Imminent.

blessedhope · Feb 17, 2016

Sorry At The End! The Bride Of Christ will not enter Jacobs Troubles.

ATP · Feb 17, 2016

blessedhope said:
Sorry At The End! The Bride Of Christ will not enter Jacobs Troubles.

Then why does Matt 24 say otherwise...

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

blessedhope said:
Yes The Church And The State of Israel and the Jews Travel a different path. Enjoy

Yes they do bhope. Very good. The church will be raptured before Jesus comes down to earth.

Wormwood · Feb 17, 2016

blessedhope said:
And The rapture is one of the greatest gifts that God has promised the faithful. So great in fact it is often referred to as the "blessed hope:" "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;" (Titus 2:13). The promise is that someday soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the clouds and take up believers to Heaven.

Please show me one verse in the Bible that suggests the secret rapture of Christians from the earth while leaving the wicked and unbelieving behind.

At the rapture Jesus will physically transform us in a fraction of a second from our aging, achy, disease-prone bodies to new, glorified and immortal bodies suitable for eternity. The Bible describes this transformation as occurring in "the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). Some sources estimate that is as fast as eleven one-hundredths of a second.
It is unclear what unbelievers will see or hear when the rapture occurs. Some scholars believe that the trumpet of the Lord, and his appearing in the sky, will only be sensed by believers being raptured. The unsaved may only see the vanishing of believers in a fraction of a second and hear a loud thunder clap, "...in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:52). Jesus tells us that it will be sudden, "For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be (Matthew 24:27).

In my opinion, no verse that speaks of the 2nd Coming indicates it to be a secret event only sensed by believers. 1 Thess. 5 speaks of "that day" (the day of the "rapture" in chapter 4) as the day with both the righteous and wicked are judged. Moreover, 1 Thess 4 and the verses you listed above make it evidently clear that this day will be a day that will impact all people. The context of Matt. 24 shows the coming of Jesus that is witnessed by all people, not just believers. “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30, ESV) And again, speaking of that same day when the he returns Jesus says, “the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:50–51, ESV)
The rapture is one of the most controversial topics in Christian eschatology. Much of that controversy stems from Satan's deceit in his attempts to keep believers ignorant of God's prophetic timeline. Satan knows Bible prophecy (Revelation 12:12). He recognizes the significance of world events as signs of the times that Jesus is coming soon. Because Satan does not want anyone else to be aware of that fact he does everything possible to discredit or obscure God's prophetic word. That is why we are seeing a growing number of self-proclaimed experts criticizing the rapture, especially the pre-tribulation rapture. Criticism ranges from claims that the word "rapture" never appears in the Bible to it being a hoax stemming from a satanic vision.

1. The rapture (as portrayed by Dispensationalism) does never occur in the Bible...so that is a legitimate point. 2. No one is questioning the literal coming of Jesus as you make it sound. What we are questioning is this eschatological framework that exalts national Israel and has developed an end times scenario that makes the Church play second fiddle to the physical descendants of Abraham, which is often referred to by Paul as Judiazing and improperly exalting flesh over faith. So, those who reject the notion of the Dispensational version of the second...and then third coming of Jesus are not doing so because they do not believe Jesus will actually return, as you propose. We simply reject the idea that this return is a secret and the purpose of it is to remove the Church so God can focus on his true people, Israel.

Many criticisms of the rapture stem from legitimate disagreements over its timing. Others are part of Satan's fog of evil designed to keep believers from understanding God's plan. Perhaps the most common criticism is that neither the word "rapture," nor the rapture concept appears in the Bible. By that logic, the word Bible is also missing from scripture but that doesn't prevent people from referring to its 66 books as the Holy Bible.

No, people do not have a problem with the notion of a "rapture" or being "caught up" with the Lord. People have a problem with the way "rapture" has been defined as a secret coming by which believers secretly vanish from the earth and those who are living get a second chance after the Second Coming of Jesus to repent...once they realize the Christians have all disappeared. There is NOTHING in the NT that even hints at such an idea and this is an entirely loaded definition of "rapture" that goes far beyond what is described in 1 Thess. 4.

In fact, the term rapture comes from a Latin word Harpazo which means to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out. It is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them [dead believers] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord always." In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, "caught up," is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

Yes, and notice how this "rapture" includes: A shout of the Archangel, the trumpet call of God, the dead being raised, believers meeting Jesus in the air. Hardly sounds like a "secret" event. 1 Thess. 5 makes it clear that this "day" includes the judgement of the wicked as well.
The first clear mention of the concept of the rapture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, "I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ, also known as the Church age saints, will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated "to meet the Lord in the air." Paul then exhorts us to "comfort one another with these words."

Paul mentions the rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 51 and 52, his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." Paul's reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints (the raptured believers in Christ) will receive glorified bodies that will be perfected, imperishable and immortal (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, and 50-55).

This is misleading. You are simply quoting verses about Christ's return. However, none of these verses describe the "rapture" as you understand it. We all agree Jesus will return and we will all be changed. What you have yet to prove (because no Bible verse says it) is that the coming of Jesus is secretive, that believers vanish from the earth, and that the wicked remain to live out a Tribulation under the reign of an Antichrist until the 3rd coming of Jesus. Lets not confuse the two.

A second pernicious criticism is that the first appearance of a pre-tribulation rapture originated in a demonic vision by Margaret MacDonald. One of the most widely circulated attacks against its pre-trib timing is the notion that a Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it.

