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Born Again wrote: "I was always perplexed by the OSAS concept. To some, it just seems like a free ticket to do the whole "Its okay, I'll be forgiven." I understand there's a lot more to your post, but I have to comnent on this part at least. Keep in mind I believe in predestination, not...

ATP, I agree that those in 1 john 2 didn't have root. Its proven because they didn't endure. The verse clearly says that. I suppose that referring to mark 13:13 isn't convincing you. I'll quote it: "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake, but he that shall endure unto the...

Tom55 wrote "So if "the end" for an OSAS person is committing suicide, will they go to heaven? If they make it to heaven what will God say to them?" I don't know if they'll be in heaven or not. That's between God and... well, its all up to God! It doesn't show much faith on the person's...

ATP wrote: "Running the race and enduring has to do with winning or losing rewards in heaven, and has nothing to do with our original salvation. Believers are rewarded, not judged." 1 Cor 9 is good, but I was thinking of Hebrews 12:1-2. I also mentioned Mark 13:13. We must endure for...

It can be an incorrect interpretation based on the circunstances, but not always. God said he would not lay on a believer more than he could bear. God knows all and ordains all, but it seemslike you are not believing that if you check out early. He also said tgat all things work for our good.

There are many profound one-liners in the book, but for me the most profound one for me is job 13:15 where job explains even if God slays him, job will trust him and maintain his ways.

Tom55, We are told many times in the NT (both in the gospels and the epistles) to endure. Mark 13:13 for example say he that endures to the end shall be saved. That alone is enough to answer both your questions, I believe. The effort is ours, that is true. We do have to do something and...

I agree with you Wormwood, in that the message and lesson isn't about john's name being on the wall. But, there it is! I think thats what ATP was getting at. Just because its not the main point doesn't mean you can overlook it as evidence. John was a chosen apostle. The book of...

That is usually the case, but its also usually mixed with new participants coming and going. Sometimes they bring something new, most of the time by page 8 there is nothing new that can be brought. But I do agree with you, most of what happens by this stage has nothing to do with the OP...

Don't really want to defend the Catholic point of view on this topic, but I'm afraid tom55 is right on one tiny detail. 1 Tim 2:1 says prayers and intercessions should be made for all men. So yes, we can intercede for others. I do highly doubt Paul meant to ask saints who've passed to do it...

Wormwood wrote: " Either God has predetermined all things prior to their creation and controls every event and decision, or human beings have the freedom to choose between opposites and are not predestined for heaven or hell prior to their birth. Either my dog has freedom to roam about the...

What happened? Did you buy a radio?

I absolutely agree. Both these folks have been class acts in this conversation and elsewhere as far ad I remember.

Very timely post and I appreciate it! Lately there has been talk of sanctification being an ongoing process, yet I had those verses of being sanctified (past tense) in mind. I don't think the flesh can ever be sanctified, but the spiritual man is. Where to you see the term perfected in this?

I have no problem with any of that, wormwood. Yet in both cases God clearlt claims responsibility for blinding them. I understand they were already blind, but in both cases God kept them that way when he even said if they understood their sins would've been forgiven. In both cases God took...

Barrd, I've been through 3 pete 3:9 with you before. Do you remember what I pointed out what it says? I've read the book of revelation. I believe that is the end of the story and I believe it IS going to happen. That in no way makes me say, "whats the point?" Isaiah 46:10 says God...

No its not. That's rediculous!

Oh, by the way. Yes, we do make choices. Never said otherwise. Its just that in the end, they all line up with his will.

The choice is God's. God draws us to hin, not the other way around. Any choice we make is foreknown AND predetermined. It was decided before genesis 1:1... just like Jesus being slain and resurrected was done and finished before the foundation of the world. Sorry you see it as all a sham...

I can only suppose it took me longer to get it than some, but less time than others. Still it was God's will. That's a big point with me... I get the feeling that folks who don't believe in predestination and "free will" think that those of us that do believe in predestination... well, they...