Soul sleep

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heretoeternity

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Oh well seems this is where Rome's "purgatory" comes in handy..give the priest a few bucks and he will pray you out of purgatory...so if you got the money, they will make sure you get to "Heaven"...
 

Mungo

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heretoeternity said:
Oh well seems this is where Rome's "purgatory" comes in handy..give the priest a few bucks and he will pray you out of purgatory...so if you got the money, they will make sure you get to "Heaven"...
Many assertions - zero evidence!

But then it is heretoeternity posting.

As my signature says: Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts
 

heretoeternity

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Are you now denying purgatory is a roman catholic doctrine? If so then you better check with your pope and hierarchy of the pagan based Roman religious organization...Purgatory is not Biblical, but then it one of many things the Roman religious organization does not follow the Holy word of God about...

Seen it first hand, for a couple of hundred dollars, the priest will "pray" someone out of purgatory, to get them to heaven...it is a scam but they do it all the time..
 

Mungo

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heretoeternity said:
Are you now denying purgatory is a roman catholic doctrine? If so then you better check with your pope and hierarchy of the pagan based Roman religious organization...Purgatory is not Biblical, but then it one of many things the Roman religious organization does not follow the Holy word of God about...

Seen it first hand, for a couple of hundred dollars, the priest will "pray" someone out of purgatory, to get them to heaven...it is a scam but they do it all the time..
Many assertions - zero evidence!

But then it is heretoeternity posting.

As my signature says: Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts
 

StanJ

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Catholic doctrine - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#I

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is at times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapter 21, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.:

Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment." "Surely," Wilpert adds, "such intercession would have no place were there question not of the particular, but of the final judgment.

Some stress too has been laid upon the objection that the ancient Christians had no clear conception of purgatory, and that they thought that the souls departed remained in uncertainty of salvation to the last day; and consequently they prayed that those who had gone before might in the final judgment escape even the everlasting torments of hell. The earliest Christian traditions are clear as to the particular judgment, and clearer still concerning a sharp distinction between purgatory and hell. The passages alledged as referring to relief from hell cannot offset the evidence given below (Bellarmine, "De Purgatorio," lib. II, cap. v). Concerning the famous case of Trajan, which vexed the Doctors of the Middle Ages, see Bellarmine, loc. cit., cap. Viii.
 

Heb 13:8

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kepha31 said:
Soul sleep came from Charles Taze Russell's imagination in the early 1900's. Original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew can be mangled beyond recognition. see 2 Peter 1:20
If I am wrong, you should have no problem identifying who, when and where it was taught it before then. You can't. It's a novel post-enlightenment invention.
Soul sleep didn't come from any man. It comes from the Greek text. How will kepha exist as wind in the third heaven? Our spirit is wind.
 

epostle1

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Heb 13:8 said:
Soul sleep didn't come from any man. It comes from the Greek text. How will kepha exist as wind in the third heaven? Our spirit is wind.
No, soul sleep is eisegesis of the Greek text. That means Charles Taze Russell interpreted the Greek text (if he could read it at all) to force it to suit his opinions. It has no precedent and you haven't offered any, because none exists. How much Greek can a person have adequate knowledge of if they never finished high school?
​Greek is not a divine language, no human language is. What about Hebrew and Aramaic?

Our spirit is wind? That's flatulence and it's not in the Bible. The Bible mentions the soul approximately 200 times, and it can be seen to have very different meanings according to the context of each passage. The soul is immortal according to Scripture.

Perhaps the strongest contradiction of the WTS doctrine is seen in Christ’s descent to Hades. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison." If the dead were aware of nothing, then his preaching would have been futile. I'm sure your "Greek text" is louder than Peter's Greek text. You guys don't care much for Peter anyway.

In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11).

That's another verse you don't like so you ignore it. Try the Hebrew text. Aren't most high school drop outs like your founder fluent in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew??? Not likely.

I get sarcastic when provoked, your parroted one liner meaningless replies are annoying. If you are stumped and have no answer, it's wise to let it go and say nothing.
 

Heb 13:8

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kepha31 said:
No, soul sleep is eisegesis of the Greek text. That means Charles Taze Russell interpreted the Greek text (if he could read it at all) to force it to suit his opinions. It has no precedent and you haven't offered any, because none exists. How much Greek can a person have adequate knowledge of if they never finished high school?
​Greek is not a divine language, no human language is. What about Hebrew and Aramaic?
No, soul sleep means to rest in your graves.

anapauó: to give rest, give intermission from labor, by impl. refresh
Original Word: ἀναπαύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: anapauó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ap-ow'-o)
Short Definition: I make to rest, give rest to, rest, take my ease
Definition: I make to rest, give rest to; mid. and pass: I rest, take my ease.

nuach: to rest
Original Word: נ֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nuach
Phonetic Spelling: (noo'-akh)
Short Definition: rest

Job 3:11-13 NIV “Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb? 12Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed? 13For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest (nuach)

Job 3:16-17 NIV Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day? 17There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest (nuach).

