The Issue of Calvinism.

farouk said:

It's interesting that James 1.18 says: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth".

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James 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Sure sounds like freewill me.

Firstfruits means there's more to come. How can there be more to come if God already predestined some for heaven and some for hell?

While he has foreknowledge of all who will be saved, it does not become fact until we repent.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

oh yes, I forgot...He is a gentleman who would not violate the will of the creature.
He offers a potential salvation...it does not save unless the sinner allows it to take effect..Oh wait. i am getting a posting message in a secret pray tongue...komo ki komi shiki, oh forsure got grot kimo kumo suma...did you get a word of interpretation

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This mockery is not worthy of a follower of Christ. Why is it that you Calvinists feel that it is your privilege to mock and belittle other Christians? Oh, I get it, you are like your master "theologian," John Calvin who was responsible for the execution and even torture of scores of people, as the virtual dictator of Geneva.

Lady Crosstalk said:

This mockery is not worthy of a follower of Christ. Why is it that you Calvinists feel that it is your privilege to mock and belittle other Christians? Oh, I get it, you are like your master "theologian," John Calvin who was responsible for the execution and even torture of scores of people, as the virtual dictator of Geneva.

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Interesting that in the famous case of Servetus, the Church of Rome had already burnt him in effigy; the Justinian Code then in place meant that either in the Protestant or Roman Catholic areas the end result would be the same, even as both sides were at doctrinal loggerheads; we might with hindsight regret it.

The issue is, rather, what does the Bible teach about grace, redemption, eternal security, etc.

farouk said:

Interesting that in the famous case of Servetus, the Church of Rome had already burnt him in effigy; the Justinian Code then in place meant that either in the Protestant or Roman Catholic areas the end result would be the same, even as both sides were at doctrinal loggerheads; we might with hindsight regret it.

The issue is, rather, what does the Bible teach about grace, redemption, eternal security, etc.

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Where in the New Testament does it say that the Lord is okay with us executing people over doctrinal differences? The RCC was wrong as well as John Calvin. Did you know that Calvin had a man tortured to death for daring to post a letter on Calvin's pulpit, outlining his grievances with Calvin? The Inquisitors of Rome would have approved of Calvin.

I just look at the fruit--the way Jesus taught us to judge a false prophet/teacher. Calvin was a false prophet. His errors were quite subtle, but there if you look for them.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Where in the New Testament does it say that the Lord is okay with us executing people over doctrinal differences? The RCC was wrong as well as John Calvin. Did you know that Calvin had a man tortured to death for daring to post a letter on Calvin's pulpit, outlining his grievances with Calvin? The Inquisitors of Rome would have approved of Calvin.

I just look at the fruit--the way Jesus taught us to judge a false prophet/teacher. Calvin was a false prophet. His errors were quite subtle, but there if you look for them.

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I take your point, yes.

But the idea that if only it hadn't been Calvin - in fact, it was the combination of the Little Council and the Great Council of Geneva that had titular responsibility for Servetus - in Geneva at the time, the Justinian Code would somehow have been interpreted differently in the case of Servetus: this would not be an accurate assumption.

Just to make clear, also: Servetus was not some kind of modern democrat with views which should be retrospectively deemed to be about peace, freedom and democracy for everyone. The historical record bears out that Servetus actually went to Geneva and demanded the death of Calvin. (So if this had happened as Servetus had wanted, all the Arminians and free-willers should logically come and talk fiction about supposedly poor, downtrodden Calvin in the way that they often talk fiction about Servetus.)

The issue again is what does the Bible say about redemption, eternal security, etc.? it's not about 16th century politics.

farouk said:

...Servetus was not some kind of modern democrat...

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It does not matter what the character, politics or religious preferences of Servetus were. The fact of the matter is that Christ DID NOT authorize any Christian to execute (murder) other Christians for any reason whatsoever. The Reformers (presumably saved by grace) had no business participating in any such thing. Period.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

what is perverted is their lack of trust in God to have purposed a perfect redemption in history

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What it all boils down to is this...unless they and God are in complete agreement on EVERYTHING, then He is not to be trusted.

Two of the most wicked things ever recorded, Joseph being betrayed by his brothers and the Christ’s mockery of a trial, and His subsequent crucifixion, were BOTH orchestrated by God. Yet, they don’t trust God enough with their will...ergo free will. They are worshipping a teraphim called free will.

justbyfaith said:

I agree that human responsibility is not to be left out of our biblical understanding.

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God is responsible for saving his people. Man is responsible for his sin.

CoreIssue said:

You make a lot of strange claims.

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If you gave Calvinism a fair trial you would find it is true to the bible for the most part.

farouk said:

I could probably harmonize all 5...

