“And the earth was without form, and void”

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CoreIssue

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There is no such then as a preadamic or preadamite earth. Clarence Larkin promoted this theory but it is false.

JOHN GILL COMMENTARY
And the earth was without form, and void,.... It was not in the form it now is, otherwise it must have a form, as all matter has; it was a fluid matter, the watery parts were not separated from the earthy ones; it was not put into the form of a terraqueous globe it is now, the sea apart, and the earth by itself, but were mixed and blended together; it was, as both the Targums of Jonathan and Jerusalem paraphrase it, a waste and desert, empty and destitute of both men and beasts; and it may be added, of fishes and fowls, and also of trees, herbs, and plants...

It existed long before Larkin and I gave you a link to Biblical proofs. But of course amillennialism is not literal and you refused to address anything I said in that link.

And you lapse back into the good old King James version.

I already posted proof "was" is wrong, it became.

Add to that you're quoting a Calvinist from 1700.

That simple fact remains dinosaurs and humans did not coexist per the bible and science.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I already posted proof "was" is wrong, it became.

Still ‘was’ or ‘became’ in context:

Jeremiah 4:23-28
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

“Mountain and hills moved”

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

“...all the birds of the heavens were fled.”

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord , and by his fierce anger.

A once ‘fruitful’ place is a wilderness. ‘Cities’ broken down from the presence of the Lord.

[27] For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

[28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it , I have purposed it , and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

“For this shall the earth mourn.”
Are you saying this is the same as Genesis 1:1-In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

...or are you saying Jeremiah is before Genesis 1?
 

bbyrd009

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I already posted proof "was" is wrong, it became.
i don't see how you could have any proof as the term could be interpreted either way, even if i happen to prefer "became" for other reasons. I tried tracking back to find your proof, could you repost it? The "tenses" argument, i guess? ty
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Does Jeremiah 5:1 have anything to do with Jeremiah 4? Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.
 

CoreIssue

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Still ‘was’ or ‘became’ in context:

Jeremiah 4:23-28
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

“Mountain and hills moved”

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

“...all the birds of the heavens were fled.”

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord , and by his fierce anger.


I don't like the King James version. The archaic English is a problem along with some mistranslations
A once ‘fruitful’ place is a wilderness. ‘Cities’ broken down from the presence of the Lord.

[27] For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

[28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it , I have purposed it , and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

“For this shall the earth mourn.”
Are you saying this is the same as Genesis 1:1-In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

...or are you saying Jeremiah is before Genesis 1?

I am saying preadamic was genesis 1:1. The war in heaven, along with the associated destruction was between verses one and two.

Jeremiah was looking back on the destruction from the war.

There was a race of non humans with associated plant and animal life and cities.

Those that went with Satan are now demons. Those that went with God are represented by the four living creatures around the throne. They are not angels or spirits. They are flesh.

God wrapped the earth in darkness due to that war.

Extensive coverage is at:


Commentaries by CoreIssue

Jeremiah 4:23-28 New International Version (NIV)
23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.

27 This is what the Lord says:

“The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.”

Once again, from Adamic creation until the end of time there will always be people, plants and animals and cities on the earth.

Read the link because it is just too much material to type here.
 

Jay Ross

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Hello

Please allow me to attach an extract from a document that I am hoping to complete on the Book of Genesis. The extract gives my thoughts on the first Day within God's timeframe of Creation.

I trust for those of you who will read this extract that you find it helpful.

Shalom
 

Attachments

  • Book One of Genesis - Creation to the Flood - 2013-12-30 - extract of day one only.pdf
    218.2 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

CoreIssue

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i don't see how you could have any proof as the term could be interpreted either way, even if i happen to prefer "became" for other reasons. I tried tracking back to find your proof, could you repost it? The "tenses" argument, i guess? ty

All that has been addressed. In means became.

And I agree there are other reasons as well, which I have also posted proof for.
 

