Soul sleep

[n2thelight]

All I can say is,why don't have a soul,we are a soul,we have a body....The flesh is just for this age...We were created like the angels,what kind of body do they have?


What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman,or do you think He was just some glob of energy?

 

[StanJ]

You boast about what you do not understand. I pity you for your lack of knowledge but I know Jesus spoke true when he said "You will recognize them by their fruits". Why do you doubt?

No boasts at all, just plain fact, and you're right Jesus did say you will know them by their fruits and so far your branches are empty.

 

[StanJ]

All I can say is,why don't have a soul,we are a soul,we have a body....The flesh is just for this age...We were created like the angels,what kind of body do they have?
What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman,or do you think He was just some glob of energy?

We are tripartite just as God is tripartite. We have a body Soul and Spirit just as God is the father Son and Holy Ghost
Christ did not exist before being born of woman. John 1:14 shows that the Word became flesh, which means God was incarnated in man at Jesus' birth. John 1:1 shows that the Word was and is God.

 

[kerwin]

No boasts at all, just plain fact, and you're right Jesus did say you will know them by their fruits and so far your branches are empty.

Thank you!

 

[OzSpen]

All I can say is,why don't have a soul,we are a soul,we have a body....The flesh is just for this age...We were created like the angels,what kind of body do they have?

What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman,or do you think He was just some glob of energy?

n2,

There is a fair amount of your creative speculation here. I note that you included no Scripture to demonstrate your points.

There was only one time when Jesus had a body and that was when he was born to the virgin Mary and became flesh until his ascension. How do we know that? The Bible tells us so: 'And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth' (John 1:14 ESV). The only time Jesus, the Son, had a body of flesh was during his Incarnation.

As for the rest of humanity, a human being has an inner, immaterial dimension and an outer, material dimension. The inner dimension is often called “soul” or “spirit” and the outer dimension is usually called body.

Often in the Bible, the term, “soul,” is used to refer to more than the spiritual dimension of a human being and sometimes even includes the body (e.g. Gen. 2:7; Psalm 16:10).

However, the Bible presents examples of the soul being distinguished from the body as in Gen. 35:18 (ESV): “And as her [Rachel’s] soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin” .

In I Thess. 5:23 the soul is noted as different from the body: “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

Rev. 6:9 (ESV) indicates that souls are totally separated from the bodies for the saints: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne”.

So, the “soul” means “life” as the principle of life in a human being. It is what animates the body of a human being. In fact, the word “soul” can sometimes refer to a dead body as in Lev. 19:28; 21:1; 23:4 in a way similar to the contemporary expression, “that poor soul.” However, the primary meaning of “soul” is probably best stated as meaning “person” which is usually in a body but is sometimes in a disembodied state.

Therefore, with this kind of understanding, it makes sense to state: “Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die” (Ezek. 18:4 ESV). It fits in with the biblical data, so long as we understand that this fits with “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God” (Rev. 6:9). “Souls” are not extinguished at physical death (from my article, What is the nature of death according to the Bible?)

Oz

 

[kerwin]

All I can say is,why don't have a soul,we are a soul,we have a body....The flesh is just for this age...We were created like the angels,what kind of body do they have?


What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman,or do you think He was just some glob of energy?

That angels are not ghosts as they can be touched as shown when one of them touched Lot. They also ate with Lot which is another sign they are not immaterial creatures. We do not see them because they are hidden from us by God, just as it is written in the story of Balaam and his As.

In those cases that angels are called spirit it is a case of calling the whole by the part of the whole the author is emphasizing or a misunderstanding of Scripture. After all, Scripture is not broken.

We will be immortal like the angels but we will not be angel-kind.

 

[OzSpen]

We are tripartite just as God is tripartite. We have a body Soul and Spirit just as God is the father Son and Holy Ghost
Christ did not exist before being born of woman. John 1:14 shows that the Word became flesh, which means God was incarnated in man at Jesus' birth. John 1:1 shows that the Word was and is God.

Stan,

That's one view in the evangelical community. The other view is that human beings are bipartite and that soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scripture. I espouse the latter view and this biblical material seems to point in that direction:

In both Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma), spirit normally refers to the immaterial dimension of human beings. Often “spirit” and “soul” are interchangeable, as in a verses such as Luke 1:46-47 (ESV), “And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior . . .”

James 2:26 (ESV) speaks of the body without the “soul” as dead, while Jesus said at his death, “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30 ESV).

So, “spirit” is the immaterial dimension of human beings, as Jesus emphasised with his disciples: “And he said to them, ‘Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have’” (Luke 24:38-39 ESV).

According to John 4:24 (ESV), the invisible God “is spirit” and whose who worship him must worship “in spirit and in truth”.

I don't think we should be dogmatic about either view as there are evangelicals on both sides of the fence, tripartite and bipartite.