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Where I differ in point 4 is they make the Word the means of grace. I believe regeneration is the means of grace since we know some are saved who never hear the gospel. And being born again, these would believe upon ever hearing the word.

CoreIssue said:

I and a lot of others believe Calvinism is a cult.

Is it liable for a Muslim to speak against Christianity? A Christian to call a Mormon or JW a cult.

My one question that just continually goes answer is what motivation to try to convert people to Calvinism when you believe their destinations is already sealed?

Not one of you guys have given an answer.

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Because:

1.) We are told to by Jesus. Period. That in and of itself should be enough for anyone.
2.) Because we do not know who are and are not the chosen of God. Just because there is a chosen people doe not mean we can say who is and who is not one of the chosen. Therefore, we go out and evangelize. You see, your premise is that if the power of Evangelism is not [as per everything else] in your hands, then it can't be effective. I put the power of Evangelism in God's hands, where it belongs.

So, you continue to ask, "Why even bother talking to people, hmmmmmm? If there is no free will, then all is pointless. Not so. Because although I do not have a free will, I have a God with a Sovereign will. Read Isaiah 6:8-13 . Isaiah is told to preach, but that God will harden the people hearts until they are all wiped out and there is nothing left. He is telling Isaiah what will happen, and yet telling him to preach anyways.

So, after re-re-re-re-re using that same question here is your answer you claim we could not give.

Lady Crosstalk said:

No, I believe that He chose me, but I also believe that I could have turned away like the Rich Young Ruler.

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According to your narrative, there is a pivot point. That being either turning away from Jesus as the Rich Young Ruler at the time of the episode recorded in Matthew 19:16-24 or following Jesus. These are two mutually exclusive choices:
(1) turn away
(2) follow

You answered the inquiry with "No, I believe that He chose me". Based on this answer, you wrote "No" that you do not believe that you chose Jesus as well as you testifying that Jesus chose you.

Back to the pivot point, which by definition is a point of choice per your narrative, since you wrote "No, I believe that He chose me", that would mean that a power outside of you made the choice to follow Jesus.

Now, let us sit at the feet of the Master:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

"apart from Me you can do nothing"
(John 15:5)

"I know My own"
(John 10:14)

The testimony of the Apostle Peter, whom you quoted earlier:

"Lord, You know all things"
(John 21:17)

The Apostle John recorded:

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."
(John 6:70-71)

It is no small thing that the Lord Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus because that is knowledge in advance. Jesus knows all things.

The Lord Jesus knows His Own. He set no limitations as to time nor place.

What can a believer do apart from Jesus? Nothing.

Not only are people incapable of choosing the Lord Jesus, it is He Who chooses.

This is powerful love. This is compassion. That God would take dead creatures and breath in Life. Concerning Life, the Lord Jesus said:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"
(John 14:6)

Nicodemus seemed quite in a quandry (verse 4) with an exchange between him and the Lord Jesus Christ, yet Lord Jesus makes it clear in the Spirit of the Living God:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus appears to be trying to figure out how Nicodemus can work to achieve being born again, yet even in that moment Nicodemus defers to the Master. The Master explains that flesh begets flesh and the Spirit of God brings birth from God Almighty. Notice that in verse 8 that Lord Jesus says "you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going". That "you" is not the Spirit of God for the Spirit of God acts in accord with God (John 16:13), the God Who knows His own as well as knows all things. This is a wonderful act of redemption by God that defies fleshly understanding which explains Nicodemus' initial response in verse 4. God tells us that salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

justbyfaith said:

My question that I asked in the other thread, that has not been answered, is,

How is a man born again, if not through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross?

This has to do with the order of things in salvation; because it seems to me that Romans 5:1-2 and Ephesians 2:8-9 declare that faith comes first (before grace).

But assuming for a moment that grace comes before faith, What must I do to be saved (to obtain grace)?

This is an important question; because Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

How is a man born again if not through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross, in Calvinistic Theology?

If nobody will answer this question, then I consider that the discussion is over, and that I have won the "debate".

Because there is something inherent in the question, that if the right answer is given, Calvinistic theology falls apart.

However, I am open to hearing comments from either side on the statements that I made in the OP.

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Let me take a swing at it. Others might have a better answer though. I base my understanding on "limited atonement" which means Christ died only for those the Father arbitrarily chose from eternity.

Paul says; “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:9–10)

And; “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith [faithfulness],” (Galatians 5:22)

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23)

So in these passages, Christ first pays for our sins from eternity, based on that Justification, God brings us to life in the New Birth which turns into the baptism with the Holy Spirit through repentance (Acts 2:38). Upon being born again we can hear the gospel at a spiritual level and discern Christ at a spiritual level. And being baptized with the Holy Spirit we love God and righteousness and hate sin, eventually growing spiritually and overcoming all temptation through the means of escape God provides.

justbyfaith said:

I think I must be being ignored...

