes 12:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), "Makers" and "Husbands" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Job 35:10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 149:2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 54:5[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The OT says that God is "holy" ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Joshua 24:19[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Proverbs 9:10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]30:3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), another plural. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]All of this (and more) can be found in the Old Testament in spite of the fact that singular words are readily available in each instance where these words occur. If the prophetic authors of the Bible were unitarians[/SIZE], we wouldn't expect them to speak about God in this way. Indeed, unitarians do not typically speak this way in ordinary conversation and fall all over themselves trying to explain them when they are brought up.4
[SIZE=14pt]One might say the use of plural expressions is customary among polytheists, but then in the case of polytheism it only needs to be pointed out that right alongside such plural references to God are singular words, even emphatic declarations that there is only one God. These singular references to God are just as disconcerting to polytheists as the plural references are to unitarians[/SIZE].
[SIZE=14pt]The same thing can be said for many other peculiarities distinctive of Old Testament revelation about God, such as when God speaks to or about another person who is identified as God or Lord (Psalm 2, 110:1, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 13:17-19[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Hosea 1:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Amos 4:10-11[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jeremiah 50:40[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Malachi 3:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Micah 5:2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zechariah 2:8-11[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]12:10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]13:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt])5 or when the Biblical authors refer to more than one person as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 19:24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt];6[/SIZE] Psalm 457). Once again, this does not sit well with either unitarians or polytheists; the former because it implies personal plurality within the Godhead, contrary to their unitarian assumptions; the latter because it implies the essential unity of these divine persons, contrary to their polytheistic assumptions.
[SIZE=14pt]In addition to plural words and the divine distinctions pointed out above, mention can be made of the triadic prayers, benedictions, and doxologies of the Old Testament (e.g. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 48:15-16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Numbers 6:24-26[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 6:3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]8[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] see also [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 33:22[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jeremiah 33:2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Daniel 9:19[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]),9 which given their formulaic character, cry out for some kind of explanation. This cry has fallen on deaf unitarian[/SIZE] ears and has been met with equally mute unitarian lips for a reason: this is not the way unitarians would naturally speak of their "god".
[SIZE=14pt]Finally, in addition to the above passages that separately speak of one or another person of the Godhead, assigning to them the names, attributes, and prerogatives of God, there are many passages which mention all three persons together, assigning to each a role in the divine works of creation, providence, and redemption. For example: 1) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 1:1-3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mentions God creating all things by His Word and Spirit; 2) the same thing is reiterated in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 33:6[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 42:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] speaks of God, His Servant/Chosen One, and His Spirit, by which He will bring justice or righteousness to the world; 4) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 48:12-16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] has the First and the Last, i.e. the eternal God, speaking of a time when He is sent by the LORD God and His Spirit; 5) in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 61:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], the person who is sent with the good news, i.e. the Gospel, says the LORD has anointed Him with His Holy Spirit, Who is upon Him; and Isaiah 63 tells of the LORD, the Angel [Lit. Heb. Messenger] of His Presence, and the Holy Spirit bringing about salvation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]An Objection Considered[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The assumption that pre-Christian Jews did not believe in the Trinity is often allowed to run rough-shod over the evidence available from the OT. Not only is this irrelevant - since the question is not what ancient Jews in general allegedly believed but what the Jewish prophets taught as they were borne along by the Holy Spirit - but it isn't true in the first place. The Aramaic Targums[/SIZE] and a wide body of inter-testamental literature give evidence of (at least) a nascent Trinitarianism among some Jews. Often what some people present as evidence against Jewish Trinitarianism comes from modern anti-Messianic Jewish sources, not from the writings of ancient Jews; when appeal is made to Jewish writings of the inter-testamental period, it is usually in a very selective way
[SIZE=14pt]Proverbs 30:3[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]is particularly instructive for it goes on in verse 4 to mention God and His Son. For more on this, see the following two articles: The Incomprehensible Nature of God and His Son[/SIZE]; and Jesus Christ - the Incomprehensible Son of God and Sovereign Lord of All Creation
[SIZE=14pt]Isa.63: 10 -11 "[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]But they rebelled and grieved his holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is he who brought up out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his holy Spirit," [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4Ezra.14: 22[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"If then I have found favor before thee, send the Holy Spirit into me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things which were written in thy law, that men may be able to find the path, and that those who wish to live in the last days may live." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"Trinity" is a term used to describe the idea of one God existing in three distinct Persons, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a 4th Century invention, its roots are found in the Old Testament.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Plural Words Are Used To Describe God Throughout[/SIZE] The Old Testament
[SIZE=14pt]The Bible begins with these words: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Gen. 1:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) The word 'God' is the Hebrew word "elohiym"[/SIZE]. Elohiym is the plural form of the word God. It implies unity in plurality.