Isa 57:1-2 NIV 1The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest (nuach) as they lie in death.

Dan 12:13 NIV “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest (nuach), and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Rev 6:11 NIV Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer (anapauó), until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Rev 14:13 NIV Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest (anapauó) from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

kepha31 said:
Our spirit is wind? That's flatulence and it's not in the Bible. The Bible mentions the soul approximately 200 times, and it can be seen to have very different meanings according to the context of each passage. The soul is immortal according to Scripture.
The soul is only immortal because God breathed life into us. The same way He will breathe life back into us at first resurrection. The spirit cannot live without the body. That's why God breathed into our bodies. Wind and spirit have the same definition....

John 3:8 NIV The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

We were once asleep in our graves, and we will awaken at first resurrection..

1 Cor 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised (egeiró) imperishable, and we will be changed.

egeiró: to waken, to raise up
Original Word: ἐγείρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: egeiró
Phonetic Spelling: (eg-i'-ro)
Short Definition: I wake, arouse, raise up
Definition: (a) I wake, arouse, ( B) I raise up.
 

Heb 13:8

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kepha31 said:
Perhaps the strongest contradiction of the WTS doctrine is seen in Christ’s descent to Hades. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison." If the dead were aware of nothing, then his preaching would have been futile. I'm sure your "Greek text" is louder than Peter's Greek text. You guys don't care much for Peter anyway.
1 Pet 3:19-20 - The Greek text requires that the proclamation was made after the resurrection. (1 Peter 3:18 NIV For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,) (1 Peter 3:21 NIV and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,)

However, the passage isn't speaking of preaching the Gospel. It's talking about Jesus making a proclamation to the disobedient spirits. The proclamation is probably what Peter states a few verses later. (1 Peter 3:22 NIV who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.) Jesus said just before sending out the apostles that all authority had been given to Him Matt 28:16-20 NIV. This is probably what He proclaimed to the disobedient Spirits.

The Greek words that are translated death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are Greek participles. The word translated preached is an indicative verb. Death (thanatoo) is a perfect tense participle and alive (zoopoieo) is an aorist tense participle, both are past tense. Greek participles are subject to the tense of the main verb. That means the time element of the participles is subject to the main verb preached (kerusso). In other words, the past tense participles, death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are past tense from the point of the main verb preached (kerusso), not to the time of the writer.

1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV - For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

2 Peter 2:4-9 NIV - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Gen 6:1-4 NIV When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
 

Heb 13:8

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kepha31 said:
In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11).
Isa 14:9 - I think it's just figurative language. In the same chapter there is the earth rejoicing, Trees rejoicing and singing, and hell is provoked. Obviously this is figurative language. Also when the passage speaks of the kings it says they rise from their thrones. Do we really believe that the kings of the earth have thrones in Hades? Even those who believe the wicked are tortured say the wicked as suffering. They don't say they're enthroned in Hades.
 

n2thelight

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Phoneman777 said:
The resurrection happens when Jesus comes back when the Lord's Trumpet is sounded:

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God."

"In a moment, in a twinkling of the eye, at the last trump; For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed."

Zechariah says "and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet..."

Why is it called "the last trumpet"? Because the 7 trumpets of Revelation will have all sounded before Jesus comes back with His "Last Trump".

Christ bring those who have died back with Him,those alive at that time will be changed to be like those who come with Him...


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."


If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise.

The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].


It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord."Ecclesiastes 12:7.

To say that we are still in the ground is to say that Christ is to,and we should all know where Christ is!!!!
 

Phoneman777

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kepha31 said:
Soul sleep came from Charles Taze Russell's imagination in the early 1900's. Original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew can be mangled beyond recognition. see 2 Peter 1:20
If I am wrong, you should have no problem identifying who, when and where it was taught it before then. You can't. It's a novel post-enlightenment invention.
No, Kepha, soul sleep is Biblical. Your doctrine comes from the mouth of the serpent in the garden when he said "Ye shall not surely die" and that is EXACTLY what Catholicism and most of apostate Protestantism teaches: that while you're laying their in the casket in the front of the church dead, you're not SURELY dead - you're either walking around the streets of gold or burning in hell, or in your case, purgatory, one of the most imaginable doctrines from what Luther called "the Roman dunghill of decretals".
 

