Soul sleep

kerwin said:

It can be interpreted that way but it is necessary what he means. The first body is the unchanged body and the second is the changed but yet they are the same body. The change can be fairly extreme and that would still be true. For example, a woman has an ax and its handle breaks. She puts a new handle on it and yet it is the same ax. The body is changed from being mortal to being immortal. The rest is poetic flavoring and repetition of that fact.

He also uses some Jewish teachings and so he may be speaking to converts from the Sadducee denomination.

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You can interpret it that way,however I don't....Especially when I look at

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

n2thelight said:

You can interpret it that way,however I don't....Especially when I look at

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

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Yes, the breath of life was given by God and returns to God when a human dies,

The breath is not the soul but instead came together with the body to make the soul. The soul "descends" to the Netherworld as a person dies.

Genesis 37:35New American Standard Bible (NASB)

35 Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.

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Phoneman777 said:

kerwin, why do you fight the plain truth that death is the OPPOSITE of life? A Dead thing is a thing that is not living. A Dead Soul is a Soul that is no longer alive, not a Soul that continues life elsewhere.

You who preach eternal torment agree with Satan when he said, "Thou shalt not SURELY die". You say we are immortal, either in the smoking or non-smoking section.

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God does not lie, but human are known to do so!

Exodus 3:6New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

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Scripture is not broken and God is not the God of the dead.

Try not to be a Sadducee!

Note: The argument is Jesus'. (Matthew 22:31-33)

n2thelight said:

You can interpret it that way,however I don't....Especially when I look at

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

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Yes, the Spirit of every single Living Soul, whether of a saint, sinner, or creature of the animal kingdom - returns to God at the death of that Living Soul which ceases to be a Living Soul and becomes a Dead Soul, or a Soul that no longer exists. You can't separate the parts from the whole and still yet claim the whole is still a whole, so why agree with Genesis 2:7 KJV that the Living Soul is formed by the union of the Body and the Breath of Life but then insist that the Living Soul yet continues to exist as a whole after the parts are separated from it?

kerwin said:

God does not lie, but human are known to do so!


Scripture is not broken and God is not the God of the dead.

Try not to be a Sadducee!

Note: The argument is Jesus'. (Matthew 22:31-33)

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And I'll ask you to not agree with the Devil when he told Eve "thou shalt not surely die". Death is the absence of life, not the continuation of it.

kerwin said:

Yes, the breath of life was given by God and returns to God when a human dies,

The breath is not the soul but instead came together with the body to make the soul. The soul "descends" to the Netherworld as a person dies.

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A Soul "descending into the Netherworld" is just a symbolic way of stating that the Soul passes out of existence. Greek mythology is responsible for the idea that the dead really aren't "surely" dead, but still alive on another plane of existence.

n2thelight said:

Did Paul from scripture not say that we have two bodies?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were.

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Paul spoke of "two" bodies in the context of wearing them in succession, not simultaneously. Therefore, when the Body returns to the dust and the Spirit (of every Living Soul whether a saint, sinner, or of the animal kingdom) returns to God, the Living Soul passes out of existence in death. In the resurrection, God provides the just second eternal Body in which He will breath the Spirit and that Dead Soul shall break forth into existence as a Living Soul which will be alive forever more.

Please, neither you nor I nor anyone possess immortality, so why do you all keep insisting that the Living Soul is not subject to death? Immortality is possessed by God alone (1 Timothy 6:16 KJV) is only granted to those who seek for it (Romans 2:6-8 KJV). "Immortality" means "not subject to death. The idea of a "soul" being kept alive in torment for all eternity is at complete odds with the Bible.

Phoneman777 said:

And I'll ask you to not agree with the Devil when he told Eve "thou shalt not surely die". Death is the absence of life, not the continuation of it.

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You are in disagreement with Jesus' words with you claim the soul is destroyed at death.

Humans do not have the ability to destroy both the body and soul only God does and he does it by throwing the person into the lake of fire. Non-existence does not fulfill the requirement.

Abraham was in some way alive when God testify he was Abraham's God even though Abraham's body had been destroyed. Non-existence does fulfill the requirement.

The soul descends to Sheol; which some translations call the Grave or other things such as Hell. Non-existence does not fulfill requirement.

In short your hypothesis tests false according Scriptural witnesses and yet you still choose to hold on to it.

The Word of God trumps your word and you have failed to convince me that your word is God's Word.