[SIZE=14pt]And while we don't endorse the theology found in the Zohar, their commentary on the Shema[/SIZE], the declaration that the Lord is one from [SIZE=14pt]Deuteronomy 6:4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], is interesting: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"Hear, O Israel, Adonai[/SIZE] Eloheinu Adonai is one." [SIZE=14pt]These three are one[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.....So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai[/SIZE] Eloheinu Adonai--three modes which yet form one unity
[SIZE=16pt]Some Subtle Examples Of[/SIZE] The Trinity
[SIZE=14pt]In the Old Testament we find that God has organized many biblical ideas in trinitarian[/SIZE] ways.
[SIZE=14pt]The Old Testament itself is a "trinity" being made up of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. The same is true for the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel is also a trinity, being made up of priests, Levites, and Israelites. The Jews pray three times a day in the morning, afternoon, and evenings. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Numbers 6:24-26[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the Lord gives a three-fold blessing and in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 6:3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the angels give God three-fold praise crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Does all this prove the Trinity? No, but it does open the door to the possibility, and should encourage us to continue our study. Ultimately the issue has to be decided by Scripture, which is where we�ll now turn our attention[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God Mentioned As Two Distinct Personalities[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Psalm 110:1[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The LORD said to my Lord,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Sit at My right hand, till I make Your[/SIZE] enemies Your footstool."
[SIZE=14pt]God anoints God in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 45:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You[/SIZE] with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
[SIZE=14pt]God is speaking and says He'll save Israel by the Lord, their God in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Hosea 1:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"Yet I [God] will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor[/SIZE] by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."
[SIZE=14pt]The Lord rains fire from the Lord in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Genesis 19:24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]God is sent by God in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zechariah 2:8-9[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"For thus says the LORD of hosts:" "He sent Me[/SIZE] after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
[SIZE=14pt]God sends His messenger, the Lord, who will come to His temple in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Malachi 3:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"Behold, I send My[/SIZE] messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.
[SIZE=14pt]We find God and His Son in Proverb 30:4:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]God gives the nations to His Son in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 2:7-8[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Lord has said to Me[/SIZE], [SIZE=14pt]'You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession.' [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]From God will come a Ruler who is eternal, of old, from everlasting in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Micah 5:2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah[/SIZE], though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
[SIZE=16pt]God Is Mentioned As Three Distinct Personalities[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There are a couple of wonderful examples of the Trinity in Isaiah:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In this passage the speaker is God who has been sent by the Lord God and the Holy Spirit. This passage is very clearly shows the Trinity. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 48:12[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], 16-17[/SIZE]:
[SIZE=14pt]Come near to Me[/SIZE], hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.
[SIZE=14pt]Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The[/SIZE] Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go."
[SIZE=14pt]The Lord became the Savior but it wasn't the Father, but the Angel of His Presence (A term referring to the physical manifestation of God), and we also have the Holy Spirit who was grieved when the people rebelled. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 63:7-10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I will mention the lovingkindnesses[/SIZE] of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, according to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
[SIZE=14pt]For He said, "Surely they are My[/SIZE] people, Children who will not lie." So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted,
[SIZE=14pt]And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All[/SIZE] the days of old.
