Do you speak against "Sinlessness"?

[1stCenturyLady]

Some call Sinlessness "Sinless Perfection" when from day one of being born again of the Spirit that person has been cleansed of ALL Unrighteousness. That person is sinless, because not only does Christ take away our past sins (2 Peter 1:9) but the desire to sin from the sin nature has also been taken away. Our sin nature called the old man has not only been crucified but resurrected sinless. Romans 6:5-7. 1 John 3:1-24, John 8:32-36.

Perfection on the other hand is not from day one, so the phrase "sinless perfection" does not exist until possibly years and years away from walking in the Spirit and becoming more and more into the image of Christ Romans 8:29. Perfection has to do with becoming mature in all of the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows the result is never stumbling.

John 15:1-4 shows the Father as the vinegrower of fruit. Notice we are CLEAN. So we are deemed sinless of lawlessness from day one even though our fruit of the Spirit has just been planted and is deemed separate from the major sins of lawlessness.

The natural mind of the majority of people in the church, scoff and laugh at this doctrine of Jesus Christ believing sinlessness is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Samples of False Doctrines by misinterpreting scripture.:
Christians will always sin and to say you're sinless is lying to yourself, 1 John 1:8 and 10, Romans 7:14-25.
We will not be free from sin until we leave these bodies of flesh. Romans 8:10.

 

[Nancy]

Some call Sinlessness "Sinless Perfection" when from day one of being born again of the Spirit that person has been cleansed of ALL Unrighteousness. That person is sinless, because not only does Christ take away our past sins (2 Peter 1:9) but the desire to sin from the sin nature has also been taken away. Our sin nature called the old man has not only been crucified but resurrected sinless. Romans 6:5-7. 1 John 3:1-24, John 8:32-36.

Perfection on the other hand is not from day one, so the phrase "sinless perfection" does not exist until possibly years and years away from walking in the Spirit and becoming more and more into the image of Christ Romans 8:29. Perfection has to do with becoming mature in all of the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows the result is never stumbling.

John 15:1-4 shows the Father as the vinegrower of fruit. Notice we are CLEAN. So we are deemed sinless of lawlessness from day one even though our fruit of the Spirit has just been planted and is deemed separate from the major sins of lawlessness.

The natural mind of the majority of people in the church, scoff and laugh at this doctrine of Jesus Christ believing sinlessness is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Samples of False Doctrines by misinterpreting scripture.:
Christians will always sin and to say you're sinless is lying to yourself, 1 John 1:8 and 10, Romans 7:14-25.
We will not be free from sin until we leave these bodies of flesh. Romans 8:10.

Hey sister,

• Did Jesus make you sinless? Yes​

• Is 1 John 1:9 to be used multiple times? If it is an everyday thing, then I do not believe that person has the Spirit of God. But then as you have pointed to His word: "there are sins unto death and sins not unto death"​

• Is it necessary to receive the Holy Spirit to be saved? ​

• Yes. We are "none of His" unless we do have His Spirit. ​

• Romans 8:9-1
  

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  ​

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hey sister,

• Did Jesus make you sinless? Yes​

• Is 1 John 1:9 to be used multiple times? If it is an everyday thing, then I do not believe that person has the Spirit of God. But then as you have pointed to His word: "there are sins unto death and sins not unto death"​

• Is it necessary to receive the Holy Spirit to be saved? ​

• Yes. We are "none of His" unless we do have His Spirit. ​

• Romans 8:9-1​

  ​

Did Jesus make you sinless? Yes. That is correct. But how many people believe Jesus wasn't able to make us sinless without our help? I've always heard it preached that repentance is us turning away from sin. But that is works and we are setting ourselves up for failure with that belief. True repentance is telling ourselves the truth, that we enjoy our sin too much to stop, so PLEASE God, do something radical in me to destroy these lawless desires! THAT is when all pride is gone, and like Paul recognize that we ourselves are wretched without His Spirit, and Jesus will answer. When I gave up and did that back in 1977, I felt a great heaviness physically leave my body and I felt light as a feather. Also that burning desire was GONE!

1 John 1:9 is actually John's version of Peter's Acts 2:38 "Repent...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So how many times do we need to repent to be born again and filled with the Spirit? Once!!!

Yes, Romans 8:9 is correct.

 

[Nancy]

Did Jesus make you sinless? Yes. That is correct. But how many people believe Jesus wasn't able to make us sinless without our help? I've always heard it preached that repentance is us turning away from sin. But that is works and we are setting ourselves up for failure with that belief. True repentance is telling ourselves the truth, that we enjoy our sin too much to stop, so PLEASE God, do something radical in me to destroy these lawless desires! THAT is when all pride is gone, and like Paul recognize that we ourselves are wretched without His Spirit, and Jesus will answer. When I gave up and did that back in 1977, I felt a great heaviness physically leave my body and I felt light as a feather. Also that burning desire was GONE!

