25 reasons why you should abandon Premillennialism

[WPM]

I am premil. This may or may not sound twilight zone, but Our God is the one who tells the end from the beginning, right?

So in order to decode Revelation we have to go to the OT in earnest and everything is sorta laid out as types and shadows of what is to come. I admit I havent studied Revelation for a while now. I'm in Exodus with Moses and Aaron.

It is all in there I would think. I'm aware that there is some debate about the Chronological order of Revelation and remember seeing a lot of symbolism in Revelation. The books of the Prophets decode some of revelation.

I think that is the major mistake most Premils make: they try and interpret the NT through the lens of the OT, when it should be the opposite.

John lends many Old Testament sayings, locations, events and images to impress deep spiritual truth about the future. In doing so he is simply advancing the past and that which has happened in the past to explain the future. Therefore, when John unveils the prophecy of Revelation, he does so in symbolic form by advancing many familiar Old Testament sayings, locations, events and images to, in some way, impress how the future will unfold. We can be confident in what God has done in the past and take comfort that he will as an unchanged God perform the same in the future.

Ignorance of New Testament truth leads many to a distorted and erroneous understanding of Old Testament truth. Ironically, and paradoxically, especially allowing for how they describe themselves, many Futurists choose to live in the past. They understand ethnic Israel today in an old covenant sense, rather than a new covenant context. It is as if the old covenant is still active and valid and the new covenant has yet to arrive. Futurists seem unable (or unwilling) to recognize the seismic shift that occurred through the introduction of the new covenant. When pressed, they continually run back to the Old Testament for some type of support for a favored place for national Israel, a return of the Jews to their ancient land boundaries, the reintroduction of the old covenant apparatus, including a rebuilt physical temple, animal blood sacrifices, and a restored Old Testament priesthood. They have to pitch their tent in the Hebrew Scriptures because they have absolutely no endorsement in the New Testament for their theological model.

Sensible and enlightened Bible scholars place greater emphasis on the New Testament because it is the fuller revelation and it is where we now reside. God’s truth has been a gradual progressive unfolding and unveiling of truth to mankind from the beginning. The change and advancement that came with the New Testament era did not jettison the old Hebrew promises but rather fulfilled them. The doctrinal light became a lot clearer with Christ’s appearance and vivid illumination of the whole dynamic between the Old and the New Testament and the first and second advents. Our Lord removed the existing vail, dispelled the religious mist and has shed much-needed light on God’s redemptive plan.

That is why theologians insist: “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.” Steve Lehrer wisely advises: “read the Old Covenant Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant Scriptures” (New Covenant Theology: Questions Answered).

The New Testament is latent in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is patent in the New Testament. As Reformed Theologian Vern Poythress explains: “The significance of a type is not fully discernible until the time of fulfillment … In other words, one must compare later Scripture to earlier Scripture to understand everything” (Understanding Dispensationalists).

 

[Truth7t7]

Most people just believe what they have been taught.

Including WPM who follows the teachings in reformed theology

 

[WPM]

Including WPM who follows the teachings in reformed theology

I was not privileged to be brought up with that truth, I found it in the inspired pages through my own study. Your fight is obviously with the Book. That is why you avoid so many rebuttals and try and constantly distract and name-call.

How about addressing the many posts above that refute your position and which you have carefully avoided?

 

[Truth7t7]

I was not privileged to be brought up with that truth, I found it in the inspired pages through my own study. Your fight is obviously with the Book. That is why you avoid so many rebuttals and try and constantly distract and name-call.

How about addressing the many posts above that refute your position and which you have carefully avoided?

You have cited (Kim Riddlebarger) (Albert Barnes) reformed theologians several times, you follow reformed theology, you have refuted nothing, the New Heaven and Earth will be a completely (New Creation) as I have shown you many times, and it's not going to change

 

[WPM]

You have cited (Kim Riddlebarger) (Albert Barnes) reformed theologians several times, you follow reformed theology, you have refuted nothing, the New Heaven and Earth will be a completely (New Creation) as I have shown you many times, and it's not going to change

Can you address the biblical evidence I presented above?

 

[Truth7t7]

Can you address the biblical evidence I presented above?

I have addressed your claims of a renewed/regenerated/refurbished earth several times, no need to show you again, the rest of your post I agree with

 

[WPM]

I have addressed your claims of a renewed/regenerated/refurbished earth several times, no need to show you again, the rest of your post I agree with

All you do is cut-and-paste evasive replies. You have no rebuttal to bring to the table.

 

[Truth7t7]

All you do is cut-and-paste evasive replies. You have no rebuttal to bring to the table.

