12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[Butch5]

Come on Butch, that is avoidance and to be productive you have to support your view with ACTUAL scripture, not just allude to the Bible generally.

In 2 Peter 3:9, the Greek ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi) is in regards to physical animation, NOT spirit. Spirits on their own can't repent, only animated or living human beings can.

Stan,

It's not avoidance, the Scriptures are clear. The ECT doctrine is based on a few mistranslated verses. What are the wages of sin? Death, For God so loved the world that whoever believes may have eternal life and not what? Perish.

Spirits have nothing to do with men perishing. Man isn't a spirit. The whole ETC doctrine is based on a false premise. It's based on the idea that there is a part of man that can live on when the body dies, however, that is not what Scripture teaches.

In the other post I asked you present some evidence for your "spiritual" claim regarding Jude.

But Rev 4:8 and Rev 7:15-16 are not talking about wicked men. It's referring to angelic beings and saints.

Yes, I was using the wicked man analogy to show that the phrase "day and night" doesn't refer eternal but only continuous. Something that is continuous, day and night, could go on forever or it could end. The point what that the length of time is determined by other factors not the phrase day or night.

 

[StanJ]

Regarding the Mathew 25, I submit the word aionios does not mean eternal. Aionios means an age. The length of any age must be determined by factors outside of the definition of age or aion. If I ask 10 people, "what is you age" surely they wouldn't all say, eternity, I have existed for all eternity. As soon as a exact length of time is given as definition for age it can no longer mean a different length of time. So, if aion(ios) is defined as eternal then it can no longer mean a fixed period of time. However, it is used all through the Scriptures of a fixed period of time. That is why we have the poor translation that say the ordinances of the Mosaic Law and Aaronic Priesthood are for ever when Jesus and Paul both said they ended.

I know you submit, but what are your credentials and why do they supersede the vast majority of preeminent Greek scholars?
We're not talking about human opinion, we are talking about qualified Greek scholars who use form and function as part of their repertoire. God is clearly defined as without beginning or end and if you can show me where the Bible gives God's age I'll consider your rational, but you can't so I won't.
The point is, that it is NOT used throughout scripture as a fixed time. I have asked several times for examples which you seem reticent to supply, for obvious reasons.
As I asked, and you failed to address, do you not believe Christians will have ETERNAL life? It's the same word in Matthew 25 for both LIFE and PUNISHMENT.

The Scriptures were originally written in a Hebraic language and aion was used to translate Olam into Greek in the LXX. So, if we really want to get at what is being portrayed we need to understand what OLam means as that is what was originally written. All of these NT promises of eternal life originate in the OT. So, aion is translating the concept of Olam. A literal definition is what is at or beyond the horizon. When related to time it suggests a time that is far off.

So, in Mathew 25 aion is used of both life and punishment, however, that doesn't mean that in both cases aion (age) is the same length of time.

There is also an argument made by some that rather than denoting the length of duration of actually punishment aion is referring to finality of the punishment. For instance, if the punishment is destruction, then that destruction is eternal. Once on is destroyed they will "NEVER" exist again as opposed to the currnet death where all will be raised from the dead.

I don't argue this argument because I don't think aion means eternal, however, for those who do, this is a perfectly logical and Scriptural argument.

But day and night doesn't mean eternal. One could suffer day and night for 5 years and another could live in bliss day and night for 10 years. I don't see where this affects the definition of aion

The OT may have originally been in Hebrew, but the oldest extant scriptures we do have is the LXX and as it was written by 70 actual Hebrew OT scholars in and around 350 BC, it is as accurate as it should be. Again, you assert the people that did the actual transposition or translating from Hebrew to Greek did NOT know what they were doing, and that is fallacious to say the least.

It does mean that or Jesus would have used different words to describe the duration. Apparently you believe inspired does not mean accurate and that is disingenuous to say the least.

You don't get punished forever if you are obliterated from time. Those who MAY purport that are obviously biased to your POV, but no scholar worth his weight in salt, says that.

It is circular Butch, not logical, but we know the word of God is not logical based on how humans determine logic, so unless you are willing to exercise faith in believing what God's word does say despite in your view, the so-called illogical tests, it will never make sense.

I don't know what scripture you are alluding to by day & night, but the context of it will determine what it connotes. Eternal is another matter.

 

[ATP]

Yes, I was using the wicked man analogy to show that the phrase "day and night" doesn't refer eternal but only continuous. Something that is continuous, day and night, could go on forever or it could end. The point what that the length of time is determined by other factors not the phrase day or night.

Why would John use "day and night" as eternal in one spot and temporal in another spot. Doesn't make sense brother.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

It's not avoidance, the Scriptures are clear. The ECT doctrine is based on a few mistranslated verses. What are the wages of sin? Death, For God so loved the world that whoever believes may have eternal life and not what? Perish.

