25 reasons why you should abandon Premillennialism

[WPM]

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premillennialist that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or “Revelation 20 says.” This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise “what saith the Scripture.” The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys no other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premillennialism is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support all their main tenets. This is demonstrated by the fact, there is not one single second coming passage in the Bible that teaches 1000 years (or any significant period of time) follows this great glorious event where sin and death continue. Amils have a problem with, and are opposed to, this loose form of hermeneutics and questionable mode of exegesis.

(2) Premillennialism hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Disprove the chronology between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Premillennialism falls apart.

(3) The detail Premillennialism attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premillennialism assigns to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

• Premillennialists have Jesus located on earth during their millennial kingdom. The only problem is: there is nowhere in Revelation 20 that teaches that. Premillennialists foist that upon the sacred text. For years, it has been the Premillennialism mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
• Millions of humans in mortal bodies suddenly become sinless when they enter a future millennial earth. Sinners also miraculously become sinless outside of salvation. Premillennialists allege that Christ is reigning in perfect righteousness without any form of resistance or rebellion. There is wholesale submission to His authority. All mankind experiences perfect peace. But all this changes in an instance when Satan pops his head up after 1000 years. Billions of wicked mortals as “the sand of the sea” who formerly swore allegiance to Christ and brought faithful religious worship to Him now turn their back on Him and become satanists. These must be the greatest company of hard- necked religious phonies ever to live. Of course, neither Revelation 20 nor anywhere else in Scripture teaches such an age.
• Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the coming of Christ and the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” (that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night) “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is therefore no more salvation after that.
• They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching. Multiple New Testament Scripture forbids such an absurdity. The book of Hebrews is very clear on this. Amils get what Jesus meant when He said "it is finished" on the cross. They believe that Jesus is the final sacrifice for sin.
• Premillennialists promote the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing. The whole New Testament narrative shows that racial favoritism has been brought to an end since the introduction of the new covenant.
• They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
• They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premillennialist millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together, is quickly broken as the slaughter trucks roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting helpless animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the trucks speed off, the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem, they pointlessly slit the throats of innocent lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.
• Premillennialists teach that there are mortal saints that surrender their lives to Christ during a future millennium, but these same brethren refuse to address the elephant in the room: if the earth does indeed flee away after Satan's little season, as Revelation 20 states, then there must be (of necessity) another rapture and glorification in order to rescue God's mortal people from the destruction of this current earth at the end. When you suggest this, Premillennialists get very uncomfortable. What is more, where do all the glorified saints go when the millennial earth eventually passes away as the text teaches? This is what error produces! It doesn't add up.

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32, Proverbs 30:5-6, Isaiah 8:20, Galatians 1:9 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

 

[WPM]

(7) Premillennialists ignore the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain their teaching. That is because the tenses expose Premil. For example, Scripture shows that Jesus is reigning now over creation, His people and all His enemies. It is shown to be in the present ongoing tense. Most Premillennialists reject this as it messes with their belief-system. However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: “he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

Ephesians 1:20-22 tells us that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”

Hebrews 2:7-8 says, “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ‘Thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet. For in that ‘he put all in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible shows God’s people reigning now. Ephesians 2:5: “Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ (aorist active indicative) with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).”

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

Revelation 20:4-5 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

A final matter may prove our point, John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.” Our part in the first resurrection, shown throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5).

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present tense, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.” Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.” Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

(8) Premillennialism gives lip service to credible and consistent hermeneutics, yet, when you engage with them and show them the many inconsistencies in their position, they quickly and conveniently dismiss it. Premillennialists are so adamant in us interpreting “a thousand years” as a literal wooden 1000 years, after all it mentions years, yet when you ask them ‘how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?’ they suddenly see the figurative intent.

It doesn't add up or make sense. Premils make it up as they go. It is like the mark of the beast, they are so insistent on it being hyper-literal yet when it comes to the mark of God, which is mentioned more times in Revelation, they suddenly and effortlessly apply a spiritual meaning to that. This is double-standards. But that is Premillennialism. Look at the climactic detail of 2 Peter 3 or Revelation 19. They localize the destruction of the current heavens, earth (and the works therein), and the elements in 2 Peter 3, even though a plain reading of the text shows it is comprehensive conflagration. The same with Revelation 19. The destruction of "all flesh" is explained away to allow the populating of a supposed future millennial earth with countless mortal sinners. Literal rules of interpretation are thrown out the window here in order to facilitate Premillennialism.

