1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

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Timtofly

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Meeting the Lamb in the air can only happen once when God says it will happen. It could happen in the next 9 months. And even then, it will happen for those in Christ, the bride of Christ only one time. The rest of the harvest is for guest to the wedding and those who get to live in the 1000 year honeymoon.
 

Giuliano

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Meeting the Lamb in the air can only happen once when God says it will happen. It could happen in the next 9 months. And even then, it will happen for those in Christ, the bride of Christ only one time. The rest of the harvest is for guest to the wedding and those who get to live in the 1000 year honeymoon.
So Paul was lying to the people at Corinth? You think they all died and none was caught up in the air? Those were not comforting words then -- they were false words, meant to mislead them?

You think Jesus was lying when he said John would witness his coming? I don't. John even tells us in Revelation how he heard a trumpet -- and then he was caught up to be in Heaven.
 

Timtofly

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So Paul was lying to the people at Corinth? You think they all died and none was caught up in the air? Those were not comforting words then -- they were false words, meant to mislead them?

You think Jesus was lying when he said John would witness his coming? I don't. John even tells us in Revelation how he heard a trumpet -- and then he was caught up to be in Heaven.
Paul said we, since if you insist in calling Paul a liar, then Paul was not talking to just the Corinthians, but all. No, it was not a lie, it was a prophecy. If I said it was next week, that would be a lie. Paul never set a date, so it has not happened yet, nor was it just for the Corinthians or it would have been wrong of Paul to lie to them.

No, John has not died yet.
 

Giuliano

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Paul said we, since if you insist in calling Paul a liar, then Paul was not talking to just the Corinthians, but all. No, it was not a lie, it was a prophecy. If I said it was next week, that would be a lie. Paul never set a date, so it has not happened yet, nor was it just for the Corinthians or it would have been wrong of Paul to lie to them.

No, John has not died yet.
Paul was writing to the Corinthians -- not to you.
 

Timtofly

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Yes, and the "we" means the people Paul was writing to and Paul himself.
Perhaps you should quote the verse in your argument? The we are those alive in Christ, the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:50
"Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay."
Not to mention this thread topic is about the Thessalonians. All the body of Christ?
 

Giuliano

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Perhaps you should quote the verse in your argument? The we are those alive in Christ, the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:50
"Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay."
Not to mention this thread topic is about the Thessalonians. All the body of Christ?
Odd that you mention flesh and blood not sharing the kingdom, yet you seem to think your physical body is gong to be caught up in the air to be forever with the Lord.

I asked the same question about the passage in Thessalonians. That passage was quoted in the opening post.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


No one seems to connect that passage with what happened to John who heard a sound like a trumpet and who was caught up to Heaven. You prefer to think John's physical body is still alive somewhere.

Then GYSMSY introduced the passage from 1 Corinthians and I asked about it too.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You say they did all sleep. None of them was changed then. And John is still alive somewhere.
 

Timtofly

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Odd that you mention flesh and blood not sharing the kingdom, yet you seem to think your physical body is gong to be caught up in the air to be forever with the Lord.

I asked the same question about the passage in Thessalonians. That passage was quoted in the opening post.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


No one seems to connect that passage with what happened to John who heard a sound like a trumpet and who was caught up to Heaven. You prefer to think John's physical body is still alive somewhere.

Then GYSMSY introduced the passage from 1 Corinthians and I asked about it too.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You say they did all sleep. None of them was changed then. And John is still alive somewhere.
My claim:

1. The body is made of dust, and returns to dust. No dust in heaven. 4 exceptions. Enoch who is also Elijah, Moses, and John the beloved. There is a interesting painting of the 4 Gospel writers, by Jacob Jordaens, called The Four Evangelists, 1625–1630. John is a child. That is really no big deal, and there are thousands of paintings of John. Also there are differing opinions about John's death. But there is controversy about Moses as well. The 4th exception is not named in the Bible.

