Luke 1:47 and Luke 23:46 the word spirit is translated "pneuma:" wind, spirit. What school did you go too?JimParker said:I am a seminary graduate. I studied Biblical languages.
I not only know how to look them up; I also know how to determine which English word best fits the context.
Wind and breath do not fit anywhere that any translation of the Bible has rendered "spirit."
But I do not depend on my graduate studies because I am not an expert. I depend on the work of real experts. You are not an expert because you have found a place to look up words.
Why would you possible imagine that, because you know where to go online and look up a word in the Bible, that you are a better Bible translator than the thousands of men and women who have actually studied those languages as their lives' work who render the word "spirit" when it is appropriate to do so?
How many Bibles, that are accepted by any serious scholar, renders Jesus' words at Luke 23:46, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My BREATH.”? Or Mary's words at Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my breath has rejoiced in God my Savior."
Not a single one.
12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment
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Luke 1:47 and Luke 23:46 the word spirit is translated "pneuma:" wind, spirit. What school did you go too?JimParker said:
<< Luke 1:47 and Luke 23:46 the word spirit is translated "pneuma:" wind, spirit. >>ATP said:
Which word? Wind or spirit?
<<What school did you go too?>>
Fuller Theological Seminary.
What school did you go to?
No, death is the lack of animation of the human body. The spirit NEVER dies as it is NOT a body.brakelite said:
Using your human logic does not negate or approve what God does. Your feelings are not at issue. What the Word of God says is, and it does NOT support annihilation of the spiritual realm. Satan, fallen angels and human sprits will all endure eternal punishment which you like to term ECT.
Gen 3 refers to physical death, not spiritual death but again you obviously don't or won't accept that context. Nevertheless it is fact.
That's right, at that time of writing 1 Tim 6, Paul spoke correctly, God was the only immortal, as far as man understood immortal. Paul also teaches that when Jesus returns, those who are IN Him will receive immortality in their bodies as they are simultaneously rejoined with there spirit/souls. 1 Cor 15:53-54
According to John 4:24, God is spirit, but immortality is about the body, so these verses cannot stand alone, they must be interpreted or exegeted along with ALL scripture that deals with this issue. Was Paul stating in 1 Tim 6:13 that God gives actual life that we are born with or that God gives Jesus who is the Way, Truth and LIFE?
Well, as God told all life and mankind to go forth and multiply by the life He had already given them, then obviously the life Paul refers to is the LIFE found in Jesus.
What was Paul then trying to convey in v16 about immortality? Well as God created life and time, which are two components of immortality, neither of which God is relegated by, then Paul was speaking figuratively to people so they could understand God would never cease to exist, not that He was a human being.
Jesus paid the price for atonement, ALL atonement, ALL sin for ALL mankind. Not all will be saved, Atonement by His redemption and salvation are two separate issues.
Jesus is our Redeemer and our savior. The first is for ALL mankind, but the second is ONLY for those who receive His redemption and confess Him as their savior.
Obviously your misunderstanding of this key as to what Jesus did and who He is, regarding redemption and salvation, is flawed and therefore your understanding of what you term ECT is also flawed. There is a price to pay for not accepting Jesus as our savior, and it is as great as the reward for accepting Him as our savior.
Both are Eternal but one is LIFE as we know it and the other is existence in a place of awareness and separation from the Giver of Life.
IMO it is a fairly easy and straight forward subject, IF we know and understand ALL of God's word on the subject.
Well that's too bad but then I guess you'll never learn the truth until you do. If you want to continue to equivocate about "a" spirit then I won't bother to address posts that are obviously not sincere in their efforts to understand. Read my last post and it will show all the answers you need.Butch5 said:
You've been here long enough to know how to use this site, and if you're not willing or are too careless to bother, then I can't be bothered addressing those posts. Obviously, from this post, it won't matter in any event and would just lead to more deflection.
If we know the Word then Luke tells us how effective it is in Heb 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Usually I stay away from debates regarding the hell doctrine or the rapture theory because frankly they get far too emotional considering they are NOT salvation issues and I believe both are false doctrines based on Pagan traditions but I thought I should briefly mention a few things.