(9) Premillennialism lacks corroboration for all its fundamental beliefs on Revelation 20. Whether you look at the binding of Satan, the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming, the restoration of animal sacrifices in an alleged future millennium, a thousand years of peace, perfection and prosperity, two different judgment days, two different resurrection days, the rebellion of the wicked at the end of the millennium, these enjoy no other support in Scripture. I struggle with this, because the only way to authenticate and understand any doctrine is interpret it with other Scripture.

Premillennialists somehow extrapolates two distinct physical future resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+ out of Rev 20. Where in Scripture does it even mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end? Nowhere! What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+? Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end? What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them? There is no other Scripture that teaches this doctrine. Premillennialists force that upon the sacred text.

They have absolutely nothing to reinforce their core beliefs. They interpret their opinion of Revelation 20 by their opinion of Revelation 20. This is ridiculous! This is one of many reasons why this non-corroborative doctrine should be rejected.

(10) Premillennialism invent an unscriptural three-age theological framework in order to justify their flawed belief system. This consists of “this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come.” The only problem is: this paradigm enjoys no scriptural support. Repeated Scripture, including the teaching of Christ, only recognizes two overriding ages – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” These terminologies are crucial when trying to understanding biblical eschatology. The dividing point between these two ages is continually shown in the sacred text to be the glorious final future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is described as “this age” is current, corrupt and temporal and “the age to come” is impending, perfect and eternal. This age is depicted as an “evil age” that is blighted with sin, sinners, death, decay and Satan. The age to come is depicted as a “righteous” age that is marked by perfection, eternal rest, total bliss, a renewed creation, a glorified existence and the restoration of all things. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there is no intervening time-period or temporal age in between “this age” and “the age to come.”

(11) Christ (who was "the truth"), Paul the Apostle (that Hebrew of the Hebrews) or none of the other NT writer taught a supposed future 1,000-year temporal visible earthly kingdom after the second coming and before the new heaven and the new earth. Their whole teaching depicted a current spiritual invisible heavenly eternal kingdom that was entered by faith. The final perfect visible manifestation of the kingdom is shown repeatedly in the NT to arrive when Jesus comes and destroys all enemies and banishes all imperfection forever. Premillennialism mistakenly advocates another additional imperfect kingdom age, which is in fact a rerun of our current day, to support their faulty theology.

 

[WPM]

(12) Because these thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture, apart from the highly symbolic Revelation 20, Premil is forced to insert a thousand years in text after text where it doesn't exist, belong or fit. That is not right, and is called adding unto Scripture. Objective Bible students should struggle with building their whole end-time eschatology on the 3rd last chapter of the Bible, in a highly symbolic setting, especially when we are supposedly talking about the 2nd greatest age ever. The scriptural silence elsewhere is damning for the doctrine!

Premil must force a future thousand years into multiple passages throughout the OT and the NT where it does not belong or fit. That is not right, and is called adding unto Scripture.

(13) The future earth that Amillennialists and Premillennialists expect after Jesus comes could not be more diverse. Amillennialists believe the coming of the Lord will usher in the eternal state and witness the full manifestation of the glorified kingdom on a renewed earth (some Amils believe there will be a brand-new earth) in all its eternal perfection. This earth will be restored to its pristine condition – being eternally freed from all the bondage of corruption. Every enemy of God’s perfect righteous order will be finally eliminated with the fiery regeneration of this earth and the final and complete destruction of the wicked at His appearing.

Premillennialists disagree. They expect an age to come that is blighted with all the awful fruit of the Fall that this age suffers from. They believe the bondage of corruption continues on the future Premillennialism earth. There will be sin and sinners, disease and decay, crying and dying, mortals and mortality, war and terror, Satan and his minions continuing on the earth after the second coming. What is more, it regressively degenerates into turmoil, tears and tragedy. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase. In fact, the unregenerate overrun their age as the sand of the sea.

