It is a Satanic scheme imo, some people are being used & don't realize it because they are not truly saved, it's tares among the wheat, and they are the most disruptive within Christendom and attack the true believers.
Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.
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Naomi25
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Forgive me, but I think this is a case of making the text mean what you want it to mean. If it only meant "some of" those belonging to Christ, then it would have said "then at his coming, some that belong to Christ". Instead it says "at his coming, those who belong to him".
"Those" is the plural form of "that", and 'that' is a word we use to select or highlight something...like a group of people, for example. In this instance, the "group" of people being highlighted are "those who belong to Christ". Do you see any qualifiers there? That only "some" of those belonging to Christ will be gathered to him at that point? Because I don't. Nothing there about it. And it's all very well to say that Rev 20:4 is the 'partner verse' that reveals more to is, but again, that is only based on a certain (your) understanding of scripture, is it not, and therefore will have a certain spin placed upon it. If we are to take scripture at its word that when we believe in Christ we pass from death to life (John 5:24; Rom 6:13), then the idea of the first resurrection has already come to pass in Christ when our hearts are made new. Judgement and the second death have no hold upon us from that moment forward. As before, John 5:24 makes that a biblical fact. So, when considered in conjunction with 1 Cor 15 and Rev 20:4, what conclusions could we come to?
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:54
They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4b–6
John tells us that belief in Christ gives eternal life, an escape from judgement; a passing from death to life. Paul tells us that AT Christ's return the end has come - he will deliver "the Kingdom" to his Father, as he has then defeated all enemies, the last enemy to be defeated is death, which Paul goes on to tell us IS defeated by Christ's very return and his followers transformation from perishable to imperishable. It is that final action that allows Christ to "hand over" the Kingdom. This means, obviously, that at Christ's return, every other power and authority has already been defeated within Christ's Kingdom. Something to think about. Then we have John in Revelation...which actually links quite nicely with his gospel. The mention of 'life' and how having this 'life in Christ' will mean "not coming into judgement"...in Revelation is says 'the second death has no power" over us. We know that this "second death" is the lake of fire...the ultimate and eternal judgement. So...yeah...I would say that the two are most certainly connected.
Naomi25
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Hi 'friend of'. The thing about building doctrines...any doctrine...be it Dispensational or Amillennial, is that we pull different verses together that give us a better view of what we're trying to look at. So, sure....1 Thess 4:17 only mentions the 'dead in Christ'. I expect that's because Paul is only speaking to a Christian audience...we see that their concern was what had happened to those who have died before the return of the Lord returned. Paul comforts them by giving them the information they seek....if they have previously died but were "in the Lord", they will not be left behind...indeed, they shall preceed you!"
However...that is not the only verse in the bible that speaks of when the 'dead shall be raised'.
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:2
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15
So...we can see that the bible does talk about the "Just" and "unjust" being awoken and judged together. So, when taken with the other passages that tell us that the "believing dead" are raised at the same time at "those of us who are left and alive", me must conclude that all these things actually take place at the same time.
Also, in regards to the "First resurrection"....scripture quite clearly tells us that when we place our trust in Christ, we pass from death to life:
John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
If we "do not come into judgement", which we know to be the lake of fire, the second death, then is it not sensible to assume that the first resurrection is that momentous transaction that Christ performs when he takes our old, dead self and replaces it with new life?
Keraz
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I can forgive you and God will too, if you have made a genuine mistake.
But you seem to do anything to support your belief of a 'rapture', a removal from any nasty future events and that means a body change before the final Judgement after the Millennium.
Scripture does say that any person who believes in Jesus will have Eternal Life. This is our promise and when we receive that promise, is when ALL mankind will stand before God at the Great White throne Judgement. NOT before.
Also the Bible says several times that it is possible to have our names removed from the Book of Life, so the Promise can be revoked.
Your belief has people alive during the Millennium, who are in Eternal bodies. This idea contradicts all we are told about the 1000 year reign of Jesus and is quite illogical.
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life, do not come into Judgment, they are deemed worthy of Eternal life.
The GWT Judgment will be a quick and simple process and as it involves every person who has ever lived, it needs to be!
The first resurrection, Revelation 20:4, is plainly, indisputably, just those killed for their faith during the 1260 day reign of the Anti-Christ.
Keraz
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True believers? You mean those who believe they will be whisked to heaven, while the Jews face Tribulation?