2. The soul has a shape, a ghost, Jesus was a ghost when talking to Mary.

3. We are separated from the spirit. The white robe is a covering, the spirit is a shape over the body shape. We have two examples of a spirit shape. When Jesus was baptized, it was the shape of a dove. On Pentecost it was a tongue of fire. A flame without a source. So we have a white dove, a white robe, and white? flame of fire. I am not a scientist, but white is the hottest part of a flame, after blue. Is the robe of white, figurative of a white flame? Who knows? Hebrews 12:29. How can the sons of God be burning hot flames of fire, walking around on earth, not burning up everything around them? Well Moses watched a bush burn, yet was not consumed. Can a white light be used as communication? We use red and blue laser light to read data fast. When Moses was on Mt. Sinai, his skin became so bright white, that it glowed, and they had to cover his face. Yes, the same Moses, who is an exception, had skin that became a bright white light while on earth? That is the claim. God had to communicate directly with Moses, and changed him so he could. God talked with Cain, directly as well. God talked directly with Adam, until Adam disobeyed, and then Adam had to leave God's presence. Cain had to leave God's presence also. Somehow he killed Abel.

3. The only way we can be in God's presence, even Heaven, cannot be in flesh, only soul and spirit. The soul and spirit never sleeps, nor dies. It is the flesh, that has to sleep, and that does die. REM, in the deepest body sleep, is also the most active soul activity.

4. Dead bodies are dead, or dust, gone. Perhaps bones still left. Both passages quoted does not say the body is raised, but the body raised is the soul and spirit already in heaven. We shall not all sleep. This means once dead, in Christ, we cannot sleep. Any one whose body is still alive at the rapture will be changed in mid air. The dead in heaven are not changed; the two bodies are not united until the opening of the 5th seal.

Now those dead in sin. The soul is in hell, where is the spirit/demon? God says not to think or become part of the occult world. We do not need to know, nor seek it out. We do have live bodies that are demon possessed. God gives some the ability to cast them out. Normally it happens in places where people do go against God’s Will and practice the occult. It is also programmed into our youth with video games. In the last 50 years, the onslaught of the occult has hit the western thought processes. Eastern religions never really separated the spiritual from the physical. They embrace the spiritual as physical as their daily lifestyle. Religion is itself not much different than the occult. Most people in western thought processes, do not immerse themselves in religion, it is more a hobby, or liturgy, as a slight distraction from a week of work.
 

GISMYS_7

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So Paul was lying to the people at Corinth? You think they all died and none was caught up in the air? Those were not comforting words then -- they were false words, meant to mislead them?

You think Jesus was lying when he said John would witness his coming? I don't. John even tells us in Revelation how he heard a trumpet -- and then he was caught up to be in Heaven.
My claim:

1. The body is made of dust, and returns to dust. No dust in heaven. 4 exceptions. Enoch who is also Elijah, Moses, and John the beloved. There is a interesting painting of the 4 Gospel writers, by Jacob Jordaens, called The Four Evangelists, 1625–1630. John is a child. That is really no big deal, and there are thousands of paintings of John. Also there are differing opinions about John's death. But there is controversy about Moses as well. The 4th exception is not named in the Bible.

2. The soul has a shape, a ghost, Jesus was a ghost when talking to Mary.

3. We are separated from the spirit. The white robe is a covering, the spirit is a shape over the body shape. We have two examples of a spirit shape. When Jesus was baptized, it was the shape of a dove. On Pentecost it was a tongue of fire. A flame without a source. So we have a white dove, a white robe, and white? flame of fire. I am not a scientist, but white is the hottest part of a flame, after blue. Is the robe of white, figurative of a white flame? Who knows? Hebrews 12:29. How can the sons of God be burning hot flames of fire, walking around on earth, not burning up everything around them? Well Moses watched a bush burn, yet was not consumed. Can a white light be used as communication? We use red and blue laser light to read data fast. When Moses was on Mt. Sinai, his skin became so bright white, that it glowed, and they had to cover his face. Yes, the same Moses, who is an exception, had skin that became a bright white light while on earth? That is the claim. God had to communicate directly with Moses, and changed him so he could. God talked with Cain, directly as well. God talked directly with Adam, until Adam disobeyed, and then Adam had to leave God's presence. Cain had to leave God's presence also. Somehow he killed Abel.

3. The only way we can be in God's presence, even Heaven, cannot be in flesh, only soul and spirit. The soul and spirit never sleeps, nor dies. It is the flesh, that has to sleep, and that does die. REM, in the deepest body sleep, is also the most active soul activity.