(14) Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

(15) Another major error that Premil makes is that it constantly presents the Old Testament as if the new covenant has never arrived. It is as if Jesus Christ has not come and fulfilled the old imperfect typical arrangement and introduced the new perfect eternal arrangement. It is as if the Old Testament promises have not been interpreted by the New Testament writers. What Premils insist is literal, physical, visible and earthly, the New Testament writers interpret as figurative, spiritual, invisible and heavenly. What Premils locate in their supposed future millennium, the New Testament writers locate in our current intra-Advent period.

(16) The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialists. They wrongly and strongly promote the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in their future millennial temple (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They also advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

This is despite the fact that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, and can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest instruction or allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. This will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premil invention! Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It teaches: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

(17) Because Premil lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

Premil duplicates everything. They are seeing double. They have two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections." They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming). What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?

(18) Premillennialists cannot even agree on the timing of the arrival of the new heavens and the new earth. They are split on whether Revelation 21 comes chronologically after Revelation 20 and therefore after the millennium kingdom and Satan’s little season in time or whether it is synonymous to that much-debated chapter and that the new heavens and new earth appears at the start of the millennium. This exposes another major weakness in the Premillennial camp: if they cannot even agree on something so simple and elementary as this in their main proof text, how can we trust their chronological approach to Revelation 19 and Revelation 20?

(19) Premil invents a 3rd group of humans that Scripture knows nothing of, that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed. It is these mortals, they argue, who populate their alleged future millennial earth. The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous, those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).

(20) Premil has an unhealthy obsessive focus on natural Israel, wrongly believing her to be God’s chosen people today under the new covenant. As a result, they have a mistaken fixation with natural Jerusalem in the Middle East, as if it is the epicenter of God’s workings with mankind on this earth and the place of His unconditional favor. This is wrong! They ignore much Scripture that shows that the fig tree has been cut down, the kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. Ancient Jerusalem and the temple therein were merely Old Testament imperfect shadows of the heavenly reality that was revealed at the first advent. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we have become one with spiritual believing Israel in the OT. It makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one new man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time!

(21) General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the quick (or living) and the dead,” “every man,” “every eye,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men everywhere,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race (or the full amount of all the wicked) are redefined and explained away to let Premil fit. If one was to take a precise straightforward interpretation of these phrases, one could only come to conclusion that there are no exclusions here. This shows that the Premil boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

 

[WPM]

(22) Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

In this doctrine: Premillennialists deny that Jesus is the first resurrection rather applying that to the believer’s resurrection in the future when Jesus comes again. That is nonsensical. The word first is therefore negated to suit bias teaching. Also, Scripture shows that the first earth with all its corruption is removed at the second coming. Premillennialists are forced to move that to after their supposed future millennium because it contradicts their theology.

Also, in Premillennialism theology, the last days (plural) are not the last days. There are other days that follow the last days. The last day (singular) is not the last day. There are other days that follow the last day. The last enemy is not the last enemy. There are more enemies that follow the last enemy. The last trumpet is not the last trumpet. There are other trumpets that follow the last trumpet.

Plain simple words that are easily understood by all objective onlookers are stripped of their actual straightforward meaning in order to fit the Premillennialism paradigm.

(23) Premil does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

(24) Premillennialists are quick to rubbish the Amillennialism interpretation of Revelation 20 that the lifting of the deception over the nations relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles in this current age. Yet, they are happy to promote the idea of billions of ungodly religious phonies, who have abode in the presence of the glorified Christ and the glorified saints, and have showed themselves to be the most deluded religious actors in history, stubbornly and relentlessly feigning allegiance to Christ throughout the Premillennialist future millennium, arguing that they will not sin or die for 1000 years, and yet at the first sight of their master Satan rise up in rebellion against Jesus and the Church? This they say will happen on a global scale. They then want to convince us that none of these billions are deceived! This is totally ridiculous! This is deception on a scale never seen before in history! It is unprecedented! Premillennialists support this circus and yet cannot seem to see the major contradiction in their own portrayal.