I am an Annihilationist and not a Hellist when it comes to Christian eschatology. In John 3:16 Jesus juxtaposes eternal life with death also called perishing or to perish and certainly not eternal punishment. There is quite a difference between the concept of eternal punishment and the concept of eternal punishing. I believe that God is the fire that consumes all evil at the end of the age as the Bible describes God as a consuming fire both in Deuteronomy and the book of Hebrews. The Bible describes God as Eternal meaning without beginning or end and the attributes of God as also Eternal. In order for the traditional concept of Hell to be a place that is Eternal, then by definition, Hell never had a beginning nor does it have an end. I believe that concept is not Biblically accurate and fundamentally flawed. Some have claimed that Annihilationism is only a recent concept that has only been taught as doctrine since the 19th century but in truth it has been taught since the 2nd century.
Some will claim that Hell was created for the devil and his angels. But the Greek word for "create" is certainly not found in Matthew 25:41. It is the Greek word prepare. Here is the word from Strong's concordance.
2090
etoimazw
hetoimazo
het-oy-mad'-zo
from etoimoV - hetoimos 2092; to prepare:--prepare, provide, make ready. Compare kataskeuazw - kataskeuazo 2680.
Others will claim that Hell is an everlasting fire. But the only thing mentioned in the Bible that is everlasting is God and the attributes of God and certainly not some place on another plane of existence.
The members of our church have a saying. Let the Muslims believe in their Hell and let us Christians believe that God is Just. When the time comes, God will do exactly what He says in His Word He will do to the wicked and He will destroy the wicked and they will be no more.
Psalm 37:5 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
Psalm 37:6 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
"Passed away" means in this verse that this wicked person died.
"He was not" means the wicked was annihilated.
"He could not be found" means the wicked ended in oblivion.
As one New Testament scholar put it, I find it hard to believe that the strongest words in the Greek language for death, destroy, destruction and perish can be interpreted to mean anything but what those words actually mean.
The following is a link by Edward Fudge, a New Testament scholar, writer and lecturer. I found his presentation to be educational and fair. For those of you who are interested whether you believe in the traditional concept hell, are an annihilationist or have lesser known views on Christian eschatology, spend an hour or so of your time watching it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4
I am an Annihilationist and not a Hellist when it comes to Christian eschatology. In John 3:16 Jesus juxtaposes eternal life with death also called perishing or to perish and certainly not eternal punishment. There is quite a difference between the concept of eternal punishment and the concept of eternal punishing. I believe that God is the fire that consumes all evil at the end of the age as the Bible describes God as a consuming fire both in Deuteronomy and the book of Hebrews. The Bible describes God as Eternal meaning without beginning or end and the attributes of God as also Eternal. In order for the traditional concept of Hell to be a place that is Eternal, then by definition, Hell never had a beginning nor does it have an end. I believe that concept is not Biblically accurate and fundamentally flawed. Some have claimed that Annihilationism is only a recent concept that has only been taught as doctrine since the 19th century but in truth it has been taught since the 2nd century.
Some will claim that Hell was created for the devil and his angels. But the Greek word for "create" is certainly not found in Matthew 25:41. It is the Greek word prepare. Here is the word from Strong's concordance.
2090
etoimazw
hetoimazo
het-oy-mad'-zo
from etoimoV - hetoimos 2092; to prepare:--prepare, provide, make ready. Compare kataskeuazw - kataskeuazo 2680.
Others will claim that Hell is an everlasting fire. But the only thing mentioned in the Bible that is everlasting is God and the attributes of God and certainly not some place on another plane of existence.
The members of our church have a saying. Let the Muslims believe in their Hell and let us Christians believe that God is Just. When the time comes, God will do exactly what He says in His Word He will do to the wicked and He will destroy the wicked and they will be no more.
Psalm 37:5 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
Psalm 37:6 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
"Passed away" means in this verse that this wicked person died.
"He was not" means the wicked was annihilated.