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If scripture won't free you up, nothing will.

Kermos said:

According to your narrative, there is a pivot point. That being either turning away from Jesus as the Rich Young Ruler at the time of the episode recorded in Matthew 19:16-24 or following Jesus. These are two mutually exclusive choices:
(1) turn away
(2) follow

You answered the inquiry with "No, I believe that He chose me". Based on this answer, you wrote "No" that you do not believe that you chose Jesus as well as you testifying that Jesus chose you.

Back to the pivot point, which by definition is a point of choice per your narrative, since you wrote "No, I believe that He chose me", that would mean that a power outside of you made the choice to follow Jesus.

Now, let us sit at the feet of the Master:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

"apart from Me you can do nothing"
(John 15:5)

"I know My own"
(John 10:14)

The testimony of the Apostle Peter, whom you quoted earlier:

"Lord, You know all things"
(John 21:17)

The Apostle John recorded:

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."
(John 6:70-71)

It is no small thing that the Lord Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus because that is knowledge in advance. Jesus knows all things.

The Lord Jesus knows His Own. He set no limitations as to time nor place.

What can a believer do apart from Jesus? Nothing.

Not only are people incapable of choosing the Lord Jesus, it is He Who chooses.

This is powerful love. This is compassion. That God would take dead creatures and breath in Life. Concerning Life, the Lord Jesus said:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"
(John 14:6)

Nicodemus seemed quite in a quandry (verse 4) with an exchange between him and the Lord Jesus Christ, yet Lord Jesus makes it clear in the Spirit of the Living God:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus appears to be trying to figure out how Nicodemus can work to achieve being born again, yet even in that moment Nicodemus defers to the Master. The Master explains that flesh begets flesh and the Spirit of God brings birth from God Almighty. Notice that in verse 8 that Lord Jesus says "you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going". That "you" is not the Spirit of God for the Spirit of God acts in accord with God (John 16:13), the God Who knows His own as well as knows all things. This is a wonderful act of redemption by God that defies fleshly understanding which explains Nicodemus' initial response in verse 4. God tells us that salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

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Well said!

justbyfaith said:

My question that I asked in the other thread, that has not been answered, is,

How is a man born again, if not through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross?
...snip

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The Lord Jesus indicates the source of faith. Both faith and belief are translated from the same Greek word in the New Testament manuscripts. With that being settled, here is an exchange containing the words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
(John 6:28-29)

There is the answer to where faith comes from as provided by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

A person can only be "born from above" (born again) by God.

Salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

justbyfaith said:

My question that I asked in the other thread, that has not been answered, is,

How is a man born again, if not through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross?

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We are saved by grace through faith. This does not mean that we do not have faith. What it does mean is that this faith is a gift from God. We are not trying to get rid of faith; we are changing where it comes from. Instead of coming from within the dead, unregenerate man, we believe God changes our hearts of stone and gives us hearts that have the ability to have faith, and that makes this faith a gift from God. We believe that we are saved fully by the work of the cross, and not that we were made able to save ourselves. Christ's work is finished; the debt for His people is paid in full, and nothing can add or subtract from that payment.

justbyfaith said:

This has to do with the order of things in salvation; because it seems to me that Romans 5:1-2 and Ephesians 2:8-9 declare that faith comes first (before grace).

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Romans 5:1-2 must be understood that Paul is talking to those who have already been saved by the grace of God. This 'access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Paul is speaking of God's grace through tribulation and trials; he says so himself in the next few verses. He is saying "Don't only be joyful only because you know God's grace is upon you during trouble, but also rejoice in the trials themselves because..." and he goes on to explain the benefits of going through trials. Ephesians 2:8-9 expressly, point blank says we are actually SAVED by grace through the tool that is faith, and if you read onwards you see that there is no indication he is talking of anything else other than salvation. We see elsewhere that men cannot generate faith in and of themselves:

Job 14:4
Jeremiah 13:23
Matthew 7:16-18
Matthew 13:33
John 6:44
John 6:65
Romans 11:35-36
1 Corinthians 2:14
1 Corinthians 4:7
2 Corinthians 3:5

And still elsewhere we see that faith and repentance are divine gifts and are wrought in our souls through the regenerating work of the Spirit

Acts 5:31
Acts 11:18
Acts 13:48
Ephesians 2:8-9
Philippians 1:29
2 Timothy 2:25-26
Romans 8:30
Galatians 1:15-16
John 3:27

And if you look into these verses, you will find that nowhere in the rest of the passage nor the rest of the Scriptures do they contradict; they are taken with context in mind and respected.

justbyfaith said:

But assuming for a moment that grace comes before faith, What must I do to be saved (to obtain grace)?

