Imminent.

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blessedhope

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Among those who are truly born again, there are many views of how things will play out, prophetically speaking. At the same time, there are also many who don't know and many who don't care about prophecy--what God has foretold about their future. They are too busy living out their increments of life one heartbeat and breath at a time.
Sadly, the latter by far constitute the majority. That is, most don't know about Bible prophecy, and most don't care. They are aided and abetted in their willful ignorance by the pastors and Bible teachers within their church bodies in this disregard for the prophetic portion of God's Word. That prophetic Word is almost one-third of the Scripture the Lord has given us through His Love Letter to mankind.
Even more specifically, I want to concentrate for the moment on the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church--that twinkling of an eye moment Paul wrote about as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:52-55.
Of those who have truly been born again, there are few in number who know about the Rapture in concrete terms or who grasp that there will come that moment of being called into Heaven by their Lord. In America, even those who do understand that the Rapture is an event prophetically scheduled according to the Bible resist embracing the promise intrinsic within the doctrine of that imminent call from Christ. That is, rather than desire to hear Christ's call, "Come up here," (Revelation 4: 1) these want to first live life on earth and fulfill all of the anticipated pleasures it offers
 

Angelina

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You know...not every Christian in the world believes the "Rapture" doctrine and not every believer has been called to be prophets. Particularly "Last Day Prophets" ~ some folks are busy evangelizing and leading sinners to the cross... :huh:

Shalom!
 

keras

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Right, Angelina! We have work to do here on earth, none of this pretentious notion of being whisked outta here.
Our task and destiny is clearly told to us in Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10 and is will be all the Lord's people who will display His glory to the nations. Ezekiel 39:27
 

boldncourageous

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Blessedhope has a point. In China the government church allows for just about anything to be taught in their appointed church. Three topics are not allowed, evangelism (especially to children), supernatural works of the saints (such as the book of Acts), and eschatology (Christ's return). You cannot separate one from the other without creating your own religion. Prior to the fall of the Red Curtain in China the rapture doctrine was taught. When persecution and tribulation came many fell away from the faith, turning in their brethren. They believed, as they were taught, that they wouldn't be participating in such tribulation and persecution, because they would be raptured out prior to it. Today, as a majority, the true underground Chinese church views the rapture doctrine as a doctrine of man/devils.

The very message of salvation is not a sinners' prayer. Jesus taught total surrender. In His evangelical message of the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that we must have the mindset for tribulation and persecution otherwise we have "stony" soil rather than fertile... Mark 4:18.

In the context of His return, Jesus also taught the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25). All were awaiting His return, however, half we are told did not believe that it would take so long for Him to show, so they didn't prepare themselves. "Surely, He would return sooner!", they thought. Did Jesus just pull a number out of a hat? Or is He God, and when He suggests 50 percent not making it, He actually knew what He was talking about? We must understand that the 50 percent that didn't have the oil necessary, were told, "Depart from me, I never knew you!" That does not mean they get another chance... that means that there is another place made suitable for them. It is called "hell." So when considering the whole of Scripture, eschatology, is not to be ignored, but rather considered with fear and trembling. Half of those waiting for His return will not make it. So often today, the message of the "stony", or "weedy" soil is evangelized, rather than the "fertile" one.
 

rockytopva

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Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

Metaphors...

Thief - Christ comes in a time we think not... So this event cannot be post trib
Watcheth - Because he comes as a thief we need to be prepared for this event as imminent.
Garments - Your spiritual man
Naked - No form of virtue
They - The angels that will fetch your soul
Shame - No form of virtue
 