"He could not be found" means the wicked ended in oblivion.
As one New Testament scholar put it, I find it hard to believe that the strongest words in the Greek language for death, destroy, destruction and perish can be interpreted to mean anything but what those words actually mean.
The following is a link by Edward Fudge, a New Testament scholar, writer and lecturer. I found his presentation to be educational and fair. For those of you who are interested whether you believe in the traditional concept hell, are an annihilationist or have lesser known views on Christian eschatology, spend an hour or so of your time watching it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4
What does spirit mean then, if it doesn't mean wind and breath? You have me stumped.JimParker said:
I recognize your name Katabole, but can't remember where from.Katabole said:
As you are coming into a thread that is well over 350 posts in, and haven't addressed ANY of the refutation of the OP, I find this post just more of the same rhetoric in support of the OP.
I find no credibility in Edward Fudge, his theological premise nor the denominational bias he comes from. That you also discount the rapture is just more reason for me to not pay any attention whatsoever to your reasons given here.
To be clear in regards to the OP, despite ECT not being a label used by those that support the concept, clearly there is soul existence AFTER the death of the body.
Rev 6:9 shows this;
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
If that is not clear enough for some, then later on in 14:9-11, John writes;
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
I have posted many others scriptures in addition to these so I won't bother repeating myself.
Wayne Jackson in the Christian Courier concludes;
The doctrine of eternal punishment was taught by Jesus Christ (who said more about hell than heaven), it was acknowledged by the early church, it was endorsed by the “church fathers” (Buis 1957, 53-67), and it was defended by the theologians of the Middle Ages and the Reformation period. However, beginning with the eighteenth century a new wave of “clergymen” within the ranks of “Christendom” began to deny this fundamental tenet of biblical doctrine, and today a significant segment of American society (almost half) no longer believes in hell.
Further, the evidence is mounting that there is a weakening posture on this theme within the church. It is time that faithful gospel preachers give more diligence to teaching the truth regarding eternal retribution. Ignoring the truth changes no reality.
It is with great joy that I read your last quote Stan, in particular the part that says the modern church is revising its traditional view of hell. It is about time the church stopped insulting God with this abhorrent false doctrine. It is about time the church ceased from portraying God as One whose sense of justice is never assuaged. It is about time the church repented of believing a lie of Satan, ye shall not surely die. It is about time the church stopped teaching that those redeemed and enjoying the glories of heaven and/or the new earth do so even though they are aware of the ongoing and everlasting intense suffering, pain, and horror of perhaps even their own children, their parents, their siblings, their former neighbors. It is about time the church taught what the word of God teaches...that the wages of sin is death....without doing the linguistic gymnastics necessary to justify the opposite.
Right. Nonbelievers are consumed, destroyed, like stubble, swept away...but ECT says they're not? Death is the opposite of life, and mortality is the opposite of immortality. If nonbelievers are not clothed with the imperishable, then how do they live. How is that possible? - Blessings.brakelite said:
1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
The souls of the martyrs literally underneath the alter? This is part of why this doctrine continues to exist. The book of Revelation is filled figurative language. If these souls are disembodied consciousnesses how then does they wear robes?StanJ said:
It's figurative language Stan. What was under the altar in the OT? It was blood, when the animals were sacrificed the unused blood was poured out at the base of the altar. This happened day after day, year after year. After many years that ground would be saturated with blood. What was in the blood? The soul was in the blood.
10 `And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11 `For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.' (Lev 17:10-11 NKJ)
The soul of the flesh is in the blood. So, in the OT the souls of the sacrifices were under the altar. The souls of the ones sacrificed to God were under the altar. Can you see the parallel? The souls of the ones who sacrificed themselves for God's service were under the altar.
Notice that the souls under the altar are crying out. What is under the altar? The blood. What is in the blood the soul. There is another parallel.
10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground. (Gen 4:10 NKJ)
We can see the soul in the blood and the blood under the altar and we can see Abel's blood crying out and the souls under the altar crying out. I think we can be pretty certain that Rev 4 is using figurative language.
