“And the earth was without form, and void”

[quietthinker]

Genesis 1:2-3
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Jeremiah 4:21-28
[21] How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? [22] For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. [23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. [24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. [25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. [26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord , and by his fierce anger. [27] For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. [28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it , I have purposed it , and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Any input on Jeremiah 4:21-28?

It's describing the period of the millennium.

 

[quietthinker]

Jeremiah was looking back in time not forward.

From the six days until the end of time there are always animals and people. But Jeremiah said there were none. So it is not future.

why would he want to do that?

 

[Hidden In Him]

The problem you have is an verses 23-27 and the rest of the chapter are talking about two different issues. The technique is used many times in the bible, such as comparing the king to Satan and his loss of his heavenly domain.
It says all life of any kind is gone but in the other verses it talks about living humans.

It says the cities are destroyed while the other verses say they are deserted.

Then you want to get on the issue of formless and void. But Isaiah 45:18 to 9 denies you. He created the earth to be inhabited.

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 08414 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
wht from an unused root meaning to lie waste
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Tohuw TWOT - 2494a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
to'-hoo Noun Masculine
Definition

1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
   1. formlessness (of primeval earth)
      1. nothingness, empty space
   2. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
   3. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
   4. place of chaos
   5. vanity

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 0922 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
whb from an unused root (meaning to be empty)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Bohuw TWOT - 205a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
bo'-hoo Noun Masculine
Definition

1. emptiness, void, waste

In Genesis there was no land. God raised it out of the water

By the usage in Jeremiah war often renders land formless and void. But the dry land was still dry land in Jeremiah. So do not try to compare it to Genesis unless it is the whole world.

• The verses. I pointed out are not about Judah. I believe Jeremiah used preadamic as an example.

Just like Satan walking among the jewels in the sky and rebelling was used as an example of the king.

We appear to have two different perspectives on interpretation here. In both passages they were using corollary. If in the same passages the writers were jumping to talking about entirely unrelated things, why include them in their present discussions?

 

[brakelite]

I agree that there is an primary application to literal Israel in the Jeremiah text, but a secondary application to the millennium. There are other scriptures in Jeremiah and Isaiah that describe a global context. Jeremiah 25 is an example, where Jeremiah begins addressing one king, but finished by pronouncing judgement on all the nations, a judgement so dire
KJV Jeremiah 25
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they be dung upon the ground.
The reason I believe in the barrenness of the earth in the millennium is at first based on the word abussos, translated void... Abyss... Pit... Bottomless pit... Etc. The general idea being of a place empty, desolate, lifeless. Which simply fits with other scriptures describing the same, and in places can be be understood to be on a global scale, especially when one gives consideration to the enormity of the global damage that will ensure from the plagues, and the widespread number of deaths from the presence of the Lamb himself. There is no suggestion anywhere that such a state of destruction, pollution, and poison is going to be cleaned up that people can live in it. The new heavens and the new earth do not come until much later...1000 years later.
Why should not the earth enjoy her Sabbath rest, long denied her by her previous inhabitants?

 

[bbyrd009]

Not at my age. Good night.

well, good point i guess, yes, imo at your age you should be ashamed of all this prevaricating and deflecting, it's like you are 7 or something. Which might be me too, sometimes. but i don't think all the time like this. I mean wadr you are literally now giving impertinent answers to an empty room, "Not at my age" does not even make any sense as a reply to my post? Can i ask why you quoted me to tell me "not at your age" apropos of nothing? What 'not at your age?' exactly? might pop in after my second cuppa maybe lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry , but that possibly is the worst example of exegesis I have come across.

seems like generally speaking the surer we are the more unlikely the truth is, huh

 

[bbyrd009]

Bolding Italics is to give clear distinguish mark from what I'm responding to. Nothing more.

and by God no matter how many ppl tell you the truth, you are going to stick with that, huh

you got all the witnesses you need already huh CI
lol
sorry, couldn't help it, but i mean yikes already

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree that there is an primary application to literal Israel in the Jeremiah text, but a secondary application to the millennium. There are other scriptures in Jeremiah and Isaiah that describe a global context. Jeremiah 25 is an example, where Jeremiah begins addressing one king, but finished by pronouncing judgement on all the nations, a judgement so dire
KJV Jeremiah 25

Well, now Jeremiah 25 does indeed turn to discussing the nations. But here the transition from talking about Israel's destruction to talking about His judgment upon the nations is very clear:

1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah... 7 Ye have not hearkened unto me, saith Jehovah; that ye may provoke me to anger with the work of your hands to your own hurt. 8 Therefore thus saith Jehovah of hosts: Because ye have not heard my words, 9 behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith Jehovah, and [I will send] unto Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and a hissing, and perpetual desolations... 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith Jehovah, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make IT desolate for ever.(emphasis mine).

