All the ELECT please stand up

Woe to deceived creatures who are without Jesus now and will be without Jesus on the last day because those creatures do not receive the Word of God (John 15:5, John 15:16, John 12:48)!

Prior posted 'woe to you free willers' (in this thread)

The Word of God, quoted in the following links, reveals freewill is treacherously rebellious and a damnable lie.

These posts of this thread remain true, accurate, legitimate, legal, and Godly:

- The Righteous Sovereignty Of God Post

- The Audience Of Lord Jesus For John 14:16 And John 15:16 Are All Dicsiples In All Time Post

- Matthias And Joseph In Exhibit 7 With The Lord Jesus And The Apostles "All the Time" Post

- The Logic Statement (IF/THEN) Eliminating Any Question Of The Audience For The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 Being All Disciples In All Time Post

- (1) The Twelve mentioned in Matthew 26:20 et. al. does not indicate "only" the twelve, (2) Lord Jesus indicates in John 17:20 that the content of John chapters 13-17 applies to all His disciples of all time, and (3) the "you" in John 14:16 and the "you" in John 15:16 refer to all the disciples of Jesus in all time because of the about 120 recorded in Acts 1:15 and Acts 2:1-4 receiving the Holy Spirit as well as the Gentiles at Cornelius' place recorded in Acts 10:44 receiving the Holy Spirit Post

- The Repentance Is From God Not Conjured Up In Man By Man Post

- The Biblical Definition of Disciple Includes More People Than The 12 Apostles Post

- The Audience, Salvation, And 'I chose you' Words of Lord Jesus In John 15:16 and John 15:19 Post

- The God Chooses/Elects Unto Salvation Post

- Lord Jesus Describes Part Of His Essence/Character - God Alone Chooses In Salvation Doctrine Post

- The Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17, and Joshua 24:15 Reveal The Sovereignty Of God In Man's Salvation Post

- Addendum to Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17 Post Explaining Absence Of Choose Conjugate As Well As IF/THEN Application In Genesis 1-3 Post

- 1 Timothy 2:4 Exposited Truthfully That The Work Is Not Of Man Rather The Work Is Of God Post

- Demonstrating "Whole World" Indicates Multiple Meanings Regarding People In First John Where Two Starkly Differing Uses Of "World" Occur (1 John 2:2 and 1 John 5:19) Post

- The Further Use Of "World" Exposited Truthfully Demonstrating That Belief/Faith In A Believer Is A Work of God - John 3:16 and John 6:29 and John 15:16 Post

- The Intrinsic Quality of Christ Jesus includes God Choosing People for Salvation Not Vice Versa Post

- The Blessed Assurance of True Godly Worship and Love Post

- The Blood of Christ Being The Wedding Garment in Matthew 22:1-14 Post

- Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17 Post

Free-Will Doctrinal Error Amplified By Faulty English Translations And Free-Willian Lust For Glory In Salvation Exposed:

+ "@Taken: Do Not Be Taken Away In Free-will Error By Faulty English Translations (Includes Faulty Change Covenant To Agreement Rebuttal) Post

+ @GodsGrace: List of Lies About History Post

+ @GodsGrace: Illegally Try To Shoehorn 'Choose' Into John 3:16 Post

+ @GodsGrace: The Majesty of God in Matthew 6:13 - God leads, God delivers; God's Power Forever, God's Glory Forever Post

+ @CNKW3: Beholding Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22 to see "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" NOT people purifying themselves RATHER God purifying people Post

+ @CNKW3: Vessels Of Mercy Obey God In God's Power Versus Vessels Of Destruction Deny God's Word In Their Own Sin Post

+ @CNKW3: Persists In Denial Of The Word Of God By CNKW3 Trying To Make The Apostle Peter Say Different Than Lord Jesus Post

+ @CNKW3: More About Phrases About God's Control Sandwiching The Free-will Illusion Phrase Of The English Mistranslations of 1 Peter 1:22 Post

+ @CNKW3: More About Verses About The Promise Of The Holy Spirit To All Believers In All Time Presented By Lord Jesus At The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 With The Implications Of Jesus Saying 'You' In John 15:16 Post

+ @CNKW3: More Proof That The Word 'IF' Does Not Denote Ability Post

+ @CNKW3: Obey Defined Is 'To Fulfill The Command' - There Is No 'Choice' In The Definition With Scriptural Support For 'Believe' Not 'Choose To Believe' Post

+ @Enoch111: Fails to Understand 'Receive' Definition While Fails To Understand Acts 2 While Failing To Understand John 3:16 Post

Returning to more of the Word of God, quoted in the following links, revealing freewill devotee's treachery and rebellion.