When people like me show you from scripture, how wrong you are, your only recourse is to use accusations like 'tares' and we are 'disruptors'. Not smart and it rebounds to your disgrace.
Sorry, but interpretations are not based upon hermeneutics but on your beliefs and you can keep them.
Keraz
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Obviously all of Israel is far more than the few Messianic Jews. There may be about 20,000 of them now. Think there would be 12,000 virgin men among them to fulfil their quota? Revelation 7:5a
The truth of what the Prophetic Word tells us, may be 'bizarre' to you, but it is God's Plan for His faithful Christian people to gather and live in all of the holy Land. Jesus will be revealed to them, 2 Thess 1:10, He will stand on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1, He will divide the people into 12 groups and He will select 12,000 from each group to go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:18b-21
I have many other scriptures to prove this scenario. If you disagree with it, just an opinion, as you give above; is useless and actually shows the paucity of your beliefs.
Naomi25
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It's true, on either side, yours or mine, there needs to be a perspective shift. I think the question everyone must ask themselves is: what leaves the least amount of questions or holes? For me, when added all up, it's easy. Paul describes this 'twinkling of an eye' event as the one that happens when Christ returns...when he delievers "the Kingdom" over to his Father. The Kingdom he has been reigning over and has systematically destroyed every rule and authority...death being defeated upon his return, at that 'twinkling' event. So...for me, the reference to the Kingdom (the Millennium, or 1000 years if you will), the previous mention of having passed from death to life (the first resurrection) and the idea that death, which we know from Rev 20, is finally tossed into the lake of fire, and therefore cannot be present during an earthly Millennium, which Pre-millennialists claim it is....lands me solidly where I am. All these things take place AT Christ's return. And at his return, there is no more playing out of anything...any millennium where death and sin or rebellion will still play it's part. No...Christ's return sees all enemies defeated, the Kingdom handed over, and eternity ushered in.
Keraz
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Well; you surely have done nothing to change my beliefs.
I post much scripture, Bible prophesies that tell us what God has planned for is people in these end times. You don't believe them. that is your prerogative. But where is your 'hermeneutics' to prove your beliefs?
Keraz
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Please provide the verse where Paul tells us when his prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen at the Return of Jesus. Or make a retraction.
You keep saying the saving of Israel which you think are only Jew's,(another subject)what about the rest of the people in the world
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to
repentance."
Jew's need Christ just like all others,and just like all other's they won't be saved just because.
What you must understand is that AD was a type.That which has been shall happen again
When Christ feet hit the ground it's gonna be nothing like AD70 ,it's gonna be a TOTAL wipe out
Naomi25
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Ek...I fear I am once again in danger of just not getting you. Do you agree that the actual word used IN scripture is 'harpazo' or not...because if you look up the greek, that is indeed what is used. And, if you do recognize the use of 'harpazo' instead of 'rapture'....why do you insist that it cannot be a harpazo, but must, instead be an emotional rapture?
*scratching my head*
Are you suggesting, perhaps, that people's using of the word "rapture" in place of 'harpazo'..., as the english should probably be, 'snatching up', is just incorrect? I'll grant you that while one can and does certainly use 'rapture' as an emotional state, I believe that the reason this particular word was used in conjuction with the 'harpazo' is because in Latin the word rapio basically means the same thing: to snatch away, to seize. And, given that most of the English language is bastardized from various different words from other cultures like that, I'm not sure anyone gets to be too picky on where words originated from.
So, if you admit that scripture talks about a harpazo...a physical event, why mock those who speak about it and look forward to it?
I'm just calling it how I see it. The bible says "harpazo". We know that means a physical event, yeah? People call it "the Rapture", presumably because of the latin rapio, or that's what they say, and as it means the same as harpazo, that makes sense.Um wait they're being conflated in my mind? Sorry?
So...the only one in the picture going around saying that there is going to be NO physical event, that the bible is only speaking of an emotional state that we can find in Christ NOW...is you. Right? So....does that, or does that not mean that when the bible is saying "harpazo", you are reading it "emotional state of rapture"? In other words, conflating the two words into one idea. An idea that is indeed painted elsewhere in scripture, but is not in view in these verses, because the words used, "harpazo", is not an emotional state, but a physical one.
Did you get water up your nose?