According to R. A. Huebner, in his well-documented book, "Precious Truths Revived and Defended Through J. N. Darby, Vol. 1" (Morganville, N. J.: Present Truth Publishers, 1991), Darby developed his belief in the pre-trib rapture while convalescing from a horse riding accident during December 1826 and January 1827, at least three years before anyone, including MacDonald, could have influenced his thought.

Many authors have suggested that the fever dream of this girl are attested to the origins of elements of this theory. See MacPherson, Cover Up.

Huebner documents that Darby's pre-trib rapture beliefs were developed from what "he saw from Isaiah 32 that there was a different dispensation coming . . . that Israel and the Church were distinct. Darby, himself said in 1857 that he first started understanding things relating to the pre-trib Rapture "thirty years ago." With that fixed point of reference Huebner documents that Darby "had already understood those truths upon which the pre-tribulation rapture hinges."

Other scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald. As far back as the 4th Century AD Ephraim the Syrian, a 4th Century deacon and theologian of the Syriac Orthodox Church, wrote a wide variety of hymns, poems, sermons and biblical exegesis. He is credited with a practical style of theology that helped explain Church doctrine during troubled times. He is also considered a Saint by some branches of Christianity. A sermon written by him sometime around 374 A.D. talks about the rapture:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?...For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (Source: Ice and Demy, 1999, pps. 55-66).

This is a blatant misrepresentation. The "tribulation" spoken of here is referring to the wrath of the Lamb in judging the world. It is not referring to the Dispensational reign of an Antichrist after the mysterious disapperance of all the Christians in the world. No early Christian ever thought of such a notion. The entire theory is not even as old as the United States. For almost 2000 of Christians studying the Bible, no one came up with any such notion until Darby. I find that very shocking for a view that is espoused to be so clearly biblical that the only reason people dont believe it is because Satan is covering it up!

There is also the discovery that Morgan Edwards wrote about his pre-tribulation rapture beliefs in 1744 and later published them in 1788. Edwards taught the following:

The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more- , because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thessalonians. IV:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Peter IV:17) . . . (The spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized for clarity.)

Edwards clearly separates the rapture from the Second Coming of Christ by three and a half years. He uses modern pre-trib rapture verses, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:2, to describe the rapture.

A more recent refutation of this criticism occurred during a recent meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society in late 2001 in Colorado Springs. At that conference, Francis X. Gumerlock presented a paper entitled "Before Darby: Expanding the Historical Boundaries of Pretribulationism." Gumerlock argues that Brother Dolcino and his sect, called the Apostolic Brethren, taught a pretribulation rapture around 1304 A.D.

Gumerlock's research led him to conclude that the fourteenth-century text, "The History of Brother Dolcino," demonstrates that some Christians in the Middle Ages held a view of the rapture that had basic elements of its pre-tribulation timing. These include a significant gap of time between the rapture of the saints - believing Christians - and their subsequent descent to earth during Christ's Second Coming and the purpose of the rapture related to escaping end-time tribulation.

This is nothing more than looking back through history to find some semblance of a quote that might possibly refer to a notion that Darby and a girl with a fever dream concoted in the 1800's. This is nothing more than reading into quotes to try to make it older and give it the appearance of biblical legitimacy. It is just blatant revisionist history. Almost every scholar that holds to Dispensationalism will admit that the view was first argued by Darby.

The most controversial aspect of the rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the tribulation making it concurrent with the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the tribulation. The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred.

I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told "to be ready" (Matt. 24:44), "to be on the alert" (Matt. 24:42), "to be dressed in readiness" (Luke 12:35), and to "keep your lamps alight" (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment. Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord's appearing for His Church.

Christians are in the tribulation and have been for over 2,000 years (Rev. 1:9). Just try telling the Christians over in Iran and North Korea that we arent going through tribulation. I think they would disagree with you. There is simply not one shred of biblical evidence for the notion of the "rapture" as defined by Dispensationalists. I believe Dispensationalism to be a dangerous doctrine. I think this scholar says it best:

In my judgment dispensational premillennialism is not just false doctrine; it is seriously false and dangerous doctrine (something I do not say about the two previous views). This is a dangerously false view because it is diversionary: the obsession to constantly restructure prophetic application to keep pace with ongoing world events absorbs the attention of many and keeps them from attending to more important spiritual matters. It is dangerously false because it detracts from the glory of Christ’s blood-created New Covenant (Luke 22:20) and his blood-bought new people, the church (Acts 20:28). Those who insist on continuing to exalt physical Israel in God’s plan are the new Judaizers and are violating every warning of Paul in Phil 3:2–3. A final reason this is a dangerously false view is that it creates a spurious and precarious basis for belief in Christ and his Word. By presuming to declare that contemporary events, especially about Israel, are the fulfillment of myriads of Bible prophecies, dispensationalists are thus tying the accuracy and trustworthiness of God’s Word to the fate of modern Israel. Thus it is no wonder that some weaker brethren might be led to say (as I once heard one affirm), “If the nation of Israel is ever defeated or destroyed, I will give up my faith.”

Jack Cottrell, The Faith Once for All: Bible Doctrine for Today (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub., 2002), 486–487.

Click to expand...