Oz

 

[kerwin]

Stan,

That's one view in the evangelical community. The other view is that human beings are bipartite and that soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scripture. I espouse the latter view and this biblical material seems to point in that direction:

In both Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma), spirit normally refers to the immaterial dimension of human beings. Often “spirit” and “soul” are interchangeable, as in a verses such as Luke 1:46-47 (ESV), “And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior . . .”

James 2:26 (ESV) speaks of the body without the “soul” as dead, while Jesus said at his death, “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30 ESV).

So, “spirit” is the immaterial dimension of human beings, as Jesus emphasised with his disciples: “And he said to them, ‘Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have’” (Luke 24:38-39 ESV).

According to John 4:24 (ESV), the invisible God “is spirit” and whose who worship him must worship “in spirit and in truth”.

I don't think we should be dogmatic about either view as there are evangelicals on both sides of the fence, tripartite and bipartite.

Oz

I also agree with the bipartite view as the tripartite does not account for the breath of life.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

That's one view in the evangelical community. The other view is that human beings are bipartite and that soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scripture. I espouse the latter view and this biblical material seems to point in that direction:

In both Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma), spirit normally refers to the immaterial dimension of human beings. Often “spirit” and “soul” are interchangeable, as in a verses such as Luke 1:46-47 (ESV), “And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior . . .”

James 2:26 (ESV) speaks of the body without the “soul” as dead, while Jesus said at his death, “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30 ESV).

So, “spirit” is the immaterial dimension of human beings, as Jesus emphasised with his disciples: “And he said to them, ‘Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have’” (Luke 24:38-39 ESV).

According to John 4:24 (ESV), the invisible God “is spirit” and whose who worship him must worship “in spirit and in truth”.

I don't think we should be dogmatic about either view as there are evangelicals on both sides of the fence, tripartite and bipartite.

Oz

Sorry but I think Hebrews 4:12 makes it very clear that we are comprised of Flesh, Spirit, and Soul.
If we are made in the image of God then we are tripartite because God is tripartite/triune. Obviously when the Bible says image of God it does not mean physical image so the only real alternative is the nature of God.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hebrews 4:12 is wording that seems to be able to be translated in multiple ways.




This one is worded different than to the KJV you use which may be the AV.




I hypothesize the interpretation-translation was chosen based on what they believed was more in tune with their particular doctrine or the doctrine of the majority in those case that involved a multi-doctrine group of translators.

Your argument is therefore based on an unsound premise.

How about you address the point I made? I'll make it again:

1) YOUR Bible says in Genesis 2:7 KJV that a Soul is created the moment the Spirit is combined with the Body, and to deny this is to deny self-evident truth.

2) Hebrews 4:12 KJVsays the Spirit can be separated from the Soul just as surely as marrow-filled bone can be separated from a joint. This verse is a Hebrew Chiasm, meaning both parts of the verse express an identical point - that the Word of God is like a sword that cuts things apart.

Now, no one would argue that if you took a knee joint and separated its parts and mailed the tibia to Spain and the fibula Italy...that the knee joint would yet exist. So, why argue that when the Spirit is separated from the Soul, that the Soul yet remains in existence?

 

[kerwin]

How about you address the point I made? I'll make it again:

1) YOUR Bible says in Genesis 2:7 KJV that a Soul is created the moment the Spirit is combined with the Body, and to deny this is to deny self-evident truth.

2) Hebrews 4:12 KJVsays the Spirit can be separated from the Soul just as surely as marrow-filled bone can be separated from a joint. This verse is a Hebrew Chiasm, meaning both parts of the verse express an identical point - that the Word of God is like a sword that cuts things apart.

Now, no one would argue that if you took a knee joint and separated its parts and mailed the tibia to Spain and the fibula Italy...that the knee joint would yet exist. So, why argue that when the Spirit is separated from the Soul, that the Soul yet remains in existence?

1)

I have not denied it but instead stated it is like when a male and female come together to make a child.

You are the one that denies Jesus' teaching that involves both the rich man and Lazarus going to the Jewish Netherworld.

2)

Already pointed out the translation-interpretation you are using is controversial among translators so you require more reliable evidence. We could discuss whether your interpretation of those particular words is both solid and valid. If that is what you desire then let me know.

In short you are saying nothing new.

 

[StanJ]

That's what exegesis is all about... Taking the original language and seeing what it says not referring to multiple English versions and then trying to equivocate about each one. The Bible shows that the spirit and soul are separable from each other and from the body, that makes us tripartite in being. Ultimately that is what we will be when we receive eternal life, a fully recombined, tripartite, immortal human being.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry but I think Hebrews 4:12 makes it very clear that we are comprised of Flesh, Spirit, and Soul.
If we are made in the image of God then we are tripartite because God is tripartite/triune. Obviously when the Bible says image of God it does not mean physical image so the only real alternative is the nature of God.

