1st problem with O.S.A.S.

[mailmandan]

works alone? no!
Faith alone? no!

Faith and works? no! Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Charity

Deut. 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Who was God addressing here? 4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! Has Israel flawlessly done so? no!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema.

This is 'descriptive' of unbelievers. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (descriptive of believers) 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (descriptive of unbelievers) 1 John 4:19 - We (believers) love Him because He first loved us.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Good works glorify God and we are saved for good works but not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Believers demonstrate their love for the Lord when they "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) his commandments.

Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard

This does not mean flawlessly obey the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law as a legalistic prescription for salvation.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our (believers) hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.

1 cor 13:12 now abide faith, hope, and charity, and the greatest of these is charity.

If someone has saving faith in Christ and has received the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for them to have no love at all. Paul uses hyperbole about understanding all mysteries and all knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having no love. Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love though. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. Paul is stressing the importance of love and that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen (Hebrews 11:1) once we are in the presence of the Lord and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because He has appeared and believers will be with Him forever and love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

If we have faith, then we have hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) So Paul is not teaching that we are saved by faith "plus acts of love/charity/works." All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13) We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[mailmandan]

9

Why weren’t Adam and Eve, the Angels, and Satan not afforded this power?

Because this is a lie from the Once Saved Always Saved crowd.

If you cannot stop sinning now you won’t stop sinning in heaven either; Which is why you will not be allowed in in the first place!

Because after Christ took away your old sins you decided to keep adding new sins.

Straw man argument. Do you claim to be without sin? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

When OSAS folks say "saved," they mean "guaranteed salvation," don't they?

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

[mailmandan]

..One could say because one was, religious they were Saved? but that's not true at all! I was no longer religious? I did not need religion, I had Jesus Christ! and Jesus Christ has me..

Sadly, there are many people who are "religious, but not right with God." Prior to becoming born again I was one of those people. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[RedFan]

I don’t speak Greek.

Then you are at the mercy of the translator of your particular version of the NT. Would you rather be told by the translator what Paul meant; or be told what Paul said? Are you willing to allow the translator’s personal choice of words to slant Paul's meaning?

Paul's word σῳζομένοις in 1 Cor. 1:18 and 2 Cor. 2:15 is translated "being saved" by the NIV, ESV, NASB, NET, RSV and NRSV, among others. The KJV renders it as "saved" -- despite σῳζομένοις being a present participle. Which translation is more faithful to the original Greek here? It takes a serious student of Greek grammar to understand whether all of these newer translations are correct -- and a fool to dismiss them all as incorrect without at least considering that grammar.

I suppose you could always pick a translation that comports with your preconceived notions -- but that would be reasoning the matter backwards.

 

[Taken]

When OSAS folks say "saved," they mean "guaranteed salvation," don't they?

No. A guarantee is an assuredness TO receive salvation.

OSAS ~ means ONCE salvation IS received that salvation can not be Lost.

Salvation is a Gift.
Once a person receives the Gift, that Gift can not become removed.

It’s a parallel to marriage, joining together.
Earthly men and women, “practice” being joined together.
Men and women, meet, learn about one another, make decisions if they want to be joined, commit only to one another, Stay together, or in some cases renege on their Commitment, leave one another.

It’s a preparation, trial run so to speak, for hearing about the Heavenly God, learning Gods Wants to be Joined with each person, deciding if they want to be joined with the Heavenly God, declaring a commitment TO the Heavenly God...

(And the Heavenly God searches their hearts IF their declaration BE TRUE.....and IF ‘heartfully’ True)
Once and Forever, that individual and God become adjoined.

(And IF their declaration BE A heartful confessed Lie....they have LIED To God...and no adjoining occurs or shall ever occur).

(And IF their declaration BE NOT from the Heart....no adjoining occurs).

* Once adjoined WITH God, there is no leaving, reneging.
* The adjoining IS FOREVER and KEPT FOREVER BY the POWER of God. Ie OSAS.

 

[RedFan]

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Thanks for this. So if you are speaking for all OSAS folks, then the answer to my question is Yes, "saved" means "guaranteed salvation"?

 

[RedFan]

No. A guarantee is an assuredness TO receive salvation.

OSAS ~ means ONCE salvation IS received that salvation can not be Lost.

Salvation is a Gift.
Once a person receives the Gift, that Gift can not become removed.

Thanks for this. But it seems to me that a gift can be received, and later cast aside. How do you know that a gift I receive today wont be tossed away by me next year? The fact that I received it this year is an unalterable fact, I agree -- but there is no guarantee that I'll keep it for the rest of my life.

 

[Taken]

Sadly, there are many people who are "religious, but not right with God." Prior to becoming born again I was one of those people. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Agree.

Church congregations are full of people, with individual “reasonings” of “why” they are there...all calling themselves and being called Christians...
From obligated, curious, learning, potential business deals, fashion show, mate searching, gossip exchange, entertainment, festivities, clout, feel good about themselves, food, worshipping, see and be seen,
ETC.