God states "create" in Isaiah 65:17 below,you deny the very clear word of God before your eyes

You show how others claim last day doesn't mean last day and I agree, however your words are hypocritical because you don't believe create means create, there ya have it

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[WPM]

God states "create" in Isaiah 65:17 below,you deny the very clear word of God before your eyes

You show how others claim last day doesn't mean last day and I agree, however your words are hypocritical because you don't believe create means create, there ya have it

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I have already addressed this. The Hebrew word bârâ' means to create, shape, form or fashion. In Scripture it refers to what God does to the heaven and earth, to man. The word describes new conditions and circumstances and transformations. This is in keeping with what I presented.

Revelation 21:1 proclaims: “And I saw a new [Gr. kainos] heaven and a new [Gr. kainos] earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea.”

It goes on to say in verse 5 that God makes “all things new [Gr. kainos].”

Please note: it does not say He makes ‘all new things’. To create a new arrangement does not require the complete destruction / replacement of what we now have. It requires the creation of a new perfect glorified environment that is purged of all the bondage of corruption (the result of the Fall). So, this does not negate the renewal/regeneration of this current decaying earth.

This is pictured in God's redemptive work with us. 2 Corinthians 5:17 confirms: “if any man be in Christ, he is a new [Gr. kainos] creature: old things are passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; behold, all things are become new [Gr. kainos].”

Please notice: Paul uses the same terms “new” and “passed away,” talking about the condition of regenerated believers after salvation, as John does in Revelation 21 describing the new heavens and earth. The exact same Greek construction is found in both of these writings.

Revelation 21:1 proclaims: “And I saw a new [Gr. kainos] heaven and a new [Gr. kainos] earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Interestingly, the same Greek words are used to describe the both acts of regeneration.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have already addressed this. The Hebrew word bârâ' means to create, shape, form or fashion. In Scripture it refers to what God does to the heaven and earth, to man. The word describes new conditions and circumstances and transformations. This is in keeping with what I presented.

Revelation 21:1 proclaims: “And I saw a new [Gr. kainos] heaven and a new [Gr. kainos] earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea.”

It goes on to say in verse 5 that God makes “all things new [Gr. kainos].”

Please note: it does not say He makes ‘all new things’. To create a new arrangement does not require the complete destruction / replacement of what we now have. It requires the creation of a new perfect glorified environment that is purged of all the bondage of corruption (the result of the Fall). So, this does not negate the renewal/regeneration of this current decaying earth.

This is pictured in God's redemptive work with us. 2 Corinthians 5:17 confirms: “if any man be in Christ, he is a new [Gr. kainos] creature: old things are passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; behold, all things are become new [Gr. kainos].”

Please notice: Paul uses the same terms “new” and “passed away,” talking about the condition of regenerated believers after salvation, as John does in Revelation 21 describing the new heavens and earth. The exact same Greek construction is found in both of these writings.

Revelation 21:1 proclaims: “And I saw a new [Gr. kainos] heaven and a new [Gr. kainos] earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Interestingly, the same Greek words are used to describe the both acts of regeneration.

And I responded with that below, created in Genesis 1:1 is the very same action that will take place in Isiah 65:17 create, both verses mention the words heaven earth and are in the same context, it's that simple, we disagree

(I Create) not (I Renew/Regenerate)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

 

[WPM]

And I responded with that below, created in Genesis 1:1 is the very same action that will take place in Isiah 65:17 create, both verses mention the words heaven earth and are in the same context, it's that simple, we disagree

(I Create) not (I Renew/Regenerate)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions
בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 54x
The KJV translates Strong's H1254 in the following manner: create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x).

Continually cutting and pasting and ducking around the rebuttals tells everyone you have no viable response.

 

[Truth7t7]

Continually cutting and pasting and ducking around the rebuttals tells everyone you have no viable response.

We Disagree, And Yes The Forum Is Watching Our Exchange

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

We Disagree, And Yes The Forum Is Watching Our Exchange

Jesus Is The Lord

Is there nothing else that stands out to you than that?

 

[Truth7t7]

Is there nothing else that stands out to you than that?

WPM I agree with the vast majority of what you post, our disagreement on whether the new earth will be renewed or created is a very minor issue, and the reason I don't want to argue the point further, your 25 points are excellent and a great tool for many to learn from, Pre-Millennialism is a lie!

 

[WPM]

WPM I agree with the vast majority of what you post, our disagreement on whether the new earth will be renewed or created is a very minor issue, and the reason I don't want to argue the point further, your 25 points are excellent and a great tool for many to learn from, Pre-Millennialism is a lie!

Agreed!