ATP · Feb 17, 2016

Some people are just too far gone.

blessedhope · Feb 17, 2016

Sorry>Worm if you don't like the RAPTURE> that's your problem,
And without that hope of the coming of our Lord, we have no gospel to preach. Death and the grave and Satan reign forever. Without this hope of the coming of our Lord, our footsteps hesitate. Our very walk is laggard. Our hands hang nervously by our sides. We are defeated before we even begin the fight of faith.
It is the blessed hope of Jesus’ coming again that gives us victory in this life and a promise of resurrection and immortality in the life to come [[SIZE=10pt]Romans 6:1-4, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23[/SIZE]]. If all we know is what we experience in this present world, our lives are lives of ultimate misery and the world in which we dwell is a world of unspeakable loss and helplessness and hopelessness and depravity and death and defeat.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, verse 19: “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” If all that we know and experience in this life is what we see facing an ultimate death, the Christian faith is like a bridge over a vast chasm and it stops in the middle of the abyss. It doesn't reach to the farther shore, and all who travel over that bridge fall helplessly into the abyss below if all that we see in this world is all that God hath in store for us who love Him.
If in this life we only have hope in Christ, then tyranny and wrong are to reign forever. Herod is on the throne, and John the Baptist lies headless in His own blood in the prison [[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 14:1-12, Mark 6:14-29[/SIZE]]. And history leaves them that way, Herod reigning and ruling and John the Baptist headless in His own blood.
If all that we know and experience is the summation of what God has proposed for us in this world and in this life, then inevitable death and the grave waits for us all. The pale horseman who rides in the sixth chapter of the Apocalypse wins every race [[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 6:8[/SIZE]]. The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power, all that beauty, all that wealth ever gave, away like the inevitable hour; the paths of glory lead but to the grave. “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable,” but the Scriptures present to us an altogether different promise.
In the holy Word of God, every horizon expands into a more beautiful day. There is a blessed hope for us. There's a blessed hope for the church. There's a blessed hope for our beloved dead. There's a blessed hope for each one of us.Enjoy

blessedhope · Feb 17, 2016

Yes there is a BlessedHope for the Church and it is called the RAPTURE! Enjoy.

blessedhope · Feb 17, 2016

And clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11,14>His Bride!Enjoy

rockytopva · Feb 17, 2016

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

rockytopva · Feb 17, 2016

I think the mid- and post- trib doctrines are dangerous because they help foster the lukewarm and complacency that is so prevalent today. If Christ's coming is not imminent... Eat, drink, and be merry! In which Christ himself warns...

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. - Luke 21:34

If this was post or mid trib I do not see the danger of the, "hearts overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life,"

Marcus O'Reillius · Feb 17, 2016

In my judgment dispensational premillennialism is not just false doctrine; it is seriously false and dangerous doctrine (something I do not say about the two previous views). This is a dangerously false view because it is diversionary: the obsession to constantly restructure prophetic application to keep pace with ongoing world events absorbs the attention of many and keeps them from attending to more important spiritual matters. It is dangerously false because it detracts from the glory of Christ’s blood-created New Covenant (Luke 22:20) and his blood-bought new people, the church (Acts 20:28). Those who insist on continuing to exalt physical Israel in God’s plan are the new Judaizers and are violating every warning of Paul in Phil 3:2–3. A final reason this is a dangerously false view is that it creates a spurious and precarious basis for belief in Christ and his Word. By presuming to declare that contemporary events, especially about Israel, are the fulfillment of myriads of Bible prophecies, dispensationalists are thus tying the accuracy and trustworthiness of God’s Word to the fate of modern Israel. Thus it is no wonder that some weaker brethren might be led to say (as I once heard one affirm), “If the nation of Israel is ever defeated or destroyed, I will give up my faith.”

Jack Cottrell, The Faith Once for All: Bible Doctrine for Today (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub., 2002), 486–487.

Let's see if we can get past Jack's opinions and get to any real statements of fact about me, a Premillennial, Pre-Wrath, progressive dispensationalist.

"It's false and dangerous" - that's his opinion.
"It is a dangerously false view because it is diversionary." - again, that's his opinion; that has not been my experience.

So far we've got some very strong opinions here which don't allow any credence nor leeway for discussion.
Anytime, you go to the mat with your mind made up, it is a bar against any information entering the equation which could moderate such a view.

"...the obsession to constantly restructure prophetic application to keep pace with ongoing world events absorbs the attention of many..." - that's anecdotal evidence at best.

First, does dispensationalism restructure prophetic application?
Or, does it fit a literal prophetic application?

To the first, I would say no, but to the second I would say yes.

In trying to bend my mind to God's Plan, there are disparate and conflicting outcomes for Jews and Christians before they are made whole in Christ Jesus.
Indeed, having the Millennium at all, serves as the very basis for that reunification.

"It is dangerously false because it detracts from the glory of Christ’s blood-created New Covenant..." - How?
Eschatology does not detract from Christ Jesus' shed blood!

We come to salvation by the very same basis no matter what our thinking about the end-times.
The Gospel is the foundation for faith - and that faith must sustain me through what I believe from my study of eschatology - will be a very distressing even to the point of causing my untimely demise in an unjust manner.

"Those who insist on continuing to exalt physical Israel in God’s plan are the new Judaizers and are violating every warning of Paul in Phil 3:2–3."
Excuse me, but I take exception to this pejorative statement.

