12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[Classic Rider]

Hi "Kingj" hope you are having a good day. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

Anyway I wanted to point out one thing... I still cannot find a place even in Revelation where it says that humans will be tormented forever. I do see where it says the devil and the beast and the false prophet will be but I don't see any reason to think that those are humans since the devil isn't and the 1st beast comes up out of the pit and the 2nd beast ( false prophet) is said to be like the first beast. Fallen angles are imprisioned in the pit. So I don't see any evidence of Humans here. Then later it does indeed say that people will be cast into the Lake of fire also but it fails to tell us how long they will be there. I would believe that people will be tormented forever if someone could show me a verse that plainly says that but I just can't find one and I want to give God the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

If you have time today, would you mind explaining what your view is regarding the unsaved. If you don't believe in either eternal torment or annihilation then what exactly is your view? I am guessing that it is simply that lost people experience unhappiness here on earth for being separated from God? That is certainly true but is there more to it than that? Or if it is that the unsaved will be alone forever separated from God and everyone but won't be tormented in any other way that just being separated... If that is it then that is actually a million times worse than annihilation. I would much rather not exist than be put in a little dark room by myself for eternity. Or are you teaching universalism? I am just curious. Either way I think neither one of us takes Revelation to be completely literal.
Thanks so much for your patience and kindness. Blessings...

I wanted to say one more thing.... Death never just meant separation from God. In Genesis 3:17 God said to Adam "because you have heeded the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree... Cursed is the ground....dust you are and to dust you shall return."

There are several curses in that passage but the last part of the passage about curses is that they would return to dust.

Also, another result of Adam and Eve's sin is that they were sent out of the Garden lest they continue to eat of the tree of life and live forever. "and now lest he (Adam) put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden

So the result of Adam's sin was that he was cut off from the tree of life and that resulted in aging and death. So the results of Adam's sin was certainly a break in fellowship with God but was also being cut off from the tree of life so that they couldn't keep living... and they would die and return to the dust. You see, the wages of sin is death. Not just separation but eventually ceasing to continue on as functioning and thinking beings. So when the Lord said to Adam and Eve that in the day that they ate of the fruit they would die that clearly just means that on that day they lost access to the tree of life and so would die. Besides the Hebrew word for "day" is Yom and it is used 65 times in the old testament to mean period of time. Many, many times it does not mean a literal 24 hour period.

Also if God exclusively meant that separation and nothing more was the punishment for sin then why didn't he just tell Adam that if you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall be separated from Me? There is a hebrew word for separation. He said death because that covered all of the aspects of the punishment not just the separation part. Death included both being separated from God spiritually and also being cut off of the tree of life and not being able to continue forever and thus ceasing to function mentally and physically. The concept of a resurrection wasn't clear until later. Job asked the question "If a man dies shall he live again?"

 

[Wormwood]

Classic,

Death is a theologically thick term. Just like "light" and "darkness" in John's Gospel are rich with meaning, so "death" and "life" are rich with meaning Genesis. Jesus said, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." Life comes from God and nothing is dead in his presence. Thus, to be cut off from God is the same as death because "to him all are alive." When Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life" he was not simply talking about keeping people conscious and preventing them from being worm food. Eternal life is a rich term that means much more than continued existence. The same is true of eternal death or destruction. If God simply exterminates the unbelieving by eternal death, why does he resurrect them first? I don't think God is resurrecting the wicked just so he can put them back to sleep. Often Jesus and Paul speak of death as "sleep" yet at the same time, Paul says that to be apart from the body is to be present with the Lord. So which is it? I think the "sleep" or "death" refer to the body, but the spirit maintains consciousness. Also, consider 1 Peter 3:19-20.

Moreover, I think it is clear that the beast and false prophet are human systems and powers that are at work in the world to lead people astray. I would encourage you to do some reading up on this, especially how it relates to the early Christians and their persecution under Rome and the cult of the emperor.

 

[KingJ]

Hi Classic, just further on 'death', you need to consider your scriptures with scripture like Matt 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Rom 2:6-8 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

If all criminals get lethal injection then why say 'more bearable' or 'repay each person according to deeds'...heck there would be no need for the white throne judgment.

Anyway I wanted to point out one thing... I still cannot find a place even in Revelation where it says that humans will be tormented forever

In verse 15 it says we are thrown in with them. Why do you interpret death as literal death and not eternal punishment as eternal punishment? Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Jesus did not use ''destroyed vs eternal life''.

I wanted to say one more thing.... Death never just meant separation from God. In Genesis 3:17 God said to Adam "because you have heeded the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree... Cursed is the ground....dust you are and to dust you shall return."

There are several curses in that passage but the last part of the passage about curses is that they would return to dust.

