Word Study

Steve Owen · Nov 27, 2019

marks said:
.

That's correct. They would not be forgiven, they would not be in fellowship, they would be in the darkness and not the light, they would not be cleansed. Is this a saved person? No. They are liars.

Much love!

No, no, no, no, no! Would they be saved people if they were to walk in darkness? No. But the word if indicates that at the time of writing there was no evidence that they were doing anything of the sort.

Galatians 1:8. 'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.'
So is Paul accursed? Are any angels from heaven accursed? No, of course not!
Would they be if they preached another Gospel? Yes they would. Now, transfer that logic back to 1 John 1.

Steve Owen · Nov 27, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I don't either, and 1 John 1:8 doesn't contradict 1 John 3:9, because one is a Christian, and the other isn't yet.

So John wasn't a Christian at that point then?

Jennifer · Nov 27, 2019

Nondenom40 said:
Okay, so it sounds like you believe we still sin after being born again? Whats the problem?

When we become born again we become anew and one with Jesus but when the holy spirit invites us and we accept Jesus into our hearts he works inside us through the spirit, knowingky knowing we are connected with him now having receive the holy spirit to become born again in him. We may continue to sin but when we put on Christ as he clothes and dresses us we begin becoming be anew in him being made right in him not through our own concious and works but Jesus own righteousness he puts on ourselves. Even if we miss the mark mnd stumble from time to time, now that we are accepted as a child of God, he doesn't forsake us or anything when we sin, he only corrects us, we don't lose our salvation, he just dicispline us back on the right path knowing we are being made right in him until the completion of that day...being in Jesus doesn't mean we won't stumble or sin again, it just means it will be easier for us not to sin knowing we have the spirit and he is with us now...that's the point of being made anew, it's rewarding but it's not something that happens overnight..

farouk · Nov 27, 2019

Jennifer said:
When we become born again we become anew and one with Jesus but when the holy spirit invites us and we accept Jesus into our hearts he works inside us through the spirit, knowingky knowing we are connected with him now having receive the holy spirit to become born again in him. We may continue to sin but when we put on Christ as he clothes and dresses us we begin becoming be anew in him being made right in him not through our own concious and works but Jesus own righteousness he puts on ourselves. Even if we miss the mark mnd stumble from time to time, now that we are accepted as a child of God, he doesn't forsake us or anything when we sin, he only corrects us, we don't lose our salvation, he just dicispline us back on the right path knowing we are being made right in him until the completion of that day...being in Jesus doesn't mean we won't stumble or sin again, it just means it will be easier for us not to sin knowing we have the spirit and he is with us now...that's the point of being made anew, it's rewarding but it's not something that happens overnight..

John's First Epistle makes it clear that the true believer, walking habitually in the light, does not lose his or her salvation.

Jennifer · Nov 27, 2019

farouk said:
John's First Epistle makes it clear that the true believer, walking habitually in the light, does not lose his or her salvation.

Well Jesus says he would lose none of his so why would he take away a person's salvation period?

CharismaticLady · Nov 27, 2019

Steve Owen said:
So John wasn't a Christian at that point then?

Zoom, right over your head

Nondenom40 · Nov 27, 2019

Jennifer said:
When we become born again we become anew and one with Jesus but when the holy spirit invites us and we accept Jesus into our hearts he works inside us through the spirit, knowingky knowing we are connected with him now having receive the holy spirit to become born again in him. We may continue to sin but when we put on Christ as he clothes and dresses us we begin becoming be anew in him being made right in him not through our own concious and works but Jesus own righteousness he puts on ourselves. Even if we miss the mark mnd stumble from time to time, now that we are accepted as a child of God, he doesn't forsake us or anything when we sin, he only corrects us, we don't lose our salvation, he just dicispline us back on the right path knowing we are being made right in him until the completion of that day...being in Jesus doesn't mean we won't stumble or sin again, it just means it will be easier for us not to sin knowing we have the spirit and he is with us now...that's the point of being made anew, it's rewarding but it's not something that happens overnight..

I agree but the person I was responding to thinks they never sin. Then comes back later to say well ya but not willfully. Which is also not true. Most sin is willful.

Episkopos · Nov 27, 2019

Jennifer said:
When we become born again we become anew and one with Jesus but when the holy spirit invites us and we accept Jesus into our hearts he works inside us through the spirit, knowingky knowing we are connected with him now having receive the holy spirit to become born again in him. We may continue to sin but when we put on Christ as he clothes and dresses us we begin becoming be anew in him being made right in him not through our own concious and works but Jesus own righteousness he puts on ourselves. Even if we miss the mark mnd stumble from time to time, now that we are accepted as a child of God, he doesn't forsake us or anything when we sin, he only corrects us, we don't lose our salvation, he just dicispline us back on the right path knowing we are being made right in him until the completion of that day...being in Jesus doesn't mean we won't stumble or sin again, it just means it will be easier for us not to sin knowing we have the spirit and he is with us now...that's the point of being made anew, it's rewarding but it's not something that happens overnight..