I do not exalt Israel when I look to her nationhood - so long in not being centuries of thought came to dismiss its necessity.
And while it came about by man, it was only because it is was part of God's Plan when Old Testament prophecy about the end is read literally.
I am not a Judaizer: I am a Christian, and you sir, are being patently offensive in a deliberate manner. Name calling is how we are to treat each other? I don't think so.
How dare you use the Bible against a fellow Christian who worships in the same way as you and teaches that only through Jesus can salvation come from the Father!
I do not preach the Law!
I preach patient endurance in faith in Christ!
And I do not need a physical Temple in Jerusalem to worship in spirit and prayer - as I do every day!
This does not mean there won't be a Temple in Jerusalem again!
And if I preach that prophetic fact - I am not preaching Judaism!
Nor am I implying that Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient when I look for a literal fulfillment of Ezekiel's last chapters in the future!

Is the Post/A-Millennial position that weak that it needs to excoriate those who don't hold it as not being a good enough Christian?
Oh, yes, I have observed that! Try reading WPM over on another eschatology forum; that's all he's about!

"...(dispensational premillennialism) creates a spurious and precarious basis for belief in Christ and his Word." - Nonsense! That is not a reason; it is his opinion.

My faith in Christ is unwavering because He ransomed me at a high price.
I have no hope aside from Jesus. I can not earn my way into Heaven; I am only as grass worthy of the fire.
However - being in Christ, He then extends to me Grace based on Faith buttressed by works as James said.
And the Father, looking at me, looks through Jesus' Holiness and I am only seen as Holy because of Christ's shed blood and God then calls me Holy - which we translate as Saint. (Look it up! It's the same in the Hebrew and the Greek!)

"By presuming to declare that contemporary events, especially about Israel, are the fulfillment of myriads of Bible prophecies..." - It is not a presumption to label as-of-yet unfulfilled Old Testament prophecy to the nation of Israel, but an outgrowth of looking forward to how God is going to make the shrew woman Israel accept His Yoke with prophecy which includes a physical nation located in the Middle East in her own borders.

The fact that there are myriad prophecies ought to weaken his criticism, but again, his mind is made up and any new information is not going to pierce his thinking.

I will tell you some contemporary events which will occur.
Israel will sign a peace treaty.
Israel will rebuild its Temple.
Israel will drop a nuke to protect itself.
And Israel will be invaded and overrun quite quickly in return.
And finally, Israel will host the abomination of desolation in the very Temple they built to God.

-- and then all hell is going to break loose - thank God!

"...dispensationalists are thus tying the accuracy and trustworthiness of God’s Word to the fate of modern Israel." - No we are not. We see God's prophecy coming true in modern times as the fulfillment of whole passages which had to be "spiritualized" before under centuries of teaching by the Roman Catholic Church that still predominates even in some Protestant denominations.

- and again, the fate of Israel is due to her unbelief in Christ Jesus as the Servant Messiah.
That will be corrected once they realize when their Messiah King comes after all is said and done in the one 'seven', that He is the same Jesus they had formerly rejected.
Then they will weep, but they will enter into the Sabbath Millennium which is designed to rejoin them to Christ Jesus.

And so all of Israel will be saved, but the fullness of the Gentiles must come first.
I guess you can say that Paul was the first dispensationalist.

"Thus it is no wonder that some weaker brethren might be led to say (as I once heard one affirm), “If the nation of Israel is ever defeated or destroyed, I will give up my faith.”" - Then what kind of faith does HE have?
Again an anecdotal bit of evidence because progressive dispensaitonalists do not hinge their faith on the nation of Israel. I do not, nor does any other that i know do.

I will tell you what I think is dangerous:
If a person is not watching what is happening, and assumes none of this means a hill of beans for salvation, they might just be duped into thinking: 'I have Jesus in my heart, and God will understand I have to provide for my family and take the mark of the beast,' - only to find when they knock on the door, Jesus says: "I know you not," and they are denied entry into the wedding feast of the Lamb.

rockytopva · Feb 17, 2016

^Thumbs that one up!

ATP · Feb 17, 2016

rockytopva said:
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

He comes as a thief to nonbelievers.

Nonbelievers
1. As it was in the days of Noah
2. people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
3. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away
4. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape
5. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

Believers
1. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you
2. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief
3. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
4. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
5. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
6. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
7. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Matt 24:37-39 NIV As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1 Thess 5:1-10 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

rockytopva said:
I think the mid- and post- trib doctrines are dangerous because they help foster the lukewarm and complacency that is so prevalent today. If Christ's coming is not imminent... Eat, drink, and be merry! In which Christ himself warns...

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. - Luke 21:34

If this was post or mid trib I do not see the danger of the, "hearts overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life,"

Eat, drink and be merry is describing nonbelievers.

Nonbelievers
1. As it was in the days of Noah
2. people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
3. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away
4. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape
5. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

Believers
1. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you
2. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief
3. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
4. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
5. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
6. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
7. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Matt 24:37-39 NIV As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1 Thess 5:1-10 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

rockytopva · Feb 17, 2016

ATP said:
He comes as a thief to nonbelievers.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. - Luke 21:34 (Note... He is talking to his followers, not to nonbelievers)

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

As I do not believe in eternal security, but that this is a race we must endure until the end, so I take these warnings as applying to all of us. If the angels who will fetch our souls behold us in partying, drunkenness, and the cares of this life they will pass us by and leave us for tribulation.

