brakelite said:
The supporters of ECT opine that 'death', as far as the wicked are concerned, is 'separation from God'. My question is: this 'death', which is clearly a variant of eternal life - is it natural, or a gift from God?
If it is a gift, it does seem incongruous that God would be granting eternal life to someone for the sole purpose of tormenting (or torturing) them. Where is justice and mercy? We rightly condemn Hitler for the atrocities committed with his approval and sanction, yet I dare say that Hitler only in his insanity would consider torturing anyone forever if he had the power. Yet we give God credit for this idea and call it justice?
And if the death of the wicked is not really death, (in other words God was lying to Adam and Satan was telling the truth when he said 'Ye shall not surely die") but we are all naturally immortal, then what are we to do with
1 Timothy 6:13 ¶ I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality......
Now of course one may answer "our bodies die but our spirits live for-ever". If that is the case you still have difficulty with the above verse, because God is Spirit. And according to that verse, the only immortal one.
For me there is really no difficulty regarding ECT. Either Jesus paid the full price for our atonement, or He didn't. If He did, then ECT is man-made, it goes beyond the price of redemption which Jesus paid. If Jesus didn't pay the full price of our redemption, then we are all doomed to ECT, regardless of whether we accepted Jesus sacrifice or not, for there was in such a case no true propitiation.
No, death is the lack of animation of the human body. The spirit NEVER dies as it is NOT a body.
Using your human logic does not negate or approve what God does. Your feelings are not at issue. What the Word of God says is, and it does NOT support annihilation of the spiritual realm. Satan, fallen angels and human sprits will all endure eternal punishment which you like to term ECT.
Gen 3 refers to physical death, not spiritual death but again you obviously don't or won't accept that context. Nevertheless it is fact.
That's right, at that time of writing 1 Tim 6, Paul spoke correctly, God was the only immortal, as far as man understood immortal. Paul also teaches that when Jesus returns, those who are IN Him will receive immortality in their bodies as they are simultaneously rejoined with there spirit/souls. 1 Cor 15:53-54
According to John 4:24, God is spirit, but immortality is about the body, so these verses cannot stand alone, they must be interpreted or exegeted along with ALL scripture that deals with this issue. Was Paul stating in 1 Tim 6:13 that God gives actual life that we are born with or that God gives Jesus who is the Way, Truth and LIFE?
Well, as God told all life and mankind to go forth and multiply by the life He had already given them, then obviously the life Paul refers to is the LIFE found in Jesus.
What was Paul then trying to convey in v16 about immortality? Well as God created life and time, which are two components of immortality, neither of which God is relegated by, then Paul was speaking figuratively to people so they could understand God would never cease to exist, not that He was a human being.
Jesus paid the price for atonement, ALL atonement, ALL sin for ALL mankind. Not all will be saved, Atonement by His redemption and salvation are two separate issues.
Jesus is our Redeemer and our savior. The first is for ALL mankind, but the second is ONLY for those who receive His redemption and confess Him as their savior.
Obviously your misunderstanding of this key as to what Jesus did and who He is, regarding redemption and salvation, is flawed and therefore your understanding of what you term ECT is also flawed. There is a price to pay for not accepting Jesus as our savior, and it is as great as the reward for accepting Him as our savior.
Both are Eternal but one is LIFE as we know it and the other is existence in a place of awareness and separation from the Giver of Life.
IMO it is a fairly easy and straight forward subject, IF we know and understand ALL of God's word on the subject.
Butch5 said:
I can agree with one thing you've said, 'this type of response is typical of people who can't support their assertions'. I haven't seen anything from you that teaches that man is a spirit. Posting passages that say man has a spirit is not the same as saying man "IS" a spirit. If I say I have a truck that doesn't mean I am a truck. All you've given are passages that tell us man has spirit, no one is debating that.
You say you addressed my posts yet I haven't see a reply to the passages where olam and aion are used of finite periods of time. I've asked twice why you believe the gift of God is given to the wicked, no reply. You didn't address post 329 but rather said it's not formatted properly left it at that. So, it seems to me that if anyone is in denial here it's not me.
You said God only breathed life into the life He created in Gen 1. Scripture says otherwise.
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world? {the whole: Heb. all of it?}
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; {man: Heb. him}
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:12-15 KJV)
This passage states plainly that if God retrieved his Neshamah and His Ruach all flesh would perish. That means He is keep every living thing alive continuously. Also, notice that if God did retrieve His Neshamah and His Ruach, man would turn again to dust, not suffer for eternity.
Paul,
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)
In this passage life is a present tense participle. Notice the translation, He gives life to all things, not He gave, but, He gives.
Well that's too bad but then I guess you'll never learn the truth until you do. If you want to continue to equivocate about "a" spirit then I won't bother to address posts that are obviously not sincere in their efforts to understand. Read my last post and it will show all the answers you need.
You've been here long enough to know how to use this site, and if you're not willing or are too careless to bother, then I can't be bothered addressing those posts. Obviously, from this post, it won't matter in any event and would just lead to more deflection.
If we know the Word then Luke tells us how effective it is in Heb 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.