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Featured 42. Are We Free to Ignore God's Law if We are "Under Grace"?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by "ByGrace", Apr 14, 2019.

  1. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    No. grace frees us from the condemnation of the law. Grace also frees us from sin. But in the sense that I think you mean, that grace frees us from our obligation to obey God...nah. Don't see it.
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Don't distort what I said. It is not faith of Christ, but faith in Christ. It is not Easter, it is Passover. Just two errors to illustrate what I'm talking about.
    Law as a point of study is not the issue. It is requiring legalism, such as SDA Sabbath keeping.
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I never said that. Christ preached the intention of the law, not the letter of the law.
     
  4. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I think the term is objective genitive, for 'faith in Christ' - sometimes expressed in the King James 'the faith of Christ'.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a Catholic carryover. Like Easter for Passover.

    Either way it is wrong.
     
  6. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    As regards the King James's use of 'faith of Christ', I guess the point is that grammatically the Greek there which sometimes literally seems to say 'the faith of Christ' should indeed be understood as 'faith in Christ'; hence the grammarians' term 'objective genitive'.
     
  7. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu New Member

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    Shalom ByGrace, and family of Yahweh,

    This question is the biggest question facing Christians today:
    As for my opinion, I can answer both yes AND no. Not yes OR no. What I mean is this...

    I think we ought to observe the Torah even though we are free NOT to.

    True, the blood of our Lord Yahushua (Jesus) can redeem all who believe in Him, but what then? What of our service to Him? How do we love Him with all our heart and strength? Good works and loving each other is very good, but when no such opportunities surround you, what then? Has your service stopped?

    Consider our salvation in light of the Exodus. Israel were set free from Egypt (or sin) but because of a promise, not because of their righteousness or anything they done - just like us. There were set free in order to serve Yahweh - just like us. Once they learned how to be obedient, they were taken to the Promised Land - just like we hope to be.

    The blueprint above serves well for the Christian life. To ignore it is like saying "Israel were freed from Egypt and taken straight to the Promised Land a few days later. They were told to love one another like yourself and everything worked out fine, there were no issues". Hard to believe, right? Haven't we all met Christian's of different levels of obedience? Whether it be homosexual priests or those with idols in their house.

    Israel was trained to serve through the Torah, which is also there to teach and guide us today. However, we are now free to be willingly obedient out of love, rather than obedient only out of fear or begrudgingly.

    Now, not all the Torah can be followed today. There certainly are not 613 commands to follow. The Temple isn't standing, some laws relate to one sex and there are many commandments you will keep naturally today. What then? Shall we pick and choose what we want to follow? Well, not quite. I believe the Spirit will convict us on what to keep of the Torah the more we read it and reread it. But let's get a little more foundational...

    Consider the original Covenant of Yahweh and Israel. The Covenant is detailed from Exodus 20 to 23 and is confirmed and sealed with blood. These were the conditions of the Covenant. However, after this, Israel soon fell and worshiped a Golden Calf. It seems that from then the rest of the Torah (the Levitical laws etc) were added due to this transgression (see Galatians 3:19). Israel proved they needed a "schoolmaster" Torah to lead them carefully in all their ways.

    However, the Tablets of the Covenant (and likely the "book of the Covenant") was placed INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant whilst the Book of the Torah was placed OUTSIDE the Ark. Now, if these Covenant tablets of stone were to be replaced with our heart in the Renewed Covenant, wouldn't that include the Sabbath? Wouldn't it also include to love our Father with our whole heart and to honour our Father "so that it will go well" with us? It's food for thought. Seek the Spirit's conviction on this matter.

    Therefore, even though we are free to NOT follow Torah, which is outside our "Ark" (that is, our heart), we are also free to follow Torah for the purposes of training and righteous direction. "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" ~ 2 Timothy 3:14-17.

