Eternal Security

amadeus · Sep 18, 2018

Rollo Tamasi said:
You can't say they are two separate entities
Jesus said "My Father and I are one".
John 10:30;

They are one and so will we be one with them:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

Since we will be one with them according to Jesus' prayer, does that mean that God will be a plurality of many [a multiplicity] when we are all like him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

APAK said:
Christ our Lord and savior,

Since you also didn't capitalize the word Saviour in this statement, I will "capitalize" on that and bring to your attention Isaiah 43:11:

I, even I, am the LORD: and beside me there is no saviour.

amadeus · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace said:
P.S. ..I never would shout down gadar perets. He's an incredibly knowledgeable person...whether or not one agrees with him.

I do agree! But at times from what I have read I disagree with both you and him. But... that OK. If we are all really sincerely headed toward the Light, will God refuse any of us?

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

amadeus said:
I do agree! But at times from what I have read I disagree with both you and him. But... that OK. If we are all really sincerely headed toward the Light, will God refuse any of us?

Humanity generally doesn't head towards the light (John 3:19-21); but generally wants to believe that they are heading towards the light.

gadar perets · Sep 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Actually, John 5:18 was a statement made by the apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

It is a truthful Spirit inspired statement about what the Jews were thinking. It is not a confirmation that what they were thinking was true.

amadeus · Sep 18, 2018

gadar perets said:
The SOF reads, "Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity." We have already established that I am in this category.

The "Christian Apologetics Forum" is not designated as a "Christians only" forum. It was created so that Christians can give reasoned arguments or writings in justification of their beliefs to non-Christians. This is where I come in. I am asking for reasoned Scriptural arguments for your views, but all I get from you and a few others on this site is hateful rejection, judgmental comments, mockings, and a TOTAL lack of love for a perceived enemy. I, as non-Christian, am far more Christ-like than many of you who profess to be Christian, but are far from Christ-like. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Unfortunately this thing of quickly sitting in final judgment sometimes with name calling happens too often on this forum. I, for one, do not see you as a non-Christian at least not in the best sense [to me] of what the word, Christian, means [Christ-like]. People have redefined the word to fit their own set of doctrines [which effectively redefines Christ] ... presuming that since they are right, anyone else is not even a Christian.

God always looks at the heart rather than the doctrine. Those who hold the most accurate black and white definition of any doctrines without charity are still nothing in the eyes of God [ I Cor 13:2 ]

amadeus · Sep 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Humanity generally doesn't heads towards the light (John 3:19-21); but generally wants to believe that they are heading towards the light.

You say humanity, but humanity includes a lot of dead folk who are of course completely blind to the Light which is Jesus.

But, among fair weather believers many or even most don't really know who Jesus not identifying him with the Light at all. Some of the fruit is completely inedible.

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

gadar perets said:
It is a truthful Spirit inspired statement about what the Jews were thinking. It is not a confirmation that what they were thinking was true.

It doesn't say, "This is what the Jews were thinking." Read it carefully:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because (they thought) he not only broken the sabbath, but (they thought he) said also that God was his Father, (and they thought this meant that he was) making himself equal with God. (John 5:18).

Notice that you have to add what I put in parentheses in order to make it mean what you want it to say.

Now read it without the parentheses, very carefully:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18).

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

amadeus said:
Unfortunately this thing of quickly sitting in final judgment sometimes with name calling happens too often on this forum. I, for one, do not see you as a non-Christian at least not in the best sense [to me] of what the word, Christian, means [Christ-like]. People have redefined the word to fit their own set of doctrines [which effectively redefines Christ] ... presuming that since they are right, anyone else is not even a Christian.

God always looks at the heart rather than the doctrine. Those who hold the most accurate black and white definition of any doctrines without charity are still nothing in the eyes of God [ I Cor 13:2 ]

There are essential doctrines (such as the Deity of Christ, which is essential for salvation, John 8:24) and there are non-essential doctrines. If someone wants to divide over a non-essential, I do not say that they are not a Christian (although dividing over even non-essentials is not a good thing for the body). People that fall under the category of "anyone else" in your statement (in the case that I am right and they are wrong) does not define them as not being a Christian. Someone only qualifies as not a real Christian if they divide over essential doctrines.

Also, if the doctrinal definition of who Christ is, that defines in my mind what a Christian is, is accurate, then I am not redefining who Christ is: rather I am holding fast to, and requiring others to hold fast to, the truest definition of who He is.

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

amadeus said:
You say humanity, but humanity includes a lot of dead folk who are of course completely blind to the Light which is Jesus.

