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I agree - Christ felt like he was left in suffering and was destined to die. I think we can both agree Christ was not actually asking a question but crying for deliverance (and that God would be faithful to hear and deliver). I do not see that we disagree here, Steve. My objection is...

I did respond to post#224. You indicated it was necessary to understand the Bible. I said I did not believe it so. I agreed with the idea of Christ dying to free us from the law of sin and death. I do not believe Satan or man ever held sway over God. Payment God will not twice demand: You say...

Yes. "why are you so far from helping me" is along the lines of what I believe the passage means. But I think it an expression rather than divine bewilderment. What exactly do you think it means that Christ was "forsaken"?

@marks While the verse can mean "why have you left me alone" or "why are you not delivering me from death" based on language it cannot mean the former based on Scripture. The Bible is clear that God will not abandon the righteous. Psalm 22 is clear that God was there, heard, and answered the...

Yes. That is what I was wondering. I was wondering if you thought that God literally abandoned Christ when He was on the cross. I agree with your interpretation. It seems (especially if we link this to Psalm 22) that God never abandoned Christ but rather did not deliver him from suffering and...

I see it the same. But I see this as God abandoning Christ to the Cross (withholding deliverance from death) rather than abandoning Christ while He was on the Cross (God withdrawing from Christ) as I do not view God as departing from Christ. Do you believe that "forsaken" means that God...

I agree. But this still leaves to question what the phrase "My God, My God, why have your forsaken me?" means. Is it as the audience took it (as defined by the following Scripture) - a call of deliverance rather than a declaration of being abandoned? Is it a call of anguish as God forsook...

I never noticed this before, but you are right. Given Psalm 22 as a whole I think it is apparent this is the context of "forsake" in the first verse as well (it is deliverance through suffering rather than from it). But Christ never cried He was forsaken. Interesting. It is also interesting...

@Enoch111, I do not mean any offense but a bit of constructive criticism. You disqualified your opinion by the logical fallacies you chose to introduce your comments and later your question. It is easy to fall into fallacy, particularly ad hominem and appeals to authority, as arguments get in...

On another thread @Steve Owen mentioned that he believed that Christ was forsaken by God, I take it instead of us being forsaken. I still find the "instead of" wrong, but I am curious as to what it means that Christ became forsaken. In Psalm 22 the psalmist (foreshadowing Christ) cries out...

No. I will study the Bible, not your post, to see what the Bible says on the matter. I am asking about what you say on this matter. I have read pretty much everything Owen's has written (I was once a Calvinist who affirmed and taught Penal Substitution Theory and Owen's was one of my...

Hi Marks, These are good questions. I hope you don't mind but I'm going to answer in one post. Propitiation is defined as the act of gaining or regaining the favor or goodwill of something or someone, or something that propitiates or appeases. The word propitiation has different meanings...

Thank you. That does help me to understand your view. To make sure I am tracking - you believe that Christ's blood was shed for us, that He suffered and died (physically) as we do ("shared in our weakness"/ "shared in our infirmities"). And you believe that the purpose of Christ's death was...

I do not want the text (we agree on the text). I agree with your post that there is something that Christ has achieved for us on the cross. '.....That through death He might destroy Him who had the power of death, that is, the devil'. I joyfully proclaimed that Christ willingly took upon...

While I agree those who are saved receive eternal life it seems you are missing the question. Jesus suffered physically. We suffer physically. Jesus died physically. We will die physically. My question is what did Jesus suffer instead of us?

I agree mostly (I would say Christ became a curse for us rather than He took the curse instead of us). Were we forgiven all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross? No. Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the world. In Him there is no condemnation. This is is what Scripture says: The...

You explained very well how it was that Jesus bore away the sin of the world when you answered my question about suffering (only I would have taken it a step farther). I believe that Jesus became a curse for us (bore the sin of mankind, human sin, our sin) in his suffering and death in the act...

Thanks for your clarification, Steve. For me, I do believe that Christ is the living bread and he who eats of this bread will live forever. And I believe that Christ is the resurrection and the life. He who believes, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Him shall...

No. I think we both agree it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. It is obvious that Jesus did not suffer in the flesh do that we would not suffer in the flesh and physically die so that we would not die physically. He suffered and died physically for us, not instead of us in this...

@Steve Owen , I am not sure that I am being clear on my question. You have my apology if the barrier is my lack of skill with words. What I am saying is that we all agree Christ suffered and died to identify with us ("share in our infirmities"). My question relates specifically to Penal...