 

[Taken]

Thanks for this. But it seems to me that a gift can be received, and later cast aside. How do you know that a gift I receive today wont be tossed away by me next year? The fact that I received it this year is an unalterable fact, I agree -- but there is no guarantee that I'll keep it for the rest of my life.

Once Saved, you do not do the KEEPING. The Power of God Does the KEEPING.

 

[Taken]

Then you are at the mercy of the translator of your particular version of the NT. Would you rather be told by the translator what Paul meant; or be told what Paul said? Are you willing to allow the translator’s personal choice of words to slant Paul's meaning?

Paul's word σῳζομένοις in 1 Cor. 1:18 and 2 Cor. 2:15 is translated "being saved" by the NIV, ESV, NASB, NET, RSV and NRSV, among others. The KJV renders it as "saved" -- despite σῳζομένοις being a present participle. Which translation is more faithful to the original Greek here? It takes a serious student of Greek grammar to understand whether all of these newer translations are correct -- and a fool to dismiss them all as incorrect without at least considering that grammar.

I suppose you could always pick a translation that comports with your preconceived notions -- but that would be reasoning the matter backwards.

Already revealed I do believe people are in the process of becoming prepared to become saved....as well I do believe physically alive body’s yet spiritual crucified with Christ, ARE Saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Thanks for this. But it seems to me that a gift can be received, and later cast aside. How do you know that a gift I receive today wont be tossed away by me next year? The fact that I received it this year is an unalterable fact, I agree -- but there is no guarantee that I'll keep it for the rest of my life.

Ephesians 1:14 - ..guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. suggests otherwise. Ephesians 4:30 says we are sealed unto/for the day of redemption. The guarantee is only for those who truly believe the gospel. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we read - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. That's the real issue with those who claim to no longer believe.

 

[RedFan]

My problem with this is that Christians can (and do) continue to sin. Are none of those sins able to forfeit a true believer's salvation?

The answer I usually get to this question is that the sinner’s original acceptance of Christ wasn’t really genuine, as demonstrated by his subsequent behavior belying any genuine decision to live a life in imitation of Christ. This kind of “by their fruits ye shall know them” argument is, of course, a slippery slope. Once it is conceded that even the genuinely born-again can lapse into sin, we are stuck with figuring out how much sin is too much (or worse, how to deal with the sinner who will not confess the sin). So I am looking for a better answer.

 

[mailmandan]

My problem with this is that Christians can (and do) continue to sin. Are none of those sins able to forfeit a true believer's salvation?

The answer I usually get to this question is that the sinner’s original acceptance of Christ wasn’t really genuine, as demonstrated by his subsequent behavior belying any genuine decision to live a life in imitation of Christ. This kind of “by their fruits ye shall know them” argument is, of course, a slippery slope. Once it is conceded that even the genuinely born-again can lapse into sin, we are stuck with figuring out how much sin is too much (or worse, how to deal with the sinner who will not confess the sin). So I am looking for a better answer.

Can you find a verse in the Bible that unequivocally says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation?" I can't find that verse. Now there are verses in the Bible that "on the surface" appear to teach the loss of salvation and works-salvationists are very fond of citing such verses, yet after digging deeper into the context, they don't seem to hold water for such an interpretation.

I've noticed that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Nowhere do I see the words UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit, UN-regenerated, UN-born again or lost salvation in the Bible. I do however see that God preserves His saints forever. (Psalm 37:28) In Jude 1 we also see that those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, are preserved in Jesus Christ. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. Hope this helps.

 

[Dropship]

Can we really know if we're OSAS?
Surely only God knows?
Personally I like to think I'm saved but I just don't know.
Even Paul never assumed he was making the grade-
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Cor 4:3)

But as Christians, we've certainly got a much better chance than Jesus-rejecters and atheists, because their chance is absolutely zero..

 

[mailmandan]

Can we really know if we're OSAS?
Surely only God knows?
Personally I like to think I'm saved but I just don't know.
Even Paul never assumed he was making the grade-
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Cor 4:3)

But as Christians, we've certainly got a much better chance than Jesus-rejecters and atheists, because their chance is absolutely zero..

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Dropship]

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ah, but everybody who calls themself a Christian likes to think they "have the Son of God", but that's not necessarily the case..
Jesus said:-"Not all who call me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[mailmandan]

Ah, but everybody who calls themself a Christian likes to think they "have the Son of God", but that's not necessarily the case..
Jesus said:-"Not all who call me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matthew 7:21-23)

True. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Do you claim to be without sin?

Do you claim to be with sin? 1 John 3:8

Christ did not take your sins away? John 1:29

Did you add more sins after believing in Christ? Hebrews 10:26

 

[Michiah-Imla]

33

Christians can (and do) continue to sin.

And woe into them!

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)