[SIZE=14pt]But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Memra[/SIZE], The Word Of The Lord
[SIZE=14pt]It's interesting to see the way the ancient rabbis handled verses like the ones above. In the Targums, which are Aramaic translations of the Old Testament, the Aramaic word 'Memra'[/SIZE], which means the 'Word' or 'The Word of the Lord', is used when physical manifestations of God appear or when God is mentioned more than once in the same verse. Here are a few examples from the Targums:
[SIZE=14pt]The Memra[/SIZE] acts as a mediator between the Father and Creation:
[SIZE=14pt]And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra[/SIZE]} and between you (Targum Onkelos [SIZE=14pt]Gen. 17:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra[/SIZE]] and between all flesh that is upon the earth. (Targum Onkelos [SIZE=14pt]Gen. 9:17[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Memra[/SIZE] is God and is worshiped as such:
[SIZE=14pt]And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra[/SIZE]] of YHWH, and said, �You are Lord who does see, but You cannot be seen.� (Jerusalem Targum [SIZE=14pt]Gen. 22:14[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Memra[/SIZE] is God, yet is a separate personality from the Father and Holy Spirit:
[SIZE=14pt]And the Word [Memra[/SIZE]] of the Lord caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the Lord in heaven. (Targum Jonathan on [SIZE=14pt]Gen. 19:24[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Memra[/SIZE] is Jesus:
[SIZE=14pt]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was[/SIZE] made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. ([SIZE=14pt]John 1:1-4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Greek word for Memra[/SIZE] is Logos, [SIZE=14pt]which in English translates to "The Word". So what John 1 is saying that Jesus is the Memra[/SIZE], the Word. He is fully God yet distinct from the Father and is the mediator between the Father and Creation. "No one comes to the Father except by Me."
[SIZE=14pt]The concept of the Trinity has biblical support in the Old Testament. We see one God yet we also see clearly separate personalities. We see plurality in unity. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Some people want a God who is simpler than His creation. But that isn't the God of the Bible. The Trinity is a concept we can't truly understand, but can only get a faint idea of. C.S. Lewis summed it up well in Mere Christianity when he said: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings -just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being[/SIZE], just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube.
[SIZE=14pt]Of course, we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint of something super-personal - something more than a person." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Triunity[/SIZE] (Trinity) of God in The Old Testament by Rich Deem
[SIZE=14pt]The Son is also found in the Old Testament:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me[/SIZE], 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. ([SIZE=14pt]Psalm 2:7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Do[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Psalm 2:12[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Proverbs 30:4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That[/SIZE] all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. ([SIZE=14pt]Daniel 7:13-14[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The third member of the triunity[/SIZE] of God, The Holy Spirit, is also found extensively in the Old Testament: [SIZE=14pt]Genesis 1:2[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]1 Samuel 11:6[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Psalm 106:33[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 3:24[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Genesis 6:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]1 Samuel 16:13[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Psalm 139:7[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 8:3[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Exodus 31:3[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]1 Samuel 16:14[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Psalm 143:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 11:1[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Exodus 35:31[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]1 Samuel 19:20[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 11:2[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 11:5[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Numbers 11:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]1 Samuel 19:23[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 30:1[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 11:24[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Numbers 11:25[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]2 Samuel 23:2[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 32:15[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 36:27[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Numbers 11:26[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]1 Kings 18:12[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 34:16[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 37:1[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Numbers 11:29[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]1 Kings 22:24[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 40:13[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 37:14[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Numbers 24:2[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]2 Kings 2:16[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 42:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 39:29[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Finally, there are a number of verses in the Old Testament in which the triunity[/SIZE] of God is directly expressed:
[SIZE=14pt]Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know![/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Proverbs 30:4[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And[/SIZE] a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. ([SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 11:1-2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My[/SIZE] chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. ([SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 42:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]"Come near to Me[/SIZE], listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." ([SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 48:16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because[/SIZE] the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; ([SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 61:1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In all their[/SIZE] affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. ([SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 63:9-10[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt])[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Some of the verses above include all members of the triunity[/SIZE] ([SIZE=16pt]Isaiah 42:1[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]Isaiah 48:16[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt], and [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]Isaiah 61:1[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]). [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]Therefore, the Old Testament does reveal the Christian concept of the Godhead, with God being one God, consisting of three persons. How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural? It is a logical impossibility if God were restricted to the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time of our physical universe.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]
Yes, Christians understand this. However, you talk to any orthodox Jew today and they will totally reject the idea of a suffering servant Messiah (they believe those verses are in reference to Israel). Just as they rejected that idea in the first century. Crosses were the result of failed rebellions against the Romans, not a way of salvation for Jews. Its why Paul said it was foolish and why Peter said that "had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." So again, no Jew saw this coming (not even the disciples)...which is my point.