Then He transitions from there into a prophecy about the kings of the nations at the time:

13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall make bondmen of them, even of them; and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the work of their hands. 15 For thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, unto me: take this cup of the wine of wrath at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16 And they shall drink, and reel to and fro, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them. 17 Then took I the cup at Jehovah's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom Jehovah had sent me: 18 [to wit], Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, a hissing, and a curse, as it is this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people; 20 and all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of the Uz, and all the kings of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Gaza, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod; 21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon; 22 and all the kings of Tyre, and all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the isle which is beyond the sea; 23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that have the corners [of their hair] cut off; 24 and all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the wilderness; 25 and all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes; 26 and all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another; and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. 27 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel: Drink ye, and be drunken, and spew, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

Now if you look closely, even this passage isn't Messianic, but simply draws parallels with the Day of the Lord. The reason is because this judgment was specifically pronounced against the kings of these nations during Jeremiah's time.

Anyway, I'm simply saying that in Jeremiah 4:5-29 there is no mention of the nations at all, so saying it is an end-time prophecy about the nations during the millennium is an even greater stretch.

 

[CoreIssue]

well, good point i guess, yes, imo at your age you should be ashamed of all this prevaricating and deflecting, it's like you are 7 or something. Which might be me too, sometimes. but i don't think all the time like this. I mean wadr you are literally now giving impertinent answers to an empty room, "Not at my age" does not even make any sense as a reply to my post? Can i ask why you quoted me to tell me "not at your age" apropos of nothing? What 'not at your age?' exactly? might pop in after my second cuppa maybe lol

Forgot to take your Meds again I see.

 

[CoreIssue]

We appear to have two different perspectives on interpretation here. In both passages they were using corollary. If in the same passages the writers were jumping to talking about entirely unrelated things, why include them in their present discussions?

Because the prophets did.

In one case you want to use it to support you but then when the a second case is added you say well just forget those.

Both are added for perspective and understanding. You cannot deny them, to do so is to disregard God.

 

[CoreIssue]

I agree that there is an primary application to literal Israel in the Jeremiah text, but a secondary application to the millennium. There are other scriptures in Jeremiah and Isaiah that describe a global context. Jeremiah 25 is an example, where Jeremiah begins addressing one king, but finished by pronouncing judgement on all the nations, a judgement so dire
KJV Jeremiah 25
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they be dung upon the ground.
The reason I believe in the barrenness of the earth in the millennium is at first based on the word abussos, translated void... Abyss... Pit... Bottomless pit... Etc. The general idea being of a place empty, desolate, lifeless. Which simply fits with other scriptures describing the same, and in places can be be understood to be on a global scale, especially when one gives consideration to the enormity of the global damage that will ensure from the plagues, and the widespread number of deaths from the presence of the Lamb himself. There is no suggestion anywhere that such a state of destruction, pollution, and poison is going to be cleaned up that people can live in it. The new heavens and the new earth do not come until much later...1000 years later.
Why should not the earth enjoy her Sabbath rest, long denied her by her previous inhabitants?

That is not MK, but the tribulation.

Satan is locked in the pit at the second coming. Then released 1000 years later at the end of the MK.

He marches on Jerusalem again and God says enough, he raptures the remaining saints per Peter and then destroys the current heavens and earth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Because the prophets did.

In one case you want to use it to support you but then when the a second case is added you say well just forget those.

Both are added for perspective and understanding. You cannot deny them, to do so is to disregard God.

?
I'm telling you I don't think they switched out to discussing entirely unrelated things, in either case. In both cases the references draw parallels, to the land of Israel being returned to the time of creation as it were in one, and to the king of Tyre exalting himself with pride like Satan had in the other. They are not entirely unrelated. Both are negative allusions to things devolving into worse states, and both have very clear commonalities with the people being discussed in the passages.

 

[CoreIssue]

?
I'm telling you I don't think they switched out to discussing entirely unrelated things, in either case. In both cases the references draw parallels, to the land of Israel being returned to the time of creation as it were in one, and to the king of Tyre exalting himself with pride like Satan had in the other. They are not entirely unrelated. Both are negative allusions to things devolving into worse states, and both have very clear commonalities with the people being discussed in the passages.

Judah was not returned to the condition of Gen 1:2 where there was no dry land. Everything was underwater.

There were no birds, people or animals on the earth in genesis 1:2

But as quoted in my link God created the earth to be inhabited. So it was not under water in genesis 1:1. In fact there were no oceans, all was land.