There is a lot that is true in this post except for this qualified statement and the common error of saying that we sin by/in the righteousness of Jesus Christ ...which is a grave error. Jesus doesn't sin...because He is not a minister of sin. God's righteousness is NOT as filthy rags...but ours is.

Gal. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18. For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

In Christ is no sin. So the race of faith is to enter INTO Christ who knew no sin. He is our refuge from sin and this world. The high calling in Christ is to remain in Him and learn to walk in Him so that Christ might be formed in us by character and faith.

But we don't lose our belonging to God (what is called "salvation" by most people) when we sin. As long as we remain humble and penitent in our attitude...God will forgive us. God wants to win us to Himself by His goodness.

But God is also very severe in His holiness. If you claim to have God's righteousness and sin...that is very much iniquity in God's eyes. God doesn't sin...and no one sins in His presence. One must go out from His presence...be enticed AWAY from Him in order to sin. So then no one sins IN Christ. That is the lie of this age.

When a person takes on the righteousness of God then that person is holy as God is holy. No sin is possible...unless a person takes up their life to follow the world through enticement by the physical senses.

marks · Nov 27, 2019

.

Steve Owen said:
No, no, no, no, no! Would they be saved people if they were to walk in darkness? No. But the word if indicates that at the time of writing there was no evidence that they were doing anything of the sort.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John is given a series of truths.

If we, that is any of "us", say we have fellowship with God, but in reality we, whomever we are, in reality, we are walking in darkness, and are liars, and don't actually do the truth.

This is a simple truth and simply expresses.

I can, we can, we say many things. But we are liars if we walk in darkness, while claiming to have fellowship with God. We don't have fellowship with God.

Contrarywise, IF we are walking in the light, then we actually do have fellowship one with another. And in this reality, the blood of Jesus is cleansing us from all sin.

These are simple declarative statements that explain that whatever we may declare about ourselves, there is a reality quite separate from our words. We are either actually in darkness, or actually in light.

I don't believe John is writing in hypotheticals here, as if he were saying,

(not a quote) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and 'were we then to' walk in darkness, we 'would be' lying, and 'would not be doing' the truth:

Instead he's laying out a foundation. We can say we have fellowship with God, but if we walk in darkness, that's just a lie. We're not doing truth.

We can say we haven't sinned. We can say we don't sin. That we have no sin. But a life of darkness puts the lie to these words.

But if we confess . . . But if we say the same thing as God says, if we confess our sins, Then, God is faithful, Just, to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And then, the words, I have fellowship with God, are true.

Much love!

farouk · Nov 27, 2019

@marks John's First Epistle is so searching...

marks · Nov 27, 2019

farouk said:
@marks John's First Epistle is so searching...

In what way do you mean?

farouk · Nov 27, 2019

marks said:
In what way do you mean?

In a general sense; I wasn't commenting on anything more specific. I saw your quotes from the Epistle.

Jennifer · Nov 27, 2019

Episkopos said:
There is a lot that is true in this post except for this qualified statement and the common error of saying that we sin by/in the righteousness of Jesus Christ ...which is a grave error. Jesus doesn't sin...because He is not a minister of sin. God's righteousness is NOT as filthy rags...but ours is.

Gal. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18. For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

In Christ is no sin. So the race of faith is to enter INTO Christ who knew no sin. He is our refuge from sin and this world. The high calling in Christ is to remain in Him and learn to walk in Him so that Christ might be formed in us by character and faith.

But we don't lose our belonging to God (what is called "salvation" by most people) when we sin. As long as we remain humble and penitent in our attitude...God will forgive us. God wants to win us to Himself by His goodness.

But God is also very severe in His holiness. If you claim to have God's righteousness and sin...that is very much iniquity in God's eyes. God doesn't sin...and no one sins in His presence. One must go out from His presence...be enticed AWAY from Him in order to sin. So then no one sins IN Christ. That is the lie of this age.

When a person takes on the righteousness of God then that person is holy as God is holy. No sin is possible...unless a person takes up their life to follow the world through enticement by the physical senses.

And you are badly mistaken or a liar because that's not what I meant there, the only error you see there is my bad writing/english and grammar....

Steve Owen · Nov 27, 2019

marks said:
These are simple declarative statements that explain that whatever we may declare about ourselves, there is a reality quite separate from our words. We are either actually in darkness, or actually in light.

I don't believe John is writing in hypotheticals here, as if he were saying,

By definition they are not declarative statements; they are conditional statements because they begin with 'if.' And it would be legitimate to regard them as a series of hypotheses: "if this, then that." "if something else, then not that." By saying "if this....." he is not saying that 'this' is the case, it's a hypothesis. But if 'this' is the case, then 'that' is also the case.

I'm not going to argue any more. I will set out an exposition of the verses as and when I have time, and then finish

marks · Nov 27, 2019

Steve Owen said:
By definition they are not declarative statements; they are conditional statements because they begin with 'if.' And it would be legitimate to regard them as a series of hypotheses: "if this, then that." "if something else, then not that." By saying "if this....." he is not saying that 'this' is the case, it's a hypothesis. But if 'this' is the case, then 'that' is also the case.

