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I agree with a lot of what you say, Steve. I agree Christ had to suffer and die (to become a curse) to "be one of us" to have victory over the evil one and free us from the law of sin and death. We are tracking there. Do you believe Christ suffered anything instead of us? If so, what? Do...

Most scholars view Penal Substitution Theory as a product of the Reformation, so I suppose it depends on which ones we include in our counts. The point is we know as a fact not all who held the view taught that God paid Satan (unless you dispute Gregory Nazianzen's position, among others). The...

@Steve Owen, Let me reword the question. You have suggested that God punished Jesus (or our sins laid upon Jesus) instead of punishing us. You agree that we suffer and die. What do you believe Jesus suffered instead of us?

This is weird. I know "the extent of my obsession" o_O??? What an unsubstantiated slander! I disagree with @David Taylor and ask him a few questions he has proved unable to answer and you think this obsession and insult? What do you think I have said that is an insult to Taylor? Is he...

I agree. (for example we hate sin because we love God).

I do not know what you are talking about with @David Taylor. I have asked him several questions I believe to be at the heart of Christ's work (why Christ had to suffer and die physically). He cannot answer. What part of that do you believe constitutes an obsession or insult? I agree that...

@David Taylor, @Steve Owen, and @Enoch111 Another related question is what exactly did Christ suffer instead of us? If it was not physical suffering and death then what was this punishment experienced instead of us so that we would not experience it? Did Jesus die spiritually? Did He...

Not at all. I am telling you why I believe Christ had to suffer and die on the cross. I am not asking you to share my view. What about you? Why do you think Christ had to suffer and die physically? Do you believe Christ suffered physically instead of us suffering physically? Did Christ die...

My son is 16 and a high school junior. We moved here almost 2 years ago and he joined the skeet team (he had never shot before). We just got back from a competition. I was wondering how many have schools involved in the sport. We did not where we were TN but it seems popular here.

I do not know of a slur so I cannot speak to that. I also do not see where I have not answered your questions. Regardless, I do not think our answering for our faith is dependent on others answering for theirs. There is no need obscure your answers with accusations and insults. The reason I...

@Steve Owen , As you hold Penal Substitution Theory, perhaps you can lend your insight to those questions @David Taylor could not answer (I think that they are important, and it is important to know how someone who holds your position answers the question). I understand your position to...

Hi Steve, I hope the services for your friend went well. I know on one hand we rejoice when a brother goes home, but on another we deal with a loss. One correction- "everyone" does not suppose Origen taught that God literally paid a price to Satan. Most contemporary scholars do not believe...

I think I prefer "expression" instead of "motivation" when dealing with God. But I agree that all God does is an expression of love (of God Himself). I do not know that this was Torrance's point. I think the point is in how we answer the why of Christ's work. And that is for us.

Unfortunately, so can sheep. ;)

"One day a student called Harold Estes came into my rooms in the Dormitory to discuss an essay he had written on the atonement. He was a very gentle kindly person. It is he had spoke of the death of Christ simply as a demonstration of the love of God. He had been expounding something like what...

"Steve Jeffery, Michael Ovey, and Andrew Sach, the authors of the recent book Rediscovering the Glory of Penal Substitution, claim that penal substitutionary theory stretches back to the earliest fathers of the church....But scholarly opinion weighs against these authors. Most theologians and...

Again, I think that Jesus suffered and died to give Him the human experience of obedience even in agony (this is some of @marks words in relation to suffering - but I said the same using the expression that Christ "experienced what it is to be man"). I think that He died for us not so that we...

I agree. What you see in terms of Christ's "suffering before His death" is how I have viewed this "chastening" (I link it to Christ "learning obedience"). So it was not necessary "instead of us" but "for us"? Why a physical death (if not a punishment instead of us but to give death a different...

David, Do you believe that Jesus died physically (shed His blood) instead of us dying physically or was His physical death simply a byproduct of a "spiritual death"? If Christ's physical death was instead of us dying physically, then why do we experience physical death? If not, then in your...

Let me reword my question. If I understand you correctly you suggest that the distinction between Christus Victor and Ransom Theory is that Ransom Theory holds that God paid a ransom to Satan. Contemporary scholarship leans towards the idea that Origen used “Satan” as the personification of...