- God Blesses Us With Biblical History, And Free Willians/Pelagians/Armenians Fail To Understand History Post

- A Command Does Not Convey Ability To Carry Out The Command Post

- Squelching the Armenian Argument Of 'God specifically chooses to send some persons to hell' Post

- The Word of God Eliminates WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS Post

- The Apostle Peter Reiterates The Promise Of The Holy Spirit For All Believers In All Time (Acts 2:38-39 and Acts 2:18) That Lord Jesus Gave (John 15:26) Post

- All NT Letters Are To Believers So The Holy Spirit Gives Perspective In Hebrews 2:9 And "whosoever" Is Absent From Revelation 22:17

- We Believers Are Adopted In (Ephesians 1:5), Grafted In (Romans 11:17), Birthed In To The Kingdom Of God (John 3:3, John 3:5)

God saves by God's grace for God's glory! Praise the Lord Jesus!

CNKW3 said:

This response is actually ridiculous. Nowhere does the Bible say “faith is not physically provable”. Nowhere. To the contrary. The Bible commands that we “prove all things”

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You will note that I didn't say faith was "unprovable", I said Christianity was based upon faith, which was not physical. It was your OP, if you recall, which placed the requirement of physical proof upon a text before it could be believed.

2 Corinthians says...Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
What are we to examine if nothing is not physically provable? How can we “prove our own selves”?
When the Bible says.....be ready always to give a defense for the hope that is in you. What does that mean? How can one give a defense without verifiable evidence?
The Christian faith is an objective faith. Jesus was a real and verifiable human being that performed real and verifiable miracles, (unlike so called “Christians” today)
The Bible and it’s narrative has been proven over and over. Every time archaeology turns up something new it continues to verify what the Bible says.

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See my answer above. Perhaps apply your response here to yourself. Clearly things in scripture do not require physical proof, only solid biblical proof. Which I provided you. So.

Can someone prove they are one of the elect today?
Absolutely!
And it’s NOT, I REPEAT NOT because God decided to specifically choose you for some no good reason. It is because one has been obedient to the plan given by Christ. The plan that was in the mind of God before the world was created. But there is not one person on this board that does this. Everyone just rails against the idea that they have to prove anything. Typical of the 21st century culture.

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And...all those biblical texts...tossed out the window. "It's because one has been obedient to the plan given by Christ".
Hello? You are saying we are only 'elect' if we do x,y and z. "Do"....

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -Ephesians 2:8–9

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. -Galatians 2:16

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” -Galatians 3:11

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, -Titus 3:5

We are elect because he elected us. It was neither by OUR works to earn it or keep it. To claim to so goes against clear and repeated teaching of scripture.

Faith does come by hearing. And my faith comes from a book written by individuals who proved at every turn who they were and have been verified for thousands of years. Paul had to prove everywhere he went that he was a genuine apostle. But you people fuss when I ask for proof that you are one of the elect. You people are antithetical to Paul.

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Fuss? I'm not sure I'm fussing. You began a conversation about this. Might I add that you started a conversation about it that was rather 'stand-offish" ('come on people, prove it!). And when people have entered the conversation, and put forth bible verses that they see hold some weight on the subject, you think we're "fussing"? Might I suggest you stop calling us out on silly things that really aren't so and just stick to addressing the bible verses that have been presented to you? Because if you really want to be taken seriously, you need to address the 'prove it' part of your OP. We are attempting to 'prove it'...enter the conversation or not. But if it's 'not', don't expect people to take your blustering seriously.

