Convince me of Annihilationism

amadeus · May 15, 2019

marks said:
Death does not mean the cessation of existence, considering that Adam died the day he at the fruit, and he did not cease to exist.

But his existence was fundamentally changed, was it not?

Much love!

All he had left was a glimmer of hope. The fulfillment of that hope became a real possibility because of Jesus. In the eyes of God, men when born to a woman are effectively dead, but because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit they may have Hope. Without the Life that Jesus brought when their allotted time is completed they will have nothing at all.

marks · May 15, 2019

amadeus said:
All he had left was a glimmer of hope. The fulfillment of that hope became a real possibility because of Jesus. In the eyes of God, men when born to a woman are effectively dead, but because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit they may have Hope. Without the Life that Jesus brought when their allotted time is completed they will have nothing at all.

So if the first death isn't the cessation of existence, what then of the second death?

Much love!

justbyfaith · May 15, 2019

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

friend of · May 15, 2019

amadeus said:
This above says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever, but it says nothing about wicked men.

I just recall Matthew 25:41-45 saying that wicked men will go to that place prepared for the devil and his Angel's.

amadeus said:
When someone is “burned up” the smoke rises after the burned one is gone. He has no rest because he did not and does not have Jesus... but:

But the verse says that the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.

marks said:
Considering that Adam died the day he ate from the tree, what does death mean?

I've been thinking about this lately. I've come to the co clusion that we don't really have a correct understanding of Life and Death and what they truly mean in reality. We think we do, but we are living in a temporal realm. When we enter the eternal, we will truly know life and death as God does.

amadeus · May 15, 2019

marks said:
So if the first death isn't the cessation of existence, what then of the second death?

Much love!

The second death would or could be that which happens to person who obtained the Life which Jesus brought and then walked away from it. This one don't set well with believers in OSAS.

amadeus · May 15, 2019

friend of said:
I just recall Matthew 25:41-45 saying that wicked men will go to that place prepared for the devil and his Angel's.

The wicked may indeed go to that fire, as if they tried to go through the flaming sword guarding the way into the Garden of Eden trying to get to the Tree of Life... and their result is seen in the strong soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar who threw the three Hebrews into the fiery furnace. They died when they approached too close. The Hebrews on the other hand lost only the ropes which bound them when they entered the furnace. [Dan 3:19ff]

And whose fire was it or who was the Fire?

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

Consider the result for the soldiers versus the result for the Hebrews . Remember the bush Moses saw which was burning but not consumed!

But the verse says that the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.

The smoke of a natural fire continues upward long after the fuel has been complete consumed. The smoke would continue up after any torment was finished.

friend of · May 15, 2019

amadeus said:
The smoke of a natural fire continues upward long after the fuel has been complete consumed. The smoke would continue up after any torment was finished

Thank you for this sir.

justbyfaith · May 15, 2019

Eze 13:21, Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 13:22, Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Eze 13:23, Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Jay Ross · May 16, 2019

marks said:
Considering that Adam died the day he ate from the tree, what does death mean?

Much love!
mark

Not sure that this statement can be backed up from scripture.

Perhaps a little more study is required.

Shalom

justbyfaith · May 16, 2019

amadeus said:
The smoke of a natural fire continues upward long after the fuel has been complete consumed. The smoke would continue up after any torment was finished.

Except that it is the smoke of their torment that rises for ever and ever.

amadeus · May 16, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Except that it is the smoke of their torment that rises for ever and ever.

Yes, and when a person is burned at the stake, how long is it after natural life is gone that the smoke from the fire of their pain continues to rise?

bbyrd009 · May 16, 2019

friend of said:
Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

bc they have not cast those into the lake, and are still practicing those things
Imo "after" does not necessarily mean "in the future, after you have literally died" iow

friend of said:
As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies

if I testify of myself, my testimony is invalid
a man's enemies will be those of his own household

friend of said:
God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.

the Father judges no one, but has given all judgement to the Son

bbyrd009 · May 16, 2019

friend of said:
I want to believe in Annihilationism

we also want to believe that when someone assures us "stay here for the present" that a present will be forthcoming. Note the determination in that link to interpret Scripture like it was written the same way we think/talk? "This is that and that is this and there is no possible other way to even read it"
"So when you find that other Scripture later that says the exact opposite thing and the is no way that that can be read any other way either, just ignore it"

bbyrd009 · May 16, 2019

friend of said:
As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies

well consider me an enemy then, if you like.

friend of said:
May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.

even to those, huh, Father have mercy on me, and let this man bump into walls on his right side, is my prayer for him today, Father, please don't make him eat his children quite yet, ty and amen

"friend of" discoursing on enemies lol

Father, pls send this guy an "Enoch" to lecture him about professing himself wise
and do not ignore his obvious cries for help here Lord, ty

bbyrd009 · May 16, 2019

If you dig a pit for others, you end up in it yourself

marks · May 16, 2019

amadeus said:
The second death would or could be that which happens to person who obtained the Life which Jesus brought and then walked away from it. This one don't set well with believers in OSAS.

I was referring to Revelation 20, being cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death, like that.

If Adam died yet did not stop "being", and this is death, then because a person dies the second death, cast into the lake of fire, do they of necessity stop "being"?

Any thoughts?

Much love!

marks · May 16, 2019

Jay Ross said:
Not sure that this statement can be backed up from scripture.

Perhaps a little more study is required.

Shalom

It's actually a complex question.

But a simple reading will suffice. God told Adam the day he ate he'd die. Adam ate. Did God lie?

Much love!

charity · May 16, 2019

friend of said:
(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.

In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies Psalm 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.

'For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.'
(Psalm 37:10)

Hello @friend of,

Why would you not believe Psalm 37:10? - It is clearly expressed.

Man will be judged justly, by Him Who knows the secrets of men's hearts (Romans 2:16).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

CoreIssue · May 16, 2019

Annihilation means to cease to exist.

Physical death means your body stops functioning but your spirit goes on.

Spiritual death means separation from God. The spirit goes on but without the blessings or attention of God.

justbyfaith · May 16, 2019

amadeus said:
Yes, and when a person is burned at the stake, how long is it after natural life is gone that the smoke from the fire of their pain continues to rise?

As soon as they become unconscious of their pain, the smoke that rises is no longer of torment.

It is the soul that will be burning for all of eternity; which thing is immortal and will never lose consciousness.

Consider it as a warning and a deep motivation to be sure that you are correct on doctrines that matter to salvation; and that you choose to be an obedient Christian.

Convince me of Annihilationism

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