Um, your response makes no sense. My point is that the Jews rejected this idea (and most still do) which prevented them from accepting the Word of God. They rejected it because it wasn't "kosher" (to use your words). What I am "thinking" is what the NT explicitly teaches about the divinity of Christ and the person of the Spirit. Again, just because the Jews rejected the concept is not rationale to argue that it is not a NT concept. Again, that is my point.
This is nonsense. We see evidence of this in the Gospels. It seems this is one of the reasons why the Pharisees were put off by John the Baptist (what did you go out to see? A man in fine clothes? -Jesus). Also, Jesus' home town in Capernaum appeared to reject him because of his humble status. Even one of the disciples, Nathanael, said, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" (Nazareth was kinda of poorer, backwoods type of place) The whole point of Matthew's lineage is to prove Jesus is connected to king David.
Maybe you aren't getting the point. My point is not that the NT doesn't teach these things. The point is that the Jews (and many times even the disciples), never expected and even rejected these ideas. This was the primary reason Jews were following Paul all over the Roman Empire to kill him! But according to you, doctrines rejected by the majority of Jews cannot be biblical ones. You are wrong again.
Yes, Paul makes this point clearly in Romans and Galatians. But the point is that he also makes the point that the Jews, for the most part, were rejecting and stumbling over this idea. They were fixed on works of the Law and were rejecting Christ because of their focus on works of the Law. Again, the Jews did not expect this or even understand it for the most part. So again, just because the Jews didn't get it, doesn't mean it isn't a biblical concept.
Uh, yeah. The "loosening" of the Sabbath was what the Jews expected of their Messiah....not. In fact, the Pharisees refused to believe Jesus was the Messiah at all because he was healing on the Sabbath. So obviously, since they were Jews and they knew what was "kosher" then Jesus was in error (according to your wacky expectations of what is acceptable and what is not based on what the Jews would have accepted).
Bologna. Of course they were not EXPECTING these new things. It's why they didn't accept them (for the most part) and sought to kill the Apostles who taught them. Have you read the book of Acts? Yet God reveals this is who he is and what he planned from the beginning. It's why Paul claimed his message was a "mystery" from God revealed in the last days. So from the NT, we see how these things all make sense and why the NT sheds light on the old. The same is true with the Trinity. We see a fuller revelation of who God is and what he has done so that all glory goes to Him. Yet you admit these things were rejected or difficult for early Jews to understand or embrace. Yes, this is PRECISELY my point. Its also why Matthew 28:19 is included in the Scriptures. Its why John 8 is included in the Scriptures. Its why Philippians 2 is included in the Scriptures. Its why Colossians 1 is included in the Scriptures. And on and on and on. The fact of the matter is that all of these issues ran against the grain of what the Jews expected and actually made them want to kill Jesus, Peter, Paul and others as a result. Not only did they not foresee these revelations from God, they HATED them. So your whole point about the Trinity being impossible because the Jews would not have accepted it is about as senseless as a box of hammers. They didn't accept any of these things listed above as well as a host of others! But we have the NT Scriptures and we believe them because they are God's word and not based on whether or not we think the Jews would have liked them. This was at the heart of Paul's ministry...preaching the truth of Jesus, even though he was hated for it.
“For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10, ESV)
You should take these words to heart. The teaching of the Trinity is not about what pleases man, but accepting and teaching God's revelation of his person and work in Christ.
Nothead:
You are clearly in error in your thinking generally.
The basis of your comments are so often "what the Jews think,or accept".
You need to accept that they are at present "Lo-Ammi", (not my people); see Hos. 1and 2; which is the prophecy of such.
Unless you take this fact on board, you will not make progress; as per comment from Wormwood:
Yes, this is PRECISELY my point. Its also why Matthew 28:19 is included in the Scriptures. Its why John 8 is included in the Scriptures. Its why Philippians 2 is included in the Scriptures. Its why Colossians 1 is included in the Scriptures. And on and on and on. The fact of the matter is that all of these issues ran against the grain of what the Jews expected and actually made them want to kill Jesus, Peter, Paul and others as a result. Not only did they not foresee these revelations from God, they HATED them. So your whole point about the Trinity being impossible because the Jews would not have accepted it is about as senseless as a box of hammers. They didn't accept any of these things listed above as well as a host of others! But we have the NT Scriptures and we believe them because they are God's word and not based on whether or not we think the Jews would have liked them. This what the heart of Paul's ministry...preaching the truth of Jesus, even though he was hated for it.