You are posting a passage without supplying the context. What is Paul talking about in these verses? You posted vs 1. The context is about eternal life. Eternal life in the heavens cannot be verified here on earth. We have faith in eternal life based on who promised it. God through his verifiable prophets like Paul. We have faith of eternal life based on Jesus who was PROVEN to have been raised from the dead. This is how we....”walk by faith”. It is not some blind leap in the dark with a hope that wonders if it will or will not happen. The word hope in the Bible is a word of sure expectation. Look it up!
It means...Expectation of WHAT IS SURE. Why is it sure? Because it’s based on fact.

To be contd

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In this particular case, context didn't matter. It didn't matter if the thing we have faith in was eternal life, or the assurance of salvation or even the fact that Jesus truly rose from the grave. I quoted the verse, and many others, in order to show that the Christian life is full of faith, of taking things ON faith. In that particular verse, we take it on faith that there is an eternal life waiting for us.
The point being, my only reason in providing those verses was to show that saying "if it cannot be physically proven, then it cannot be proven at all" was a fallacious argument right from the beginning, as pretty much all Christian life rests on faith about something. And election, like faith, was never something to be 'physically' proven. If your starting point is there, it's no wonder you ended up in the wrong place.

CNKW3 said:

The correct translation of this is found in the KJV. We are justified by “the faith” of Christ. It is the system of faith, the one faith of Ephesians 4, it is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is the power of God unto salvation. It is NOT some mental ascent to the fact that Christ was the son of God.

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I fail to see your point, I'm sorry. Are you saying that just because our faith is, in itself, a gift from God, that we do not also play a part in acknowledging Christ as the Son of God come in flesh? Because, clearly we do. John tells us that anyone who denies that is in fact antichrist.
So, while I happily agree that faith does indeed come from God, I'm not sure exactly how that furthers this conversation or what your ultimate point above was. Again, I quoted that passage to show just how much faith is part of the Christian walk. And again, for this particular purpose, it matters not if the faith comes from us and our continued striving for holiness, or from God in his gifting of salvation and ongoing grace. The point, as I seem to have to repeatedly stress, was that faith, like election, cannot be physically proved, which you hung your OP on.

Again you post a passage and don’t provide the context. Paul was speaking to individuals who literally and verifiably had the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. This is the context of this passage. You don’t believe me then look 3 verses later...
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Who gave them the “Spirit”? Who also worked miracles among them? It was Paul. He gave them the Spirit through the laying on of hands. This is the context you are leaving out. We do not receive the Spirit that way today. That too is also verifiable and proven.

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And again. There's not point me repeating what I have in the last 5 sections, so...

No where does the Bible say this. I am saying that you personally cannot prove through the miraculous or some other means that God chose you over me. THAT IS NOT VERIFIABLE. You cannot prove that.

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You are asking people to prove a negative. "A ha! Prove to me, people, that you have been elected! Which you can't, because it can't physically be proven!"
'But excuse me sir, election is not something TO BE physically proven'
"Then I'm right! You can't prove it!"
'Ah, no, that's not what I said'
"Yes, it is!"

So, when I provided all the verses in my first post that linked elected people to traits of those who are justifed, had the knoweldge of truth, had faith (which we know is a gift of God) and were sealed with the Holy Spirit....you instead decided to go on a crusade about how the OTHER verses I posted were "out of context". Interesting. A dodge, perhaps?

No it’s not. Read gal 6:4; 2 Cor 13:5; 1 thes 5:21

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Well, talk about posting verses out of context!
All three passages talk about testing oneself and their work or ideas. Not a bad idea, right? But you use these passages in response when I asked if it were perhaps foolhardy to seek physical proof within a belief that relies so much upon faith. You say 'no, its not foolhardy to seek physical proof' and apply these verses. But these verses do NOT give you leave to demands physical proof. They give you leave to test your work and ideas. And how are we to do that? Through the Word of God, that's how. Like the Bereans before us, we come back to the Word and dig for answers.
Which is why I am astounded that you have not addressed the clear passages I first gave you on the topic. I am also a little amused at how much you've gone on about me 'taking verses out of context' and now have done the same yourself.

John commands that we are to test the spirits to see if they are from God. How are we to do that without evidence? Can’t be done. You say you are “from God”. Prove it! This is what the Bible commands.