In addition, I don't believe you'll find any place in Scripture where the word soul is used of a disembodied consciousness.
Also, Rev. 14 9-11 is speaking of people who are alive, not dead. The passage speaks of those who receive the mark of the beast. That is done by the living not the dead. Also, if you look at the next verse you'll see that the saints are there. Would suggest that the saints are in this place of ETC?
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those1 who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14:9-12 NKJ)
The Greek word translated "here" means, in this place.
Really?? You're stumped?? You really do NOT know what the word "spirit" means?ATP said:
You asked me what school I went to and I answered your question.
I asked YOU what school you went to and you did not answer my question.
I'll ask again; what school did you go to? Graduate school? College? High school? Did you graduate from any of those?
And, how did you manage to get through whatever schooling you had and NOT know the meaning of the word "spirit"?
Most of the sentences in the Bible that have the word "spirit" in it do not make sense if you insert "wind" or "breath."
How is it that you have not noticed that?
Also (this may come as a complete surprise to you) the definition of the word "spirit" can be found in any decent dictionary.
Finally, if you want to have a real conversation then please don't play juvenile games like saying you don't have any idea what the word "spirit" might mean other than wind or breath when NOBODY uses the word in that context in normal conversation. I'm not your school guidance counselor who might fall for that kind of crap. Please get real.
That's a cop out Stan, why not just admit your doctrine doesn't stand in the light of Scripture? You keep talking about people being in denial, I'd suggest looking in the mirror. There is a huge difference between saying I have a spirit and saying I am a spirit. Just like there is a huge difference between saying I have a truck and I am a truck.StanJ said:
kinda harsh isn't it?JimParker said:
The real question is why did the translators translate a word that means wind or breath as spirit instead of wind or breath?
<< kinda harsh isn't it?>>Butch5 said:
I don't play juvenlle games. I'm to old for that baloney. It's hard enough to communicate via posts without people refusing to say what they think or mean.
<< The real question is why did the translators translate a word that mean wind or breath as spirit instead of wind or breath?>>
No, the real question is: Why do untrained people who are ignorant, as far as translation is concerned, (like myself, which is why I trust the professionals) think they are somehow smarter than literally thousands of real scholars who have consistently used the word "spirit" for the last 2000 years?
Why would anyone use the bogus translation of the word which is so highly favored by known frauds like Ellen G. White and Charles Taze Russell?
Excellent post Butch, thanks. I was reading the passage just yesterday and was wondering how defenders of eternal torment explain how this passage says the presence of God and of angels and of men is with those "in hell" when at the same time said defenders of ET would claim "death" is separation from God? If these ones who are being tormented in the presence of the Lamb are dead, then death cannot be separation from God, yet we know it is. Therefore those who are being tormented must be still alive!!!Butch5 said:
ET, and the idea that spawned it, the natural immortality of the soul, is a doctrine fraught with inconsistencies, impossibilities, and nonsensical conclusions.
Rev. 6:9-11
This is a vision and speaks of the future, similar to Matt 17 Transfiguration. I believe that Rev 6:9-11 is talking about after rapture. It is a vision of the future saints. I also believe rapture occurs at the sixth seal. The fifth and sixth seal are close to each other in timing, and God's wrath is poured out after rapture. God's wrath is stated in verse 10, where it says "until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" The timing of the rapture or sometime after rapture is stated in verse 11 where it says "and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been".
Rev 6:10-11 NIV They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
This is a vision and speaks of the future, similar to Matt 17 Transfiguration. I believe that Rev 6:9-11 is talking about after rapture. It is a vision of the future saints. I also believe rapture occurs at the sixth seal. The fifth and sixth seal are close to each other in timing, and God's wrath is poured out after rapture. God's wrath is stated in verse 10, where it says "until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" The timing of the rapture or sometime after rapture is stated in verse 11 where it says "and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been".