(25) Premillennialists have no answer to the climactic detail of “the day of the Lord” passages like 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3 in Scripture. To allow their beliefs, they normally reject the idea that “the day of the Lord” is a single day in time, and argue it is a literal 1000 years+ day. They do this with several climactic passages. The first problem is: Scripture does not teach that. The second problem is: they fail to see that any “day” in Scripture, regardless of how long it is, is always characterized (for its duration) by the actual detail (or description) attributed to it. In this case, their supposed future millennium is a day of ongoing destruction and desolation. What they also miss is that the day of the Lord “arrives as a thief in the night” (2 Peter 3:10) and brings "sudden destruction" from His appearance (1 Thessalonians 5:3), whereupon, the wicked "shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:3). This exposes their unobjective approach to the sacred text.

 

[Truth7t7]

(13) The future earth that Amillennialists and Premillennialists expect after Jesus comes could not be more diverse. Amillennialists believe the coming of the Lord will usher in the eternal state and witness the full manifestation of the glorified kingdom on a renewed earth in all its eternal perfection. This earth will be restored to its pristine condition – being eternally freed from all the bondage of corruption. Every enemy of God’s perfect righteous order will be finally eliminated with the fiery regeneration of this earth and the final and complete destruction of the wicked at His appearing.

Your claim of (Renewed/Restored/Regeneration) is "False"

This earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire down to its very elements, it will be a completely "New Creation" as God's word clearly teaches below

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

(I Create) not (I Renew/Regenerate)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

 

[Marty fox]

I have updated this list today. I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys no other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support all their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and are opposed to, this loose form of hermeneutics and questionable mode of exegesis.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Disprove the chronology between Revelation 19 that and Revelation 20 and Premil falls apart.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

• For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
• Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.
• They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching. Multiple New Testament Scripture forbids such an absurdity. The book of Hebrews is very clear on this. Amils get what Jesus meant when He said "it is finished" on the cross. They believe that Jesus is the final sacrifice for sin.
• Premillennialists promote the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing. The whole New Testament narrative shows that raicial favoritism has been brought to an end since the introduction of the new covenant.
• They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
• They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together is quickly broken as the slaughter trucks roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the trucks speed off the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem, they pointlessly slit the throats of the lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.
• Premillennialists teach that there are mortal saints that surrender their lives to Christ during a future millennium, but get extremely sheepish in acknowledging, if the earth does indeed flee away after Satan's little season as Revelation 20 states, then there must be (of necessity) another rapture and glorification in order to rescue them from the regeneration or replacement of this current earth. This is what error produces!

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

Yes amen

 

[WPM]

Your claim of (Renewed/Restored/Regeneration) is "False"

This earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire down to its very elements, it will be a completely "New Creation" as God's word clearly teaches below

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

(I Create) not (I Renew/Regenerate)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

I have no major issue with your argument. This is an in-house difference of perspective. I am sure we agree on most of the essentials re the coming arrangement. So, our disagreement is probably minor in the grand scheme of things.

The Bible does indeed tell us: God makes “all things new.” Please note: it does not say He makes ‘all new things’. To create a new arrangement does not require the complete destruction/replacement of what we now have. It requires the creation of a new perfect glorified environment that is purged of all the bondage of corruption (the result of the Fall). So, this does not negate the renewal/regeneration of this current decaying earth.

This is pictured in God's redemptive work with us. 2 Corinthians 5:17 confirms: “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

No one would argue this means that we are not the same entity after salvation. We are! But we are simply new spiritual creatures. We are a new person. We think different. We function different. We feel different.

Please notice: Scripture uses the same terms "new" and "passed away," talking about the condition of regenerated believers after salvation as John does in Revelation 21 describing the new earth.

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but I believe it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all corruption. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed / regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.”

There is no reason to imagine that Job was thinking about any other earth. There is no other earth than this present one that he would have been familiar with.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

It wouldn't be much of an inheritance if the meek had no earth to inherit. What is more, God keeps His Word. He does not break His promise. The reason this will be fulfilled is because the world last forever, albeit in a perfected condition.

It does not make sense to teach that this earth will be completely annihilated and replaced by an entirely separate new earth. That would contradict multiple Scriptures which indicate that the earth will last forever.