ATP · Feb 18, 2016

rockytopva said:
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. - Luke 21:34 (Note... He is talking to his followers, not to nonbelievers)

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

As I do not believe in eternal security, but that this is a race we must endure until the end, so I take these warnings as applying to all of us. If the angels who will fetch our souls behold us in partying, drunkenness, and the cares of this life they will pass us by and leave us for tribulation.

No rocky, He is referring to nonbelievers only. Eternal security and the perseverance of the saints is biblical. Believers persevere because God keeps His promises...

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is trustworthy in all he promises and faithful in all he does. 14The Lord upholds all who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down.

Acts 2:32-33 NIV God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Rom 4:13-25 NIV It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Gal 3:13-14 NIV Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Gal 3:18 NIV For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Gal 3:21-22 NIV Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 3:6 NIV This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Heb 9:15 NIV For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Heb 10:38-39 NIV And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.” 39But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

James 1:12 NIV / Psalm 66:9-12 NIV Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

2 Pet 1:3-4 NIV His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

blessedhope · Feb 18, 2016

And The Bible does instruct us to be ready for that day over and over again. Some of the words or phrases it uses to warn us are: to be sober, be alert, must also be ready, let us not sleep as others do, but let us watch. Many of these instructions are accompanied by descriptions of how people will be asleep, drunk, eating, drinking, marrying, and even scoffing about the Lord's return. The spiritual blindness that envelops the world has them believing things will continue on as they have been.

Wormwood · Feb 18, 2016

Sorry>Worm if you don't like the RAPTURE> that's your problem,

Well, this isnt about personal taste. I just would like it if someone is going to argue that those who oppose their doctrine are agents of Satan that they be willing to give some actual biblical evidence for that position.

And without that hope of the coming of our Lord, we have no gospel to preach. Death and the grave and Satan reign forever. Without this hope of the coming of our Lord, our footsteps hesitate. Our very walk is laggard. Our hands hang nervously by our sides. We are defeated before we even begin the fight of faith.

I get the feeling you didnt even read what I wrote. I believe in the coming of Jesus, so lets not knock down strawmen. I dont believe that coming will be a secret or that its purpose is to get the Church out of the way so God can reinstitute his first covenant with physical Israel again. Now THAT is taught nowhere in the Bible, imo.

It is the blessed hope of Jesus’ coming again that gives us victory in this life and a promise of resurrection and immortality in the life to come [[SIZE=10pt]Romans 6:1-4, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23[/SIZE]]. If all we know is what we experience in this present world, our lives are lives of ultimate misery and the world in which we dwell is a world of unspeakable loss and helplessness and hopelessness and depravity and death and defeat.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, verse 19: “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” If all that we know and experience in this life is what we see facing an ultimate death, the Christian faith is like a bridge over a vast chasm and it stops in the middle of the abyss. It doesn't reach to the farther shore, and all who travel over that bridge fall helplessly into the abyss below if all that we see in this world is all that God hath in store for us who love Him.
If in this life we only have hope in Christ, then tyranny and wrong are to reign forever. Herod is on the throne, and John the Baptist lies headless in His own blood in the prison [[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 14:1-12, Mark 6:14-29[/SIZE]]. And history leaves them that way, Herod reigning and ruling and John the Baptist headless in His own blood.

Again, I would appreciate if you read what I wrote rather than misrepresenting my position. I am not a preterist.

If all that we know and experience is the summation of what God has proposed for us in this world and in this life, then inevitable death and the grave waits for us all. The pale horseman who rides in the sixth chapter of the Apocalypse wins every race [[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 6:8[/SIZE]]. The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power, all that beauty, all that wealth ever gave, away like the inevitable hour; the paths of glory lead but to the grave. “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable,” but the Scriptures present to us an altogether different promise.
In the holy Word of God, every horizon expands into a more beautiful day. There is a blessed hope for us. There's a blessed hope for the church. There's a blessed hope for our beloved dead. There's a blessed hope for each one of us.Enjoy

I agree in the hope of Christ's return. I just dont believe in Dispensationalism. The two are not the same.

Wormwood · Feb 18, 2016

Marcus O'Reillius said:
Let's see if we can get past Jack's opinions and get to any real statements of fact about me, a Premillennial, Pre-Wrath, progressive dispensationalist.

"It's false and dangerous" - that's his opinion.

That is why he says, "in my judgment..." Of course he explains his opinion and why he hold it, namely, it is false because there is no biblical evidence to support it and it is dangerous because it leads to all kinds of false hope and using the Bible as a pretext to decipher events it is not in any way addressing.

"It is a dangerously false view because it is diversionary." - again, that's his opinion; that has not been my experience.

Oh come now. I have seen you in furious debates with other Dispensationalists on this board and it seems every new government or world event is somehow being crammed into these supposed eschatological timelines and theories that have absolutely nothing to do with the intent of the Biblical author. I could take 5 minutes and copy and paste about 100 pages of the bible being used improperly to explain modern-day world events if you like...

So far we've got some very strong opinions here which don't allow any credence nor leeway for discussion.
Anytime, you go to the mat with your mind made up, it is a bar against any information entering the equation which could moderate such a view.

Well if you were to buy his book, you would see that he has several hundred pages of explanation. Moreover, he has PhD from Princeton and so I think he is well studied on the matter. The point of the book is to explain biblical theology from his extensive study, not enter into a dialogue so he can try to make up his mind on what he believes about the end times. I dont know how many books you buy on such matters where the author is looking for explanations rather than trying to give them, but this seems fairly standard to me.