Phoneman777 said:

A Soul "descending into the Netherworld" is just a symbolic way of stating that the Soul passes out of existence. Greek mythology is responsible for the idea that the dead really aren't "surely" dead, but still alive on another plane of existence.

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Actually, I believed in one Netherworld or another. It is a modern teaching that there is no Netherworld just like it is a modern there is no ghosts or demons. In some cases they even deny angels and the Devil. All of those are spoken of in Scripture though some translations do their best to conceal that.

Phoneman777 said:

Paul spoke of "two" bodies in the context of wearing them in succession, not simultaneously. Therefore, when the Body returns to the dust and the Spirit (of every Living Soul whether a saint, sinner, or of the animal kingdom) returns to God, the Living Soul passes out of existence in death. In the resurrection, God provides the just second eternal Body in which He will breath the Spirit and that Dead Soul shall break forth into existence as a Living Soul which will be alive forever more.

Please, neither you nor I nor anyone possess immortality, so why do you all keep insisting that the Living Soul is not subject to death? Immortality is possessed by God alone (1 Timothy 6:16 KJV) is only granted to those who seek for it (Romans 2:6-8 KJV). "Immortality" means "not subject to death. The idea of a "soul" being kept alive in torment for all eternity is at complete odds with the Bible.

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I know well that the soul is not automatically immortal,as per the below

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

What kind of body do the souls under the alter in Heaven have?


What did Moses and Elijah return to heaven as?

n2thelight said:

I know well that the soul is not automatically immortal,as per the below

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

What kind of body do the souls under the alter in Heaven have?


What did Moses and Elijah return to heaven as?

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None. It is blood that drains down under the altar, and "the 'life' (Heb. "Nephesh" = "SOUL") is in the blood". "Souls under the altar which cry out" is not a literal reference to conscious entities which escape the body at death and go recline under the altar - it means the martyrdom of God's innocent faithful cries out for God's justice to be carried out on behalf of them.

Moses and Elijah received their immortal bodies. However, they are the exception, not the rule. The rest of us receive that immortal body in the resurrection.

kerwin said:

You are in disagreement with Jesus' words with you claim the soul is destroyed at death.

Humans do not have the ability to destroy both the body and soul only God does and he does it by throwing the person into the lake of fire. Non-existence does not fulfill the requirement.

Abraham was in some way alive when God testify he was Abraham's God even though Abraham's body had been destroyed. Non-existence does fulfill the requirement.

The soul descends to Sheol; which some translations call the Grave or other things such as Hell. Non-existence does not fulfill requirement.

In short your hypothesis tests false according Scriptural witnesses and yet you still choose to hold on to it.

The Word of God trumps your word and you have failed to convince me that your word is God's Word.

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You are putting words in my mouth.

I never said that the Soul is "destroyed" when it passes out of existence at death because in the resurrection that Soul will once again rise to an eternal fate.

However, in the Second Death, to which Jesus referred, wicked Souls are indeed "destroyed" for all eternity, for they pass out of existence in an eternal death from which there will be no resurrection.

Underline: Soul Sleep is truth.

Some have cited these verses to validate the immortal soul doctrine and the belief that, upon death, people go to heaven. However, this description is not literal, but rather is entirely symbolic. The Bible plainly teaches that souls are mortal.

In vision, the apostle John saw before him a book or scroll sealed with seven seals. As Christ opened each seal (Rev. 5:5), John was shown a preview of an event that would happen in the future (“hereafter” [4:1]). Since John was “in the spirit” as the seven seals were opened (vs. 2), the events he witnessed were not actually occurring at that time. They were heavenly previews of things that would happen later on earth.

Upon the opening of the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9), John “saw under [at the base of] the altar the souls of them that were slain.” Christ had shown the meaning of the seven seals when He was on earth. He explained that the fifth seal symbolizes the coming time of Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:9-28), an event that will occur on earth.

In this vision, John was shown the future, this modern age, a time when one martyrdom has already taken place (during the Middle Ages) and a greater one (the Great Tribulation) is yet to happen. The souls who were “slain” (martyred Christian throughout the ages) were told, in Revelation 6:11, to “rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Those who have died will continue to “rest” (remain “asleep [Eph. 5:14; I Cor. 11:30]” in their graves), until others are also martyred as they were.