Also, another result of Adam and Eve's sin is that they were sent out of the Garden lest they continue to eat of the tree of life and live forever. "and now lest he (Adam) put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden

So the result of Adam's sin was that he was cut off from the tree of life and that resulted in aging and death. So the results of Adam's sin was certainly a break in fellowship with God but was also being cut off from the tree of life so that they couldn't keep living... and they would die and return to the dust. You see, the wages of sin is death. Not just separation but eventually ceasing to continue on as functioning and thinking beings. So when the Lord said to Adam and Eve that in the day that they ate of the fruit they would die that clearly just means that on that day they lost access to the tree of life and so would die. Besides the Hebrew word for "day" is Yom and it is used 65 times in the old testament to mean period of time. Many, many times it does not mean a literal 24 hour period.

I think the 'death thing' has been killed now .

Also if God exclusively meant that separation and nothing more was the punishment for sin then why didn't he just tell Adam that if you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall be separated from Me? There is a hebrew word for separation.

Because God never sees separation as separation. God ''knows'' that out of His presence = death. Christians should be able to grasp this. We live with an anointing and peace on us. We know that when our unsaved friends are with us they feel alive and happy. We have pearls to give. But when they are not with us. But rather with each other...it is wolves with wolves.

If you have time today, would you mind explaining what your view is regarding the unsaved. If you don't believe in either eternal torment or annihilation then what exactly is your view? I am guessing that it is simply that lost people experience unhappiness here on earth for being separated from God? That is certainly true but is there more to it than that? Or if it is that the unsaved will be alone forever separated from God and everyone but won't be tormented in any other way that just being separated... If that is it then that is actually a million times worse than annihilation. I would much rather not exist than be put in a little dark room by myself for eternity. Or are you teaching universalism? I am just curious. Either way I think neither one of us takes Revelation to be completely literal.
Thanks so much for your patience and kindness. Blessings...

I don't believe in universal salvation because of John 3:19. The ''verdict'' is that people love the darkness. If it were not for that verse I probably would.

I try and draw a picture of hell in light of all the facts. I look at how Jesus spoke politely / gave the devil the time of day in Matt 4. How He honored the request of the demons to be cast into pigs. How he did not kick, squash or remove the power of the devil when he rebelled. He allowed him to turn into a dragon = allowing him to leave with some dignity. He could have embarrassed him. The devil was promoted and entrusted with higher positions in heaven, not because God was setting him up for a fall, but because he had proven himself as someone worthy of promotion to God. IE, the devil was a good angel. God does not hate the devil. God will keep talking to the devil for all eternity. Many Christians ignore this current reality.

All the evidence points to a God that has not got a morsel of evil thoughts / intentions / plans within Him. It is quite funny to hear how many teach of a wonderful God past and present but an evil God of the future.

Anyways I believe hell will be a very nice place with a volcano causing a lake of fire somewhere on it. All will get their session in the lake according to their deeds. They live their lives as they wish with God and us overseeing them. We judge the fallen angels. How can we judge the angels in heaven? They are created above us.

Scripture says we will see those in hell and we will not weep for them. Many assume this means God will wipe our tears away. I don't believe that for one second. When in heaven we no longer see through a glass darkly. We will not weep for them because we will know that God is not torturing them but punishing them fairly.

Now many believe that when we live on with Jesus we will not be in heaven or able to travel to other planets ....I parallel this logic to not being free to helping those in hell. That is simply stupidity and assumptions at the maximum. We are currently exploring and trying to settle in space...God is not stopping us. Now God who DIED for us will restrict us in heaven? ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God WILL NOT STOP you or I from travelling to other planets or jumping on His lap in heaven. Likewise God will NOT stop anyone of us from helping whomever we want! I WILL definitely help those in hell if they are being tortured. In fact any Christian giving a fallen angel an unfair judgment will prompt me to visit God and report the numb-nut. But I won't need to because .....God is good. Our IQ is increased in heaven because God has got NOTHING to hide. Because God = good = God = good.

Regarding the saved and angels in heaven....I believe that more angels will rebel in the future. I believe many of us will get tired of praise and worship. I believe many of us will get irritated with each other. But I believe that we will all be in heaven for eternity because just as ''doing X covers a multitude of sins James 5:20'', likewise our commitment to Jesus that got our names written in the lambs book of life covers all we will ever do. Kind of like a wife. She can do whatever she wants to us, but we will always remember her commitment to us the day we got married. If a bully takes a bullet for us, we will never recall or care about him bullying us...and for all eternity we will be his friend ...irrespective of how he treats us on his 'off' days.

We must always remember that a good God gives His creation free will. Free will = good God = free will = good God. There is NO getting away from that reality. Annihilation = NO free will. Forced servitude = NO free will. God will not make us robots, monkeys or angels in heaven = God will not annihilate those in hell. We never lose free will in heaven or hell. We are forever the human race created just beneath the angels.
A creation above a certain intelligence requires free will from a good God. As intelligence = accountability.

