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Featured 42. Are We Free to Ignore God's Law if We are "Under Grace"?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by "ByGrace", Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha...you are feisty tonight my sister!
     
  2. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 7:18-19 KJV
    [18] For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


    Tecarta Bible
     
  3. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this, so I am not sure why you brought it up. The only reason I can think of is my question about if we could keep the law, would we need grace to save us.

    The law is not the problem: the flesh is. Thus, this verse is correct in that the law made nothing perfect because the flesh cannot be perfected.
     
  4. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    My bad was just being in agreement
     
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  5. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we are free to ignore God's Law .....even if we think we are under Grace.
    If you want to covet, go right ahead, isn't it the general consensus!.....if you want to break faith and be friendly with that honey next door, why not, doesn't God want us to enjoy life?..... if you want to lie because it'll give you a tax break you can always persuade yourself you'll have more to give to the missionary fund!.....perhaps you insist on breaking the Sabbath of the fourth Commandment and why not, hasn't God closed his eyes to that one along time ago? ahhhh no, he changed his mind from it being the seventh day to the first day of the week....isn't that what you've heard?.....ohhhhhh, and stealing aint so bad if you call it borrowing......and don't forget that all these 'liberties' aren't classed as having other Gods anyway! ....Yes, we are even free to step in front of an eighteen wheeler barreling down the highway if the pressure gets too much.

    We are free to make whatever choices we choose. I won't twist your arm and neither will God. There are however consequences, serious at that.....It is that very Law which is played fast and loose that will be the standard of judgement which all men will be compelled to give account.

    You better be clear on this stuff. Do you really think that you'll have God's righteous judgement when your turn comes and you deliver up all your justifications? Do you really think one can deliberately behave contrary to God's Law of Life with impunity by pleading the blood of Jesus?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  6. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Grace is the fulfillment of the law. Without it we die. So, no, to ignore the law, would be to ignore God and life. But it is not because we are under the law, but rather under God, against whom there is no law. In this way we have overcome the law which is unto death, and attained life. God is life.

    So then, under the law we die, which is to say, the law is death, and death by the wrath of God. But under God we have life.
     
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  7. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Amen...good way of saying it...makes it clear and balanced
     
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  8. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    I like the emphasis on the FREE...:)

    Yes, we are free....if we not mind losing everything st the end , ....have it now or later , lose life to keep it , or keep I’ve to lose it!
    The “cake “ cannot be eaten now, but also enjoyed later .
     
  9. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    So no Christians ever get unreasonably angry with their spouse, or fudge a little on their tax returns?
     
  10. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I wonder sometimes if people are aware that God can read? That if they were aware that an angel was looking over their shoulder as they type out their dodgy excuses for sin and rebellion (transgression against the law) and reported every word to the Master to be recorded faithfully to be used/or discarded as the case may be at a later time, perhaps they may be somewhat more circumspect as they downplay and reduce the character of God and the written exposition of His righteousness to a hazy fudgy voluntary recommendation rather than the awesome standard of holiness that it truly is.
    "We don't have to obey the law?" Seriously? We don't have to obey God? Are we all really thinking this through? Is obedience now an optional extra for which we get extra ice cream the more often we manage it without tripping up? Was Solomon lying when he said under the inspiration of the holy Spirit Eccl.13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    Was Paul lying when he spoke under inspiration, agreeing with Solomon saying,
    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Does anyone really think that God was excusing Christians when he declared through Paul ,
    Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Now before someone says, we don't need the law to tell us not to do any of the above, I would agree. What we need the law for is to remind us of the standard and to inform us to run to Christ every time we fail to attain to it. And as I look around the forums (not just here) I have witnessed many Christians who express disdain for the law, claiming they "are not under it", yet at the same time abusing other Christians who would graciously point out to them that the manner in which they often engage other members, several of those "works of the flesh" are brightly manifested and displayed before all. Are Christians exempt to such practices? Does the admonition "shall not inherit" exclude those who claim Christ as their Saviour? Dare anyone claim that a non-believer must never lust after a neighbours wife, because such practice will exclude him from the kingdom, but a Christian can do so with impunity? Or would you try and convince me that Christians cannot possibly sin, but in the next breath claim they cannot obey the commandments either? Before you accuse me of being legalistic, I would remind you that I didn't write those Ten Commandments, nor was it me who stood upon the mount and proclaimed that not one full stop or hyphen shall be removed from the law until all is fulfilled. As I look around at the world around me, I cannot say with any conviction yet that all God's purposes for mankind are yet fulfilled. Can you?
    Christ came to exalt the law and make it honourable. Can we do any less if we have the Spirit of Christ abiding within?
     