On the new earth I believe it will be as it was in genesis 1:1. No oceans, no darkness, no sun, no Moon, no stars, etc.

Genesis 1:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Now means it was not before.

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 01961 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
hyh a primitive root [compare (01933)]
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hayah TWOT - 491
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
haw-yaw Verb
Definition

1. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
   1. (Qal)
      1. ----- 1a
   2. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
   3. to come about, come to pass
      1. to come into being, become 1a
   4. to arise, appear, come 1a
   5. to become 1a
      1. to become 1a
      2. to become like 1a
      3. to be instituted, be established
      4. to be 1a
   6. to exist, be in existence 1a
   7. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
   8. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
   9. to accompany, be with
   10. (Niphal)
       1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
       2. to be done, be finished, be gone

 

[bbyrd009]

Forgot to take your Meds again I see.

ok, go with that then, and have a nice day

so have a nice evening, and ty for the...um, whatever those are, ok

Not at my age. Good night.

"Not at my age" does not even make any sense as a reply to my post? Can i ask why you quoted me to tell me "not at your age" apropos of nothing? Are you taking lessons from Dave now?

Forgot to take your Meds again I see.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Please allow me to make the following observation on the verse, Jeremiah 25:12 and how with the English translation of this verse, because of how one word has been translated, we arrive at a wrong understanding of what is being prophesised.

Jeremiah 25:12-14: - 12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the Lord; 'and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 (For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)'"​

The impression that is made in our mind is that the period of time that the English word used to translate ‘ō·w·lām as perpetual or forever gives the wrong impression, when H:5769 has the meaning of: - for a long period of time, i.e. a long duration which is difficult to comprehend, where the duration of the "finite" period of desolation is not provided. In other words the period of time that the Land of the Chaldeans is desolate is finite and not infinite as translators suggest.

Isaiah 13:20 speak of the same period of time when Babylon is left desolate in this manner: -

Isaiah 13:19-20: -

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans' pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It will not be inhabited,
It will not be settled in for a generation and a generation;
The Arabians will not pitch tents there,
The shepherds will not make their sheepfolds there.

(My Paraphrase of verse 20)​

Jeremiah also wrote the following on the devastation and desolation of the land of the Chaldeans in the following passage: -

Jeremiah 50:39-40

39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be not be inhabited for a long period of time,
It shall not be dwelt in for a generation and a generation.
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors," says the Lord,
"So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.

(My Paraphrase of verse 39)​

The utilities of Babylon were dismantled by the Greeks and the utilities of Babylon and it people where carted off to another part of that Grecian Empire for a period of two ages, i.e. for a period of time a little longer that 2,000 years, and after the passing of this time. was remembered by God and humanity after the First World War once more.

How the English Bible translations have been framed, impacts our understanding of how the End Times will be played out with all of the embedded biases of the translated texts encoded into the various translations.

Shalom

 

[CoreIssue]

Hello

Please allow me to make the following observation on the verse, Jeremiah 25:12 and how with the English translation of this verse, because of how one word has been translated, we arrive at a wrong understanding of what is being prophesised.

Jeremiah 25:12-14: - 12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the Lord; 'and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 (For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)'"​

The impression that is made in our mind is that the period of time that the English word used to translate ‘ō·w·lām as perpetual or forever gives the wrong impression, when H:5769 has the meaning of: - for a long period of time, i.e. a long duration which is difficult to comprehend, where the duration of the "finite" period of desolation is not provided. In other words the period of time that the Land of the Chaldeans is desolate is finite and not infinite as translators suggest.

Isaiah 13:20 speak of the same period of time when Babylon is left desolate in this manner: -

Isaiah 13:19-20: -

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans' pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It will not be inhabited,
It will not be settled in for a generation and a generation;
The Arabians will not pitch tents there,
The shepherds will not make their sheepfolds there.

(My Paraphrase of verse 20)​

Jeremiah also wrote the following on the devastation and desolation of the land of the Chaldeans in the following passage: -

Jeremiah 50:39-40

39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be not be inhabited for a long period of time,
It shall not be dwelt in for a generation and a generation.
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors," says the Lord,
"So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.

(My Paraphrase of verse 39)​

The utilities of Babylon were dismantled by the Greeks and the utilities of Babylon and it people where carted off to another part of that Grecian Empire for a period of two ages, i.e. for a period of time a little longer that 2,000 years, and after the passing of this time. was remembered by God and humanity after the First World War once more.

How the English Bible translations have been framed, impacts our understanding of how the End Times will be played out with all of the embedded biases of the translated texts encoded into the various translations.