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Oh golly.
You see, there's this book, and it's called the Bible. And inside it, God has given us all this information. That way when spirits show up we can see if what they are doing or saying line up with the word of God. If they don't, they are not OF God.
In fact, the Word of God is the ONLY real proof we have of anything. The Holy Spirit is very real, of course, but people are most fallible and are not reliable in how they percieve or recieve messages or the like. There are some very strange, mistaken or just evil people out there who claim to speak for the Holy Spirit. And the one solid, unarguable, irrefutable proof we have to beat those claims back with, is the unchanging Word of God.
That's our proof. That's all the proof we need.
Which I gave you, and you're still not addressing. Poor show.

Thomas didn’t believe the resurrection even after the body was gone and person after person verified that he was alive. That’s not me, is it you?
The key question here is....HOW DOES GOD JUSTIFY? It’s not by some mental belief in Christ alone. I’m about to prove that.

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Sigh. You know what else you're about to prove? Your total inability to engage in a conversation. You said you wanted proof. I gave you scriptures I felt gave proof for this. A person who honestly wanted some back and forth on the topic would have at least addressed them even if it was to disagree.
I'm starting to get the wafting smell of soapbox here.

Ok. Here we go. Very important part of the discussion..

Salvation is found “in Christ”. You just posted it above. The question is....
HOW DOES ONE GET “INTO CHRIST”? The Bible is very clear and plain on this question. Rom 6; Gal 3 tell us that we are “baptized into Christ”. Show me (prove to me) that we get “into Christ” some other way then through baptism?
I’ll be waiting for all the evidence you provide.
Also
To be justified means that God considers you sinless or righteous in his sight.
Justified means....just if I had not sinned. One is justified when there sins are removed. NOBDY can be “justified” and still be in their sins.
SO.......at what point is a person freed from sin? At what point are sins removed from the one being saved? This is provable and verifiable.
Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16; Rom 6:3,4,17,18; 1 Cor 6:11; Col 2:11-13.
You won’t answer this question honestly because you know what it will mean for your false doctrine. Feel free to show us allll the passges that teach us that our sins are removed at the point of mental acceptance of Christ and then some prayer of forgiveness.

To be contd

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Listen friend, I'm not really sure why I should give you my time if you won't give me yours. If you want me to actually engage in the conversation, go back to my original post, where I, in good faith addressed yours, and tell me what you think about the verses I posted about the elect and how they directly linked those people to characteristics of those you can hardly say are not 'saved'.

Naomi25 said:

I'm sorry, but this strikes me as a MOST ridiculous post. "It can't be proven physically". Man, you just described the Christian faith. Or, at least 90% of it. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). Faith is the founding principle of the Christian belief and it totally relies on things not physically provable.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” -Romans 1:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. -Romans 10:17

for we walk by faith, not by sight. -2 Corinthians 5:7

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. -Galatians 2:15–16

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:2


So...if our faith is so founded on something that is NOT physical, you saying you cannot accept something within our faith unless you can see it provable in that way, is rather laughable, is it not?
You say that the bible just has "generic" passages talking about election. Well, it's still Gods word, which still makes these 'generic' passages much more important than your insistance for something tangible. I seem to remember something like that coming from Thomas. What did he get labelled again? 'Doubting'? There is a very good reason our beliefs are based upon faith . Let's see if we can't make some rather logical conclusions with the passages God has provided us with.

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. -Romans 8:33

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began -Titus 1:1–2

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. -2 Timothy 2:10–11

Ok, so we have these 'generic' passages with 'election' in them. But they give us specifications of how we can know if we fall into this category. Romans 8:33 tells us that the elect are those whom God 'justifies'. Where else in scripture tells us how a person is justified?

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. -Romans 3:22–25

Titus 1:1-2 lines up election with 'faith' again, and we've seen above how much faith is a crucial part of Christian life. Without faith we are not saved. Titus 1:1-2 also tells us that the elect will have a knowledge of the truth. What does scripture say about this?

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, -Ephesians 1:13

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Titus also speaks of hope, another 'un'physical attribute of the Christian walk.

Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:2

and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. - Romans 5:5

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? - Romans 8:24

And, the last verse given that speaks of the 'elect' links it directly with a person gaining salvation. I'm not sure I have to dig through scripture to show what that means!