1 John 1:9 is actually John's version of Peter's Acts 2:38 "Repent...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So how many times do we need to repent to be born again and filled with the Spirit? Once!!!

Yes, Romans 8:9 is correct.

Yes, once.
After thinking about this for several years because of one of your posts. I thank God that He instantly took away the desire to sin sins "leading to death" and put a very strong desire in me to seek Him. Just knowing that I could never go back to that life and circle of friends (that was a tough one) it would so disappoint The Father that I let Satan take me back there, and can you imagine the conscience that would condemn me?! Zero desire there...

 

[marks]

to say you're sinless is lying to yourself,

This is actually a real thing. People do lie to themselves and others. Personally I've learned to pay more attention to how people act, and how they treat the Scriptures, and others, then the claims they make for themself.

I've not come across a single person who has on the one hand claimed sinlessness, who hasn't on the other hand, shown how it's not so for them. Actions and words. If they aren't in harmony, then what?

Or the other thing I see is a redefinition of sin, actually claiming that some sins don't count towards their sinlessless. I don't buy into that for a moment!

I believe we can live without sin by the power of God. And at the same time, I know that Paul himself wouldn't say he was sinless, rather, he wrote that only Jesus Christ knows us well enough to judge us, and that we are not fit judges of ourselves. I certainly am not different from that!

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Or the other thing I see is a redefinition of sin, actually claiming that some sins don't count towards their sinlessless. I don't buy into that for a moment!

There are two categories of the unsaved, and two of the saved in Scripture.

Revelation 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

The two of the unsaved are shown in Scripture as getting a few stripes, and others who are worse getting many stripes.
The two of the saved are ones who keeps the commandments of God and are righteous; and then those that can ALSO not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. James 3:2.

marks, ponder John 15:1-4 and see that Jesus calls us CLEAN even though He is still working on making our fruit larger through pruning. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. I have to say He's not done with me yet to be holy. But I owe it all to Jesus for making me righteous day one of becoming born again.

 

[MatthewG]

@1stCenturyLady,

I guess I do speak against sinless perfection.

It's perplexing.

With Christ in someone, and a person abides in him, they are actively allowing the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God to come through them because they are being lead by the spirit, perhaps they pray with someone, or perhaps they paraphrase something from the bible for someone to think about, maybe it is an encouragement, maybe it is being sad with a person who is sad, maybe it is a truth that was hard to tell someone but it would prove either beneficial to the hearer or not, however it all comes by and through the heavenly means, from God to you by and through you, in faith, to live by the spirit. (You know what it produces already).

However, their flesh will never learn heavenly ways - while their soul (mind/will/emotions) can be changes to heavenly ways, the flesh is not able to do that, and therefore by our fleshly nature, we will fail, the tales of the old Testament, protest to people like David who was a king, still messed up in what he decided to do, however he still continued to look to God through and through, and it is good to self examine ones of own issues, however they may never clear all the issuses up, by the end of their life.

I still struggle, and have my own issues. To go up to someone and say, I am sinless... just doesn't work, or to make judgements on others for the same things I have done and do, never works out. While one can share how they overcome things in their life by the Lord Yeshua and the Fathers help, it doesn't mean them perfect in the sense by the flesh, but perfect or mature by and through the Spirit, and that takes a lot of time, and somethings the Father in heaven doesn't take away...

Why? To keep a person from becoming prideful.

2 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 I asked the Lord three times to take it away from me. 9 He answered me, “I am all you need. I give you My loving-favor. My power works best in weak people.” I am happy to be weak and have troubles so I can have Christ’s power in me. 10 I receive joy when I am weak. I receive joy when people talk against me and make it hard for me and try to hurt me and make trouble for me. I receive joy when all these things come to me because of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.



By and through the spirit abiding in Christ -> There is no sin coming from Christ because Christ doesn't sin.
By and through the flesh -> It will always miss the mark. Which is why Jesus is needed -> whom hits the mark for us to be made right with God.

 

[marks]

marks, ponder John 15:1-4 and see that Jesus calls us CLEAN even though He is still working on making our fruit larger through pruning.

We just need to be honest with ourselves, so we can be open and honest with God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Revelation 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Being unjust, being filthy,

Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

These are Present Active verbs, "the one being unjust", "the one being filthy". What the person is doing, the child of disobedience.

On the other hand, these are nouns, "he who is righteous", "he who is holy", followed by Passive voice verbs, being made righteous, being made holy.