Conclusion: We need to look at where the evidence points. Not use our carnal mind to draw conclusions that suggest God is evil. We cannot grasp many things about God. How He came into existence. What His lifespan is. Yet we can boldly conclude that because He is omniscient there is no such thing as free will....when the evidence points to God of the universe limiting His omnipotence for us on the cross. We need to give God the benefit of the doubt and assume the best about the future. The only guaranteed is that wolves will not live with lambs.

 

[StarTemple]

Yes, very logical and yet scriptural. I guess its time to dump the Christian "hell-fire" "eternal torment" heresy of the Dark Ages that came in in that period when man really was in a truly darker age certainly aided little by the Papacy. It seems "hell fire" is also a nice tool for use of fear to coerce others. In any event, it seems infantile, imo, and some are moving on to the meaning of the word "death", it is not another form of "life", even in "hell fire".

 

[leroycimmarron]

This is the way I see it. I have heard this theory before and I have thought about it I came to a conclusion wther you like it or no thats up to you. hell is real, Hell is bad wether its 1 second then you burn up, 56 years, 17 million year or for eternity. It doesn't really matter. Hell is bad I dont wanna go there and dont want others to go. That is just what I came up with theres my two cents.

Yes, very logical and yet scriptural. I guess its time to dump the Christian "hell-fire" "eternal torment" heresy of the Dark Ages that came in in that period when man really was in a truly darker age certainly aided little by the Papacy. It seems "hell fire" is also a nice tool for use of fear to coerce others. In any event, it seems infantile, imo, and some are moving on to the meaning of the word "death", it is not another form of "life", even in "hell fire".

This is off topic but I am sick of people bashing the Middle Ages. Medieval times were a great time for the Christian faith and im not even Catholic. Philosopher,authors and many influential Christian people came from this time. So please dont put down thses great historical figures.

 

[Wormwood]

Agreed Leroy,

Hell is no place you want to be. Although I believe it to be eternal, it is clearly portrayed as a place to be avoided by Jesus regardless of a person's view. Also, amen to the view on the Middle Ages. We always tend to look back in history and allow a few stories to characterize the entire age (witch burning, etc.), when in reality, these stories are few and far between and do not reflect the thinking of most people in that era. There were brilliant people who lived during that time who were great Christians and of whom we are indebted. Welcome to CB!

 

[leroycimmarron]

Thank you Wormwood for your welcome and your thoughts. I agree people today are quick to judge the people of the past.

 

[rockytopva]

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25:30
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:46

Our lifespan is too small to play around with things eternal.

 

[ATP]

My Interpretation

1. Mark 9:47 mentions a place - Hell
2. Mark 9:48 mentions the condition of Hell - worm does not die/fire not quenced
3. Matt 25:46 Punishment is the result of being judged. Punishment involves consciousness.
4. Rev 20:12-15 - Punishment is the result of being judged. Punishment involves consciousness.
5. Rev 20:10 - The devil is thrown in first, then Rev 20:12-15 nonbelievers are also thrown in the same place as the devil.
5. Rev 20:10 - Torment involves consciousness where the devil and nonbelievers will be. Forever and ever means eternal.

Mark 9:42-48 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44]b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,

and the fire is not quenched.’

Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I'm new here, thank you for having me. - ATP

 

[Wormwood]

Glad to have you! I agree!

 

[KingJ]

Guys, it is easy to quote scripture on hell and read / believe it 'as is'. But HOW are you any different from the devil tempting Jesus to jump when you exclude scripture like Matt 5:44 and Rom 2:6?

God does not change, amen? God shall and wants us to love our enemies today and tomorrow, amen? So....How in your mind do you see God fulfilling Matt 5:44 in the future / after the white throne judgment? Do you ''''really''' believe eternity in fire = loving enemies? Really...........???????

This is so funny. ''I believe in a good, merciful and longsuffering God who died for me, instructs me to turn the left cheek, not resist an evil person, love my enemies, do unto others as I want done unto me........and will *cough*.......torture His enemies in hell for eternity''.

Your renewed Christian heart is fine with seeing your enemy burn for eternity? If that is the case, then God is good + an evil mental case on punishment and all us Christians with professed new hearts should be burdened to take them water and sun cream. It is a joke that any Christian be able to drink tea and enjoy a banquet in heaven whilst our enemies are ''suffering unjustly'' in fire! When Jesus suffered for only a day for all our sins.

 

[Wormwood]

KingJ,

God's commands us not to judge. That does not mean He will not judge. You are confusing the commands a Holy and Almighty God makes of a sinful and finite people with God's own prerogative. Even a cursory reading of the OT shows that God judges the wicked and punishes his enemies. The same could be said of the NT. Our God is a consuming fire.