I'm not going to argue any more. I will set out an exposition of the verses as and when I have time, and then finish

They set out a conditional class, but they are not subjunctive statements,

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

If this is true, then that also is true. If this is the case, then this is what is true.

Not, If you should be doing this, then that will happen.

As a hypothesis, this would be a proposed explanation subject to being proven. I don't see it that way. This is a simple statement of fact.

If you say you are rich but you are in intractable debt, you lie, and don't actually have wealth. Same sort of statement.

Much love!

Steve Owen · Nov 27, 2019

marks said:
They set out a conditional class, but they are not subjunctive statements,

I'm sorry to keep contradicting you, but they actually are subjunctive statements. John uses the Subjunctive mood. Check it out. See my post #173.

Episkopos · Nov 27, 2019

Jennifer said:
And you are badly mistaken or a liar because that's not what I meant there, the only error you see there is my bad writing/english and grammar....

People say they are in Christ and still sin. Are you saying that you agree that in Christ is no sin and that they who are in Christ cannot sin?

Of course not...

It is too biblical to be accepted. Too much based on God rather than human capacity. People tend to put their faith in human capacity...in this life...and hope for God's capacities after death. But who can believe God and His capacities while yet still alive in the flesh? History is waiting.

So then the only other possibility is that people still sin when they are in Christ...which is not possible. But who is able to be honest in the 21st century!

marks · Nov 27, 2019

Steve Owen said:
I'm sorry to keep contradicting you, but they actually are subjunctive statements. John uses the Subjunctive mood. Check it out. See my post #173.

No need to apologize, I apologize to you! You are correct, I was mistaken.

Roberson shows it this way . . .

1 John 1:6
If we say (ean eipōmen). Condition of third class with ean and second aorist (ingressive, up and say) active subjunctive. Claiming fellowship with God (see 1Jn_1:3) involves walking in the light with God (1Jn_1:5) and not in the darkness (skotos here, but skotia in Joh_1:5). See 1Jn_2:11 also for en tēi skotiāi peripateō.
We lie (pseudometha). Present middle indicative, plain Greek and plain English like that about the devil in Joh_8:44.
Do not the truth (ou poioumen tēn alētheian). Negative statement of the positive pseudometha as in Joh_8:44. See Joh_3:21 for “doing the truth,” like Neh_9:33.

"If we say" is subjunctive.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

You had written:

The suggestion here, because of the subjunctive mood, is that John and his readers are not walking in darkness, and that therefore they are saved. But if they were to commence walking in darkness, not just briefly, but consistently, they would be calling their salvation into question unless the Lord led them to repentance. It is possible for one of the Lord's sheep to become a lost sheep, and to find itself walking in spiritual darkness for a period.

I still don't think this accurately shows the meaning of the verse.

We lie, present middle indicative. If I should be saying I have fellowship with God, and I should be walking in darkness, I am lying, and my claim of fellowship with God is false.

Not, if in the future, I should say I have fellowship with God but walk in darkness, I would then be lying. The lie is now.

You had also written:

Steve Owen said:
But if they were to commence walking in darkness, not just briefly, but consistently, they would be calling their salvation into question unless the Lord led them to repentance.

Do you mean that they had never actually been saved?

Much love!

Steve Owen · Nov 28, 2019

Steve Owen said:
The suggestion here, because of the subjunctive mood, is that John and his readers are not walking in darkness, and that therefore they are saved. But if they were to commence walking in darkness, not just briefly, but consistently, they would be calling their salvation into question unless the Lord led them to repentance. It is possible for one of the Lord's sheep to become a lost sheep, and to find itself walking in spiritual darkness for a period.

marks said:
I still don't think this accurately shows the meaning of the verse.

We lie, present middle indicative. If I should be saying I have fellowship with God, and I should be walking in darkness, I am lying, and my claim of fellowship with God is false.

Not, if in the future, I should say I have fellowship with God but walk in darkness, I would then be lying. The lie is now.

Yes, I think that's fair comment; I could certainly have expressed myself better. My apologies. If the conditional statements are true at any time, then the indicative statement is true at that same time. But if the conditional statements are not true, the indicative statement does not apply.

You had also written:

Steve Owen said:
But if they were to commence walking in darkness, not just briefly, but consistently, they would be calling their salvation into question unless the Lord led them to repentance.

Do you mean that they had never actually been saved?

Much love!

Yes. I do not believe that a genuine believer can lose his salvation. One of Christ's sheep may become a lost sheep, but in that case the Good Shepherd will leave the 99 on the hillside and go and find him. He will never become a goat. You might consider 1 John 2:19: 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that none of them were of us.'

Blessings

soul man · Nov 28, 2019

Question! curious if anyone can see the birthing, an act of God totally independent of the sinner doing anything but believing?

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