Shalom

Which does not concern the preadamic portions of Jeremiah 25.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Judah was not returned to the condition of Gen 1:2 where there was no dry land. Everything was underwater.

There were no birds, people or animals on the earth in genesis 1:2

But as quoted in my link God created the earth to be inhabited. So it was not under water in genesis 1:1. In fact there were no oceans, all was land.

Oh. I understand you now. See, I don't ascribe to a pre-Adamic earth, so I don't interpret Genesis 1:2 as stating that the earth was covered in nothing but water in Genesis 1:2. "And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" simply means that those portions of the surface that were earth were waste and void, while those portions that were oceans (i.e. "the deep") were covered in darkness.

Hence the parallel to Judah after the conquest.

So why do you believe in a pre-Adamic earth? Christian evolutionist?

 

[CoreIssue]

Oh. I understand you now. See, I don't ascribe to a pre-Adamic earth, so I don't interpret Genesis 1:2 as stating that the earth was covered in nothing but water in Genesis 1:2. "And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" simply means that those portions of the surface that were earth were waste and void, while those portions that were oceans (i.e. "the deep") were covered in darkness.

Hence the parallel to Judah after the conquest.

So why do you believe in a pre-Adamic earth? Christian evolutionist?

There's no mention of land in genesis until God raised of water. You made a bad assumption.

Read my link. It we'll get too confusing to try to spell and a lot here here.

We are on the earth created the genesis 1:1, destroyed between verses one and two and then remade in verses three on.

The link deals with the Hebrew words used. In genesis 1:1, out of nothing. Three on remade/reformed out of the chaotic mess.

That too many people do not understand the word create in the bible.

Not even the KJV says create after the first verse.
.’

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello

Please allow me to make the following observation on the verse, Jeremiah 25:12 and how with the English translation of this verse, because of how one word has been translated, we arrive at a wrong understanding of what is being prophesised.

Jeremiah 25:12-14: - 12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the Lord; 'and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 (For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)'"​

The impression that is made in our mind is that the period of time that the English word used to translate ‘ō·w·lām as perpetual or forever gives the wrong impression, when H:5769 has the meaning of: - for a long period of time, i.e. a long duration which is difficult to comprehend, where the duration of the "finite" period of desolation is not provided. In other words the period of time that the Land of the Chaldeans is desolate is finite and not infinite as translators suggest.

Isaiah 13:20 speak of the same period of time when Babylon is left desolate in this manner: -

Isaiah 13:19-20: -

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans' pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It will not be inhabited,
It will not be settled in for a generation and a generation;
The Arabians will not pitch tents there,
The shepherds will not make their sheepfolds there.

(My Paraphrase of verse 20)​

Jeremiah also wrote the following on the devastation and desolation of the land of the Chaldeans in the following passage: -

Jeremiah 50:39-40

39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be not be inhabited for a long period of time,
It shall not be dwelt in for a generation and a generation.
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors," says the Lord,
"So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.

(My Paraphrase of verse 39)​

The utilities of Babylon were dismantled by the Greeks and the utilities of Babylon and it people where carted off to another part of that Grecian Empire for a period of two ages, i.e. for a period of time a little longer that 2,000 years, and after the passing of this time. was remembered by God and humanity after the First World War once more.

How the English Bible translations have been framed, impacts our understanding of how the End Times will be played out with all of the embedded biases of the translated texts encoded into the various translations.

Shalom

This is excellent work, Jay Ross. The LXX has the following wording: καὶ θήσομαι αὐτοὺς εἰς ἀφανισμὸν αἰώνιον· = "and will make them an everlasting desolation," but as the CBL states, "Like its relative aion, ainoios is common in the Septuagint (ca. 160 times), and like aion, it is a regular replacement for the Hebrew ‘ōlām, 'long time, duration, for all time.'" I need to keep this in mind whenever reading the word αιώνιος in the NT. That's a very interesting insight.

Thanks for the post. I appreciate it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

There's no mention of land in genesis until God raised of water. You made a bad assumption.

Read my link. It we'll get too confusing to try to spell and a lot here here.

We are on the earth created the genesis 1:1, destroyed between verses one and two and then remade in verses three on.

The link deals with the Hebrew words used. In genesis 1:1, out of nothing. Three on remade/reformed out of the chaotic mess.

That too many people do not understand the word create in the bible.

Not even the KJV says create after the first verse.

Well, thanks for referencing the link. I'm a creationist, however, so I've never really felt the need to break up the Genesis account into different ages or time periods. That's why I was asking if you were a Christian evolutionist.

I don't really feel the leading to dig into the question right now, but maybe we can pick it up another time.

Thanks again for the post.