Rev 6:10-11 NIV They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Personally I couldn't give a toss whether Russel or White or any such as yourself who spent time in Bible colleges, seminaries, Universities, and had numerous letters after their names attesting to their "scholarly expertise" teach either yay or nay when it comes to ET....the Spirit of Christ in me rears up in justifiable indignation at the constant heaping of slander and insult upon the character of God from those who propagate this false teaching. I could not care less what the translators say is the meaning of one word in scripture...the Bible is not word inspired....I wear my heart on my sleeve...I love Jesus...and it pains me to constantly hear the lame empty superficial human reasoning in a desperate attempt to justify a pagan inspired doctrine that has no true place in Christian teaching and that insults and slanders the character of a God of love and mercy and true justice. Me, I am not a Bible student with honours etc. I did not graduate from a college with language experience. But I know enough to understand when I don't see a 'thus sayeth the Lord" in support of any doctrine, I leave it aside. ET and the sinner's immortality is one such doctrine.JimParker said:
Interesting post Jim. Well, in order to know what spirit means you would need a Hebrew or Greek dictionary because scripture was written in Hebrew and Greek. 1+1=2.JimParker said:
WOW! I guess we have ample evidence from you now about just how bad you filter what you read through the lens of your fallacious dogma....a real example of eisegesis.brakelite said:
When faced with the truth, you equivocate then prevaricate. Very sad.
Phoneman777
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You related a story (used to falsely claim that I believe God requires something in addition to the blood of Jesus for salvation, but that's another thread) of how Jesus offered to dig a ditch that a ditch-digger was hired to dig and that Jesus dug the entire ditch for him - not part of it, not most of it, but all of it.JimParker said:
Now, listen to me very closely:
If the punishment for the sinner is death and death = eternal torment, what would Jesus have to do in order to take our place and take our punishment upon Himself, just as He took the place of the ditch-digger and did all that was required for him?
One day of torment? A month of torment? No, nothing less than an eternity of torment will suffice, if the wages of sin is eternal torment, just as nothing less than an entire ditch would have sufficed for the ditch-digger. But Jesus was never consigned to an eternity of torment, therefore the wages of sin is NOT eternal torment - the wages of sin is death and that's exactly what Scripture says Jesus suffered.
<< Personally I couldn't give a toss whether Russel or White or any such as yourself who spent time in Bible colleges, seminaries, Universities, and had numerous letters after their names attesting to their "scholarly expertise">>brakelite said:
Of course not; you already know everything. I get that kind of arrogance attitude from most every self-proclaimed, Bible-genius peddling their crackpot knowledge "from the Holy Spirit."
It's also common fare among religion frauds who play on the ignorance and pride of gullible people.
Would you trust your life to a surgeon who hadn't gone to medical school and had the letters "M.D." after his name but said he was taught how to do brain surgery by the Holy Ghost?
But you'd trust your eternal life to some ignorant, babbler who claims that "God told him."
Good luck with that.
The cults are full of such ignorant, gullible, people who delight in being told how they have been taught the "really true truth of the secret remnant of God that none of those stupid Ph.D.s know anything about."
You have a nice day there Mr. Bible Genius.
So, are you (or anyone else currently posting here who says the correct translation is breath and wind) an exert in Hebrew and Greek?ATP said:
If so, can you explain where all those hundreds professional translators with Ph.D.s in Greek and Hebrew are wrong and you are right.
Please, clarify that for me.
<< You related a story (used to falsely claim that I believe God requires something in addition to the blood of Jesus for salvation, but that's another thread) of how Jesus offered to dig a ditch that a ditch-digger was hired to dig and that Jesus dug the entire ditch for him - not part of it, not most of it, but all of it.>>Phoneman777 said:
No, I did not ever relate such a story. I had never heard of any such story until I just read it in your post.
The church ( the people who gave us the scriptures) has never taught that the wicked dead cease to exist. That is an invention of ignorant, crackpots like E. G. White et. al. They have as much credibility as the devil.
Any translator with half a mind knows that the Bible was written in Hebrew Greek.JimParker said:
You are the only one who is having a problem accepting this.
Notice I said written. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek.
Spirit is an English word.
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