But seriously....I think "you have now been raised with Christ", which speaks of regeneration, is still just a bit different than what is in view with a text that tells us quite clearly that we shall be 'physically snatched up to meet the Lord in the air' to receive new imperishable bodies. That's very specific, both time wise (at his return) and for us (up we go for a reason...to receive new imperishable bodies that can 'inherit the Kingdom' and put an end to death).
CoreIssue
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How can anybody even think they can get away with redefining harpazó
To mean anything but the snatched away without permission?
Yes it is a Greek word that in the Latin became rapture. But the meaning of the word remains the same.
And knowing the meaning ties in perfectly with being a thief in the night event.
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from a prim. root harp-
Definition
to seize, catch up, snatch away
NASB Translation
carry off (1), caught (4), snatch (2), snatched...away (1), snatches (1), snatches away (1), snatching (1), take...away...by force (1), take...by force (2).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 726: ἁρπάζω
ἁρπάζω; future ἁρπάσω (Veitch, under the word; cf. Rutherford, New Phryn., p. 407); 1 aorist ἥρπασα; passive, 1 aorist ἡρπασθην; 2 aorist ἡρπαγην (2 Corinthians 12:2, 4; Wis. 4:11; cf. Winers Grammar, 83 (80); (Buttmann, 54 (47); WH's Appendix, p. 170)); 2 future ἁρπαγήσομαι; ((Latinrapio; Curtius, § 331); from Homer down); to seize, carry off by force: τί (Matthew 12:29 not R G (see διαρπάζω)); John 10:12; to seize on, claim for oneself eagerly: τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ, Matthew 11:12 (Xenophon, an. 6, 5, 18, etc.); to snatch out or away: τί, Matthew 13:19; τί ἐκ χειρός τίνος, John 10:28f; τινα ἐκ πυρός, proverbial, to rescue from the danger of destruction, Jude 1:23 (Amos 4:11; Zechariah 3:2); τινα, to seize and carry off speedily, John 6:15; Acts 23:10; used of divine power transferring a person marvellously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39; passive, πρός τόν Θεόν, Revelation 12:5; followed by ἕως with the genitive of place, 2 Corinthians 12:2; εἰς τόν παράδεισον, 2 Corinthians 12:4; εἰς ἀέρα, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. (Compare: διαρπάζω, συναρπάζω.)
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
catch, seize, take by force. From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
To mean anything but the snatched away without permission?
Yes it is a Greek word that in the Latin became rapture. But the meaning of the word remains the same.
And knowing the meaning ties in perfectly with being a thief in the night event.
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from a prim. root harp-
Definition
to seize, catch up, snatch away
NASB Translation
carry off (1), caught (4), snatch (2), snatched...away (1), snatches (1), snatches away (1), snatching (1), take...away...by force (1), take...by force (2).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 726: ἁρπάζω
ἁρπάζω; future ἁρπάσω (Veitch, under the word; cf. Rutherford, New Phryn., p. 407); 1 aorist ἥρπασα; passive, 1 aorist ἡρπασθην; 2 aorist ἡρπαγην (2 Corinthians 12:2, 4; Wis. 4:11; cf. Winers Grammar, 83 (80); (Buttmann, 54 (47); WH's Appendix, p. 170)); 2 future ἁρπαγήσομαι; ((Latinrapio; Curtius, § 331); from Homer down); to seize, carry off by force: τί (Matthew 12:29 not R G (see διαρπάζω)); John 10:12; to seize on, claim for oneself eagerly: τήν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ, Matthew 11:12 (Xenophon, an. 6, 5, 18, etc.); to snatch out or away: τί, Matthew 13:19; τί ἐκ χειρός τίνος, John 10:28f; τινα ἐκ πυρός, proverbial, to rescue from the danger of destruction, Jude 1:23 (Amos 4:11; Zechariah 3:2); τινα, to seize and carry off speedily, John 6:15; Acts 23:10; used of divine power transferring a person marvellously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39; passive, πρός τόν Θεόν, Revelation 12:5; followed by ἕως with the genitive of place, 2 Corinthians 12:2; εἰς τόν παράδεισον, 2 Corinthians 12:4; εἰς ἀέρα, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. (Compare: διαρπάζω, συναρπάζω.)
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
catch, seize, take by force. From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
What the heck does truly saved mean?So you saying the Jew's in the nation state of Israel who don't believe in Christ are true believers?Do you see how that sounds
Who spread the Word throughout the world ?Can't be the Jew's you talking about because again,they don't believe in Christ
Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"
Who are the nations,Plural ?Let me answer it for you,it's the Christian nations,period!!!