CoreIssue

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Hello

Please allow me to attach an extract from a document that I am hoping to complete on the Book of Genesis. The extract gives my thoughts on the first Day within God's timeframe of Creation.

I thrust for those of you who will read this extract that you find it helpful.

Shalom
Who are UNU Ministries?
 

101G

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Genesis 1:2-3
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Jeremiah 4:21-28
[21] How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? [22] For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. [23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. [24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. [25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. [26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord , and by his fierce anger. [27] For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. [28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it , I have purposed it , and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Any input on Jeremiah 4:21-28?

Addressing the OP only.
the destruction of the earth error, better known as the gap theory. many believe that in the Genesis 1:2. that the destruction of the "earth took place and was repopulated". many take this stand using Jeremiah 4:23 as stated above. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light”, as their proof to this destruction. let’s see if this is true or not. This theory traditionally stands or fall on these 2 words found in verse 2 of chapter 1 in the book of Genesis. these two words are the Hebrew words, “tohuw“, meaning, “without form”, and the other word, “bohuw”, meaning void. I can go the long way in disproving this theory, but I’ll take the short and quick way to disprove the theory. 2 steps to reveal the truth.

my source for H776 ’eres earth, land, is VINE'S COMPLETE old Testament EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY. I suggest one read the definition first.

the key to solving this error is in the usage of the Hebrew word for “EARTH” or “LAND”, H776 ’eres as used in Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23. there are two usage of H776 ’eres. first usage, “EARTH”. in the Old Testament It expresses a world view contrary to ancient myths, as well as many modern theories seeking to explain the origin of the universe and the forces which sustain it. ’Eres may be translated "earth," the temporal scene of human activity, experience, and history. The material world that had a beginning when God "made the earth by His power," "formed it," and "spread it out".

but usage #2, of this same word can be translated as "LAND", and does not only denote the entire terrestrial planet, but is also used of some of the earth's component parts. English words like land, country, ground, and soil, this transfer its meaning into our language. example, "the LAND of Egypt," "the LAND of the Philistines," "the LAND of Israel," "the LAND of Benjamin," and so on.

So we can clearly see from the above definitions that Jeremiah was talking only about a certain LAND on the EARTH, and not the entire planet itself. As definition #2 states, “it refers to an area occupied by a nation or tribe”, in this case Judah. Because verse 23 states, “The whole LAND shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end”. The LAND was Judah, and not the entire planet. notice how I been capitalizing “LAND”. let’s put it in plain language. the Original Word: ’eres can mean LAND, like we say today the LAND of Lincoln. do we mean the entire planet? no, we’re speaking of the Land of the state of Illinois, not the entire planet. now, the bible example, and how it is used in correct context. Genesis 2:11 "The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold”. the whole “LAND” (H776 אֶרֶץ 'erets), is this the whole “EARTH”? NO just as definition #2 states, some of the earth's component parts, like in ground, country, or “LAND”. this is how the devil deceive or beguiled people, if they don't research out word.

so in Genesis 1:2 it is speaking of the entire planet, and in Jeremiah only the “LAND” of Judah. do the research which leads us to step #2.

Step #2 the repopulating of the earth error, again we will take the quick and easy way to put an end, or to rest this error. the KJ version of the bible was written in old English. so we need an old English dictionary to use, because words change meaning over time. scripture, Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”. here, the misunderstood word is “replenish”. let's get the correct definition. using an old English dictionary, Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, the word “replenish” means, 1. To fill; (STOP), we don’t have to go any further. there is where the error lay. most think replenish mean to "do it again". no, it mean to fill. definition #2. To finish; to complete. {Not in use}.

so in conclusion: the Earth was not destroyed at Genesis 1:2 and neither was it RE-plenish, (do it again), but filled with PEOPLE from the command of God. I hope one can see the truth now.
 