“See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.” (Hebrews 12:25, ESV)

The Scriptures are full of promises that God will judge and condemn the evildoer. Jesus makes this very clear.

““Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”” (Matthew 11:21–24, ESV)

So, according to your hermeneutics, are you saying that Jesus is not being truthful here? If God must love his enemies, why would he pronounce woes on them an claim that the day of judgment would be such a horrible day for these people? Is it really going to be a day of woe, or is God going to surprise these evil people on the day of judgment with a bouquet of flowers in love for them? Either Jesus is telling the truth or he is not.

I don't think anyone in this discussion has said the want anyone to burn for eternity. It is one thing to claim that the Scriptures teach an eternal suffering for the enemies of God and another to say we want someone to suffer eternally. You are claiming we have done the latter and that is not true.

Finally, Scriptures make it clear why we are to love and pray for our enemies. We do this because we ourselves are saved by grace strive to encourage people to respond to God's grace while there is time. Moreover, we do this because we are not the Judge. God is the Judge. Do not mistake our call to not judge with God's unwillingness to judge. The verses you are pointed to are easily reconcilable with a view of divine judgment and a day of wrath. We are neither in the place or have the perspective for proper judgment. We are called to defer that to the Lord and his wrath against those who do evil.

“Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”” (Romans 12:16–19, ESV)

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

1. God's commands us not to judge. That does not mean He will not judge. You are confusing the commands a Holy and Almighty God makes of a sinful and finite people with God's own prerogative.

2. Even a cursory reading of the OT shows that God judges the wicked and punishes his enemies. The same could be said of the NT. Our God is a consuming fire.

3. The Scriptures are full of promises that God will judge and condemn the evildoer. Jesus makes this very clear.

4. So, according to your hermeneutics, are you saying that Jesus is not being truthful here? If God must love his enemies, why would he pronounce woes on them and claim that the day of judgment would be such a horrible day for these people? Is it really going to be a day of woe, or is God going to surprise these evil people on the day of judgment with a bouquet of flowers in love for them? Either Jesus is telling the truth or he is not.

5. I don't think anyone in this discussion has said the want anyone to burn for eternity. It is one thing to claim that the Scriptures teach an eternal suffering for the enemies of God and another to say we want someone to suffer eternally. You are claiming we have done the latter and that is not true.

6. Finally, Scriptures make it clear why we are to love and pray for our enemies. We do this because we ourselves are saved by grace strive to encourage people to respond to God's grace while there is time. Moreover, we do this because we are not the Judge. God is the Judge. Do not mistake our call to not judge with God's unwillingness to judge. The verses you are pointed to are easily reconcilable with a view of divine judgment and a day of wrath. We are neither in the place or have the perspective for proper judgment. We are called to defer that to the Lord and his wrath against those who do evil.

1. He commands us to judge all things 1 Cor 2:15 and 1 Cor 6:3. He wants us to taste and see that He is good Psalm 34:8. He wants us to give thanks because He is good Psalm 136:1.

All scripture is physical proof of God not trying be a Houdini in His dealings with us. He is an open book with nothing to hide. He wants us to judge / discern / know / see / taste that He is good. He wants us to see that He put plagues on the Egyptians. A mild harassment to nudge them in the right direction / change their hearts. He wants us to see that He tried everything with Sodom and Gomorrah and in the end He had no choice but to destroy them and it was done swiftly, not over many years of cruel torture. Think even on those who get sores in the tribulation for killing God's people. Sores = visual abhorrence / not inner unseen pain.

2. The OT shows me that He tolerates the wicked for as long as possible and if He must, He destroys them instantly. Jonah did not want to visit Nineveh because he knew God would be merciful and longsuffering Jonah 4:2. Jonah wanted them dead.

3. I don't disagree. My argument is: why do we assume the absolute worst about God in the largely unknown future? We serve a good God. He is good in the past. He is good now. It '''should'' follow that He will be good in the future. Good being something we can agree on and judge.

4. There is no argument that there will be a period of suffering for sins according to works as Jesus suffered for our sins / it pleased God to bruise Him. Thief = 5 mins in fire, murderer 1 hour. Though even the time in actual fire is debatable as death by fire in the OT was the worse form of punishment reserved for sorcerers. There is also no argument that those who love evil > righteousness will be eternally separated as wolves cannot live with lambs. The argument is 100% on torture.

We have to understand that God describes things from His vantage point. The sinner who is happy and enjoying life in his sin with no thought of God is described by God as LOST, DEAD and someone who LOVES death Prov 8:36. He could just as easily say those without His inner peace are burning in fire (feel guilty for their sin / torment).