blessedhope

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And Well, that just leaves one more, and people sort of grudgingly say well, okay, it's the rapture, but it's not the pre-trib rapture, it's just the rapture. Now when you get into this subject of the tribulation and the rapture what you discover is there's many views on this subject. In fact, sometimes you feel like you're in the tribulation itself trying to navigate your way through all these views.
But the view that we represent is the pre-tribulation rapture where the church is going to be removed before the tribulation period even begins. Then you have mid-tribulationalists who believe that the rapture will occur in the middle of the tribulation. Then you have post-tribulationalists who say the rapture will occur at the end of the tribulation period. And if that wasn't complicated enough somebody comes along with something called the pre-wrath rapture; I call it three-quarters rapture because the church is supposed to be here for three quarters (roughly) of the tribulation period before the wrath of God starts.
So people say okay, it's the rapture but it's not pretribulational, it's post or pre-wrath or mid or whatever. What did Jesus say? "Do not let your heart be troubled." The rapture teaching is designed to bring comfort to the believer. Can I ask you a question? Which of these views comforts you? I mean, if you're telling me that I've got to endure 42 months of hell on earth or three quarters of hell on earth, then assuming my head is not cut off by the antichrist, then I have the hope of being raptured I may be a little old fashioned but I find no comfort in that whatsoever. What comforts me is the first view, that I will escape the tribulation period and the wrath of God. I mean, why would you say "comfort you with these words" if we are going to be plunged into the wrath of God. It just doesn't fit, it doesn't make any sense.
And remember what also Jesus said in John 14:3, He says, "...I will come again and receive you to Myself...." Remember what we said that meant? That meant imminence, any moment this event called the rapture could take place. All of those verses I have on the screen in the epistles, as you research them you'll see that the rapture is always held out as the very next event on the prophetic horizon. I am not looking for the antichrist. I am looking for Jesus Christ!
Now question, which of these views teaches imminence? Which of these views teaches that Jesus Christ can come back today. Mr. Mid-tribulationalist, can Jesus come back today? No, because forty-two months of the tribulation period must transpire before the hope of the rapture can occur. Mr. Post-tribulationalist, can Jesus come back today? No, seven years of tribulation must manifest itself before Jesus can return to rapture the church. Mr. three-quarters rapturist, pre-wrath rapturist, can Jesus Christ come back today? No, three-quarters of the tribulation period must take place before Jesus Christ can come back. Mr. pre-tribulationalist, can Jesus Christ come back today? Yes.
You know, John Walvoord, the great prophecy scholar at Dallas Seminary had a plaque in his office on his wall, and this is what it said: Perhaps today. Do you know that we are the only view that says "Perhaps today." The mid-tribulationalist says at best perhaps in forty-two months. The post-tribulationalist says perhaps in seven years. We say perhaps today, and that fits, does it not, so well Christ's teaching on imminency, as Paul develops it in the Upper Room Discourse.
Now the second to last view has big problems, that's post-tribulationalism. Post-tribulationalism says the church is caught up at the end of the tribulation, only to be brought back down. If that's true, then what is the purpose of the heavenly dwellings that He's building. If we're to be caught up only to be brought back down and we have no seven year destiny to fulfill with Christ in heaven, than why is He busy preparing these temporary heavenly dwellings? It doesn't make any sense.
Hal Lindsey, in a very good book he wrote, called The Rapture, puts it this way: Since he says, "He is going to come in order that we may be with Him where He is, we would have to be with Him here on the earth, according to post-tribulationalism." Do you see the problem? The dwelling place in the Father's house would be unused. This makes Jesus' whole promise ridiculous. Why would He speak of preparing a place for us in the Father's house if He didn't mean that His return would take us there?
Every view you go through that people throw out, believer's death, believer's salvation, Christ's resurrection, the coming of the Holy Spirit, non pre-tribulational rapture, every view they create or come up with has more problems than simply believing Christ's straight forward statement. John 14:1, "Do not let your heart be troubled, believe in God, believe also in Me. [2] In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. [3] If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. [4] And you know the way where I am going."
I hope you leave with absolute conviction that the rapture is on the horizon. I can't promise it will happen in our lifetime; I pray it will. But it is a glorious event that the Lord brings to our attention. We've looked at the preliminary reason why a rapture understanding of these verses is true. We've done an exegesis in John 14:1-4, and we've answered the non-rapture arguments.
You know, the biggest question is are you ready for Him. If it were to occur today, tonight, would you go. And of course, as was expressed so eloquently in the prior session, it's the single condition of faith alone in Christ alone, which not only saves but it ushers us into the glorious promises of God where we learn that there's a better world coming and there's hope beyond this life. And as bad as this world can get and is getting we live with any moment expectation that Jesus could come back at any moment for His church.
Shall we pray: Father, we are so grateful for what You revealed in the Upper Room to these disciples of yours 2,000 years ago. We are grateful for the work of the Spirit whereby this great doctrinal truth was brought to greater fruition and understanding through the epistles. Make us great students of this truth, Father; make it part of our being and part of our hopeful expectation.
 

blessedhope

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And I think we ought to be open to a rapture interpretation of John 14:1-4 is the writings of the earliest church fathers. George Gunn, who wrote a very good paper on this subject, entitled The Father's House, Are We There Yet? Goes through various church fathers, like Papias and Irenaeus and Tertullian and even Origen, and Cyprian, and he shows that the earliest church fathers interpreted John 14:1-4 with a heavenly and eschatological grid. But then George Gunn says this: "Interestingly, references to John 14:1-3 virtually disappear when perusing the writings of the Nicene and Post Nicene fathers. This is a bit surprising given the abundance of material in these latter writers when compared with the anti-Nicaeans. I would assume the rise of Augustine and amillennialism and its optimistic interpretation regarding the present arrival of the Kingdom of God, the kind of help held out in John 14:1-3, cease to hold relevance."