CoreIssue

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Addressing the OP only.
the destruction of the earth error, better known as the gap theory. many believe that in the Genesis 1:2. that the destruction of the "earth took place and was repopulated". many take this stand using Jeremiah 4:23 as stated above. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light”, as their proof to this destruction. let’s see if this is true or not. This theory traditionally stands or fall on these 2 words found in verse 2 of chapter 1 in the book of Genesis. these two words are the Hebrew words, “tohuw“, meaning, “without form”, and the other word, “bohuw”, meaning void. I can go the long way in disproving this theory, but I’ll take the short and quick way to disprove the theory. 2 steps to reveal the truth.

my source for H776 ’eres earth, land, is VINE'S COMPLETE old Testament EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY. I suggest one read the definition first.

the key to solving this error is in the usage of the Hebrew word for “EARTH” or “LAND”, H776 ’eres as used in Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23. there are two usage of H776 ’eres. first usage, “EARTH”. in the Old Testament It expresses a world view contrary to ancient myths, as well as many modern theories seeking to explain the origin of the universe and the forces which sustain it. ’Eres may be translated "earth," the temporal scene of human activity, experience, and history. The material world that had a beginning when God "made the earth by His power," "formed it," and "spread it out".

but usage #2, of this same word can be translated as "LAND", and does not only denote the entire terrestrial planet, but is also used of some of the earth's component parts. English words like land, country, ground, and soil, this transfer its meaning into our language. example, "the LAND of Egypt," "the LAND of the Philistines," "the LAND of Israel," "the LAND of Benjamin," and so on.

So we can clearly see from the above definitions that Jeremiah was talking only about a certain LAND on the EARTH, and not the entire planet itself. As definition #2 states, “it refers to an area occupied by a nation or tribe”, in this case Judah. Because verse 23 states, “The whole LAND shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end”. The LAND was Judah, and not the entire planet. notice how I been capitalizing “LAND”. let’s put it in plain language. the Original Word: ’eres can mean LAND, like we say today the LAND of Lincoln. do we mean the entire planet? no, we’re speaking of the Land of the state of Illinois, not the entire planet. now, the bible example, and how it is used in correct context. Genesis 2:11 "The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold”. the whole “LAND” (H776 אֶרֶץ 'erets), is this the whole “EARTH”? NO just as definition #2 states, some of the earth's component parts, like in ground, country, or “LAND”. this is how the devil deceive or beguiled people, if they don't research out word.

so in Genesis 1:2 it is speaking of the entire planet, and in Jeremiah only the “LAND” of Judah. do the research which leads us to step #2.

Step #2 the repopulating of the earth error, again we will take the quick and easy way to put an end, or to rest this error. the KJ version of the bible was written in old English. so we need an old English dictionary to use, because words change meaning over time. scripture, Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”. here, the misunderstood word is “replenish”. let's get the correct definition. using an old English dictionary, Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, the word “replenish” means, 1. To fill; (STOP), we don’t have to go any further. there is where the error lay. most think replenish mean to "do it again". no, it mean to fill. definition #2. To finish; to complete. {Not in use}.

so in conclusion: the Earth was not destroyed at Genesis 1:2 and neither was it RE-plenish, (do it again), but filled with PEOPLE from the command of God. I hope one can see the truth now.[/QUOTEI agreed it was not destroyed in 1:2. It was destroyed between 1:1 and 2.

God does not create chaos. He created the earth to be inhabited in 1:1.

And Jeremiah is talking about the whole earth between 1:1 and two. You cannot sure old anything in the bible to support just Judah.
 
B

brakelite

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Good question, and obviously we do not have all the answers. But the nature of events listed correspond in those passages, and that is all we can go by.
The question is answered when one places the Jeremiah descriptive where it belongs...after the second coming.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Jeremiah is looking back, not forward. And there is no life on the earth, which cannot be found in the bible.
Is Daniel looking forward...or back?
Da 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Da 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
Da 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
 

CoreIssue

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Is Daniel looking forward...or back?
Da 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Da 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
Da 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
Looking forward. But not what Jeremiah is talking about the earth was still abundant withe life.

I'm not seeing your point unless you're trying to build a case for the SDA belief all life will be gone, which is not Biblical.