5. True, NO sane person in the world will ever agree with torture or annihilation coming from a good God. But....are we not naughty for knowingly quoting half truths on hell that imply that? As Christians we should know God is good / God wants us to grasp how great His love is Eph 3:18.

6. We may pray for our enemies to be saved but we love them not only to save them but because that is who we are 2 Cor 5:17.

God says vengeance is mine, when vengeance is really as simple as 'eye for an eye'...as God may consider eye for an eye too harsh for reasons unknown to us or He still wants time to get through to the person.

We will judge angels one-day. We are not and never will be beyond / too dumb to grasp God's judgment / pass a fair sentence ourselves.

Just think about 1 Cor 11:31. If WE can escape God's judgment by judging ourselves, surely we can discern punishment for those that hate God being too extreme / evil.

I am not saying we know better then God. Just that all the evidence points to God dealing with us on our level and giving us brains to be used to logically draw closer to Him / no mystery or trusting He is good needed when we have / use them. In heaven we will grasp that God's punishment is fair because it will be fair. If our current minds see any burning for longer then 10 minutes in hell as unfair, we will think that way in heaven and so too will / does God.

 

[Wormwood]

1. He commands us to judge all things 1 Cor 2:15 and 1 Cor 6:3. He wants us to taste and see that He is good Psalm 34:8. He wants us to give thanks because He is good Psalm 136:1.

All scripture is physical proof of God not trying be a Houdini in His dealings with us. He is an open book with nothing to hide. He wants us to judge / discern / know / see / taste that He is good. He wants us to see that He put plagues on the Egyptians. A mild harassment to nudge them in the right direction / change their hearts. He wants us to see that He tried everything with Sodom and Gomorrah and in the end He had no choice but to destroy them and it was done swiftly, not over many years of cruel torture. Think even on those who get sores in the tribulation for killing God's people. Sores = visual abhorrence / not inner unseen pain.

The judgments approved in 1 Cor. 2:15 and 1 Cor 6:3 are not in the same ballpark of my point. We are called not to set ourselves up as holy standards and base the eternities of others based on our own perceptions or standards. Christ determines people fate...not you or I. 1 Cor. 6 is in reference to rejecting immoral behavior among believers and is not in reference to making judgments about individual's salvation...which was my point. 1 Cor. 2:15 has to do with making determinations about the truth of a message...not making judgments about salvation and punishment which is reserved for God alone. Discernment about the message or appropriate behavior among believers is a far cry from God's judgments concerning their life on the Day of Judgment.

2. The OT shows me that He tolerates the wicked for as long as possible and if He must, He destroys them instantly. Jonah did not want to visit Nineveh because he knew God would be merciful and longsuffering Jonah 4:2. Jonah wanted them dead.

Yes, which proves my point. God does not always express "love" to his enemies. At times, he punishes them severely, even to the point of enslavement to oppressors and brutal death.

I don't disagree. My argument is: why do we assume the absolute worst about God in the largely unknown future? We serve a good God. He is good in the past. He is good now. It '''should'' follow that He will be good in the future. Good being something we can agree on and judge.

I don't assume the worst. I assume God will do what is just. Jesus is the one who speaks of "cutting them to pieces," and places of eternal fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus is the one who spoke about the rich man begging for a drop of water because he was agony in the flames. Not me. If you think this makes God, "the absolute worst" then I think your issue has more to do with what Jesus said than anything.

We have to understand that God describes things from His vantage point. The sinner who is happy and enjoying life in his sin with no thought of God is described by God as LOST, DEAD and someone who LOVES death Prov 8:36. He could just as easily say those without His inner peace are burning in fire (feel guilty for their sin / torment).

I don't understand the comments prior to this. I cant follow what you are trying to say...so I will just respond to this comment. Clearly Jesus speaks of punishment for those who do evil when the master returns. I agree with you that fire and so forth is likely symbolic. Hell fire, outer darkness, being cut to pieces are all phrases used to describe this punishment from God. Clearly fire and darkness seem to be contradictory and the point is that the judgment and punishment exceeds comprehension. However, to suggest that its better to pluck out your eye than face God's judgment is merely referring to a guilty conscience is, hardly believable.

5. True, NO sane person in the world will ever agree with torture or annihilation coming from a good God. But....are we not naughty for knowingly quoting half truths on hell that imply that? As Christians we should know God is good / God wants us to grasp how great His love is Eph 3:18.

You like to point to one attribute of God while ignoring other attributes such as justice, jealousy, consuming fire, judge, holy, Almighty, wrath. God is described as being wrathful over 500x in the OT alone. So who is knowingly quoting half truths? Saying that God is love and ignoring all the other teaching about his character and explicit judgments that result in extreme suffering and death of individuals is inexcusable. Yes, God is great in love, but those who are not in Christ, remain under his wrath.

