- Oct 13, 2014
- 27
- 13
- 0
Hi "Kingj" hope you are having a good day. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.
Anyway I wanted to point out one thing... I still cannot find a place even in Revelation where it says that humans will be tormented forever. I do see where it says the devil and the beast and the false prophet will be but I don't see any reason to think that those are humans since the devil isn't and the 1st beast comes up out of the pit and the 2nd beast ( false prophet) is said to be like the first beast. Fallen angles are imprisioned in the pit. So I don't see any evidence of Humans here. Then later it does indeed say that people will be cast into the Lake of fire also but it fails to tell us how long they will be there. I would believe that people will be tormented forever if someone could show me a verse that plainly says that but I just can't find one and I want to give God the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.
If you have time today, would you mind explaining what your view is regarding the unsaved. If you don't believe in either eternal torment or annihilation then what exactly is your view? I am guessing that it is simply that lost people experience unhappiness here on earth for being separated from God? That is certainly true but is there more to it than that? Or if it is that the unsaved will be alone forever separated from God and everyone but won't be tormented in any other way that just being separated... If that is it then that is actually a million times worse than annihilation. I would much rather not exist than be put in a little dark room by myself for eternity. Or are you teaching universalism? I am just curious. Either way I think neither one of us takes Revelation to be completely literal.
Thanks so much for your patience and kindness. Blessings...
I wanted to say one more thing.... Death never just meant separation from God. In Genesis 3:17 God said to Adam "because you have heeded the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree... Cursed is the ground....dust you are and to dust you shall return."
There are several curses in that passage but the last part of the passage about curses is that they would return to dust.
Also, another result of Adam and Eve's sin is that they were sent out of the Garden lest they continue to eat of the tree of life and live forever. "and now lest he (Adam) put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden
So the result of Adam's sin was that he was cut off from the tree of life and that resulted in aging and death. So the results of Adam's sin was certainly a break in fellowship with God but was also being cut off from the tree of life so that they couldn't keep living... and they would die and return to the dust. You see, the wages of sin is death. Not just separation but eventually ceasing to continue on as functioning and thinking beings. So when the Lord said to Adam and Eve that in the day that they ate of the fruit they would die that clearly just means that on that day they lost access to the tree of life and so would die. Besides the Hebrew word for "day" is Yom and it is used 65 times in the old testament to mean period of time. Many, many times it does not mean a literal 24 hour period.
Also if God exclusively meant that separation and nothing more was the punishment for sin then why didn't he just tell Adam that if you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall be separated from Me? There is a hebrew word for separation. He said death because that covered all of the aspects of the punishment not just the separation part. Death included both being separated from God spiritually and also being cut off of the tree of life and not being able to continue forever and thus ceasing to function mentally and physically. The concept of a resurrection wasn't clear until later. Job asked the question "If a man dies shall he live again?"
Anyway I wanted to point out one thing... I still cannot find a place even in Revelation where it says that humans will be tormented forever. I do see where it says the devil and the beast and the false prophet will be but I don't see any reason to think that those are humans since the devil isn't and the 1st beast comes up out of the pit and the 2nd beast ( false prophet) is said to be like the first beast. Fallen angles are imprisioned in the pit. So I don't see any evidence of Humans here. Then later it does indeed say that people will be cast into the Lake of fire also but it fails to tell us how long they will be there. I would believe that people will be tormented forever if someone could show me a verse that plainly says that but I just can't find one and I want to give God the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.
If you have time today, would you mind explaining what your view is regarding the unsaved. If you don't believe in either eternal torment or annihilation then what exactly is your view? I am guessing that it is simply that lost people experience unhappiness here on earth for being separated from God? That is certainly true but is there more to it than that? Or if it is that the unsaved will be alone forever separated from God and everyone but won't be tormented in any other way that just being separated... If that is it then that is actually a million times worse than annihilation. I would much rather not exist than be put in a little dark room by myself for eternity. Or are you teaching universalism? I am just curious. Either way I think neither one of us takes Revelation to be completely literal.
Thanks so much for your patience and kindness. Blessings...
I wanted to say one more thing.... Death never just meant separation from God. In Genesis 3:17 God said to Adam "because you have heeded the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree... Cursed is the ground....dust you are and to dust you shall return."
There are several curses in that passage but the last part of the passage about curses is that they would return to dust.
Also, another result of Adam and Eve's sin is that they were sent out of the Garden lest they continue to eat of the tree of life and live forever. "and now lest he (Adam) put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden
So the result of Adam's sin was that he was cut off from the tree of life and that resulted in aging and death. So the results of Adam's sin was certainly a break in fellowship with God but was also being cut off from the tree of life so that they couldn't keep living... and they would die and return to the dust. You see, the wages of sin is death. Not just separation but eventually ceasing to continue on as functioning and thinking beings. So when the Lord said to Adam and Eve that in the day that they ate of the fruit they would die that clearly just means that on that day they lost access to the tree of life and so would die. Besides the Hebrew word for "day" is Yom and it is used 65 times in the old testament to mean period of time. Many, many times it does not mean a literal 24 hour period.
Also if God exclusively meant that separation and nothing more was the punishment for sin then why didn't he just tell Adam that if you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall be separated from Me? There is a hebrew word for separation. He said death because that covered all of the aspects of the punishment not just the separation part. Death included both being separated from God spiritually and also being cut off of the tree of life and not being able to continue forever and thus ceasing to function mentally and physically. The concept of a resurrection wasn't clear until later. Job asked the question "If a man dies shall he live again?"