Spirits have nothing to do with men perishing. Man isn't a spirit. The whole ETC doctrine is based on a false premise. It's based on the idea that there is a part of man that can live on when the body dies, however, that is not what Scripture teaches.

In the other post I asked you present some evidence for your "spiritual" claim regarding Jude.

Yes, I was using the wicked man analogy to show that the phrase "day and night" doesn't refer eternal but only continuous. Something that is continuous, day and night, could go on forever or it could end. The point what that the length of time is determined by other factors not the phrase day or night.

This doesn't work Butch as I have already shown you so please stop all the equivocation and spell it out exegetically.

Man is body/soul/spirit, triune and made in God's image as He is Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Again this unorthodox view is not Biblical just as ECT is NOT.

I did, but you didn't buy it so I can't help you.

Yes, so hence the need for context, but pulling OUT a word from within the context and saying it isn't subject to the context is eisegesis, NOT exegesis.

 

[ATP]

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

Notice it says, I, am, I, I, I...as in person perishing, not spirit.

 

[Butch5]

This doesn't work Butch as I have already shown you so please stop all the equivocation and spell it out exegetically.

Man is body/soul/spirit, triune and made in God's image as He is Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Again this unorthodox view is not Biblical just as ECT is NOT.

I did, but you didn't buy it so I can't help you.

Yes, so hence the need for context, but pulling OUT a word from within the context and saying it isn't subject to the context is eisegesis, NOT exegesis.

What are you talking about Stan?

I've not equivicated so I don't know what you are talking about. According to Scripture man "IS" a soul composed of a body and breath/spirit.

 

[StanJ]

What are you talking about Stan?

I've not equivicated so I don't know what you are talking about. According to Scripture man "IS" a soul composed of a body and breath/spirit.

Like I said, it's all in the previous posts in back and white Butch.

Actually it says we are MADE in God's image, so we are triune as God is. Animals don't have a soul/spirit, they have body and life, we have body/life and spirit. Our spirit survives death, but we are made or purposed to be triune forever, which is why we are offered Eternal Life as a reward for accepting Jesus as our savior. That Eternal Life is in Body/Soul/Spirit.

 

[ATP]

If God devoured, consumed the army of Satan by fire, then what exactly are they throwing into the lake of fire in verse 10?

Rev 20:9-10 NIV They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Butch5]

I know you submit, but what are your credentials and why do they supersede the vast majority of preeminent Greek scholars?
We're not talking about human opinion, we are talking about qualified Greek scholars who use form and function as part of their repertoire. God is clearly defined as without beginning or end and if you can show me where the Bible gives God's age I'll consider your rational, but you can't so I won't.
The point is, that it is NOT used throughout scripture as a fixed time. I have asked several times for examples which you seem reticent to supply, for obvious reasons.
As I asked, and you failed to address, do you not believe Christians will have ETERNAL life? It's the same word in Matthew 25 for both LIFE and PUNISHMENT.

The OT may have originally been in Hebrew, but the oldest extant scriptures we do have is the LXX and as it was written by 70 actual Hebrew OT scholars in and around 350 BC, it is as accurate as it should be. Again, you assert the people that did the actual transposition or translating from Hebrew to Greek did NOT know what they were doing, and that is fallacious to say the least.

It does mean that or Jesus would have used different words to describe the duration. Apparently you believe inspired does not mean accurate and that is disingenuous to say the least.

You don't get punished forever if you are obliterated from time. Those who MAY purport that are obviously biased to your POV, but no scholar worth his weight in salt, says that.

It is circular Butch, not logical, but we know the word of God is not logical based on how humans determine logic, so unless you are willing to exercise faith in believing what God's word does say despite in your view, the so-called illogical tests, it will never make sense.

I don't know what scripture you are alluding to by day & night, but the context of it will determine what it connotes. Eternal is another matter.

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

I know you submit, but what are your credentials and why do they supersede the vast majority of preeminent Greek scholars?

[SIZE=10pt]We're not talking about human opinion, we are talking about qualified Greek scholars who use form and function as part of their repertoire. God is clearly defined as without beginning or end and if you can show me where the Bible gives God's age I'll consider your rational, but you can't so I won't.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The point is, that it is NOT used throughout scripture as a fixed time. I have asked several times for examples which you seem reticent to supply, for obvious reasons.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. One doesn’t need to be a Greek scholar to see common sense. Something that ends cannot be etneral[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]All you had to do was to read the passages already presented. I already presented the passage from Jude showing that aionios fire is not eternal. You gave some excuse the it’s spiritual for which I am still awaiting evidence.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Here are few more to chew on.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]34[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] `For the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering I have taken from the children of Israel, from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and I have given them to Aaron the priest and to his sons from the children of Israel by a statute forever.'" (Lev 7:34 NKJ)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]35[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] This is the consecrated portion for Aaron and his sons, from the offerings made by fire to the LORD, on the day when Moses presented them to minister to the LORD as priests. (Lev 7:35 NKJ)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]9[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] "Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, (Lev 10:9 NKJ)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]15[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] "The thigh of the heave offering and the breast of the wave offering they shall bring with the offerings of fat made by fire, to offer as a wave offering before the LORD. And it shall be yours and your sons' with you, by a statute forever, as the LORD has commanded." (Lev 10:15 NKJ)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Let me know if you want more.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