4. Dead bodies are dead, or dust, gone. Perhaps bones still left. Both passages quoted does not say the body is raised, but the body raised is the soul and spirit already in heaven. We shall not all sleep. This means once dead, in Christ, we cannot sleep. Any one whose body is still alive at the rapture will be changed in mid air. The dead in heaven are not changed; the two bodies are not united until the opening of the 5th seal.

Now those dead in sin. The soul is in hell, where is the spirit/demon? God says not to think or become part of the occult world. We do not need to know, nor seek it out. We do have live bodies that are demon possessed. God gives some the ability to cast them out. Normally it happens in places where people do go against God’s Will and practice the occult. It is also programmed into our youth with video games. In the last 50 years, the onslaught of the occult has hit the western thought processes. Eastern religions never really separated the spiritual from the physical. They embrace the spiritual as physical as their daily lifestyle. Religion is itself not much different than the occult. Most people in western thought processes, do not immerse themselves in religion, it is more a hobby, or liturgy, as a slight distraction from a week of work.
My claim:

We believers will have a new imortal body in heaven a body like the risen Jesus a real physical body but not of flesh but we can still eat and drink and be touched by others as Jesus said to Thomas "feel the nail holes.

1. The body is made of dust, and returns to dust. No dust in heaven. 4 exceptions. Enoch who is also Elijah, Moses, and John the beloved. There is a interesting painting of the 4 Gospel writers, by Jacob Jordaens, called The Four Evangelists, 1625–1630. John is a child. That is really no big deal, and there are thousands of paintings of John. Also there are differing opinions about John's death. But there is controversy about Moses as well. The 4th exception is not named in the Bible.

2. The soul has a shape, a ghost, Jesus was a ghost when talking to Mary.

3. We are separated from the spirit. The white robe is a covering, the spirit is a shape over the body shape. We have two examples of a spirit shape. When Jesus was baptized, it was the shape of a dove. On Pentecost it was a tongue of fire. A flame without a source. So we have a white dove, a white robe, and white? flame of fire. I am not a scientist, but white is the hottest part of a flame, after blue. Is the robe of white, figurative of a white flame? Who knows? Hebrews 12:29. How can the sons of God be burning hot flames of fire, walking around on earth, not burning up everything around them? Well Moses watched a bush burn, yet was not consumed. Can a white light be used as communication? We use red and blue laser light to read data fast. When Moses was on Mt. Sinai, his skin became so bright white, that it glowed, and they had to cover his face. Yes, the same Moses, who is an exception, had skin that became a bright white light while on earth? That is the claim. God had to communicate directly with Moses, and changed him so he could. God talked with Cain, directly as well. God talked directly with Adam, until Adam disobeyed, and then Adam had to leave God's presence. Cain had to leave God's presence also. Somehow he killed Abel.

3. The only way we can be in God's presence, even Heaven, cannot be in flesh, only soul and spirit. The soul and spirit never sleeps, nor dies. It is the flesh, that has to sleep, and that does die. REM, in the deepest body sleep, is also the most active soul activity.

4. Dead bodies are dead, or dust, gone. Perhaps bones still left. Both passages quoted does not say the body is raised, but the body raised is the soul and spirit already in heaven. We shall not all sleep. This means once dead, in Christ, we cannot sleep. Any one whose body is still alive at the rapture will be changed in mid air. The dead in heaven are not changed; the two bodies are not united until the opening of the 5th seal.

Now those dead in sin. The soul is in hell, where is the spirit/demon? God says not to think or become part of the occult world. We do not need to know, nor seek it out. We do have live bodies that are demon possessed. God gives some the ability to cast them out. Normally it happens in places where people do go against God’s Will and practice the occult. It is also programmed into our youth with video games. In the last 50 years, the onslaught of the occult has hit the western thought processes. Eastern religions never really separated the spiritual from the physical. They embrace the spiritual as physical as their daily lifestyle. Religion is itself not much different than the occult. Most people in western thought processes, do not immerse themselves in religion, it is more a hobby, or liturgy, as a slight distraction from a week of work.
 

Giuliano

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My claim:

1. The body is made of dust, and returns to dust. No dust in heaven. 4 exceptions. Enoch who is also Elijah, Moses, and John the beloved. There is a interesting painting of the 4 Gospel writers, by Jacob Jordaens, called The Four Evangelists, 1625–1630. John is a child. That is really no big deal, and there are thousands of paintings of John. Also there are differing opinions about John's death. But there is controversy about Moses as well. The 4th exception is not named in the Bible.