Phoneman777

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kepha31 said:
The soul is immortal according to Scripture.



I get sarcastic when provoked, your parroted one liner meaningless replies are annoying. If you are stumped and have no answer, it's wise to let it go and say nothing.
You Catholics are so Biblically illiterate that you should be required to pass an elementary entrance exam before entering a Bible debate. What part of "WHO (GOD) ONLY HATH IMMORTALITY" (1 Timothy 6:16 KJV) do you not understand? You criticize others for failing to grasp your so called Greek "exegesis" when you fail to grasp plain English. God ALONE has immortality, which means you do not.

Likewise, do you also understand that the Apostle Paul - who incidentally had to pimp slap your beloved Apostle Peter for his failed understanding of Paul's truth which he later admitted often presented even to himself a difficult challenge - says plainly that those who will be saved are to presently "seek for immortality" (Romans 2:6-8 KJV)? Do you understand that if we already are in possession of a thing, it is not necessary to "seek" for it?

No, Kepha, the soul is not immortal as you claim and you will find not one instance in Scripture where it is so. The Bible says the opposite, as shown above.
 

Phoneman777

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n2thelight said:
Christ bring those who have died back with Him,those alive at that time will be changed to be like those who come with Him...


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
The issue here is "bring with Him", and many many believe this to mean as you do - "bring with Jesus from heaven at his Second Coming" which leads to an assumption that the dead are already in heaven now. Let's examine "bring with Him":

This text forms a Hebrew Chiasm - Hebrew poetry - and failure to recognize such texts is the primary reason for so much Biblical confusion, especially with regard to end time prophetic interpretation. The Hebrews wrote poetically in which ideas, not words, are rhymed. Your interpretation of this text destroys the chaism and my interpretation leaves it intact - here's why:

"Died and rose again" is rhymed with "sleep and bring with Him". The chiasm demands that "died" and "sleep" refer to the same idea and that "rose" and "bring with Him" also refer to the same idea. It is patently obvious that "died" and "sleep" refer to the concept of "death". Therefore, if the Hebrew chaism is to remain intact, then "rose" and "bring" must also refer to the same idea as well, and since "rose" plainly refers to "resurrection", then we should expect that "bring with Him" must refer to the "resurrection", AND NOT A "CELESTIAL ROAD TRIP", as well, understand?

In other words, just as Jesus died and God brought Him from the tomb, so too will those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring forth from the tomb "with" or "in like manner" that He brought Jesus forth from the tomb.

Can you see that rigidly interpreting "bring with Him" not only lacks objectivity, but actually imposes and interpretation upon Scripture that distorts it?
 

OzSpen

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Phoneman777 said:
No, Kepha, soul sleep is Biblical. Your doctrine comes from the mouth of the serpent in the garden when he said "Ye shall not surely die" and that is EXACTLY what Catholicism and most of apostate Protestantism teaches: that while you're laying their in the casket in the front of the church dead, you're not SURELY dead - you're either walking around the streets of gold or burning in hell, or in your case, purgatory, one of the most imaginable doctrines from what Luther called "the Roman dunghill of decretals".
Phoneman,

There are many reasons to demonstrate that soul sleep is a non-biblical doctrine supported by certain denominations such as the SDAs, JWs, Christadelphians, etc. Here is one aspect of the evidence against soul sleep:

The Bible sometimes describes the state of death as “sleep” or “falling asleep” in verses such as Matt. 9:24; 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess 4:13; 5:10. Let’s take 3 samples from these verses:

1. Matt. 9:24. The ruler’s daughter had died (see 9:18) and before Jesus raised her from the dead, Jesus said, “‘Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him.”
2. Acts 13:36. “For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers . . .”
3. First Corinthians 15:20. “But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”

This sounds like the soul sleep position is signed, sealed and delivered. If believers go to sleep at death, surely there is no need for further discussion! It would be a danger to jump to such a conclusion this early in an examination of the biblical evidence.