So to paraphrase this verse,

He who is doing what is wrong, let him do what is wrong still. And one doing what is filthy, let him be filthy still. The righteous, let him be being made righteous still, the holy, let him be being made holy still.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 KJV
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I only see two. The children of disobedience, who are also the children of wrath, and those in Christ Jesus, receiving righteousness and holiness from God through Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@1stCenturyLady,

I guess I do speak against sinless perfection.

It's perplexing.

With Christ in someone, and a person abides in him, they are actively allowing the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God to come through them because they are being lead by the spirit, perhaps they pray with someone, or perhaps they paraphrase something from the bible for someone to think about, maybe it is an encouragement, maybe it is being sad with a person who is sad, maybe it is a truth that was hard to tell someone but it would prove either beneficial to the hearer or not, however it all comes by and through the heavenly means, from God to you by and through you, in faith, to live by the spirit. (You know what it produces already).

However, their flesh will never learn heavenly ways - while their soul (mind/will/emotions) can be changes to heavenly ways, the flesh is not able to do that, and therefore by our fleshly nature, we will fail, the tales of the old Testament, protest to people like David who was a king, still messed up in what he decided to do, however he still continued to look to God through and through, and it is good to self examine ones of own issues, however they may never clear all the issuses up, by the end of their life.

I still struggle, and have my own issues. To go up to someone and say, I am sinless... just doesn't work, or to make judgements on others for the same things I have done and do, never works out. While one can share how they overcome things in their life by the Lord Yeshua and the Fathers help, it doesn't mean them perfect in the sense by the flesh, but perfect or mature by and through the Spirit, and that takes a lot of time, and somethings the Father in heaven doesn't take away...

Why? To keep a person from becoming prideful.

2 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 I asked the Lord three times to take it away from me. 9 He answered me, “I am all you need. I give you My loving-favor. My power works best in weak people.” I am happy to be weak and have troubles so I can have Christ’s power in me. 10 I receive joy when I am weak. I receive joy when people talk against me and make it hard for me and try to hurt me and make trouble for me. I receive joy when all these things come to me because of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.



By and through the spirit abiding in Christ -> There is no sin coming from Christ because Christ doesn't sin.
By and through the flesh -> It will always miss the mark. Which is why Jesus is needed -> whom hits the mark for us to be made right with God.

First off, Jesus made it clear to Nicodemus that we MUST be born again. IOW free from the flesh which causes willful mortal sins. Mortal means death, so going from eternal death to eternal life.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Read this list and see if any of these things describe something you practice.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[MatthewG]

Sure, but my conclusions is still what it is, @1stCenturyLady. You did not really properly address the post, so this is all I have to share with you, I have nothing more to share on the subject.

I am not a non-believer. I am okay with going along with Paul in describing that the sin within him is the cause of his trouble, however the Spirit is what helps our flesh to be held back. It is something that has been believed by myself by the scriptures for many years now, having been a follower of Christ for the past 7 or 8 years now.

If I do practice anything from that list, there is no reason to tell you about them. It's okay for you to know that as a follower of Christ, I will always fail in my flesh cause its going to never be good enough to present to God anyway, instead of practicing things that pertain to the flesh, its better off to change ones mind towards the Heavenly.

Why? Because in the end you will receive a reward from God being your spiritual body, and that will be your home, be it outside the kingdom or inside the Kingdom with God. Some people are faithful, some people are not. Everyone good and bad, believer or not, will all be judged based on the life they live, and I believe that 100%.

 

[MatthewG]

A question I have, is this @1stCenturyLady, have you ever met a sinless person? Or a person who you deem that is alive today, who has not missed the mark of the glory of God? If you sinned one time, does that make you a deemed sinner for life? By the flesh one could say yes. By the spirit one could say not anymore though your flesh does still sin, perhaps it is less than when one was young, however can one claim in front of God, I have not sinned anymore! And this is not an advocation for go and sin and do what you want. Sin is going to lead to death, be it of yourself, or of the spirit within a person, or becoming dead in faith towards God.

 

[Philip James]

repentance is us turning away from sin. But that is works

No, that is this:

But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life;

and it is right! and just! to offer to our Father the best that we have.. that which He in His Goodness gave us..

the Lamb, who ONCE was slain, but now lives forever! The Bread of Life!



Pax et Bonum

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I am okay with going along with Paul in describing that the sin within him is the cause of his trouble

Paul no longer had sin IN him when he wrote that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, that is this:

But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life;

and it is right! and just! to offer to our Father the best that we have.. that which He in His Goodness gave us..

the Lamb, who ONCE was slain, but now lives forever! The Bread of Life!