2. The soul has a shape, a ghost, Jesus was a ghost when talking to Mary.

3. We are separated from the spirit. The white robe is a covering, the spirit is a shape over the body shape. We have two examples of a spirit shape. When Jesus was baptized, it was the shape of a dove. On Pentecost it was a tongue of fire. A flame without a source. So we have a white dove, a white robe, and white? flame of fire. I am not a scientist, but white is the hottest part of a flame, after blue. Is the robe of white, figurative of a white flame? Who knows? Hebrews 12:29. How can the sons of God be burning hot flames of fire, walking around on earth, not burning up everything around them? Well Moses watched a bush burn, yet was not consumed. Can a white light be used as communication? We use red and blue laser light to read data fast. When Moses was on Mt. Sinai, his skin became so bright white, that it glowed, and they had to cover his face. Yes, the same Moses, who is an exception, had skin that became a bright white light while on earth? That is the claim. God had to communicate directly with Moses, and changed him so he could. God talked with Cain, directly as well. God talked directly with Adam, until Adam disobeyed, and then Adam had to leave God's presence. Cain had to leave God's presence also. Somehow he killed Abel.

3. The only way we can be in God's presence, even Heaven, cannot be in flesh, only soul and spirit. The soul and spirit never sleeps, nor dies. It is the flesh, that has to sleep, and that does die. REM, in the deepest body sleep, is also the most active soul activity.

4. Dead bodies are dead, or dust, gone. Perhaps bones still left. Both passages quoted does not say the body is raised, but the body raised is the soul and spirit already in heaven. We shall not all sleep. This means once dead, in Christ, we cannot sleep. Any one whose body is still alive at the rapture will be changed in mid air. The dead in heaven are not changed; the two bodies are not united until the opening of the 5th seal.

Now those dead in sin. The soul is in hell, where is the spirit/demon? God says not to think or become part of the occult world. We do not need to know, nor seek it out. We do have live bodies that are demon possessed. God gives some the ability to cast them out. Normally it happens in places where people do go against God’s Will and practice the occult. It is also programmed into our youth with video games. In the last 50 years, the onslaught of the occult has hit the western thought processes. Eastern religions never really separated the spiritual from the physical. They embrace the spiritual as physical as their daily lifestyle. Religion is itself not much different than the occult. Most people in western thought processes, do not immerse themselves in religion, it is more a hobby, or liturgy, as a slight distraction from a week of work.
You did not answer my questions.
 

Timtofly

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You did not answer my questions.
I attempted to answer all I could find.

Your question once was about it not happening after Paul wrote the Corinthians. I answered that it could only happen one time, and it has not happened yet. My post #89 was not an answer. I was trying to clarify what you thought I was posting. Change cannot happen more than once. The soul and spirit are still separated. No one in Christ is sleeping. No one in hell is sleeping either. Will they ever be re-united with their spirit? I do not know. Can their soul or spirit be killed? I do not know. I doubt it.

The part about we "not having a soul", but we are the soul, is the same as we cannot die, just our spirit and body can die. That is not death, but separation. The body is just dust. It remains dust. Dust is not dead, it is nothing. It is something, dust. The spirit is a body shape that covers the soul/ghost shape. The soul/ghost has shape, but no substance. What substance happens when the soul and spirit combine? No one knows, it has not happened yet. Are the 4 beings, the 4 exceptions, examples? Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount of transfiguration. John does not mention the account. The other 3 says John was there. The closest verse in John is this: John 1:12-14

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Verse 13 says the sons of God were not flesh and blood, nor of biological will. Now God says dust was used, but the image was changed from dust to something perfect. God, at the fall and the punishment changed perfect flesh, into corruption in both Adam and Eve. Seems like biological evolution was that corruption. Birth changed and flesh changed. That is why Paul states, "this corruption changes to incorruption." He then could say, "mortality is now wrapped in immortality." Sons of God now have the perfect image, physical body, as originally created. Not from dust, but from God directly the next time around. Did John have that body even during the ministry of Jesus, so he could declare by experience? We are not directly told, but it is hinted at. Why would a painter in the mid 1600's still think John was a child, while those other gospel writers aged?