The “souls” (dead saints) crying “avenge our blood” (vs. 10) is akin to Abel’s blood (his life [note Lev. 17:14]) crying to God from the earth (Gen. 4:10). Since blood does not talk and neither do the dead (Psa. 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10), we understand the meaning to be symbolic, not literal. Therefore, the “souls under the altar” represent those awaiting the future martyrdom of saints.

https://rcg.org/questions/p068.a.html

anapauó: to give rest, give intermission from labor, by impl. refresh
Original Word: ἀναπαύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: anapauó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ap-ow'-o)
Short Definition: I make to rest, give rest to, rest, take my ease
Definition: I make to rest, give rest to; mid. and pass: I rest, take my ease.

nuach: to rest
Original Word: נ֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nuach
Phonetic Spelling: (noo'-akh)
Short Definition: rest

Job 3:11-13 “Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb? 12Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed? 13For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest (nuach)

Job 3:16-17 Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day? 17There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest (nuach).

Isa 57:1-2 The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest (nuach) as they lie in death.

Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest (nuach), and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer (anapauó), until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest (anapauó) from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Phoneman777 said:

You are putting words in my mouth.

I never said that the Soul is "destroyed" when it passes out of existence at death because in the resurrection that Soul will once again rise to an eternal fate.

However, in the Second Death, to which Jesus referred, wicked Souls are indeed "destroyed" for all eternity, for they pass out of existence in an eternal death from which there will be no resurrection.

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Phoneman777 said:

1) Fact: Whatever the translation may be, the Greek of Hebrews 4:12 KJV is written as a Chiasm and says that the Spirit and Soul can be divided as surely as the Marrow and Joints can be. If even a blind man can see that a knee joint can't exist unless all the parts are there together, then why is it so hard for you to see that a Living Soul can't exist unless all its parts - Body and Spirit according to Genesis 2:7 KJV - are there together?

2) The reason I keep saying the same thing is that you keep deflecting instead of facing the facts here presented.

3) Cognitive Dissonance is a condition of the mind where two opposing beliefs are held as truth simultaneously. You hold that the Rich Man and Lazarus is a symbolic parable while simultaneously insisting that it is a literal account of a dead man standing in flames holding a conversation with another dead man while a third dead man watches.

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1) It sound like you are using euphemisms as passes out of existence is another way of saying destroyed.

2) I have done it some but not purposely and less than you accuse me of.

3) That would be descended souls none of which whole humans.

Job 26:5International Standard Version (ISV)

Job Acknowledges God’s Power
5 “The ghosts of the dead[a] writhe under the waters
along with those who live there with them.

Footnotes:

a. Job 26:5 Lit. Rephaim; i.e., souls of the dead

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Rephaim is a descriptive word as are many Hebrew words. As far as I can tell, no expert debates its meaning.

Phoneman777 said:

None. It is blood that drains down under the altar, and "the 'life' (Heb. "Nephesh" = "SOUL") is in the blood". "Souls under the altar which cry out" is not a literal reference to conscious entities which escape the body at death and go recline under the altar - it means the martyrdom of God's innocent faithful cries out for God's justice to be carried out on behalf of them.

Moses and Elijah received their immortal bodies. However, they are the exception, not the rule. The rest of us receive that immortal body in the resurrection.

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The resurrection happens at death.....

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The subject is those who have died

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

How can He bring them if they are not already there?

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them.

Also how did He preach to them after His death on the cross?

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

The purpose for Jesus Christ's coming to earth and living in the flesh, was so that He would die on the cross for your sins. Jesus was just [righteous] in all manner of His flesh life, and in His death "the Just" suffered for the sins of the unjust. Jesus Christ came to earth to die so that you do not need to go to hell, but by your faith in Him and belief in what Jesus has done on the cross, through your repentance to the Father in Jesus name you can be saved. It is your soul that receives eternal life, and when this flesh body dies and is laid in the ground, it is your spirit and soul that is quickened, or goes on living eternally. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, giving you new changed life, where there was only a dead soul before. Jesus died to bring all souls to the Father.

If you ever had any question as to what part of Jesus died on the cross, you have it right here. Jesus Christ's flesh body was died, whereas His spiritual body was quickened or made alive by His Spirit. Jesus was spiritually alive when He descended into the prison to preach to those lost souls.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

http://www.theseason.org/nt.htm

Angelina said:

When Jesus died on the cross and rose again, he became the first-fruits of those who had fallen asleep
1 Corinthians 15:20.