But the point, I hope, is clear. You may say that the passages that speak of election are generic and unclear, but that is not the case. Far from it. It is the simplest thing to do to follow the authors (God's) thoughts throughout his book in this instance.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. -Romans 8:29–30

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. -Romans 8:33

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Praise Lord Jesus! Such a well composed and scriptural response! I recommend Naomi25's post be read for it contains truth!

Naomi25 said:

This is, indeed, a weighty topic, and I by no means claim a familiarity with it that could see me argue the case more eloquantly than many scholars already have.
However, since the topic has arisen, I suppose I must do my level best to defend what I see as the biblical stance on the matter.

You say that predestination and election are for those 'already saved and will be perfected or glorified'...presumably in the age to come.
However, I don't see scripture saying that. It very clearly say that God 'chose us before the foundation of the world'. Now...how are we 'already saved' before the foundation of the world, if even the world wasn't around? Unless it was something that God ordained to be before it, you know, actually came to be.
If we keep reading Eph 1:

he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, -Ephesians 1:5

And then we see this six verses later:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, -Ephesians 1:11

So, we have God 'choosing us' before the world even began. And it was 'according to the counsel and purpose of his will'. Let me ask you something real quick before we go on: is there anything in that that gives the slightest hint that WE get a say or a part this?
Let's recap what we DO get: we get to be holy and without blame. We get adoption as sons and an inheritance. All amazing, incredible, blessed things. But not a single thing in that implies we get a choice. Why would I WANT a choice? Yes please, sign me up.


This thought has absolutely nothing to do with predesination or election or the verses at hand. Does God want us to grow in holiness and in being like his Son? Absolutely! And yes, the verses tell us that, but not only that. And that is not WHY God 'chose' us before the foundation of the world...in that, it is not why that language has been employed. The author could have just as easily have said "now that you have chosen to give you life fully to God, live in a manner worthy to him and spend your life becoming more Christ-like". He didn't. Instead, he gave us incredible information about God and a word called 'predestination'. Which ought to give us pause in and of itself. We all know about the word 'destiny'...the notion of something in which a higher or hidden power is believed to be able to control future events; of man or the world in general. Christians believe that to be God. We believe it quite strongly, that he has a set plan for man and this world and that nothing will deter him from bringing that good plan to fruition. So why, then, should the notion of 'predestination' be so difficult? The idea that this same God, all knowing, all powerful, all good, having a plan from eternity past?
Because that is what scripture tells us. The word used: προορίζω, means just that. "to predetermine, foreordain".



You know, it seems to me that you throw a lot of words and meanings around in order to try and convince someone (sorry, not me) that a word doesn't actually mean what it means.
In essence, you are attempting here to say that "Predestination" doesn't mean what it actually means (linguistically wise) because adoption in heaven is different from adoption on earth. Is that right?

Well, for my reply, please see above where 'predestination' is actually what it means. Because when we start throwing language out the loungechair...oh goodness, I meant window....you see my point.

My other reasons for seeing 'predestination' and election as biblical and exactly as the words suggest they are; is based upon other verses and considerations as well. Romans 9 is rather crucial when considering this topic, and I would say, hard to argue against: "who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to the moulder, 'why have you made me like this?'"

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:22–23

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” -John 6:37–40

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. -John 6:44

But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” -John 6:61–65

Also, Jesus mentions in his High Priestly Prayer about how God has 'given' him the people, out of the world, who were his. And then this:

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. -Acts 13:48

Finally, I see this in Romans, and its something I have seen firsthand. People...don't see, the beauty or simplicity of the gospel. It matters not how eloquent you are, or how rational and convincing a pastor is, or a scientist, or whomever you see put forth a fact of God; people who haven't had their eyes and heart opened by the Spirit of God cannot see.
It really comes down to human sinfulness; without God's grace and mercy, we're lost. If he hadn't chosen us all, at some point along the way (and why isn't before the foundation of the world an excellent time?), we'd all be lost, in a maze of our own making, trying to put a foolish crown upon our own head.

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God. -Romans 3:9b–11

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Praise the Lord Jesus! Naomi25, you composed a post full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Galatians 5:22-23)!