First, does dispensationalism restructure prophetic application?
Or, does it fit a literal prophetic application?
To the first, I would say no, but to the second I would say yes.

Tell that to Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe and the dozens of other Dispensationalists that are continually assigning verses to current events to form timelines that end up being nothing but fools gold. The number of world leaders I have heard referred to as the "Antichrist" and supposed conflicts or government acts that have been deemed the beginning of some end times scenario are legion. These shots in the dark do nothing but cause unbelievers to discredit the Bible.

Eschatology does not detract from Christ Jesus' shed blood!

It does when it focuses so much on finding signs of the times and figuring out the world's Antichrist then it does calling people to patience, kindness, self control and love by faith in Jesus. I have seldom seen such animosity and venom spewed than two well convinced Dispensationalists arguing about pre-trib, post-trib and other such meaningless debates.

Excuse me, but I take exception to this pejorative statement.

I do not exalt Israel when I look to her nationhood - so long in not being centuries of thought came to dismiss its necessity.

And while it came about by man, it was only because it is was part of God's Plan when Old Testament prophecy about the end is read literally.

I am not a Judaizer: I am a Christian, and you sir, are being patently offensive in a deliberate manner. Name calling is how we are to treat each other? I don't think so.

How dare you use the Bible against a fellow Christian who worships in the same way as you and teaches that only through Jesus can salvation come from the Father!

I do not preach the Law!

I preach patient endurance in faith in Christ!

And I do not need a physical Temple in Jerusalem to worship in spirit and prayer - as I do every day!

This does not mean there won't be a Temple in Jerusalem again!

And if I preach that prophetic fact - I am not preaching Judaism!

Nor am I implying that Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient when I look for a literal fulfillment of Ezekiel's last chapters in the future!

Is the Post/A-Millennial position that weak that it needs to excoriate those who don't hold it as not being a good enough Christian?
Oh, yes, I have observed that! Try reading WPM over on another eschatology forum; that's all he's about!

No, it is a fact. Dispensationalism reworks all of the NT writing about the church and turns its all to an unhealthy focus on national Israel rather than the blood-bought people of faith. There are so many people in America that want to bomb the Middle East out of support for Israel due to this kind of biblical framework that it is frightening. I often hear such Christians talk about the "true people of God" being Israel such that it seems all of Paul's warnings and revelations about who we are in Christ are completely undermined. Was Paul calling names when he was alarmed that Christians were focusing on flesh rather than faith? I am sure the Judiazers thought so and I am sure their argument was that they were only embracing what God had given his people in a "literal" sense. The fact is that the idea of the Temple being rebuilt, animal sacrifices being reinstituted and the Church being removed so God can focus on his "true people" is a horrific turning back and ignoring of the significance of Christ's work. How can you say you do not preach Law when you are claiming there is a nation of people who are God's chosen people due to their nationality and circumcision!? We preach faith. If a person is not a person of faith in Christ, then they are not true Israel and they are not heirs of the promise. God does not show favoritism, yet those who argue Dispensationaism claim that he truly does show favoritism to flesh-born Jews who are circumcised and keep the first covenant. Paul lost his head because he preached faith in Christ alone and that there is no special favoritism toward Jews. You are undermining the things that were of such importance to Paul that he was willing to give his life for it.

...(dispensational premillennialism) creates a spurious and precarious basis for belief in Christ and his Word." - Nonsense! That is not a reason; it is his opinion.

Well, actually he gives reasons for this opinion and shows that many Christians put their faith in national Israel as much as they do the Bible. Their trust in the Bible is tied to the fate of Israel. That was his point, and I think most Dispensationalists would agree that their entire view of the Bible is based on the fate of Israel. Would you not question the legitimacy of the Bible if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow? Most Dispensationalists would. That is his point and I think it is a valid one.

My faith in Christ is unwavering because He ransomed me at a high price.
I have no hope aside from Jesus. I can not earn my way into Heaven; I am only as grass worthy of the fire.
However - being in Christ, He then extends to me Grace based on Faith buttressed by works as James said.
And the Father, looking at me, looks through Jesus' Holiness and I am only seen as Holy because of Christ's shed blood and God then calls me Holy - which we translate as Saint. (Look it up! It's the same in the Hebrew and the Greek!)

Again, I think you are missing the point he is making. He is not questioning whether or not Dispensationalists trust in Jesus. He is questioning their understanding of the covenants and the result of Jesus' work which puts such a dangerously high emphasis on a nation of people, their need for a Temple and sacrifices, and their current day events.

If a person is not watching what is happening, and assumes none of this means a hill of beans for salvation, they might just be duped into thinking: 'I have Jesus in my heart, and God will understand I have to provide for my family and take the mark of the beast,' - only to find when they knock on the door, Jesus says: "I know you not," and they are denied entry into the wedding feast of the Lamb.