Another strong reason to believe that this current earth will be regenerated is the fact that different Old Testament Scriptures tell us that this earth will last forever. These passages would suggest the continuation of this earth in some form.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, “the earth abideth forever.”

Psalm 78:69 says, “the earth which he hath established forever.”

Psalm 93:1b says, “The world also is established, that it cannot be moved.”

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.”

This literally means “So that it will not totter forever and ever." The word totter means, to refrain from moving out of place.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have no major issue with your argument. This is an in-house difference of perspective. I am sure we agree on most of the essentials re the coming arrangement. So, our disagreement is probably minor in the grand scheme of things.

The Bible does indeed tell us: God makes “all things new.” Please note: it does not say He makes ‘all new things’. To create a new arrangement does not require the complete destruction/replacement of what we now have. It requires the creation of a new perfect glorified environment that is purged of all the bondage of corruption (the result of the Fall). So, this does not negate the renewal/regeneration of this current decaying earth.

This is pictured in God's redemptive work with us. 2 Corinthians 5:17 confirms: “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

No one would argue this means that we are not the same entity after salvation. We are! But we are simply new spiritual creatures. We are a new person. We think different. We function different. We feel different.

Please notice: Scripture uses the same terms "new" and "passed away," talking about the condition of regenerated believers after salvation as John does in Revelation 21 describing the new earth.

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but I believe it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all corruption. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed / regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.”

There is no reason to imagine that Job was thinking about any other earth. There is no other earth than this present one that he would have been familiar with.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

It wouldn't be much of an inheritance if the meek had no earth to inherit. What is more, God keeps His Word. He does not break His promise. The reason this will be fulfilled is because the world last forever, albeit in a perfected condition.

It does not make sense to teach that this earth will be completely annihilated and replaced by an entirely separate new earth. That would contradict multiple Scriptures which indicate that the earth will last forever.

Another strong reason to believe that this current earth will be regenerated is the fact that different Old Testament Scriptures tell us that this earth will last forever. These passages would suggest the continuation of this earth in some form.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, “the earth abideth forever.”

Psalm 78:69 says, “the earth which he hath established forever.”

Psalm 93:1b says, “The world also is established, that it cannot be moved.”

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.”

This literally means “So that it will not totter forever and ever." The word totter means, to refrain from moving out of place.

Yes we do agree on much but not all WPM

The scripture below and Strongs definition of the Hebrew word (Bara) silences your claims of this present earth abiding forever, 2 Peter 3:10-13 adds to this fact, it will be "dissolved" to its very "elements"

You quote scripture stating the earth abideth forever? It will abide forever, in a New "Earth" its not Mars, Venus, or Pluto but "Earth"

I have presented God's words concerning this truth, Kim Riddlebarger and reformed theology that you follow are in "Error"

(I Create) not (Renewed/Restored/Regeneration)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

 

[Truth7t7]

(22) Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

In this doctrine: Premillennialists deny that Jesus is the first resurrection rather applying that to the believer’s resurrection in the future when Jesus comes again. That is nonsensical. The word first is therefore negated to suit bias teaching. Also, Scripture shows that the first earth with all its corruption is removed at the second coming. Premillennialists are forced to move that to after their supposed future millennium because it contradicts their theology.

Also, in Premillennialism theology, the last days (plural) are not the last days. There are other days that follow the last days. The last day (singular) is not the last day. There are other days that follow the last day. The last enemy is not the last enemy. There are more enemies that follow the last enemy. The last trumpet is not the last trumpet. There are other trumpets that follow the last trumpet.

(23) Premil does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

(24) Premillennialists are quick to rubbish the Amillennialism interpretation of Revelation 20 that the lifting of the deception over the nations relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles in this current age. Yet, they are happy to promote the idea of billions of ungodly religious phonies, who have abode in the presence of the glorified Christ and the glorified saints, and have showed themselves to be the most deluded religious actors in history, stubbornly and relentlessly feigning allegiance to Christ throughout the Premillennialist future millennium, arguing that they will not sin or die for 1000 years, and yet at the first sight of their master Satan rise up in rebellion against Jesus and the Church? This is deception on a scale never seen before in history! Premillennialists support this circus and yet cannot seem to see the major contradiction in their portrayal.