As I asked, and you failed to address, do you not believe Christians will have ETERNAL life? It's the same word in Matthew 25

[SIZE=10pt]for both LIFE and PUNISHMENT.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]And I answered it. Aionios does not mean eternal in either place. It is aionios life or aionios punishment. The punishment is aionios fire which we can see is not eternal. I’ve already given you a logical biblical argument for this for those who view the word aionios as eternal. Scripture says the wicked will be destroyed, that destruction is permanent, eternal. They will never be resurrected again. So either way this passage doesn’t support that ETC doctrine. Any passage that can be used to support both sides proves neither.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]We don’t need to use the word aionios to prove Christians have eternal life, that can be determined from other passages. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=9pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The OT may have originally been in Hebrew, but the oldest extant scriptures we do have is the LXX and as it was written by 70 actual Hebrew OT scholars in and around 350 BC, it is as accurate as it should be. Again, you assert the people that did the actual transposition or translating from Hebrew to Greek did NOT know what they were doing, and that is fallacious to say the least.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What in the world are you talking about? I pointed out that aion was used to translate olam and said we need to understand olam. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

It does mean that or Jesus would have used different words to describe the duration.

[SIZE=10pt]That’s speculation. How do you know what Jesus would have said? It’s an argument from silence. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

Apparently you believe inspired does not mean accurate and that is disingenuous to say the least.

[SIZE=10pt]Wrong again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

You don't get punished forever if you are obliterated from time.

[SIZE=10pt]If the punishment is destruction you do. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

Those who MAY purport that are obviously biased to your POV, but no scholar worth his weight in salt, says that.

[SIZE=10pt]Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

It is circular Butch, not logical, but we know the word of God is not logical based on how humans determine logic, so unless you are willing to exercise faith in believing what God's word does say despite in your view, the so-called illogical tests, it will never make sense.

[SIZE=10pt]God is the one who created logic and laws of logic. He communicates to man via logic.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]KJV [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 1:18[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isa 1:18 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If one denies logic and reason then they have an excuse to believe anything they want. [/SIZE]

Like I said, it's all in the previous posts in back and white Butch.

Actually it says we are MADE in God's image, so we are triune as God is. Animals don't have a soul/spirit, they have body and life, we have body/life and spirit. Our spirit survives death, but we are made or purposed to be triune forever, which is why we are offered Eternal Life as a reward for accepting Jesus as our savior. That Eternal Life is in Body/Soul/Spirit.

Where in Scripture does it say being made in God's image means triune? Nowhere.

Yes animals do have spirits and they "ARE" souls.

KJV Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen 1:21 KJV)

KJV Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. (Gen 1:24 KJV)

KJV Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. (Gen 2:19 KJV)

In each of these passages the word creature is "Nephesh" soul.

Animals also have a spirit/breath it's the same spirit/breath that man has.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. {that God...: or, that they might clear God, and see, etc} 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:1 KJV)

Both man and animal have one breath/spirit. We know from Gen 2 that that spirit is God's. Therefore there is no spirit that "IS" man

If God devoured, consumed the army of Satan by fire, then what exactly are they throwing into the lake of fire in verse 10?

Rev 20:9-10 NIV They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The army was consumed and the devil cast into the lake of fire.

 

[ATP]

The army was consumed and the devil cast into the lake of fire.

Something just occurred to me.
Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift.
To be burned forever,
nonbelievers would also need to be immortal because their heart would still be beating in the lake of fire.
Immortality is only given to saints though.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 2:27 NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relate to believers..

Matt 25:46 NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, give to us by the Father..

Gen 3:21-24 NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Amen. - ATP

 

[Butch5]

Something just occurred to me.
Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift.
To be burned forever,
nonbelievers would also need to be immortal because their heart would still be beating in the lake of fire.
Immortality is only given to saints though.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 2:27 NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relate to believers..

Matt 25:46 NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, give to us by the Father..

Gen 3:21-24 NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Amen. - ATP

Yes, I guess we didn't discuss that. I've had so many conversations it's hard to remember what I said where. That is another of the problems with ECT. Scripture says the gift of eternal life is for the believer. According to ETC though everyone has eternal life. In the ETC doctrine it's just where one spends that eternal life. But yes, according to the ETC doctrine everyone must receive eternal life, which is clearly not what the Scriptures teach.