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36, ESV)

6. We may pray for our enemies to be saved but we love them not only to save them but because that is who we are 2 Cor 5:17.

God says vengeance is mine, when vengeance is really as simple as 'eye for an eye'...as God may consider eye for an eye too harsh for reasons unknown to us or He still wants time to get through to the person.

I don't pretend to think I can plumb the depths of God's incredible love, his awesome holiness and his fearsome judgment and wrath. I just accept what he says and know that his holiness, understanding and power is beyond me. Taking one attribute and using it to dismiss the others is ill-advised. I would prefer to just accept the teaching as true rather than picking and choosing which attributes and passages will nullify the others as mere hyperbole.

 

[KingJ]

1. Yes, which proves my point. God does not always express "love" to his enemies. At times, he punishes them severely, even to the point of enslavement to oppressors and brutal death.

2. I don't assume the worst. I assume God will do what is just. Jesus is the one who speaks of "cutting them to pieces," and places of eternal fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus is the one who spoke about the rich man begging for a drop of water because he was agony in the flames. Not me. If you think this makes God, "the absolute worst" then I think your issue has more to do with what Jesus said than anything.

3. I don't understand the comments prior to this. I cant follow what you are trying to say...so I will just respond to this comment. Clearly Jesus speaks of punishment for those who do evil when the master returns. I agree with you that fire and so forth is likely symbolic. Hell fire, outer darkness, being cut to pieces are all phrases used to describe this punishment from God. Clearly fire and darkness seem to be contradictory and the point is that the judgment and punishment exceeds comprehension. However, to suggest that its better to pluck out your eye than face God's judgment is merely referring to a guilty conscience is, hardly believable.

4. You like to point to one attribute of God while ignoring other attributes such as justice, jealousy, consuming fire, judge, holy, Almighty, wrath. God is described as being wrathful over 500x in the OT alone. So who is knowingly quoting half truths? Saying that God is love and ignoring all the other teaching about his character and explicit judgments that result in extreme suffering and death of individuals is inexcusable. Yes, God is great in love, but those who are not in Christ, remain under his wrath.

1. We need to look deeper. Enslavement to oppressors and plagues is loving. Its God turning up the heat / trying to prompt us to change for the better. God always expresses love to His enemies.

- Has God ever used the brazen bull, impaling, the rack or the head crusher on His enemies?
- Did God not honour the request of the demons to be cast into pigs?
- Was God rude to the devil in the wilderness? Did He not speak politely and entertain him on more then one occasion...

A quick / ish death for an enemy beyond hope of changing is loving them.

2. Jesus also said Matt 5:44. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is interesting. Both are actions Oscar Pretorius did in court / they can both be from torment / regret.

I have no problem with anything Jesus said. I take those scriptures and add Matt 5:44 and the rest of scripture to them.

3. I agree with what you said on plucking the eye out. I believe that when we no longer see through a glass darkly, those in hell will fully grasp their evil and the resulting consequence of eternal banishment and grasp what they have lost (heaven, God) and that is terrible. Terrible is not torture.

4. I don't ignore any attribute of God. God is just = 5 minutes in fire for a thief. 10 minutes for a murderer. God is wrathful = Yes, He will not tolerate wolves with lambs. He removes the wolves beyond hope of changing and they will be eternally separated from lambs.

What everyone seems to be ignoring is Matt 5:44. It implies that even though the evil are separated, that God not give up treating them as well as can be.

Example: How do you love the guy in prison who raped your daughter? Do you just say I forgive you? Or is loving him not, visiting him and making sure is doing well? Not himself being raped. Offer to look after his family and investments. Bring him cigarettes.

God loves His enemies = an attribute that remains with God and us 'Christians' for all eternity.

 

[Wormwood]

1. We need to look deeper. Enslavement to oppressors and plagues is loving. Its God turning up the heat / trying to prompt us to change for the better. God always expresses love to His enemies

I think Sodom and Gomorrah would contest this point, as well as the Israelites who were taken captive by the Assyrians.

Was God rude to the devil in the wilderness? Did He not speak politely and entertain him on more then one occasion...

Is this a serious question?

2. Jesus also said Matt 5:44. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is interesting. Both are actions Oscar Pretorius did in court / they can both be from torment / regret.

I have no problem with anything Jesus said. I take those scriptures and add Matt 5:44 and the rest of scripture to them.

And what are they regretting? That God is loving them and being polite to them as his enemies? There is no consistency in your contentions.

3. I agree with what you said on plucking the eye out. I believe that when we no longer see through a glass darkly, those in hell will fully grasp their evil and the resulting consequence of eternal banishment and grasp what they have lost (heaven, God) and that is terrible. Terrible is not torture.