When we study Genesis 48 we will see that each of his sons will become Patriarchs of their own tribes, which develop into nations and groupings of nations. This promise reaches far beyond what the church world today would have us believe; that the offspring of Jacob today is comprised in the tiny nation of Israel, with brother Judah, mixed with the Kenite population towering over them. Those who call themselves Jews, but are not, see Revelation 2:9, and 3:9, for the warning that Jesus told John to write to our end time generation.
The kings of England today are even crowned and anointed over the same pillar that Jacob anointed to God, to call an eternal remembrance to all those who sit on that throne, and the subjects that they rule over. [The people of republics are citizens, while people under a king or queen are subjects.] All royal thrones of the Christian nations are tied directly by blood to the throne of England, which is the direct linage to King David, Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. It is no accident that the Queen of England is Elizabeth II, for her lineage dictates it.
God's word, and his house still exist today, and the mere fact that a King or Queen sits on the throne is the reminder to all His children that He does keep his word, even though we allow ourselves to get lazy in his word, and run to Kenites for its interpretation, His word is truth, honest and fixed. When it seems that God's word is wrong, it is the person questioning the word that is in error. That is why we must use the right tools in getting the correct meaning for that Word.
The first duty of any King or Queen is to be the protector of the Faith, and that faith is God's Word. That is why we have the King James Bible today. He made the order for this translation, whereby each subject to his throne could have their own copy within their homes, that their lives could be guided by its words. From the year 1611 A.D. it has continued to be the guidepost in most Christian homes, and governments.
Again please tell me WHO are the nations?Jew's only make up Judah our brothers in Israel,those from the good basket of figs,do you not see scripture telling you that two baskets returned to form that nation state of Israel?
Would be wise for you to study chapter 35 of Gen!!!!
Naomi25
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So...what you're saying is that if a verse doesn't say "return" it's no good. Doesn't matter if is says "second coming", or "at his coming", or "he is near" (in regards to earth shattering events surrounding the world "seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory"), "Your Lord is coming", "You Lord will come", "At His coming", "Until the coming"....
A few interesting points come out of these things. We know "coming" means "arrival, approach or even advent". Which means these verses are talking of Christ's 'advent'....his 'second advent'. Where he came once, he will come again.
You suggest that Christ has not left us and that all we need to do is "return to him and he shall return to us". Which sounds great, and biblical and all. Except, well, you're ingoring large chunks of new revelation to arrive at that conclusion. Those verses, as I've pointed out previously, are found in the OT and are based on the old covenant promises...Israel had again turned her back on God and God has once again enacted the Covenant curses as was his right. But, as he is a loving God, he reminded his people: 'return to me, and I shall return to you'.
But...is that how things really work in the NT? Don't we have the new covenant in our relationship with God? Indeed we do. And while it is quite true that Jesus will never leave or forsake us, that promise is made through God himself (Hebrews 12:5) and fulfilled in the Holy Spirit, the member of the Trinity who is with us forever. The bible, however is quite clear on something: the Spirit will not come to dwell within us, unless Christ first leaves earth (John 16:7), which he very clearly did in Acts 1.
Thus, when we read all these verses of Christ "coming again" and how it is a very real, future expectation that will be accompanied by physical signs and disturbances in nature as well as physical changes for ourselves, it is not something we just read and think "huh....that must mean if I pray harder Jesus will show up in my life". No! We already have God in our lives! We have that promise and guarantee...that surety of the Spirit every moment of every day!
Finally...Peter gives us this: The "coming again" of Christ is scoffed at by unbelievers, but believers should be sure of it. That day will come and this world and all the heavens above us will pass away with a roar. This current world is moving towards something. It's not just about our everyday walk with Jesus. That is important, yes, but every Christian should look past that and see God's ultimate plan for his creation...all of creation.
knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” -2 Peter 3:3–4
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. -2 Peter 3:10–13
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
A key element to this is a misinterpretation of what is the day of the Lord.
It is not one single day. It begins at the pretrib rapture and ends after the destruction of the earth and those events. It lasted at least 1000 years.
VictoryinJesus
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Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up, snatch away
(Jude 1:23)... “snatching” them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Snatching 726 harpázō
Jude 1:23 Lexicon: save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
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