I found your example of "throwing language out the loungechair" to demonstrate the impact of language on the colloqialism of "throwing ... out the window" effective and extremely relevant for the importance of actaul language as relating to the definition of the word predesination!

Nonetheless, all the relevant and accurate presented scripture is wonderful! Ephesians 1:11, John 6:61, Acts 13:48, WOW, PRAISE GOD!

I highly recommend the reading of this post by Naomi25!

God bless you, Naomi25! I am very glad that God brought you here!

Those related to you in their theology claim none can resist God and are converted by His sovereign will. Yet here...

Kermos said:

and it is evil to oppose the Word of God, the Light, who says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day"

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You contradict that very concept. How can anyone reject God if God's will is totally sovereign? From the above quote that you offered, it is apparent to me that God offers people salvation, some of whom reject it.
Choosing to accept God's offer of mercy is not taking glory or credit for salvation. And you did not answer my challenge... Please explain the nature of love that enforces a positive response and is content with a coerced fidelity... Maybe even from fear? Think about your own relationship with your wife. How does your understanding of salvation and the love of God harmonise with the nature of love revealed in scripture which teaches that self sacrifice is the ultimate expression of love as displayed at Calvary? Not giving an option to refuse is totally inconsistent with the character of God.
Yes, God has chosen us. Even us Christians who have decided to follow Him and obey Him.

Kermos said:

Praise the Lord Jesus! Naomi25, you composed a post full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Galatians 5:22-23)!

I found your example of "throwing language out the loungechair" to demonstrate the impact of language on the colloqialism of "throwing ... out the window" effective and extremely relevant for the importance of actaul language as relating to the definition of the word predesination!

Nonetheless, all the relevant and accurate presented scripture is wonderful! Ephesians 1:11, John 6:61, Acts 13:48, WOW, PRAISE GOD!

I highly recommend the reading of this post by Naomi25!

God bless you, Naomi25! I am very glad that God brought you here!

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Well, what else can we do, but stand for what we ernestly believe the word of God teaches? I don't claim to be right on everything, maybe not even on most things. But I do feel scripture calls us to come to an understanding of what we read within it and then to stand fast on it and for it.
I am most pleased to enter into conversations with those who would provide what they feel to be opposing scriptures, but I do want to stress that it should always come back to that: what the scriptures say, not what we think it should say, or what we feel to be right or best. God is what is right or best or wisest, and he tells us of his stance and plan in scripture. It is not my, or indeed, our, place to call into question his wisdom or ability to do these things, just to give him glory over them. And yes, to strive to understand them as best we can.
Thank you for your encouragement, Kermos, it is at times hard to find on a site like this!

Sing to the LORD, all the earth; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.
Tell of His glory among the nations, His wonderful deeds among all the peoples.
For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; He also is to be feared above all gods.
For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.
Splendor and majesty are before Him, Strength and joy are in His place.
Ascribe to the LORD, O families of the peoples, Ascribe to the LORD glory and strength.
(1 Chronicles 16:23-28)

"Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day." (1 Chronicles 16:23)

Praise Christ Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords, Who Himself said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and He reserved salvation of man unto Himself!

The prideful people that claim to do the opposite of Lord Jesus' words do not know the fear of the LORD, so they do not taste the kind and tender love of God.

The arrogant people are teachers that oppose the words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), when He said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), yet those arrogant teachers knowing no fear of God tell people that they can choose Jesus.

God gives God's glory in the salvation of man with no one (Isaiah 42:8).

Praise God for Who God is! Praise God for God's lovingkindness! Praise God for God saves men by God's grace for God's glory!

Kermos said:

The arrogant people are teachers that oppose the words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), when He said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), yet those arrogant teachers knowing no fear of God tell people that they can choose Jesus.

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It is your arrogance that has decided that choosing Jesus means without His help.