So now you are in agreement that hell is eternal banishment. I thought you said God doesn't punish eternally. What exactly do you think this punishment entails?

4. I don't ignore any attribute of God. God is just = 5 minutes in fire for a thief. 10 minutes for a murderer. God is wrathful = Yes, He will not tolerate wolves with lambs. He removes the wolves beyond hope of changing and they will be eternally separated from lambs.

Where are you getting these sentences? Since when do sinful humans have the proper perspective by which to assign God's punishment to others. I think you are way out of line here.

What everyone seems to be ignoring is Matt 5:44. It implies that even though the evil are separated, that God not give up treating them as well as can be.

What I think you are ignoring is that this text has nothing to do with God's ultimate judgment on a human being.

I think what is clear here is that you are allowing your own sense of justice to filter what texts you will accept and how you will interpret them. God possesses a holiness that is beyond what we can even fathom. This is like one evil dictator determining the how badly another evil dictator should be punished for their crime. I will defer justice to God and his decrees, not what I deem most appropriate from my own sinful and limited perspective.

 

[KingJ]

1. I think Sodom and Gomorrah would contest this point, as well as the Israelites who were taken captive by the Assyrians.


2. And what are they regretting? That God is loving them and being polite to them as his enemies? There is no consistency in your contentions.


3. So now you are in agreement that hell is eternal banishment. I thought you said God doesn't punish eternally. What exactly do you think this punishment entails?


4. Where are you getting these sentences? Since when do sinful humans have the proper perspective by which to assign God's punishment to others. I think you are way out of line here.


5. What I think you are ignoring is that this text has nothing to do with God's ultimate judgment on a human being.

6. I think what is clear here is that you are allowing your own sense of justice to filter what texts you will accept and how you will interpret them. God possesses a holiness that is beyond what we can even fathom. This is like one evil dictator determining the how badly another evil dictator should be punished for their crime. I will defer justice to God and his decrees, not what I deem most appropriate from my own sinful and limited perspective.

1. There are a few theories on how Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. I have been doing some research . What is interesting is that whether it was a volcano, earthquake, lighting torrent or literally brimstone and fire, that all those types result in a pretty quick death for all in the city. What seals the deal for me though is this scripture 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Basically, their destruction was ''done properly''. It was not like the unrefined chemical gas Saddam fired on the Kurds.

Even the flood is a quick / ish death.

The Assyrian captivity and something like what happened to Job are completely separate issues. This is God's treatment / trials on His people, not His enemies.

2. Regret from when they grasp their evil perhaps? I guess regret is debatable. Oscar could have been regretting getting caught / being so silly.

3. I have never said its not eternal banishment. Eternal punishment = eternal banishment + maybe some temporary suffering. My only argument is on torture.

4. I have already quoted scripture that clearly says ''He wants us to see / taste that He is good''. This will only increase in heaven. Nobody will say, oh boy God is actually evil. If God didn't want us to judge / discern / taste and see that He is just and good, He would make us monkeys in heaven and not remove the ''seeing through a glass darkly''.

5. This is where we disagree 100%. This verse has EVERYTHING to do with their punishment. Just consider how the Geneva convention was setup for the better (not even loving) treatment of enemies. Enemies need to be rounded up, removed of their weapons and then looked after in humane concentration camps. Never torture or annihilation.

6. That's fair. But would you really, eternally serve a God that you knew was torturing your unsaved wife and kids in hell? I wouldn't. The very reason I am still a Christian is because I know God is good. I hate what He hates. He hates what is evil. We are accusing God of doing the very thing He hates with His enemies.

 

[kbrenton]

Hi,

Although I am not as versed on the subject as most responses God is first and for most just and to be taken at His word: which clearly states when you die you will go to heaven or hell and after Jesus returns all will be judged for actions iin life. To me that means when Christ, returns wwhether in heaven or hell you will be given according to what you gave. In heaven, rewarded, in hell a be you will not be given the hottest spot in the lake but it is eternal whatever you are given. If after a while in hell you die and are no more then what incentive is there to obey God and do His will. If separation is temporary and then we die and are no more why obey, anyone can suffer if they know itis not forever. I think the choices we make in life have eternal consequences afterward; God is clear about that, and it does not make Him evil, it makes Him true to His word and the choice is ours and it is eternal.

God Bless, Kim

 

[Wormwood]

KingJ,

1. You are totally missing the point. You said that God used judgment to change us for the better. God completely destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He took the northern Kingdom to captivity, NEVER TO RETURN. These judgments were final. There was no happy ending for these people. You keep moving the goalposts in your comments.

2. Yeah, well Jesus' language does not suggest anything like their regret is that they were silly. I think that is quite clear. Servants being bound and thrust into outer darkness leaves no such impression. Most of your views seem to be based in your imagination, not the teaching of the Bible.