See: The position of the Jews in Scripture, Old and New Testaments
Floyd.
You are clearly in error in your thinking generally.
The basis of your comments are so often "what the Jews think,or accept".
You need to accept that they are at present "Lo-Ammi", (not my people); see Hos. 1and 2; which is the prophecy of such.
Unless you take this fact on board, you will not make progress; as per comment from Wormwood:
Yes, this is PRECISELY my point. Its also why Matthew 28:19 is included in the Scriptures. Its why John 8 is included in the Scriptures. Its why Philippians 2 is included in the Scriptures. Its why Colossians 1 is included in the Scriptures. And on and on and on. The fact of the matter is that all of these issues ran against the grain of what the Jews expected and actually made them want to kill Jesus, Peter, Paul and others as a result. Not only did they not foresee these revelations from God, they HATED them. So your whole point about the Trinity being impossible because the Jews would not have accepted it is about as senseless as a box of hammers. They didn't accept any of these things listed above as well as a host of others! But we have the NT Scriptures and we believe them because they are God's word and not based on whether or not we think the Jews would have liked them. This what the heart of Paul's ministry...preaching the truth of Jesus, even though he was hated for it.
See: The position of the Jews in Scripture, Old and New Testaments
Floyd.
Floyd said:
It ain't what they was expecting or accepting. It was what God told em, sir. IF he says He is a HE and not an US or WE, and then EMPHASIZES this with the Shema which unequivocally states HE is singular as in the number ONE, contextually in addition to standing next to NO OTHER ONE, then this means what it means and shall ever never ever be broken, sir.
Maybe GOD'S point is that you gotta one, know your priorities and two, be flexible to the ones which ain't so prioritized, don't you think? Sir?
Like there were things IMPORDUNT and things NOT SO IMPORDUNT as they say here in Texis.
My point is that the Shema was said to be the most important point of your religion, within the first Command and mentioned first. It will not be abrogated or go away. This is true for the Jew.
This is true for YOU sir.
Isn't that what I said?
The landing spot of Right Thinking is a hard place to land even for us with alotta landings, sir. What you say about Jews I say about you. And I'm mostly never wrong 100% of more than half of the time.
Most Jews don't get the Shema, even though they recited it alot. You don't get it since you never recite it. Who is worse off?
I am not an expert on Sabbath anything. I preach Shema. So don't take my word for this subject since I ain't no Lord of any sabbath.
So too I'm not a faithful sunday gatherer. Find me a pentecostal unitarian Church. Maybe then.
The MYSTERY was who was the Messiah? Not Simon Bar Kokhba. Not the ones Gemaliel mentions in the day. No nothead expects nothing from God. That is why notheads have to go to the School of Hard Knocks. To get the hardness knocked out of their necks. Or was it stiffness?
There was never a Bridge of Understanding for the Trinity. Peter's dream served as notice God was changing his requirements regarding the Law. See the difference?
Someone ADDED this one which has no explanation or bridge of understanding. Or collaboration anywhere.
My terps not yours. Trinity sminity, as brother Steve Winter sings. He thinks Jesus is God, however. Typical apostolic, that.
I never said they would have not accepted it as reason for it being false. I am saying the issue of divinity never came up much since no one thought about it as issue at all.
I also said God does not change his mind about the First Command without giving notice. Notice how he says to Peter in a dream he gives up on requiring the traditional, lesser commands. Or did I already say this.
Of course we are to please God and follow his commands. I've yet to hear this one in my heart, though: "Know ye this, I am three-in-one."
Yep, I'm sure the unbelieving Jews had the same argument. "This was to be an 'everlasting covenant.' We are just believing God!" You actually think the Jew's didn't have "spiritual" and "Scriptural" reasons for rejecting the revelation of Jesus Christ? If so, I have some great timeshares to sell you.
Yes. I don't deny that God is one. He is one ousia. Just cause you don't get it, don't mean it aint true, son. You think you can fit God in that little 2.5 pound lump of meat in your skull and that is the rub.
You might wanna add the School of Google and a hard head that doesn't embrace cold hard facts
.Well, you may wanna stop listening to your heart and start listening to the clear teachings of Scripture. But that's just one idea.... Haha
.Instead of believing God lied to them about an everlasting covenant, how about seeing the New Covenant as a quite natural extension of the Old Covenant.