CNKW3 said:

This is false. I can physically prove that I am one of the elect. I have believed the gospel and been obedient to it through repentance, confession and baptism in water for the remission of my sins. These are the elect. It is provable and verifiable through the word of God.
Nowhere is anybody described as “elect” who did nothing. The gospel of Jesus Christ, that we are accountable to, began to be preached in acts 2. Show me one person under the new covenant who was described as elect who did NOTHING to be one of the elect? Everybody is required to obey the gospel. That includes belief, repentance, confession, and baptism for forgiveness of sins. You want to have a discussion? Let’s start and see how far we get.
In Acts 2. The audience heard the preaching of Peter and they asked....what shall we do?
It’s obvious they believed the message. Peter told them to repent, be baptized for remission of sins.
2 questions.....
1. Are these individuals considered “elect”? Yes or no?
2. At what point did they become one of the elect? Before or after obedience?
I will say that if you choose “before”, please explain how a person can be one of the elect and still be in their sins.

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Your false theology has been proven wrong, as evidenced in the posts linking to profound scriptural proofs in the first post on this page 65.

If you feared God, you would have repented long ago, but instead you persist in your own wrong way.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

brakelite said:

Those related to you in their theology claim none can resist God and are converted by His sovereign will. Yet here...

You contradict that very concept. How can anyone reject God if God's will is totally sovereign? From the above quote that you offered, it is apparent to me that God offers people salvation, some of whom reject it.
Choosing to accept God's offer of mercy is not taking glory or credit for salvation. And you did not answer my challenge... Please explain the nature of love that enforces a positive response and is content with a coerced fidelity... Maybe even from fear? Think about your own relationship with your wife. How does your understanding of salvation and the love of God harmonise with the nature of love revealed in scripture which teaches that self sacrifice is the ultimate expression of love as displayed at Calvary? Not giving an option to refuse is totally inconsistent with the character of God.
Yes, God has chosen us. Even us Christians who have decided to follow Him and obey Him.

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You invent more senseless musing of man, brakelite! You do not cite scripture because you HAVE NO SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR FALSE THEOLOGY!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

brakelite said:

It is your arrogance that has decided that choosing Jesus means without His help.

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More of your senseless musing of man, brakelite! You do not cite scripture because you HAVE NO SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR FALSE THEOLOGY! You try to twist in your imagined ability to choose Lord Jesus right in the face of when He said "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16). Apart from Jesus no one can believe in Jesus (John 15:5, John 6:29)! Apart from the Spirit of God, a person can not see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3). It's all God, brakelite, and it is none of man!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

Naomi25 said:

Well, what else can we do, but stand for what we ernestly believe the word of God teaches? I don't claim to be right on everything, maybe not even on most things. But I do feel scripture calls us to come to an understanding of what we read within it and then to stand fast on it and for it.
I am most pleased to enter into conversations with those who would provide what they feel to be opposing scriptures, but I do want to stress that it should always come back to that: what the scriptures say, not what we think it should say, or what we feel to be right or best. God is what is right or best or wisest, and he tells us of his stance and plan in scripture. It is not my, or indeed, our, place to call into question his wisdom or ability to do these things, just to give him glory over them. And yes, to strive to understand them as best we can.
Thank you for your encouragement, Kermos, it is at times hard to find on a site like this!

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I noticed that you stress scripture not opinion, which is, by God's mercy, the same as God has me doing.

Indeed, there is strong popularity in "choosing" God. There are many marching on the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13) in their denial of the exclusive Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) in man's salvation (John 15:16). The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10), and Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

May Lord Jesus reveal His one way of life (John 14:6) in Him to those who do not receive His words (Matthew 12:48), including His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)!

CNKW3 said:

What you just said means absolutely nothing. Keep repeating Jn 15. It’s all you got.

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The Apostle Matthew wrote "a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, 'This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!'" (Matthew 17:5).

CNKW3 says that Lord Jesus' words mean nothing, yet...

@CNKW3 @Enoch111 @Earburner @brakelite , I am letting you know of imminent scripture rich postings that I intend to publish that prove man does nothing yet on the other hand the wonderful Word of God saves men by God's grace for God's glory.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

Free-willian (a.k.a. Armenian or Pelagian) false theological basis of human volition toward God (a.k.a. works righteousness) contradicts the Word of God, and this truth is revealed within the Word of God in this post!

GOD SEEKS AND SAVES MAN AND WOMAN: The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1), Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I sought Jesus and I chose Jesus" free-willians when He says "the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10) and "give His life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28) thus He owns us believers with His words of "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me" (John 10:14) thus this is God's grace bringing us into joyous union with our Savior (1 Peter 1:3) for we can do nothing apart from our Lord Jesus (John 15:5) which this post comprehensively illuniates that the Living God - not dead men and women - that the Living God sovereignly brings the children of God to Life by God's grace for God's glory - salvation is by God alone!