But, among fair weather believers many or even most don't really know who Jesus not identifying him with the Light at all. Some of the fruit is completely inedible.

Since I am not a connosseur (did I spell that right?) of Christian fruit, I am not sure that I know what you are talking about. The fruit that we bear is for Christ to enjoy and I for one am not so hungry that I actually try to eat fruit off of other people, since I am perfectly satisfied with the Bread of Life as I find it in the word of the Lord. As for my own bearing of good fruit...It is one of my daily prayers that I might not bear briers or thorns but that I might bear only good fruit a hundred-fold all year round. As God plants good seed in good soil and waters it, He will produce the kind of fruit that He wants when He wants it. Of course we are to be instant in season and out of season. Another prayer we should pray is that the Lord would break up the fallow ground of our hearts, so that He can produce in us honest and good hearts (Luke 8:15) which He identifies as good soil.

Also, if the fruit is rotten because it has been sitting long, don't consider that the seed within it is also not good.

amadeus · Sep 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
There are essential doctrines (such as the Deity of Christ, which is essential for salvation, John 8:24) and there are non-essential doctrines. If someone wants to divide over a non-essential, I do not say that they are not a Christian (although dividing over even non-essentials is not a good thing for the body). People that fall under the category of "anyone else" in your statement (in the case that I am right and they are wrong) does not define them as not being a Christian. Someone only qualifies as not a real Christian if they divide over essential doctrines.

Also, if the doctrinal definition of who Christ is, that defines in my mind what a Christian is, is accurate, then I am not redefining who Christ is: rather I am holding fast to, and requiring others to hold fast to, the truest definition of who He is.

And who is it that defines what the essentials of which you speak are? Is there a scripture where Jesus says these things are essential and if you don't take hold of them, you are lost? Perhaps these?

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. " Matt 22:37-40

Or according to this?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

If a person simply sincerely seeks those two things first, will not God add to him anything else really needed?

amadeus · Sep 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Since I am not a connosseur (did I spell that right?) of Christian fruit, I am not sure that I know what you are talking about. The fruit that we bear is for Christ to enjoy and I for one am not so hungry that I actually try to eat fruit off of other people, since I am perfectly satisfied with the Bread of Life as I find it in the word of the Lord. As for my own bearing of good fruit...It is one of my daily prayers that I might not bear briers or thorns but that I might bear only good fruit a hundred-fold all year round. As God plants good seed in good soil and waters it, He will produce the kind of fruit that He wants when He wants it. Of course we are to be instant in season and out of season. Another prayer we should pray is that the Lord would break up the fallow ground of our hearts, so that He can produce in us honest and good hearts (Luke 8:15) which He identifies as good soil.

Also, if the fruit is rotten because it has been sitting long, don't consider that the seed within it is also not good.

What kind of trees are we, good trees or corrupt trees?

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matt 7:17-20

What are these works of the flesh or what is the fruit of the Spirit?

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Gal 5:19-23

APAK · Sep 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Since you also didn't capitalize the word Saviour in this statement, I will "capitalize" on that and bring to your attention Isaiah 43:11:

I, even I, am the LORD: and beside me there is no saviour.

JBF: More verse that need examination?

I guess I can provide my view on any and all verses you are providing me that you believe says Jesus= God Almighty or vis a versa. I will still shoot everyone one of them down because you are forcing a Jesus puzzle piece in to a God Almighty position or vis a versa. I’ve been doing this exercise with these verses for years.

Well ok you are saying that Isaiah 43:11 means “Jesus = God”

Well you are wrong because it is appropriate that God is the origin or author of the plan of salvation for mankind, NOT Jesus Christ. Luke 1:47 also says a similar thing with the same meaning or intend.

I find nothing that says Jesus = God in either verse.

Why don’t you do yourself a favor and research the context first on every one of the single verses you throw out as your proof of the Trinity. It should be done for any understanding of any verse anyway, for any reason.

What does the Isaiah verse mean to you in words that conveys understanding? And then compare the Luke 1:47 verse with it. I’m sure you can convey some convincing meaning if you want to persuade someone.

And they why not at the same time compare all these verses where you might feel Jesus = God.

1 Timothy 1:1; 2:3; 4:10; Titus 1:3; 2:10; 3:4; Jude 25.

Note: There are men in the OT that God designated as saviours. It would be odd to call these men the same person as it would calling Jesus, God.

The result is the same.

Jesus is always called the savior because he is the agent or instrument of our salvation and God Almighty is not.

God is always called the savior because he is the author of our salvation and Jesus is not. It’s that simple.