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  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    It's the exception, not the rule. Personally, I use the Ten Commandments to censor my thoughts and imaginations so I don't let temptation turn into sin.
     
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  12. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Except for the 4th. Reason, theological gymnastics as well as denial used by most to turn the ten into nine. Like stone is only temporary and God's writing with a pencil with an eraser at the blunt end.
     
  13. Bible_Gazer

    Bible_Gazer Active Member

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    From what I read and heard
    There is 613 OT laws
    There is 1050 NT laws - some of the OT laws was carried over into the NT church

    The OT laws was on paper, that couldn't give life, no strength from it to give.
    It was the laws of death since nobody could keep all of it.
    NT has power by having faith in Jesus which has the power to give life.
    He is our help in keeping the NT laws in the spirit, the laws is to be written on our heart.

    Romans 8:2 (KJV)
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    Romans 8:4 (KJV)
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Hebrews 10:16 (KJV)
    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord,
    I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    I rest every Saturday and study the word. But most prefer Sunday.
     
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  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem with not sorting out what law means in the context. There is the law of Moses, the law of God, and the works of the law. Then there is the law of sin and death in our members, the law of the Spirit of life...and the law of faith.

    So until these are differentiated there is no way to communicate.., and no way to understand the biblical text.

    Jesus didn't come to replace the law...but to fulfill it. And those who have received grace establish the law by faith.
     
  16. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Is there really a difference or are they all really synonyms?

    I have looked into whether there is a difference between the law of God and the law of Moses. Some have claimed the the 10 Commandments are the Law of God and the rest is the Law of Moses. Such folks have claimed we are still under the Law of God, but not that of Moses.

    The problem with that is 2 Cor 3 (while not clearly mentioning the 10 Commandments directly) tells us that the law engraved on stone is done away with and is abolished. Furthermore, it seems to attribute it to Moses.

    In short, that chapter doesn't directly say, "the 10 Commandments are the law of Moses, and they are abolisshed." .Not directly, word for word, but that is what it comes down to.

    So if you can show a clear difference between all these sets of laws, I'd be happy to have a look.
     
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  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You are drawing the opposite conclusion from the truth of the text. Having the law engraved on our hearts makes the law MORE important to keep than just on tablets of stone.
    This is why the whole counsel of God is crucial to understanding the individual ideas in the text.

    Jer. 31:33 “But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

    God becomes MORE stringent in the keeping of His laws under grace.

    We are only made God's people by His law and by our obedience to His law.

    We uphold the law by faith.

    Do we nullify law through faith? No! On the contrary, we uphold law" (Romans 3:31)

    So then the law of Christ fulfills the law of God.
     
  18. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Then why were they done away with and abolished?
     
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  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    It's the works of the law that are abolished...Judaism. Judaism is the effort to religiously fulfill the law. No man can fulfill the law of God by trying hard in their own strength.

    It takes a higher law to overcome law.

    I have said this many times....but I don't think it is understood.


    The law of flight overcomes the law of gravity. Birds can fly by this law. That's what it means when the bible says...you shall mount up with wings as eagles.

    And at this time where men can fly in planes, you'd think we would have a better grasp of law than did the early Christians. But the opposite is true.
     
  20. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry, but I don't see in 2 Cor 3 that the works of the law were abolished. The chapter speaks of the actual writing and reading of the law. It even says "the letter killeth.. " (it doesn't say the works killeth).

    You said earlier that we keep the law by faith. That I agree with. That doesn't mean we actually and physically keep the law.
     
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