This is the kind of utter nonsense that we find so dangerous. This focus on possible "marks of the beast" as a means of gaining or losing salvation. That somehow our "salvation" is tied to these ridiculous end-times scenarios that no Dispensationalists can even seem to agree on amongst themselves! If you pick up 100 different dispensational books you will get 100 different imaginations about what this "mark of the beast is." What is clear in Revelation is that people have the mark of the beast now...just as some have the seal of the Spirit. Dispensationals are so caught up with newspapers and political discourse that they miss the real message of revelation. Christians are called to endure under current tribulation in its various forms that would cause them to compromise. It is not about accidentally losing salvation because of some mysterious mark that someone didnt have the foresight ot figure out. It is about people compromising the truth in order to acquiesce to the pressures and pleasures of a godless culture. Focusing on microchips, tattoos, credit cards and whatever else as these possible "marks of the beast" misses the real call of the Bible for Christians to live godly lives that are willing to give up their lives before they give up their fidelity to Christ. Christians arent going to accidently get duped into losing their salvation....this is the kind of reworking the biblical understanding of salvation that is so incredibly dangerous. It is similar to Gnosticism that proposes salvation is recieved by having the right knowledge of end times events and entirely overlooks the real message of the Bible to daily prayer, love, grace, and faithfulness. I assure you, God will not let his faithful ones get "duped" because they unknowingly got a credit card or some nonsense and end up losing their salvation because somehow that identifies them with Satan. smh

Marcus O'Reillius · Feb 18, 2016

Wormwood said:
What is clear in Revelation is that people have the mark of the beast now...just as some have the seal of the Spirit.

Any time someone says "it is clear", I know it is anything but clear - and what follows is just their conclusion.

Now while I disagree with every point you make, and I'd counter with a completely different viewpoint, what I see here as a fundamental difference is our mode of interpretation of the book of Revelation, specifically chapters 4-22.

They are:

Futurist
Historist
Preterist
Idealist

It is fairly easy to see where you and Amillennialists like WPM come from - Idealist.
I, however, am a Futurist.

So we have conflicting methods of interpretation.
I take a literal approach. This does not attempt to make points of figurative speech that do occur in prophecy in a literal manner.

Thus, I look at the "abomination of desolation", which occurs midpoint of the one 'seven' in Daniel 9:27, which Jesus referenced in Mt 24:15, and as He later revealed to John as the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 - as a specific and unique, literal, and quite physical, event in the timeline of the end.

Quite inline with that, then two laws are revealed in Revelation chapter 13 coming with that seminal and epic moment which make the Great Tribulation nearly wipe out the Elect - and that is a prophetic fact as Jesus told us through the Olivet Discourse.

The "mark of the beast" therefore in my view is a physical object which is pressed (using the Greek verb) (or inserted) into the hand or head. That we now have the technology to do this is not surprising! In fact, I think the whole of our history is guided by God to lead up to the very cataclysmic end foretold in both New and Old Testaments. Just because we now have the means to fulfill what was written, doesn't mean it's meaningless - or just coincidental! (And coincidence sometimes is just God's way of staying anonymous...)

As the sometimes obscure, contradictory, difficult, and even seemingly figurative prophecies about Jesus had a literal fulfillment in Him; so too, do I look for a literal fulfillment in the future.

So I don't think the mark of the beast is entirely spiritual.

I think it is a real test which will fall to the Elect who will pass it, but many in the church will fail. None of whom God has preordained will fail, but many who profess faith will. They are the foolish virgins of Jesus' parable of the ten virgins in Mt 25:1-13.

As I cannot judge who in the church has been preordained, I preach being aware of the times and patient endurance, which encompasses your call to faith, as in to remain steadfast, and keep the faith - all three are translations of the same Greek verb: hypomone.

And that verb is used in conjunction with the Great Tribulation, which Jesus defined as a specific and unique time sandwiched between the 'abomination(s)' and the Day of the Lord - which relates right back to the 'mark of the beast' you dismiss as being spiritual in an idealistic way.

So really we have totally different ways of interpretation - calling mine dangerous, or heretical, or satanic, is not how we are ever going to discuss our differences, nor is it beneficial to the body, nor is it how we should treat each other.

ATP · Feb 18, 2016

blessedhope said:
And The Bible does instruct us to be ready for that day over and over again. Some of the words or phrases it uses to warn us are: to be sober, be alert, must also be ready, let us not sleep as others do, but let us watch. Many of these instructions are accompanied by descriptions of how people will be asleep, drunk, eating, drinking, marrying, and even scoffing about the Lord's return. The spiritual blindness that envelops the world has them believing things will continue on as they have been.

Being alert and sober is part of persevering, so yes saints will be alert and sober when rapture comes. Watch for the signing of the peace treaty first.

Wormwood · Feb 18, 2016

Any time someone says "it is clear", I know it is anything but clear - and what follows is just their conclusion.

Well, maybe you use word cues to make assumptions about ideas. I personally think it is clear. I guess you need to explain to me why it is so clear that the "mark of the beast" is physical while the mark of the Spirit is spiritual. The concepts are right next to each other and nothing here indicates one is physical and the other is spiritual. Thus, it seems "clear" that the mark of the Lamb and the mark of the beast are very similar...and I have never heard anyone talk about making sure they receive the Lamb's mark in their end times charts and graphs. Why is that?

“He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666. Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 13:16–14:1, NIV84)

I take a literal approach. This does not attempt to make points of figurative speech that do occur in prophecy in a literal manner.

Ok, so you believe Jesus literally has seven eyes and seven horns? You believe Jesus literally vomits double edged swords to strike down the nations? You believer there are literally 10,000 x 10,000 angels circling the throne (not one more or one less?)? You believe there will be a literal dragon that walks around on the earth and that he calls literal beasts out of the ocean and land to do his bidding? I just want to make sure you are literally being literal here. The fact is, everyone takes Revelation figuratively, the question is to what extent. So lets not make this sound like one group doesnt take the Bible seriously and the other does.