Good work WPM, a truthful hammer against pre-millennialism's false teachings

I read all 24 points and only disagree with the claim of a renewed-regenerated earth in point 13, yes we agree on much, like 96%

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

Yes we do agree on much but not all WPM

The scripture below and Strongs definition of the Hebrew word (Bara) silences your claims of this present earth abiding forever, 2 Peter 3:10-13 adds to this fact, it will be "dissolved" to its very "elements"

You quote scripture stating the earth abideth forever? It will abide forever, in a New "Earth" its not Mars, Venus, or Pluto but "Earth"

I have presented God's words concerning this truth, Kim Riddlebarger and reformed theology that you follow are in "Error"

(I Create) not (Renewed/Restored/Regeneration)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

You didn't actually address one single point I made in your response. You pretty much simply cut and paste what you had previous said. This is a common trait in your posts. Please address my scriptural arguments.

The Hebrew word bârâ' means to create, shape, form or fashion. In Scripture it refers to what God does to the heaven and earth, to man. The word describes new conditions and circumstances and transformations. This is in keeping with what I presented.

Revelation 21:1 proclaims: “And I saw a new [Gr. kainos] heaven and a new [Gr. kainos] earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea.”

It goes on to say in verse 5 that God makes “all things new [Gr. kainos].”

Please note: it does not say He makes ‘all new things’. To create a new arrangement does not require the complete destruction / replacement of what we now have. It requires the creation of a new perfect glorified environment that is purged of all the bondage of corruption (the result of the Fall). So, this does not negate the renewal/regeneration of this current decaying earth.

This is pictured in God's redemptive work with us. 2 Corinthians 5:17 confirms: “if any man be in Christ, he is a new [Gr. kainos] creature: old things are passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; behold, all things are become new [Gr. kainos].”

Please notice: Paul uses the same terms “new” and “passed away,” talking about the condition of regenerated believers after salvation, as John does in Revelation 21 describing the new heavens and earth. The exact same Greek construction is found in both of these writings.

Revelation 21:1 proclaims: “And I saw a new [Gr. kainos] heaven and a new [Gr. kainos] earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Interestingly, the same Greek words are used to describe the both acts of regeneration.

 

[WPM]

I am adding this to my list. I give Timtofly a shout out for highlighting this today.

(25) Premillennialists have no answer to the climactic detail of “the day of the Lord” passages like 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3 in Scripture. To allow their beliefs, they normally reject the idea that “the day of the Lord” is a single day in time, and argue it is a literal 1000 years+ day. They do this with several climactic passages. The first problem is: Scripture does not teach that. The second problem is: they fail to see that any “day” in Scripture, regardless of how long it is, is always characterized (for its duration) by the actual detail (or description) attributed to it. In this case, their supposed future millennium is a day of ongoing destruction and desolation. What they also miss is that the day of the Lord “arrives as a thief in the night” (2 Peter 3:10) and brings "sudden destruction" from His appearance (1 Thessalonians 5:3), whereupon, the wicked "shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:3). This exposes their unobjective approach to the sacred text.

 

[WPM]

Yes we do agree on much but not all WPM

The scripture below and Strongs definition of the Hebrew word (Bara) silences your claims of this present earth abiding forever, 2 Peter 3:10-13 adds to this fact, it will be "dissolved" to its very "elements"

You quote scripture stating the earth abideth forever? It will abide forever, in a New "Earth" its not Mars, Venus, or Pluto but "Earth"

I have presented God's words concerning this truth, Kim Riddlebarger and reformed theology that you follow are in "Error"

(I Create) not (Renewed/Restored/Regeneration)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

Creation is not “finished” when Jesus comes; it is changed, it is renewed, it is glorified, it is perfected. What is finished is the bondage of corruption. It is purged from creation forever. This is another truth that negates Premil. Creation will be restored so that the redeemed and glorified creature.

When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Premils have no answer to the fact that Scripture shows the regeneration of the earth, heavens and elements to occur at Christ’s return, not after some supposed future millennial kingdom blighted with sin and sinners, dying and crying, corruption and crime, war and terror of the Premil scenario, including the pointless slaughter of countless innocent animals during that period.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.