Here let me give you defining scenario, from nothead the Scenario Maestroh:
1) Jews tried to do the Ten which were DO NOTS and pretty basic. This is from Moses who came down with the Tablets of Command
2) God took them out of Egypt and slavery. As wanderers they found identity and succor from the El Shaddai of Abraham now RENAMED YHWH Elohim to Moses, Exodus 3) This name was said to be everlasting, just as too, your EVERLASTING COVENANT.
4) When the Land of Milk and Honey finally arrived, the Great Shema was given, which was a YONT TO Command, no man can do without his own YONT TO. This Command was then said to be the Greatest One, recited 2x daily, to put on your forehead and hand, doorpost and porch, teach your children. THIS Command has no closed end, which means that men generally can't do it, but it was given in such a way that they were still encouraged to do it with all they could muster up:
Deut 30
[SIZE=.75em]11 [/SIZE]For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
[SIZE=.75em]12 [/SIZE]It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
So then God wasn't lying to them, He just said DO IT, like in the Nike commercial, even though He never said exactly how HARD this command really is...
...not deceiving them why? IN THE DOING to the incremental DEGREE they DID IT, they were blessed back in whatever way. Blessings of God, harmony of the world, YOUR part in making things ideal according to the will of God...good karma. Whatever, as they did the Shema, they were blessed in return.
But more importantly they FAILED at giving God their all, and this on a daily basis brings a spritual wisdom. Amen. When they failed God did not UNcovenant them. He added Jesus instead as PROPITIATION for the liability they incurred when in the OLD COVENANT sir. Even GENTILES incur liability through their lives and especially the Jews should have known better.
So then DOING the Shema brings the knowledge that you CAN'T do the Shema. Whoo HOO!! Now you get it, that the OT covenant never passed away...but is rather FULFILLED in Christ Jesus and along with this FULFILLING, by the FILLING or indwelling of the Holy Spirit , it is LIKENED to a NEW Covenant, but rather just defines the OLD one to be viable and true??
Trinity sminity, one ousia my cornpone juicia. Hey maybe me and Steve Winter can sing duo!!
Ousia is IMPOSSIBLE sir. I can give you a million reasons. For one, ain't no OUSIA in the Bible, sir. It was a Greek word made up by Greek philosophers. Not believers, sir.
You might wanna add the School of Google and a hard head that doesn't embrace cold hard facts
I've gone to Exegetical School. Dropped out, but I was there for a year and a half. Reformed, non-pentecostal. You know the usual malarkey.
Give a clear teaching and I will trash it with the sword. You know which one. The one which makes you cringe?
Say why or why not or this is a throw away post, sir. Debate isn't all about your opinion rather why your opinion is valid or more valid. Give your evidence.
I responded to this one. Your link is probably a waste of time. I may refute it later just for the halibut.
This is as far as I got...if you cannot define the God you worship in Biblical terms you are wasting your time and mine!Floyd said:
Wormwood - please do not speak on subjects you clearly no little about. Stay on the Trinity in which you have been trained as a child - safe ground here.Wormwood said:
Twofold Messiah's:
The Messiah who was to come, suffer and die was termed Messiah, the Son of Joseph (Mashiach ben Yoseph). The second Messiah who would then come following the first was termed Messiah, the Son of David (Mashiach ben David). This one would raise the first Messiah back to life, and establish the Messianic kingdom of peace on earth. That the Old Testament presents these two lines of Messianic prophecy was something that all the early rabbis recognized. The Old Testament never clearly states that there will be two Messiahs. In fact, many of the paradoxical descriptions are found side by side in the same passages, in which it seems that only one person is meant. But for the early rabbis the two-Messiahs theory seemed to be the best answer.
For centuries Orthodox Judaism held the concept of two Messiahs. Since the Talmudic period, however, in the history of the Jewish people the Son of David alone was played up in the imaginations of Jewish hearts and minds. The other messianic figure, Messiah, the Son of Joseph, the suffering one, was ignored, He was there in Jewish theology when needed to explain the suffering Messiah passages contained in the Old Testament. Today there a number of Jewish groups who hold the two Messiah approach.
Purity
Its really about keeping you in check isn't it wormwood.Wormwood said:
The NT teaches the contrary, if anything it teaches Jesus' humanity more than his divine origin.