View attachment 38118

Pax et Bonum

But our best is not good enough. That's the point of Isaiah 64:6 Our own righteousness is like filthy rags. Our ineptness at righteousness is all we have to offer on our own. IOW that is no repentance at all.

 

[Philip James]

protest to people like David who was a king, still messed up in what he decided to do, however he still continued to look to God through and through, and it is good to self examine ones of own issues, however they may never clear all the issuses up, by the end of their life.

Hello Matthew!

Psalm 51

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

But our best is not good enough. That's the point of Isaiah 64:6 Our own righteousness is like filthy rags. Our ineptness at righteousness is all we have to offer on our own. IOW that is no repentance at all.

Dear Lady,

and that is exactly why we dont offer out righteousnes but His! and our sufferings united with His!

Through Him.
With Him,
and in Him,

in the unity of the Holy Spirit,

all Glory and Honour are Yours! Almighty Father!

forever and ever!

You dear Lady,

are also welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come.

Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.'

Pax et Bonum

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Sure, but my conclusions is still what it is, @1stCenturyLady. You did not really properly address the post, so this is all I have to share with you, I have nothing more to share on the subject.

I am not a non-believer. I am okay with going along with Paul in describing that the sin within him is the cause of his trouble, however the Spirit is what helps our flesh to be held back. It is something that has been believed by myself by the scriptures for many years now, having been a follower of Christ for the past 7 or 8 years now.

If I do practice anything from that list, there is no reason to tell you about them. It's okay for you to know that as a follower of Christ, I will always fail in my flesh cause its going to never be good enough to present to God anyway, instead of practicing things that pertain to the flesh, its better off to change ones mind towards the Heavenly.

Why? Because in the end you will receive a reward from God being your spiritual body, and that will be your home, be it outside the kingdom or inside the Kingdom with God. Some people are faithful, some people are not. Everyone good and bad, believer or not, will all be judged based on the life they live, and I believe that 100%.

What's important is to be born again of the Spirit. Period. Jesus will finish what He started then.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Dear Lady,

and that is exactly why we dont offer out righteousnes but His! and our sufferings united with His!

Through Him.
With Him,
and in Him,

in the unity of the Holy Spirit,

all Glory and Honour are Yours! Almighty Father!

forever and ever!

You dear Lady,

are also welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come.

Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.'

Pax et Bonum

For the first 30 years of my life I went to church and learned a lot in the Bible. But I wasn't saved because the baptism of the Holy Spirit was never talked about. After I heard about the baptism of the Holy Spirit I sought it for 6 years and finally was filled in 1977. The difference is like the difference between day and night.

 

[ScottA]

Some call Sinlessness "Sinless Perfection" when from day one of being born again of the Spirit that person has been cleansed of ALL Unrighteousness. That person is sinless, because not only does Christ take away our past sins (2 Peter 1:9) but the desire to sin from the sin nature has also been taken away. Our sin nature called the old man has not only been crucified but resurrected sinless. Romans 6:5-7. 1 John 3:1-24, John 8:32-36.

Perfection on the other hand is not from day one, so the phrase "sinless perfection" does not exist until possibly years and years away from walking in the Spirit and becoming more and more into the image of Christ Romans 8:29. Perfection has to do with becoming mature in all of the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows the result is never stumbling.

John 15:1-4 shows the Father as the vinegrower of fruit. Notice we are CLEAN. So we are deemed sinless of lawlessness from day one even though our fruit of the Spirit has just been planted and is deemed separate from the major sins of lawlessness.

The natural mind of the majority of people in the church, scoff and laugh at this doctrine of Jesus Christ believing sinlessness is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Samples of False Doctrines by misinterpreting scripture.:
Christians will always sin and to say you're sinless is lying to yourself, 1 John 1:8 and 10, Romans 7:14-25.
We will not be free from sin until we leave these bodies of flesh. Romans 8:10.

Your explanation is reasonable, but includes conjecture which is not actually the case.

A better way to understand this age old issue, is to fully consider the tenets of being born again. It is not that same body of sin that is reborn, as in your comment about being crucified "but resurrected sinless." Paul clearly says, "not that body." In reality, each birth produces a different body, the firstborn a body of flesh, and the born again birth a body of the spirit of God.

Once it is understood that we are not talking only of one body, but of two different bodies, the question of sin (or so called continued sin), becomes: Which body are you referring to? Because the nature of those born of sinful flesh is not removed, but replaced with an entirely new spiritual body within ("the kingdom of God is within you").

However, the dilemma comes from seeing the body that is seen still sinning, and not accounting for the unseen body within that is not, nor ever could because it is born of God. So....this entire issue only exists among the those shortsighted enough to have missed all the tenets that were preached, among which are "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit" and "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”