There are many words in many languages (including English) that have a number of unrelated meanings. We see this with the language of ‘sleep’. Webster’s dictionary defines it three ways, one of which is: ‘a natural, regularly recurring condition of rest for the body and mind, during which there is little or no conscious thoughts, sensation, or movement’ (Webster 1978:1706). However there are many different meanings to ‘sleep’ when statements such as these are made:

(1) My foot went to sleep (meaning that sensation was lost in my foot);
(2) I’ll sleep on it, which means that I will think about the issue and try to come up with an answer later;
(3) My children’s friends are coming for a sleepover, i.e. the children’s friends will come to sleep at our place for the night and there is likely to be a long night of talking, playing games, and favourite party food;
(4) That couple is sleeping together, meaning they are having sex;
(5) There are sleeper cells in this country, which is an indication that there are terrorists awaiting their opportunities to strike;
(6) I had to put my dog to sleep, meaning that I took the dog to the vet and he euthanised (killed) him/her (many of these ideas were suggested by Dr John Roller n d, ‘Soul sleep’, but the article is no longer online).

New Testament scholar, Dr. N. T. Wright, wrote that “when ancient Jews, pagans and Christians used the word ‘sleep’ to denote death, they were using a metaphor to refer to a concrete state of affairs.We sometimes use the same language the other way round: a heavy sleeper is ‘dead to the world'” (Wright 2003, p. xix).

When my father died and I saw him in his coffin, he looked as though he was asleep. This is how we are to understand the language of sleep associated with death in the Bible. “Sleep” of the body is a metaphor that refers to death.

Remember the story of Jesus and Lazarus in John 11:5-44? Of Lazarus, it was said that he “has fallen asleep” and Jesus was going “to awaken him” (v. 11). Jesus was very clear what he had meant by “sleep.” “Now Jesus had spoken of his death” (v. 13). “Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus has died'” (v. 14). Jesus explains further: “Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (v. 26). [taken from my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation]

Oz

Works consulted
Wright, N. T. 2003, The Resurrection of the Son of God, series in Christian origins and the Question of God, vol. 3, Fortress Press, Minneapolis.
 

Heb 13:8

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Phoneman777 said:
The issue here is "bring with Him", and many many believe this to mean as you do - "bring with Jesus from heaven at his Second Coming" which leads to an assumption that the dead are already in heaven now. Let's examine "bring with Him":
So why obtain by robbery when He doesn't need to. Harpazo means obtain by robbery. Why obtain by robbery while in our resurrected bodies.
 

epostle1

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Heb 13:8 said:
1 Pet 3:19-20 - The Greek text requires that the proclamation was made after the resurrection. (1 Peter 3:18 NIV For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,) (1 Peter 3:21 NIV and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,)
However, the passage isn't speaking of preaching the Gospel. It's talking about Jesus making a proclamation to the disobedient spirits. The proclamation is probably what Peter states a few verses later. (1 Peter 3:22 NIV who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.) Jesus said just before sending out the apostles that all authority had been given to Him Matt 28:16-20 NIV. This is probably what He proclaimed to the disobedient Spirits.
Jesus descended where?

The Greek words that are translated death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are Greek participles. The word translated preached is an indicative verb. Death (thanatoo) is a perfect tense participle and alive (zoopoieo) is an aorist tense participle, both are past tense. Greek participles are subject to the tense of the main verb. That means the time element of the participles is subject to the main verb preached (kerusso). In other words, the past tense participles, death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are past tense from the point of the main verb preached (kerusso), not to the time of the writer.
Kecharitomene is a passive participle, it's found in Luke 1:28. I thought I would freshen up the discussion with a totally irrelevant red herring.

1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV - For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. Peter 2:4-9 NIV - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Don't forget 2 Peter 1:20



Gen 6:1-4 NIV When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
"mortal" in this context does not mean the soul is mortal, it means we have so many days here on earth.


Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
I thought you guys didn't believe in hell?
 

OzSpen

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Heb 13:8 said:
The Greek words that are translated death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are Greek participles. The word translated preached is an indicative verb. Death (thanatoo) is a perfect tense participle and alive (zoopoieo) is an aorist tense participle, both are past tense. Greek participles are subject to the tense of the main verb. That means the time element of the participles is subject to the main verb preached (kerusso). In other words, the past tense participles, death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are past tense from the point of the main verb preached (kerusso), not to the time of the writer.
You seem to be missing a fundamental understanding of the Greek tenses. In English the tenses (present, past and future) depend on the TIME of the action. That is not so in Greek where tense generally refers to the KIND of action (except in the indicative mood) and not the TIME of action.

In their Greek grammar, Dana & Mantey state: 'The important element of tense in Greek is kind of action. This is its fundamental significance. "The chief function of a Greek tense is thus not to denote time, but progress"' (Dana & Mantey 1955:178, emphasis in original).

For example, the aorist tense is not speaking about action in the past but point action. It happened, but without the emphasis on TIME of action.