 

[Ghada]

25 reasons why...​

I've learned there are only 1 or 2 reasons needed to believe or reject any doctrine or prophecy: when specific Scripture proves or contradicts them.

I have also learned that those having no specific verse to prove it, or worse having specific verses contradicting it, that they need to have instead prolonged arguments and long-winding scholarship, for reason to believe and teach something of their own anyway.

A sign of deceit, duplicity, and forced error is measured by how long it takes to make the point. All truth is simple, and so getting to the point can be done in one or two verses quoted with reasonable understanding.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

This rule of rightly dividing the word of truth in the simplest way, ensures we don't have to wade through long-winded stuff of many, many words:

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can just graze over it to find anything that sticks out as against the Bible, or is obviously misstating a doctrine or prophecy, and just rebuke it and leave it at that.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20.

In this case it doesn't take long at all. We see the deceitful tactic of purposely misframing an argument and/or it's source, in order to logically reject it.

Once this is done, then the dishonesty of the opposition is exposed, and his whole argument is known as a covering fraud without verifiable proof.

The prophecy of the Lord's Millennium reign standing and dwelling upon the earth for a thousand years, begins with the oldest of prophecies, that the Lord Himself will come to the earth and inherit and rule over all nations.

Rev 20 is only the last details of the Lord's reign of righteousness and execution of law through all the earth.

Christ's Millennium upon the earth is no more isolated to Rev 20, than His coming in the flesh is isolated to Isaiah 53.

 

[Ghada]

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point.

When the unbelievers symbolize the Bible into fable, then there is no point in arguing with willing ignorance.

I have found many do so, not because they have a problem with miracles, nor even with the true revelations of hell and the Lord's Millennium. But rather they seek to use such fable making of the Bible, in order to undermine the Bible as God's sure law and commandment, with judgment of works.

They are unrepented workers of iniquity, that are hardened against repenting of all their sinning for Jesus' sake. And rather than just honestly declare their unbelief in parts of the Bible they don't like, they instead try to make the Bible appear to be lying against it's own plain words.

Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist.

We see here how we are not dealing with any semblance of honesty about the Bible.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

They actually think that because they willingly blind themselves the plain words of a Book, that others will somehow be impressed by all the abundance of arguments to cover it.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

 

[Ghada]

It's obvious why unrepented sinners want to do away with a tormenting hell and lake of fire for the unrepented wicked, but doing away with the Lord's Millennium rule standing upon the earth, is not so clear.

But the motive is clear enough, because they most all also preach unconditional salvation for themselves. So why not also prophecy for themselves their own form of present 'spiritual' reigning in the air?

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Not only by doctrine alone are they thus unconditionally saved forever, but now also by prophecy alone, they are unconditionally reigning forever. They've got both heaven and earth now covered for themselves forever.

Present spiritual reigning without end, while doing both good or evil, is the serpent's prophecy of being as gods forever.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And so we see by doctrinal and prophetic fiat, that they not only secure unconditional salvation to themselves, but also secure unconditional immunity from the second death. If they can convince themselves that they really are presently reigning in the air as gods with their very own christ, then they can convince themselves such reigning can never possibly end.

And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

They want the assuredness of reining with the resurrected Lord, but they don't want the Lord's Millennium. They want to be set apart from the power of the second death as reigning gods, but they don't want to be counted worthy of reigning with Him by sure judgement of their works.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Once we learn the personal motive behind such serpentine gymnastics, we then can at least understand the depths of intellectual insult they blatantly descend to. Such as the apostle inserting “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist.

Or rather where they say it ought not exist.

 

[Truth7t7]

The prophecy of the Lord's Millennium reign standing and dwelling upon the earth for a thousand years, begins with the oldest of prophecies, that the Lord Himself will come to earth and inherit and rule over all nations.

Not one word in the holy Bible shows of a literal 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth "Nowhere"

I waiting on your biblical scripture to be presented, in supporting your claim of this literal thousand years that Jesus will be on this earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

When the dishonest symbolize the Bible into fable, then there is no point in arguing.

I have found many do so, not because they have a problem with miracles, nor even with the true revelations of hell and the Lord's Millennium. But rather they seek to use such fable making of the Bible, in order to undermine the Bible as God's sure law and commandment, with judgment of works.

They are unrepented workers of iniquity, that are hardened against repenting of all their sinning for Jesus' sake. And rather than just honestly declare their unbelief, they make through mental gymnastics the Bible appear in certain places to be lying against it's own plain words.


We see how we are not dealing with any semblance of honesty about the Bible.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

They actually think that because they willingly blind themselves the plain words of a Book, that others will somehow be impressed by all the abundance of arguments to cover it.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.