23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

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Truth7t7

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Grammar identifies "He" as Messiah the Prince.

Is grammar false?
I Strongly Disagree

The future bad guy is the "He", Jesus doesn't make abomination and desolation as you claim, it's that simple, horse is dead

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And
he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
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covenantee

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I Strongly Disagree

The future bad guy is the "He", Jesus doesn't make abomination and desolation as you claim, it's that simple, horse is dead

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And
he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You strongly disagree with grammar?
 
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WPM

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I'm not arguing the Day of the Lord coming the prophets of Old foretell are not the last day when Christ returns in fiery judgment. What I'm arguing is that the coming day of the Lord, the promised Messiah, the prophets of Old foretell is not one day, but an age/era/time that began when the promised Messiah came to earth a man. There is no question the day of the Lord the apostles foretell shall come is ALWAYS the return of Christ in fiery judgment. That is still the day/age/era of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come, but is the last day of this Messianic age of grace that will end when the seventh angel begins to sound and time shall be no more.

The prophets of Old have much to tell us of what shall come to pass in "that day". That is the Messianic Gospel age/era/time/day when God shall save them as the flock of His people.

Zechariah 9:16 (KJV) And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Zechariah 9:16 (YLT) And saved them hath Jehovah their God In that day, as a flock of His people, For stones of a crown are displaying themselves over His ground.

Zechariah 2:10-11 (KJV) Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Your last sentence quoted below sums up fairly well (particularly that highlighted) how I have come to understand the day of the Lord coming, prophesied of Old, began to be fulfilled when the promised Messiah came to earth a man, and that day/age/time/era will be finished when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete and the seventh angel sounds.

"It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent."

I agree. I would argue Zech 14:1 is not to be a reference to the DOTL, but a day coming unto the Lord. I would relate "the last days" predicted by the OT prophets to refer to the intra-Advent period with "the last day" describing Jesus return.
 
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WPM

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I Strongly Disagree

The future bad guy is the "He", Jesus doesn't make abomination and desolation as you claim, it's that simple, horse is dead

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And
he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who cares whether you "strongly disagree"? What does that matter?
 
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Truth7t7

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I agree. I would argue Zech 14:1 is not to be a reference to the DOTL, but a day coming unto the Lord. I would relate "the last days" predicted by the OT prophets to refer to the intra-Advent period with "the last day" describing Jesus return.
(The Day Of The Lord)

(Same Future Event Below)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV
1 Behold,
the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
 

WPM

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(The Day Of The Lord)

(Same Future Event Below)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV
1 Behold,
the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Read above and see what the original says, if that even matters to you.
 

Truth7t7

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Read above and see what the original says, if that even matters to you.
Read the qualifications of those that translated the words in the KJV (The Day Of The Lord) in Zechariah 14:1, modern scholarship doesn't hold a candle to the devout Christian men with unbelievable qualifications

1611 King James Translators

INTRODUCTION​

At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.
All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.
One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.
Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.
They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:
The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)
For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.
Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.
 

rwb

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I Strongly Disagree, (The Day Of The Lord) is (The Last Day) that will see the Lord's second coming in fire and final judgement

Your claim it started at the first advent and last 2,000 years to the second coming is "Laughable", the horse is dead, it's all yours

Jesus Is The Lord

7t7 you are too consumed by hatred that has so closed your heart to hearing truth that which is really laughable is that you call yourself Truth7t7.
 
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WPM

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Read the qualifications of those that translated the words in the KJV (The Day Of The Lord) in Zechariah 14:1, modern scholarship doesn't hold a candle to the devout Christian men with unbelievable qualifications

1611 King James Translators

INTRODUCTION​

At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.
All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.
One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.
Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.
They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:

For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.
Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.

What has this to do with what i wrote? As usual you fail to rebut anything i presented. This is your pattern. This is exactly what the Scoffieldietes do when their beliefs are exposed..
 