Oz

Works consulted
Dana, H E & Mantey, J R 1927/1955, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. Toronto, Canada: The Macmillan Company.
 

Heb 13:8

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kepha31 said:
Jesus descended where?

I thought you guys didn't believe in hell?
Jesus proclaimed his sovereignty to the fallen angels in Tartarus.

"You guys", lol. Rom 10:9-10.
 

Phoneman777

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OzSpen said:
Phoneman,

There are many reasons to demonstrate that soul sleep is a non-biblical doctrine supported by certain denominations such as the SDAs, JWs, Christadelphians, etc. Here is one aspect of the evidence against soul sleep:

The Bible sometimes describes the state of death as “sleep” or “falling asleep” in verses such as Matt. 9:24; 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess 4:13; 5:10. Let’s take 3 samples from these verses:

1. Matt. 9:24. The ruler’s daughter had died (see 9:18) and before Jesus raised her from the dead, Jesus said, “‘Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him.”
2. Acts 13:36. “For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers . . .”
3. First Corinthians 15:20. “But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”

This sounds like the soul sleep position is signed, sealed and delivered. If believers go to sleep at death, surely there is no need for further discussion! It would be a danger to jump to such a conclusion this early in an examination of the biblical evidence.

There are many words in many languages (including English) that have a number of unrelated meanings. We see this with the language of ‘sleep’. Webster’s dictionary defines it three ways, one of which is: ‘a natural, regularly recurring condition of rest for the body and mind, during which there is little or no conscious thoughts, sensation, or movement’ (Webster 1978:1706). However there are many different meanings to ‘sleep’ when statements such as these are made:

(1) My foot went to sleep (meaning that sensation was lost in my foot);
(2) I’ll sleep on it, which means that I will think about the issue and try to come up with an answer later;
(3) My children’s friends are coming for a sleepover, i.e. the children’s friends will come to sleep at our place for the night and there is likely to be a long night of talking, playing games, and favourite party food;
(4) That couple is sleeping together, meaning they are having sex;
(5) There are sleeper cells in this country, which is an indication that there are terrorists awaiting their opportunities to strike;
(6) I had to put my dog to sleep, meaning that I took the dog to the vet and he euthanised (killed) him/her (many of these ideas were suggested by Dr John Roller n d, ‘Soul sleep’, but the article is no longer online).

New Testament scholar, Dr. N. T. Wright, wrote that “when ancient Jews, pagans and Christians used the word ‘sleep’ to denote death, they were using a metaphor to refer to a concrete state of affairs.We sometimes use the same language the other way round: a heavy sleeper is ‘dead to the world'” (Wright 2003, p. xix).

When my father died and I saw him in his coffin, he looked as though he was asleep. This is how we are to understand the language of sleep associated with death in the Bible. “Sleep” of the body is a metaphor that refers to death.

Remember the story of Jesus and Lazarus in John 11:5-44? Of Lazarus, it was said that he “has fallen asleep” and Jesus was going “to awaken him” (v. 11). Jesus was very clear what he had meant by “sleep.” “Now Jesus had spoken of his death” (v. 13). “Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus has died'” (v. 14). Jesus explains further: “Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (v. 26). [taken from my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation]

Oz

Works consulted
Wright, N. T. 2003, The Resurrection of the Son of God, series in Christian origins and the Question of God, vol. 3, Fortress Press, Minneapolis.
Friend, I have to say that there are absolutely no Biblical reasons to support the idea of consciousness in death whatsoever. If you believe you have some, please present them one at a time and we can discuss them. I think we all agree that "sleep is a Biblical metaphor of death" based on what Jesus and David both said. But, to argue that this metaphor leaves room for the idea of consciousness in death is fully unwarranted in the light of what the rest of the Bible says unequivocally and irrefutably about death. In light of the following texts and many others that could be presented, we see that "sleep" is actually an excellent metaphor for death, but certainly not consciousness in death:

The dead know absolutely nothing
The dead possess no memory
The dead do not have the ability to experience emotion
The dead do not possess knowledge
The dead do not possess wisdom
The dead do not possess the ability to lay plans
The dead do not have anything to do with anything that takes place here under the heavens which are now.
The dead do not praise God
The dead do not perceive anything

As you can see, the above list speaks of death as having nothing to do with consciousness at all, which is exactly what a deep, sound, full, dreamless night's sleep brings - in both circumstances identical conditions prevail - people who experience that deep, sound, full, dreamless night's sleep do not engage in anything on the above list - it is only when they awake that they do so, friend, and only in the resurrection will they commence to do so as well, but certainly not while they are yet dead now.