GOD PURIFIES SOULS: The Apostle Peter disagrees with "my obedience makes me right with Jesus" free-willians when he wrote "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit" in "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22) thus we believers who believe through Lord Jesus into God are obedient through the Spirit of God. Everyone starts out dead in sins incapable of pleasing God (Ehpesians 2:1, Hebrews 11:6), but God has makes us believers alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5)

GOD CAUSES WE BELIEVERS TO BE BORN AGAIN - NOT SOME PERSON SELF-CONCEIVING: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I can see the King of the kingdom of God" free-willians when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), A PERSON CANNOT CAUSE HIM OR HERSELF TO BE BORN (Nicodemus asked Jesus about this in John 3:4).

GOD CAUSES WE BELIEVERS TO BE BORN AGAIN: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I chose Jesus then was born again" free-willians when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8). HERE LORD JESUS DECISIVELY STATES THE REQUIREMENT TO BE "BORN OF THE SPIRIT"!

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Paul disagrees with "I put my faith in Jesus" free-willians when he wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul expounded these crucial points that we believers are saved by God's grace through faith:
1) faith/belief is the gift of God
2) faith/belief is not conjured up in we believers
3) faith/belief is not a work of man
4) the grace of God saves us believers
5) no one may boast, for example all the free-will claims "I accepted Jesus", "I chose Jesus", and "I opened my heart to Jesus" are boasting in a work of man
6) we believers are created in Lord Jesus for good works in other words we believers are born again by the Holy Spirit thus we vessels of the Spirit of God produce righteous fruit.

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Peter disagrees with "Jesus must give me eternal life because of my choice of Him" free-willians when he wrote "you who through Him are believers in God" (1 Peter 1:20-21) thus only we believers who believe through Lord Jesus into God do so in Spirit and Truth (John 4:23, John 14:6)!

GOD IMPARTS BELIEF: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I chose to believe in Jesus" free-willians when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Belief and faith are synonyms. Lord Jesus defines believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent as the "work of God" - BEHOLD, NOT THE WORK OF MAN - NO - TRULY, A PERSON BELIEVING IS THE WORK OF GOD, thus "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16 - word for word Greek to English is "that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian"). The one believing whom Jesus refers to in John 3:16 is the one who receives the "work of God" to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

GOD CAUSES MAN TO COME TO CHRIST: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I came to Jesus on my own initiative" free-willians when He says:
- JESUS' WORDS "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)
- JESUS' WORDS "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28)
- JESUS' WORDS "when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will lead you into all the truth" (John 16:13)
- JESUS' WORDS "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" (John 6:37)
- JESUS' WORDS "I am the way, and the truth" (John 14:6)
Crucial Points:
1) Jesus is the truth (John 3:21, John 16:13, John 14:6).
2) Lord Jesus uses the words "his deeds" in the plural referring back to each deed He mentioned thus both "coming" to Jesus is a deed as well as "practicing the truth" is a deed (John 3:21).
3) Both "practices the truth" and "comes to the Light" are deeds that "may be manifested as having been wrought in God - BEHOLD, NOT WROUGHT IN MAN - NO - TRULY, WROUGHT IN GOD (John 3:21)!
4) Lord Jesus commands "come to Me", and only born in the Spirit of God believers truthfully act on this command of our Lord Jesus on the other hand the unconverted hate Jesus thus the unconverted are incapable of coming to Jesus (Matthew 11:28, John 3:3, John 3:5, John 3:19, John 3:20)!
5) We believers born by the Spirit of God (John 3:3, John 3:5) are given by God the Father to the Son of God thus we come to Jesus in the Spirit of God (John 16:13, John 6:37, John 3:21)).
6) Thus these deeds, these works, these fruits are good (Matthew 7:17).
The Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) said that we believers can do nothing apart from Himself" (John 15:5); therefore, coming to Christ is done by the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) - not man's power - coming to Christ is done in the Power of God!

Continued in this post