3. I wont debate the fact that hell is eternal torture. Perhaps there is temporary suffering and eternal banishment from the presence of God. Yes, that seems pretty horrible. You have been implying that God will ultimately love all his enemies and that is what I am contesting. There is no such indication in the Bible. His judgment is final and the consequences are eternal.

4. I don't think God is evil. If someone murders another person, it is evil if the Judge does not execute righteous judgment. My point is that we have no concept of what holiness and righteousness truly is, which is why we should not put ourselves in God's position to determine what is "just." I will just defer to his Word concerning the severity sins judgment before a holy God.

5. What does the Geneva convention have to do with Matthew 5:44, and what does the Geneva convention have to do with God's ultimate judgment on the world?

6. I willingly serve a God who gave his son on my behalf to save me from what is my just punishment before a holy God. I have never seen what and Almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and completely Holy God looks like. I am sure when I see Him, like all others, I will fall on my face in anguish over my sin and recognize the true depth of God's grace in Christ and the wretchedness of my sin..and the sin of others as well. I trust that none of us will be astonished at God's judgment, but as in Revelation, we will proclaim how just and righteous is God's wrath and judgment.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

1. You are totally missing the point. You said that God used judgment to change us for the better. God completely destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He took the northern Kingdom to captivity, NEVER TO RETURN. These judgments were final. There was no happy ending for these people. You keep moving the goalposts in your comments.

2. Yeah, well Jesus' language does not suggest anything like their regret is that they were silly. I think that is quite clear. Servants being bound and thrust into outer darkness leaves no such impression. Most of your views seem to be based in your imagination, not the teaching of the Bible.

3. I wont debate the fact that hell is eternal torture. Perhaps there is temporary suffering and eternal banishment from the presence of God. Yes, that seems pretty horrible. You have been implying that God will ultimately love all his enemies and that is what I am contesting. There is no such indication in the Bible. His judgment is final and the consequences are eternal.

4. I don't think God is evil. If someone murders another person, it is evil if the Judge does not execute righteous judgment. My point is that we have no concept of what holiness and righteousness truly is, which is why we should not put ourselves in God's position to determine what is "just." I will just defer to his Word concerning the severity sins judgment before a holy God.

5. What does the Geneva convention have to do with Matthew 5:44, and what does the Geneva convention have to do with God's ultimate judgment on the world?

6. I willingly serve a God who gave his son on my behalf to save me from what is my just punishment before a holy God. I have never seen what and Almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and completely Holy God looks like. I am sure when I see Him, like all others, I will fall on my face in anguish over my sin and recognize the true depth of God's grace in Christ and the wretchedness of my sin..and the sin of others as well. I trust that none of us will be astonished at God's judgment, but as in Revelation, we will proclaim how just and righteous is God's wrath and judgment.

1. I don't think you reading my posts properly. My only point here is that scripture past and present point to God's MOST ferocious display of wrath equaling swift death not on par with a brazen bull / impaling (torturous) experience. So why in the universe do '''we''' ever suggest torture in the future / taking burning in fire as literal. Now granted, you said you don't take the fire as literal. But that is not the opinion of those candidly quoting only scripture speaking of such.

We can and must look at all scripture in determining what awaits God's enemies in hell. The fact that past and present equals no torture is a significant fact that cannot be ignored.

2. Yes we agree. God will not cast Oscar into hell for being silly. People go to hell because they love the darkness / hate the light John 3:19.

3. ''You have been implying that God will ultimately love all his enemies and that is what I am contesting'' Yes I have. As much as is possible. Isn't that what Matt 5:44 says we must do? Add that to Mal 3:6 (God does not change) and we have what should be painfully obvious to us all.

4. ''My point is that we have no concept of what holiness and righteousness truly is''. This I disagree with completely. We have 1 Cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? and 1 Cor 6:3. If you reject that well then Paul is clear that we can judge ourselves and escape God's judgment 1 Cor 11:31. Heck if we had no clue, why do some of us go to hell in the first place?

5. Everything. If unsaved humans can treat enemies humanely, how much more us? How much more God?

6. Well then you and I differ. I will not fall on my face willingly if God is not good. He can be all powerful etc etc.....but if I judge evil with the mind He gave me in the first place....(just further evidence He will pass our judgment) He will have to force me to bow. Something we expect of the devil. See where a ferocious idea of hell leads us?
The wise fear God and hell. We don't want to be without God. We know God is good. We love what is good and hate what is evil. The wicked don't. To them hell is simply going to be a place of wolves with wolves. No lambs. No torture. Fresh air. Fresh food. Things to do. Things to invent. Sure I am guessing here, but don't we keep prisoners busy? How much more God?