I agree with what Albert Barnes says on “the regeneration" here: “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here. It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old, when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, "Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration-be signally honored and blessed.”

Glorification of this earth

Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.

Acts 3:19-21: “the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’). What God created, and man corrupted, will be restored, renewed and revealed. That is what God does!

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored [Gr. apokathistemi] whole, like as the other.”

Likewise, in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored [Gr. apokathistemi], and saw every man clearly.”

This passage is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.”

Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

We are clearly looking at a renovation, reconstitution and restoration of creation when Jesus comes, not a complete recreation.

I am not going to fall out with someone over whether this earth will be regenerated by fire or whether it will be a brand spanking new earth when Jesus comes. What I do fervently believe is that the new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. The corruptible earth that we currently live on, and the sinful age we presently exist in, are coming to a definite notable finale.

 

[WPM]

Yes we do agree on much but not all WPM

The scripture below and Strongs definition of the Hebrew word (Bara) silences your claims of this present earth abiding forever, 2 Peter 3:10-13 adds to this fact, it will be "dissolved" to its very "elements"

You quote scripture stating the earth abideth forever? It will abide forever, in a New "Earth" its not Mars, Venus, or Pluto but "Earth"

I have presented God's words concerning this truth, Kim Riddlebarger and reformed theology that you follow are in "Error"

(I Create) not (Renewed/Restored/Regeneration)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish [Gr. apollumi]; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

To “perish” here equates to ‘waxing old’ and necessitates them to “be changed.”

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth and an eternally righteous state.

This change is evidently seismic. It is so drastic that it will be as if the earth was annihilated and replaced by another earth. That is because the destructive and debilitating curse of corruption is finally and eternally purged by fire from the globe. Like the repentant sinner, this earth has received its emersion in water, it is now awaiting its baptism of fire.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I’m sorry for your loss.

 

[WPM]

I’m sorry for your loss.

Do you have anything of biblical substance to add to the subject?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Do you have anything of biblical substance to add to the subject?

To add to the subject? It’s too contentious.
My prayer is that we all strive daily to be more Christ like.

 

[WPM]

To add to the subject? It’s too contentious.
My prayer is that we all strive daily to be more Christ like.

End-times can be contentious. But it is crucial. We may see things from different angles but we cannot ignore it. Sadly, the visible church overwhelmingly got the First Advent wrong when Jesus came 2000 years ago. It is good to be challenged. Most people just believe what they have been taught.

 

[MA2444]

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

Correct me if I'm wrong but, this sounds like you do not trust the word of God? Like God cannot get a legible coded message to you across the ages?! Doesn't it say He is not the author of confusion? That is very simple? You can trust what the text says.

I believe that God says what He means and He means what He says. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth? (John 16:13)

So if you're not Premillenial anymore, does that mean you are Amillenial?

 

[WPM]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, this sounds like you do not trust the word of God? Like God cannot get a legible coded message to you across the ages?! Doesn't it say He is not the author of confusion? That is very simple? You can trust what the text says.

I believe that God says what He means and He means what He says. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth? (John 16:13)

So if you're not Premillenial anymore, does that mean you are Amillenial?

Yes, I am now Amil, and as you can see from my posts, i very much trust the Word of God. Are you Premil?

How do we determine the meaning and sense of symbols and numbers in Revelation? How do we determine what is literal and what is figurative? How do we know what is the correct interpretation?

 

[MA2444]

Yes, I am now Amil, and as you can see from my posts, i very much trust the Word of God. Are you Premil?

How do we determine the meaning and sense of symbols and numbers in Revelation? How do we determine what is literal and what is figurative? How do we know what is the correct interpretation?

I am premil. This may or may not sound twilight zone, but Our God is the one who tells the end from the beginning, right?

So in order to decode Revelation we have to go to the OT in earnest and everything is sorta laid out as types and shadows of what is to come. I admit I havent studied Revelation for a while now. I'm in Exodus with Moses and Aaron.

It is all in there I would think. I'm aware that there is some debate about the Chronological order of Revelation and remember seeing a lot of symbolism in Revelation. The books of the Prophets decode some of revelation.