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If you are searching for God, earnestly searching, rest assured that HE is already doing something. If one asks "What must I do to be saved?", this is the work of the Holy Spirit on their minds and hearts, and the process has already begun; God has already begun to give them His grace! And the beautiful thing is, they can rest assured that Christ will complete this work; they need not fear being lost. When a person is searching, this is God changing their hearts, and one day [in God's own time], He will bring them to a place where they will ask "Sirs, What must I do to be saved?" and when they hear the blessed "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved." God's grace will effect them in such a way that instead of having the sinful eyes of men, they are brought to see the wondrous truth, and at that moment, God gifts them with faith, and they believe. When it comes from grace, there is no need to wring the hands and wonder what to do, because God will be the ultimate guide, and not only will he guide you after you have been saved, but He will also guide you to Himself through the wondrous power of His grace.

1 Corinthians 2:10-13
1 Peter 1:1-2
John 1:12-13
Titus 3:5
1 Peter 1:3
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:0

justbyfaith said:

This is an important question; because Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

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This is a very interesting question, because by the very language used we see it is not something we can do. Be born again.... did you birth yourself the first time? Did you cause yourself to be birthed? No, of course not! It sounds preposterous to say that one "birthed himself" and this is the very reason for using such language. Though it is true that you must be born again, this does not mean that you must be able to birth yourself. We cannot birth ourselves, and yet in order to enter the presence of God, we must be born again. This birth comes from the Holy Spirit, from God and God alone. He births us, gives us new life, and a new heart. He is the one that causes this new birth, by the amazing power of His grace.

John 1:12-13
John 3:3-8
1 Peter 1:3
1 Peter 1:23
1 John 5:4

justbyfaith said:

How is a man born again if not through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross, in Calvinistic Theology?

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A person is absolutely born again by faith in Jesus and His finished work on the Cross.... We just deny that any of this comes from man. As we have seen together above, it is all from God; from the start of our journey towards Him, to our new birth and regeneration, to our faith in Him, it all comes from God. This does not make it any less effective; if nothing else removing sinful man from the equation and substituting instead the perfect God of all makes this faith and new birth all the more potent! It is all from Him brother, and that is what makes it so powerful and amazing.

Isaiah 55:11
John 3:27
John 17:2
Romans 9:16
1 Corinthians 3:6-7
1 Corinthians 4:7
Philippians 2:12-13
James 1:18
1 John 5:20

Kermos said:

According to your narrative, there is a pivot point. That being either turning away from Jesus as the Rich Young Ruler at the time of the episode recorded in Matthew 19:16-24 or following Jesus. These are two mutually exclusive choices:
(1) turn away
(2) follow

You answered the inquiry with "No, I believe that He chose me". Based on this answer, you wrote "No" that you do not believe that you chose Jesus as well as you testifying that Jesus chose you.

Back to the pivot point, which by definition is a point of choice per your narrative, since you wrote "No, I believe that He chose me", that would mean that a power outside of you made the choice to follow Jesus.

Now, let us sit at the feet of the Master:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

"apart from Me you can do nothing"
(John 15:5)

"I know My own"
(John 10:14)

The testimony of the Apostle Peter, whom you quoted earlier:

"Lord, You know all things"
(John 21:17)

The Apostle John recorded:

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."
(John 6:70-71)

It is no small thing that the Lord Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus because that is knowledge in advance. Jesus knows all things.

The Lord Jesus knows His Own. He set no limitations as to time nor place.

What can a believer do apart from Jesus? Nothing.

Not only are people incapable of choosing the Lord Jesus, it is He Who chooses.

This is powerful love. This is compassion. That God would take dead creatures and breath in Life. Concerning Life, the Lord Jesus said:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"
(John 14:6)

Nicodemus seemed quite in a quandry (verse 4) with an exchange between him and the Lord Jesus Christ, yet Lord Jesus makes it clear in the Spirit of the Living God:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus appears to be trying to figure out how Nicodemus can work to achieve being born again, yet even in that moment Nicodemus defers to the Master. The Master explains that flesh begets flesh and the Spirit of God brings birth from God Almighty. Notice that in verse 8 that Lord Jesus says "you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going". That "you" is not the Spirit of God for the Spirit of God acts in accord with God (John 16:13), the God Who knows His own as well as knows all things. This is a wonderful act of redemption by God that defies fleshly understanding which explains Nicodemus' initial response in verse 4. God tells us that salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

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Agreed and Biblical.