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Truth7t7

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7t7 you are too consumed by hatred
Your claim is "False"

Correction: Your in denial of presented biblical truth, in your private interpretation to support a false doctrine, that's not found in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Truth7t7

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What has this to do with what i wrote? As usual you fail to rebut anything i presented. This is your pattern. This is exactly what the Scoffieldietes do when their beliefs are exposed..
You tried to re-translate the King James Bible in Zechariah 14:1, stating this was done wrong?

I gave you detailed information on the qualifications of the KJV translators, the very individuals that translated Zechariah 14:1

Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?
 

WPM

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You tried to re-translate the King James Bible in Zechariah 14:1, stating this was done wrong?

I gave you detailed information on the qualifications of the KJV translators, the very individuals that translated Zechariah 14:1

Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?

If you would do your own research, you might be more informed and more objective. I use the KJV, but it is not perfect. There are many examples where things could be worded better. You need to start thinking for yourself instead of simply rabbiting what you have been taught.
 
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rwb

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You tried to re-translate the King James Bible in Zechariah 14:1, stating this was done wrong?

I gave you detailed information on the qualifications of the KJV translators, the very individuals that translated Zechariah 14:1

Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?

That's silly! He did not try to re-translate. He proved that no two translations are of the original authors from holy men of old who were moved by the Holy Spirit. Anyone arguing for perfection of any translation is arguing for human perfection. As much as I love and mostly use the KJV of Scripture, I realize the authors of this translation, as well as all translations are human, therefore prone to error and bias.
 
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Truth7t7

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If you would do your own research, you might be more informed and more objective. I use the KJV, but it is not perfect. There are many examples where things could be worded better. You need to start thinking for yourself instead of simply rabbiting what you have been taught.
The KJV translators did a professional job in translation, you'll have to build another strawman to support your false doctrine and claims

WPM Quote Post #1143 Below

I agree. I would argue Zech 14:1 is not to be a reference to the DOTL
, but a day coming unto the Lord. I would relate "the last days" predicted by the OT prophets to refer to the intra-Advent period with "the last day" describing Jesus return.
 

rwb

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The KJV translators did a professional job in translation, you'll have to build another strawman to support your false doctrine and claims

WPM Quote Post #1143 Below

I agree. I would argue Zech 14:1 is not to be a reference to the DOTL
, but a day coming unto the Lord. I would relate "the last days" predicted by the OT prophets to refer to the intra-Advent period with "the last day" describing Jesus return.

Again, it is foolish to argue for human perfection for any translation! Foolish because you're actually arguing for human perfection!
 
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Truth7t7

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If you would do your own research, you might be more informed and more objective. I use the KJV, but it is not perfect. There are many examples where things could be worded better. You need to start thinking for yourself instead of simply rabbiting what you have been taught.
Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?
 

Truth7t7

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Again, it is foolish to argue for human perfection for any translation! Foolish because you're actually arguing for human perfection!
Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?

1611 King James Translators

INTRODUCTION​

At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.
All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.
One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.
Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.
They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:
The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010
For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.
Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.
 

rwb

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Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?

Are you arguing that only those holding a Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek have the ability to understand how to interpret Scripture? If that's what you mean, where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?
 
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rwb

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Where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?

1611 King James Translators

INTRODUCTION​

At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.
All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.
One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.
Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.
They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:

For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.
Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.

I have no problem saying I have not a Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek. I also well know that I am given to understand Scripture through the power of the Holy Spirit in me, and He is far better than having a higher education. That does not mean that I do not heed the wisdom from those of faith who do have understanding of Hebrew/Greek, and far more education than myself. We just need to be very careful that we don't begin to think any human has achieved perfect understanding of the Word of God, or that the only translation that is without error or bias is the one we use.
 

Truth7t7

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Are you arguing that only those holding a Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek have the ability to understand how to interpret Scripture? If that's what you mean, where did you get your Ph.D. in Hebrew/Greek?
You mean to correct a translation regarding Zechariah 14:1KJV, this being the subject of question, Big Smiles!

Divert, Distract, Deny

To claim (The Day Of The Lord) started at the 1st advent and continues to the second coming 2,000 years and waiting is a big man made "Fairy Tale" found no place in scripture, pre-millennialist have more credibility

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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