1 Cor:15 also says
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Matthew 27 says ~
0 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

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Succinct refutation of the soul sleep theory, Angela. Here's my $0.02:

Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:51 These verses use what is known as phenomenological language, the language of appearances. Phenomenological language occurs when we describe something as it looks, irrespective of how it is. The classic example of phenomenological language is talk of the sun rising and setting. The sun appears to rise and set , but this motion is actually due to the rotation of the earth rather than to motion of the sun around the earth.

Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.
There are two versions of the "soul sleep" theory.
The Jehovah's Witness claims that the soul ceases to exist at death and then is re-created by God at the resurrection. If their theory were true and there were no soul which survives death, it is difficult to see why the re-created "you" is not just a copy of you. It may have all your memories, but it is hard to see why it is not just a copy. If God had created this copy while you still existed, the fact it is a copy rather than the real you would be obvious.
If it is a copy, that causes problems of justice. Because you ceased to exist, you--the real you--were never punished for your sins or rewarded for your good deeds; you simply ceased to exist. Similarly, the copy of you which was created on the Last Day is then punished or rewarded for things it never did.
Once one has distinguished between the Jehovah's Witnesses' view and the view that claims that our souls simply sleep between death and resurrection, one can go on to refute these ideas by using the Bible. The following verses apply to both versions of the doctrine.
In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"
Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.
In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: "Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ--hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.
How do we refute the "soul sleep" argument?

Are Seventh-day Adventists correct about what happens to the soul after death?

kepha31 said:

Succinct refutation of the soul sleep theory, Angela. Here's my $0.02:

Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:51 These verses use what is known as phenomenological language, the language of appearances. Phenomenological language occurs when we describe something as it looks, irrespective of how it is. The classic example of phenomenological language is talk of the sun rising and setting. The sun appears to rise and set , but this motion is actually due to the rotation of the earth rather than to motion of the sun around the earth.

Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.
There are two versions of the "soul sleep" theory.
The Jehovah's Witness claims that the soul ceases to exist at death and then is re-created by God at the resurrection. If their theory were true and there were no soul which survives death, it is difficult to see why the re-created "you" is not just a copy of you. It may have all your memories, but it is hard to see why it is not just a copy. If God had created this copy while you still existed, the fact it is a copy rather than the real you would be obvious.
If it is a copy, that causes problems of justice. Because you ceased to exist, you--the real you--were never punished for your sins or rewarded for your good deeds; you simply ceased to exist. Similarly, the copy of you which was created on the Last Day is then punished or rewarded for things it never did.
Once one has distinguished between the Jehovah's Witnesses' view and the view that claims that our souls simply sleep between death and resurrection, one can go on to refute these ideas by using the Bible. The following verses apply to both versions of the doctrine.
In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"
Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.
In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: "Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ--hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.
How do we refute the "soul sleep" argument?
Are Seventh-day Adventists correct about what happens to the soul after death?

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Revelations is poor evidence as it often uses symbolical language.

There are no soul literally under the altar and may not be a literal altar.

It possibly means that those individuals sacrificed themselves for Christ and so their ashes (souls) are under the altar of heaven. (Exodus 27:1-5) Another way to say the same thing is the blood of righteous martyrs patiently calls out, yearning for the time of judgement.

It is making no point whether or not the souls sleep just like the paraphrase is not claiming blood lives after a person dies.

kerwin said:

1) It sound like you are using euphemisms as passes out of existence is another way of saying destroyed.

2) I have done it some but not purposely and less than you accuse me of.

3) That would be descended souls none of which whole humans.




Rephaim is a descriptive word as are many Hebrew words. As far as I can tell, no expert debates its meaning.

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It may seem to the natural man that "pass out of existence" sounds like "destroyed", but not from the perspective of a God capable of speaking things into existence from nothingness. In the same way, to us Lazarus was dead as deadwood, but to Jesus, he was just "sleeping", because Jesus knew He was going to wake him up. Only God can destroy the Living Soul by choosing to not resurrect it after it passes out of existence in the Second Death.

n2thelight said:

The resurrection happens at death....

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The resurrection happens when Jesus comes back when the Lord's Trumpet is sounded:

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God."

"In a moment, in a twinkling of the eye, at the last trump; For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed."

Zechariah says "and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet..."

Why is it called "the last trumpet"? Because the 7 trumpets of Revelation will have all sounded before Jesus comes back with His "Last Trump".