Bless you,

APAK

gadar perets · Sep 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
It doesn't say, "This is what the Jews were thinking." Read it carefully:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because (they thought) he not only broken the sabbath, but (they thought he) said also that God was his Father, (and they thought this meant that he was) making himself equal with God. (John 5:18).

Notice that you have to add what I put in parentheses in order to make it mean what you want it to say.

Now read it without the parentheses, very carefully:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18).

I read it very carefully. The fact that it was an impossibility that Yeshua broke the Sabbath and sinned proves it was what they thought and not true. Our Saviour is sinless.

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

APAK said:
JBF: More verse that need examination?

I guess I can provide my view on any and all verses you are providing me that you believe says Jesus= God Almighty or vis a versa. I will still shoot everyone one of them down because you are forcing a Jesus puzzle piece in to a God Almighty position or vis a versa. I’ve been doing this exercise with these verses for years.

Well ok you are saying that Isaiah 43:11 means “Jesus = God”

Well you are wrong because it is appropriate that God is the origin or author of the plan of salvation for mankind, NOT Jesus Christ. Luke 1:47 also says a similar thing with the same meaning or intend.

I find nothing that says Jesus = God in either verse.

Why don’t you do yourself a favor and research the context first on every one of the single verses you throw out as your proof of the Trinity. It should be done for any understanding of any verse anyway, for any reason.

What does the Isaiah verse mean to you in words that conveys understanding? And then compare the Luke 1:47 verse with it. I’m sure you can convey some convincing meaning if you want to persuade someone.

And they why not at the same time compare all these verses where you might feel Jesus = God.

1 Timothy 1:1; 2:3; 4:10; Titus 1:3; 2:10; 3:4; Jude 25.

Note: There are men in the OT that God designated as saviours. It would be odd to call these men the same person as it would calling Jesus, God.

The result is the same.

Jesus is always called the savior because he is the agent or instrument of our salvation and God Almighty is not.

God is always called the savior because he is the author of our salvation and Jesus is not. It’s that simple.

Bless you,

APAK

That is your own carnal reasoning.

Love in Christ,

justbyfaith.

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

amadeus said:
What kind of trees are we, good trees or corrupt trees?

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matt 7:17-20

What are these works of the flesh or what is the fruit of the Spirit?

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Gal 5:19-23

If you are trying to convince me that I am a corrupt tree, you will in no wise do so; because I believe that God is a God who answers prayer.

Notice that one of the works of the flesh there in your quote is heresies.

Now what I am attempting to do here is fight heresy; so I think that such a thing would be of the Lord's Spirit, especially since we are commanded to do this in Jude 1:3-4.

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

gadar perets said:
I read it very carefully. The fact that it was an impossibility that Yeshua broke the Sabbath and sinned proves it was what they thought and not true. Our Saviour is sinless.

Jesus came as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec, not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life. Therefore He can break the sabbath and still be sinless; because He is immutable God; and He is also the Lord of the sabbath days. And also, when there was a change in the priesthood (from Levi to Melchizedec) there was by necessity also a change of the law. Therefore Jesus was not bound by the letter of the OT, but exemplified the spirit of what it was all about. In telling the lame man to carry His bed and walk, He violated the letter of the sabbath in what He taught; but He was teaching a higher principle about the elements of faith, which superseded a legalistic sabbath observance.

justbyfaith · Sep 18, 2018

amadeus said:
And who is it that defines what the essentials of which you speak are? Is there a scripture where Jesus says these things are essential and if you don't take hold of them, you are lost? Perhaps these?

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. " Matt 22:37-40

Or according to this?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

If a person simply sincerely seeks those two things first, will not God add to him anything else really needed?

That the Deity of Christ is a doctrine essential to salvation is shown clearly to anyone who will accept the testimony of this fact, in John 8:24.

Enoch111 · Sep 18, 2018

amadeus said:
God always looks at the heart rather than the doctrine.

Why don't we simply accept the fact that according to Scripture, God looks at both the heart and doctrine (Q) It helps no one to present one-sided beliefs.

Indeed, according to 2 Timothy 3:16,17, doctrine is the first item listed.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for (1) doctrine, for (2) reproof, for (3) correction, for (4) instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Sound doctrine (God s truth) is essential according to Scripture. Unfortunately, today we have more false teachings than every before, and Christians are not being grounded in the truth.

justbyfaith · Sep 19, 2018

Amen, @Enoch111.

Also of importance is 1 Timothy 4:15-16 and 2 Timothy 4:1-5.

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