Hebrews 2:14-18 "As the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood (human nature), he (Christ) also himself likewise took part (i.e. "partook", R.S.V.) of the same (nature); that through death he might destroy...the devil...For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the (nature of the) seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest... to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted".
Previous attempts by men to keep God's word, i.e. to totally overcome temptation, had all failed. Therefore "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and by a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3 A.V. mg.).
Wormwood how did God condemn sin in the flesh of His son?
I mean how do you condemn something in a person if its not there represented?
Tough question
for a Trinitarian.Monotheists, say there is only one God, and polytheists say that there is more than one god.Wormwood said:
Montheists have the entire Jewish history and prophetical books to establish One God
Polytheists have nearly 2000 years of apostate Christianity as their heritage along with all the Platonic philosophy to boot.
Any honest investigation of monotheism which uses rational thoughts processes will find its superiority over polytheism.
You only need to witness Paul’s apologetic strategy when he spoke to the polytheists and idolaters on Mars’ hill (see Acts 17:16-31) .
True Christian apologists should follow his example.
I don't believe God lied to them...obviously. My point (which you can never seem to grasp throughout this conversation) is that the Jews were mistaken in their understanding of God and his purposes for them. That's what I am driving at. Thats the whole point I am making in a nutshell in response to your "kosher" argument. You keep missing the forest for the trees notty.
χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ
Yea, they were unbelieving Greek philosophers. Gimme a break. The word is based out of Hebrews 1:3 referring to hypostasis.
Eh, what do scholars and linguistic expects have on Google any notty's own wealth of knowledge of Greek and early Christianity? Surely his 999,999 other reasons blow these crazy Christian PhD's out of the water! Silly unbelieving philosophers probably added in Matthew 28:19 while they were dreaming up ousia while imagining ways to destroy the true faith with Constantine now that I think about it.... Wow! I like creating my own history. That way I don't have to read and study! Thanks notty!
Interesting Purity that you would not study the excellent material given to you!Purity said:This is as far as I got...if you cannot define the God you worship in Biblical terms you are wasting your time and mine!
Wormwood - please do not speak on subjects you clearly no little about. Stay on the Trinity in which you have been trained as a child - safe ground here.
Twofold Messiah's:
The Messiah who was to come, suffer and die was termed Messiah, the Son of Joseph (Mashiach ben Yoseph). The second Messiah who would then come following the first was termed Messiah, the Son of David (Mashiach ben David). This one would raise the first Messiah back to life, and establish the Messianic kingdom of peace on earth. That the Old Testament presents these two lines of Messianic prophecy was something that all the early rabbis recognized. The Old Testament never clearly states that there will be two Messiahs. In fact, many of the paradoxical descriptions are found side by side in the same passages, in which it seems that only one person is meant. But for the early rabbis the two-Messiahs theory seemed to be the best answer.
For centuries Orthodox Judaism held the concept of two Messiahs. Since the Talmudic period, however, in the history of the Jewish people the Son of David alone was played up in the imaginations of Jewish hearts and minds. The other messianic figure, Messiah, the Son of Joseph, the suffering one, was ignored, He was there in Jewish theology when needed to explain the suffering Messiah passages contained in the Old Testament. Today there a number of Jewish groups who hold the two Messiah approach.
Purity
Its really about keeping you in check isn't it wormwood.
The NT teaches the contrary, if anything it teaches Jesus' humanity more than his divine origin.
Hebrews 2:14-18 "As the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood (human nature), he (Christ) also himself likewise took part (i.e. "partook", R.S.V.) of the same (nature); that through death he might destroy...the devil...For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the (nature of the) seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest... to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted".
Previous attempts by men to keep God's word, i.e. to totally overcome temptation, had all failed. Therefore "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and by a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3 A.V. mg.).
Wormwood how did God condemn sin in the flesh of His son?
I mean how do you condemn something in a person if its not there represented?
Tough question
Monotheists, say there is only one God, and polytheists say that there is more than one god.
Montheists have the entire Jewish history and prophetical books to establish One God
Polytheists have nearly 2000 years of apostate Christianity as their heritage along with all the Platonic philosophy to boot.
Any honest investigation of monotheism which uses rational thoughts processes will find its superiority over polytheism.