The "mark of the beast" therefore in my view is a physical object which is pressed (using the Greek verb) (or inserted) into the hand or head. That we now have the technology to do this is not surprising! In fact, I think the whole of our history is guided by God to lead up to the very cataclysmic end foretold in both New and Old Testaments. Just because we now have the means to fulfill what was written, doesn't mean it's meaningless - or just coincidental! (And coincidence sometimes is just God's way of staying anonymous...)

Or there could be another explanation for the Greek word...one that would actually make sense to the first century readers...

χάραγμα (“mark”) was used of the emperor’s seal on business contracts and the impress of the Roman ruler’s head on coins. If this background is in mind in Revelation 13, then it enforces the metaphorical idea that the mark alludes to the state’s political and economic “stamp of approval,” given only to those who go along with its religious demands. Interestingly, Ignatius (Magnesians 5) uses a coin metaphor the way John uses the “mark”: “there are two coinages, the one of God and the other of the world, and each has its proper stamp impressed on it, the unbelievers the stamp of this world, but the faithful in love the stamp of God the Father through Jesus Christ.” If the “mark” in Rev. 13:16–17 is to be taken literally, which is unlikely, it means that Christians are excluded from economic dealings because they refuse to use the common, yet idolatrous, means of economic dealings. The “mark on the forehead,” which is “the name of the beast” and “the number of his name” (so v 17), is the parody and opposite of the “seal” in 7:3–8, which is the divine “name written on the foreheads” of true believers (14:1; so likewise 22:4; 3:12).

G. K. Beale, The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1999), 715–716.

As the sometimes obscure, contradictory, difficult, and even seemingly figurative prophecies about Jesus had a literal fulfillment in Him; so too, do I look for a literal fulfillment in the future.

Let us not confuse "spiritual" and "literal." John the Baptist was a "literal" person who "spiritually" or figuratively embodied the Elijah to come. The same is true with how I view Revelation. Just because many of these scriptures indicate spiritual events, does not mean they are not "literal" nor does it mean that they are not accompanied with actual physical events and people. The dragon is still at work today and he uses false religions, governments and real persecution to accomplish his work. So, lets not portray this as actual vs. not actual. Spiritual realities are very real and just because something is spiritual and not physical does not mean it is not literal.

So I don't think the mark of the beast is entirely spiritual.

Neither do I. It reveals itself as compromise, sexual immorality, idolatry and a host of other wicked actions that the churches in chapters 1-3 are warned about. Remember, this was written to them...suggesting most of this refers to 21st century (or beyond) technology that had ntohing to do with the people to whom these letters were written is a terrible way to approach these texts. It is nothing more than contemporary arrogance to see these texts as having everything to do with modern day Russia, Israel, America, etc. and basically nothing to do with the first readers.

And that verb is used in conjunction with the Great Tribulation, which Jesus defined as a specific and unique time sandwiched between the 'abomination(s)' and the Day of the Lord - which relates right back to the 'mark of the beast' you dismiss as being spiritual in an idealistic way.

What you ignore is that this same word, hupomone, is used by John at the beginning of this letter to talk about the current "tribulation" thlipsis that those present day Christians were facing...which is why John was on Patmos. It is not a future 7 year period but a present tribulation that John was addressing to early believers...and that tribulation has continued to this day.

“I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering (thlipsis) and kingdom and patient endurance (hupomone) that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” (Revelation 1:9, NIV84)

So really we have totally different ways of interpretation - calling mine dangerous, or heretical, or satanic, is not how we are ever going to discuss our differences, nor is it beneficial to the body, nor is it how we should treat each other.

As I recall, this OP says that those who discount the dispensational view suffer from "willful ignorance" and that person goes on to imply that those who reject it are tools of Satan to hide the truth. I never said you were satanic or heretical. I said the view is dangerous because it ties the reliability of the Bible with current day events and wrongly exalts Israel as the "chosen people" due to their flesh. It also infers that the work of Christ was not sufficient to fulfill all of God's promises, but that there are many OT promises left unfulfilled. Thus God has to remove the Church so he can get back to fulfilling His promises to Israel under the first covenant. I think the NT is very clear that the first covenant has faded away and that we should not look to the previous covenant as it was only a shadow of the better things that were to come. Moreover, all of God's promises are "yes" in Christ Jesus. Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law and the Prophets and to suggest that he didnt undermines his ministry and the cross, imo. So, yes, I view the doctrine as dangerous because I think it emphasizes things the NT explicitly declares no longer to be of importance to God while minimizing the things that are important. Do I believe dispensationalists are Satanic? No. Do I think a person can be a genuine Christian and a Dispensationalist? Yes. Do I think the doctrine leads people to major in minors and miss the major tenants and emphasis of the NT and wrongly tie Biblical truth with self-contrived timelines that are nowhere scripted in the Bible? Yes. I think many people discredit the Bible because of the false predictions as assumptions people make about various Bible verses and how they find their fulfillment in things like the Sovient Union, Sadam Hussain, Vladimir Putin, United Nations and so forth. People soon quit believing the Bible because so called scholars were adamant that the "Soviet Union" was the reincarnation of ancient Rome and marked the beginning of the end times tapistry....only to find out that the Soviet Union dissolves and all those supposed predictions were false. It gives the Bible a bad name and no one holds these false prophets and teachers accountable for tying God's truth to their misguided interpretations and disillusions.

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Active Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Chaps

Chaps

Active Member

New Member

Chaps

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