Stan,

You regularly in this thread and elsewhere exalt the value of exegesis and I would agree with you for the need to gain the meaning ek (out of) the text - hence exegesis and not eisegesis (eis = into), which means reading into the text what a person wants it to mean.

What have you done with Heb 4:12 ESV)? This verse states: 'For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart'.

What do we get from your explanation here? You did not provide us with careful exegesis of Heb 4:12 (ESV) but we got your opinion. Your view that God is tripartite/triune in nature (I await your exposition on that as well) and we are made in his image - making us tripartite - does not come from that text of Heb 4:12 (ESV). Triune does not mean tripartite.

Come on, Stan! It's time for you to deal with the exegesis of this text instead of reading into it what you want it to mean. I'm quite ashamed that you would do this to a text when you sprout about exegesis.

Please do the tough job of exegesis. However, you don't know the original Greek (that's what you've told us) so you have a challenge ahead of you. But I will wait for your careful exegesis.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

That's what exegesis is all about... Taking the original language and seeing what it says not referring to multiple English versions and then trying to equivocate about each one. The Bible shows that the spirit and soul are separable from each other and from the body, that makes us tripartite in being. Ultimately that is what we will be when we receive eternal life, a fully recombined, tripartite, immortal human being.

Stan,

Since you don't know the original languages (which you have told us), how are you going to know how to do exegesis without the use of reference books (e.g. commentaries) and multiple English versions? In fact, for people who don't know the original languages - which is your situation - to compare committee translations of Bibles is an excellent starting point.

This could include a comparison of the NKJV, KJV, NASB, ESV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, NLT, NAB, NJB, Douay-Rheims, LEB, etc. We are blessed to have so many fine English translations at a time when approx 2,000 other languages in the world don't even have one book of the Bible translated into their native languages (according to Wycliffe Bible Translators).

Oz

 

[n2thelight]

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."


Where is the sleep part?

 

[OzSpen]

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."


Where is the sleep part?

n2,

If you read the entire Bible, instead of only 2 verses from a book that is written for those 'under the sun' (Eccl. 1:9 ESV), you'll see the soul sleep issue. See my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation.

The teacher in the Book of Ecclesiastes uses the phrase 'under the sun' over 20 times. It is addressed to human beings who live 'under the sun'. That's all of us, including the secularists.

Oz

 

[kerwin]

That's what exegesis is all about... Taking the original language and seeing what it says not referring to multiple English versions and then trying to equivocate about each one. The Bible shows that the spirit and soul are separable from each other and from the body, that makes us tripartite in being. Ultimately that is what we will be when we receive eternal life, a fully recombined, tripartite, immortal human being.

I agree that exegesis is a method to resolve such issues when they arise but assuming the translators knew there job they all would have used exegesis though the form may have changed over time and the available supporting information certainly has. The different translations just reflect different research arriving at different conclusions.

If all other things were equal then the newer the translation the better it would be because of the improvement in information but I do think that tests true.

 

[kerwin]

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."


Where is the sleep part?

I am not completely familiar with such symbolism but I have heard that the silver cord is what holds the soul to the body. I also understand "the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it" is a reference to the breath and not to the soul which was the result of the union of breath with body since it is the reverse of what happened when humanity was first made. In short the verses do not say what happens to the soul.

Look at the notes which reveal the intent of the Hebrew behind the English words; which also contain that same intent.

Proverbs 2:18American Standard Version (ASV)
18 For [a]her house inclineth unto death,
And her paths unto the dead;
Footnotes:
Proverbs 2:18 Or, she sinketh down unto death, which is her house
Proverbs 2:18 Or, the shades. Hebrew Rephaim.

 

[n2thelight]

n2,

If you read the entire Bible, instead of only 2 verses from a book that is written for those 'under the sun' (Eccl. 1:9 ESV), you'll see the soul sleep issue. See my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation.

The teacher in the Book of Ecclesiastes uses the phrase 'under the sun' over 20 times. It is addressed to human beings who live 'under the sun'. That's all of us, including the secularists.

Oz

I don't believe in soul sleep and I do read more than two verses,my point was to show,the flesh is dust,never to be used again....If you don't understand that we were with God before being born,ie,first earth and Heaven age,you won't get scripture....


We were never meant to be made flesh,had satan not rebelled we wouldn't be....

 

[kerwin]

I don't believe in soul sleep and I do read more than two verses,my point was to show,the flesh is dust,never to be used again....If you don't understand that we were with God before being born,ie,first earth and Heaven age,you won't get scripture....


We were never meant to be made flesh,had satan not rebelled we wouldn't be....

Are you a Gnostic; as it sounds like you consider Satan the demi-urge?