What happened to the church? Well, up north you see a school there called Antioch, and that was the dominant way of Christian thinking for the first two centuries of the church. All of the people that were influenced by the school of Antioch took prophecy literally. But what began to develop down south in a place called Alexandria, Egypt, was an allegorical method of interpretation. In other words, I know the text says what it says, but I know one thing, it doesn't really mean what it says type of viewpoint. A lot of these folks would do real well on the current United States Supreme Court, by the way.
 

blessedhope

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And But they began to approach the prophecy in a nonliteral fashion and they began to say that we are in the kingdom of God now, it's called amillennialism. Now if we are currently in the kingdom I have to say this, I must be living in the ghetto section of town because I just don't see kingdom conditions. But if you believe that we are in the kingdom and this is the home of the church on earth, then you stop looking for the any moment appearing of Jesus Christ to rescue us from the world. That doctrine becomes irrelevant because we, after all, are in the kingdom. And so as the church began to be influenced by the Alexandrian School of Interpretation, the teaching on the rapture began to be lost. It was there in the earliest church fathers.
 

rockytopva

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Christ comes as a thief... In times unlooked for...

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13

At that day and hour knows no man... Not the angels, not even the Son, Christ Jesus himself...

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

Watch... Watch... Watch~ For the son of man comes in an hour in which ye think not... Therefore it cannot be post or mid trib.
 

keras

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The whole theory of a rapture to heaven is wrong. Jesus Himself refutes it. John 3:13, John 15:17

What should be understood is the truth of God's plans for His people:
First, all the Holy Land area will be cleared and cleansed. Deut. 32:43, Isaiah 66:15-21, Malachi 4-1-3
The Lord will send rain and regenerate the Land. Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 3:18
Then His people will gather and be judged; Ezekiel 20:34-38
They will live in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
After a few years they will be attacked from the North. The attackers will be wiped out by the Lord. Ezekiel 38/39, Joel 2:20
Later, the leader of the rest of the world will come to Beulah and make a 7 year treaty of peace with them. Daniel 9:27
The first half will be peaceful, but then he will attack and conquer Beulah. Daniel 7:25 Half of the people will be taken to safety during this 3.5 year Great Tribulation period and half will remain in Beulah. Zechariah 14:1-2, Rev 12
Then Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
The whole theory of a rapture to heaven is wrong. Jesus Himself refutes it. John 3:13, John 15:17
Jesus never refuted what He taught when He said that He would gather up the Elect when He comes again.

Once again, rabbi keras misrepresents what Jesus says.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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John 15:17. This is my command: Love each other.

How does this refute being caught up with the resurrected souls Jesus brings with Him when He comes for us who remain and are still alive?

Silly rabbi: Trix are for kids.
 
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Marcus O'Reillius

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The Great Tribulation is cut short by the sudden arrival of the Day of the Lord.

It does not run the rest of of the one 'seven'.

Now as far as imminence, why was this preached to the Church?

Because our meeting Jesus could happen at any time - none of us know what the future holds and when we will die.
 

Born_Again

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
John 15:17. This is my command: Love each other.

How does this refute being caught up with the resurrected souls Jesus brings with Him when He comes for us who remain and are still alive?

Silly rabbi: Trix are for kids.
Man, whether I agree or not, you crack me up sometimes. LOL I think that is the only reason I read these threads in here LOL.
 

rockytopva

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The bible emphasizes that Christ comes as a thief, in times like Lot and Noah, unlooked for! To teach the deliverance of the Saints as mid or post trib is to make it well announced. In the words of John MacArthur, if this event was post trib it would be a quick trip to be raptured away and then seconds later return with Christ to reign a thousand years.

And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in. - Genesis 7:16

I believe that God shut Noah in the Ark when the skies were still blue. But once the door was shut and it began to rain then I can imagine a great gathering of humanity outside the ark wanting in. But it was too late!

And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. - Genesis 19:14

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17

Normal every times!

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. - 1 Thessalonians 5

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.- Matthew 24:44

Therefore the pre-trib believer has the advantage, as he believes this prophecy imminent, so he will keep himself pure and not of darkness, that that day overtakes him not as a thief (1 Thess 5:4)
 

rockytopva

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I can hear the mid or post trib teachers in the time of Lot and Noah now!

"Guys! No worries! You will survive the great flood and the destruction of Sodom! And then when the destruction is complete God will come for your lost souls!"
 

StanJ

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Angelina said:
You know...not every Christian in the world believes the "Rapture" doctrine and not every believer has been called to be prophets. Particularly "Last Day Prophets" ~ some folks are busy evangelizing and leading sinners to the cross... :huh:

Shalom!
What the heck is a "Last Day Prophet" ? :huh:
 

StanJ

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lforrest said:
One of those described here Acts 2:17
OK, well not quite, and that was 2000 years ago. Son's and daughters do prophesy today and have been since the Day of Pentecost, but I don't see them being last days prophets as I understand that, in light of the context that Joel prophesied this in?