 

[ATP]

Yes, I guess we didn't discuss that. I've had so many conversations it's hard to remember what I said where. That is another of the problems with ECT. Scripture says the gift of eternal life is for the believer. According to ETC though everyone has eternal life. In the ETC doctrine it's just where one spends that eternal life. But yes, according to the ETC doctrine everyone must receive eternal life, which is clearly not what the Scriptures teach.

I apologize Butch if I put you through the grinder. I was just searching for truth. In all reality, the truth is in the definitions.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

 

[Butch5]

I apologize Butch if I put you through the grinder. I was just searching for truth. In all reality, the truth is in the definitions.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

No problem my friend, I'm glad I could help. I applaud your search for truth, I too am always searching for the truth. It would be great if everyone would search for truth.

 

[ATP]

No problem my friend, I'm glad I could help. I applaud your search for truth, I too am always searching for the truth. It would be great if everyone would search for truth.

You can use post 330 for Stan if you want. Shalom, ATP.

 

[Butch5]

You can use post 330 for Stan if you want. Shalom, ATP.

Thanks, I'll point it out to him!

 

[ATP]

Thanks, I'll point it out to him!

So if nonbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire and then destroyed, what's the purpose of that. What is God doing there. Why is he doing that.

 

[StanJ]

Sorry Butch, but your post 329 is a mess in the formatting. Please try and clean it up and I'll look at it again. Also try to respond with refutation not just denials.
Thanks

Thanks, I'll point it out to him!

ATP is on my ignore list, so I don't ready his posts. No sense pointing out someone I ignore.

Yes, I guess we didn't discuss that. I've had so many conversations it's hard to remember what I said where. That is another of the problems with ECT. Scripture says the gift of eternal life is for the believer. According to ETC though everyone has eternal life. In the ETC doctrine it's just where one spends that eternal life. But yes, according to the ETC doctrine everyone must receive eternal life, which is clearly not what the Scriptures teach.

LIFE is what you are experiencing now Butch. It is not solely the spiritual realm. As the scriptures clearly show that a spiritual realm exists post death of our bodies, that existence will be eternal IF one is not saved, in order to receive Eternal Life. We receive our gift of eternal life WHEN Jesus returns as Paul teaches in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:51-53. Heb 9:27 shows ALL men die at least once. This is a physical death, NOT a spiritual one.

 

[ATP]

Stan writes, "This is a physical death, NOT a spiritual one."

Jesus writes, "Matt 10:28 NIV Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

ATP writes, "If it's not a spiritual death, then why is the word soul in Matt 10:28".

Something to think about...

The Hebrew term deraon translated "contempt" also appears in Isaiah 66:24 in which it is translated "loathsome". The image of an unquencheable fire is simply designed to convey the thought of being completely burned up or consumed. It has nothing to do with the everlasting punishment of immortal souls. The passage speaks clearly of "dead bodies" which are consumed and not of immortal souls which are tormented eternally.

Isa 66:24 NIV "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome (deraon) to all mankind."

Dan 12:2 NIV Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (deraon).

but he was definitely alive as were the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in the illustration which Jesus gave. (Luke 16:20-31)

Since spirits are considered breath and wind, how does breath and wind have a finger and tongue?

Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

- ATP

 

[Butch5]

Sorry Butch, but your post 329 is a mess in the formatting. Please try and clean it up and I'll look at it again. Also try to respond with refutation not just denials.
Thanks

ATP is on my ignore list, so I don't ready his posts. No sense pointing out someone I ignore.

Do you not know what you wrote? I gave refutation. So far all I've seen from you is denial. It doesn't mean that or it's spiritual.

I have seen the first attempt at making a case, let alone a refutation.

LIFE is what you are experiencing now Butch. It is not solely the spiritual realm. As the scriptures clearly show that a spiritual realm exists post death of our bodies, that existence will be eternal IF one is not saved, in order to receive Eternal Life. We receive our gift of eternal life WHEN Jesus returns as Paul teaches in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:51-53. Heb 9:27 shows ALL men die at least once. This is a physical death, NOT a spiritual one.

[/QUOTE]You've yet to prove that man is a spirit. Why do you believe that the unsaved are given the gift of God?

There are just to many problems with that doctrine for it to be Biblical.

So if nonbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire and then destroyed, what's the purpose of that. What is God doing there. Why is he doing that.

The purpose is to restore the world to the way it was at the creation, pure, when God said, 'it is good.'

 

[ATP]

The purpose is to restore the world to the way it was at the creation, pure, when God said, 'it is good.'

Good answer.