You only need to witness Paul’s apologetic strategy when he spoke to the polytheists and idolaters on Mars’ hill (see Acts 17:16-31) .
True Christian apologists should follow his example.
You have indeed been a "waste of time"; except that your heresy has been exposed for many to see; which in itself is good work!
Floyd.
Gimme a breakWormwood said:
1:3 The Son (Jesus) is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Yahweh).
It was Origen who first tried to distinguish between ὑπόστασις and οὐσία, but the terms continued to be used interchangeably, and such usage is discoverable in the Nicene anathema. At the Synod of Alexandria, in 362 a.d., the two uses of the term ὑπόστασις were formally distinguished and mutual misapprehensions were removed. The Cappadocian theologians did much to crystallize the term in the sense of person, and the other use disappeared from orthodox terminology. Henceforth μία οὐσία καὶ τρεῖς ὑποστάσεις became the recognized phrase; and was equivalent to one substantia and three personae.
Origen must be regarded as altogether the most brilliant and many-sided theologian of ante-Nicene days; and although he ventilated a number of speculative opinions that orthodox thought has condemned, the work to which he gave his remarkable powers was to fortify the traditional faith of the Church, and to vindicate its harmony with sound philosophy. (Philosophy follows....) His belief in the co-eternal and coequal Godhead of the divine Persons, and his freedom from any tendency to lose sight of their mutual distinction, cannot reasonably be denied. His most notable work was to define traditional and New Testament doctrine as to the generation of the Son, and as to what is called subordination. His language on subordination was used at a later date in support of Arianism.... (The Trinity - Rev. Francis J. Hall, D.D)
Wormwood has a most brilliant theologian in his corner who with many speculative opinions has harmonised Yahweh's Word with - yes you read correctly "sound philosophy".
I have asked of you the impossible.
Christ "became" the very image of His substance (χαρακτηρ της ὑποστασεως [charaktēr tēs hupostaseōs]). Χαρακτηρ [Charaktēr] is an old word from χαρασσω [charassō], to cut, to scratch, to mark.
Nothead, have you ever considered how this engraving, scratching and marking of Gods Character upon the Son took place? Such a magnificent subject which includes the shema! O does it involve the Shema = hearing!
Rev 21:19 see the word Saphhire? The Hebrew sappeer signifies to scratch, mark, polish, write, number. The sapphire is a deep blue in colour, suggesting the principle of God manifestation (Num 15:38). The pavement under the feet of the Elohim as seen by Moses was of sapphire (Exo 24:10), as was also the throne of glory associated with the Cherubim (Eze 1:26; Eze 10:1).
Heb 1:3 is utterly destroyed by Trinitarian teaching as it misses out on his obedience, subjection, servitude and sacrifice - learning to obey through suffering...hence his glorification.
Purity
Gimme a break
I don't believe God lied to them...obviously. My point (which you can never seem to grasp throughout this conversation) is that the Jews were mistaken in their understanding of God and his purposes for them. That's what I am driving at. Thats the whole point I am making in a nutshell in response to your "kosher" argument. You keep missing the forest for the trees notty.
You have said his 'everlasting covenant' was abrogated, making the old one moot. Not exactly. God adjusts his relationship to us, depending upon how we respond. The Old Covenant never died, but because we could not fulfill it, it became untenable as it was. Jesus was added to as propitiation and as the name of power in the Holy Spirit among us. This makes the New Covenant a hybrid of the Old One. A necessary addition, Jesus. But still the Old Covenant modified. New idea and concept, something to think about.
A hypostasis ain't an ousia, OR a homoousia, is it, sir? I think you just bamboozled yourself again, not that this is a surprise. See the Trinity paradigm historically included the idea that God is 3 hypostasis in 1 ousia, this same ousia of being common to both Jesus and God.
But if an ousia IS a hypostasis then how is the Trinity viable. Yes IN FACT the Greeks were using a SYNONYM to make distinctions about God. They had to further define these terms to somehow be mutually exclusive in meaning, in order to not just bamboozle themselves into Bamboozle Land, as they say over there.
They never accomplished this, but what the heck, in the meantime we are too busy doing square dances with the honeys to pay attention. Or RapDance or Hophip or whatever.
I will convince you by this time next year you are entirely wrong; Trinity is not viable not possible and not true. Not even close. If the powers that be tolerate.
Yeth.
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