    In conclusion, rather than the Israel of old, who followed the Torah out of fear, legalism, or in attempt to attain righteousness, we are free to choose to follow it or not. Those who are called to - will. Those who aren't - won't. But ask yourself this: If our salvation and righteousness has been fulfilled for us, in the Lord Yahushua, what will you choose to do with your freedom? Will you be like the servant in Exodus 21:5 who chooses to still serve his master even though he is free not to?

    As for me, I choose to follow the Torah as I am convicted by the Spirit. Not out of legalism or to attain salvation. But simply because I'm free to and as another form of expression of love for Almighty Yahweh. Surely it's better to learn and live by Torah than a Christian self-help book from a TV preacher!

    Love & Shalom
     
  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    A very good response. :) It can be scary how people with the Hebrew inclination also take on the Jewish inclination in it.

    We are indeed free to observe as we see fit....without looking down on others who don't do as we do. We are free indeed.

    God loves for His people to be free and creative in their worship. Legalistic people hate this as they think that they are justified by doing exactly as they are doing. But it is about the heart as you say.

    The command of God is to love. Love is the bond of perfection. This is the law of God.

    God told me to learn Hebrew giving me an insatiable desire to dig into His word...His torah. But it is out of devotion.....and personal obedience to what He has asked ME to do. Not others.

    Then there are the Messianics who take things like sabbath keeping too far. They take Israel worship as a replacement for the worship of God...a common Jewish aberration.

    But you have a good balance in your approach. So I commend you for it! :)

    Shalom lecha!
     
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  9. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu New Member

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    Shalom Episkopos,

    Thank you for your kind words! Alas, it took me much time to find the balance...

    Indeed! I used to be that type... At first, I was without Torah at all as a born-again Christian. Then, I was a Messianic and zealous to follow Torah. But, before I knew it, I forgot the weighter matters of love, understanding, patience and peace with my brothers and sisters. My knowledge puffed me up and made me look down on all who weren't on my "level". I was so foolish. Our Father taught me this kindly but surely would have got more severe, had I not listened and be willing to change again. Now, I call myself a Christian for the sake of witness, but see myself as a merger of both. I will post on this matter separately actually but, basically, I believe both Christians and Messianics are right and wrong equally. Both need to merge and share.

    Yes, love conquers all. Love covers a multitude of sins. Love is the goal of the Torah - the very point of it and the reason we are all here today. We must never lose sight and "feel" of that.

    However, to those who assume love is anti-Torah, or that to willingly and joyfully observe Sabbath or the Feasts is coming "under the law", be very careful. Convicted, willful and joyful obedience should be celebrated, not berated.

    But like you said, it's not for everyone. It reminds me of Paul's comment "In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use." ~ 2 Timothy 2:20. That's not to say observers are the special ones! Rather, that we all have different purposes. But whether we Sabbath & Feast observer or not, the real crime would be to NOT follow how we feel we are led by the Spirit. If we didn't, what then could we say on the Day of Accounting?

    Thanks again for your reply.

    Love & Shalom
     
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  10. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Well-Known Member

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    Yes Helen, your post answered my questions, We are being thankful unto GOD and his Son our Lord Jesus Christ for your patience with us, and we will read those questions, I already read most of them and from a view point, I must say that they are at an interest to answer, which shows where a person mind and heart is, Thanks.

    Below is the song that I heard about while reading the questions:

    trace adkins victory in jesus - Bing video

    Love always, Walter
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  11. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Communication or the lack thereof, is it not? If we seek His kingdom and His righteousness first, how important is communication or the lack thereof?
     
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  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I think the bible gives men enough rope to hang themselves with. If we want to mis-understand...the bible obliges us...
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    You have hung yourself many times.
     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    And who, that has not already completely overcome as Jesus overcame, has not also hung himself in this sense many times. Let us work to improve this failing in ourselves so that we like Jesus will have completely overcome the world and walk therefore in the perfection that the Father is:

    "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

    "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
     
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  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Sanctification means constant growth. Growth requires desire being driven to grow.
     
  16. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

    "He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
     
  17. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi amadeus,

    I think the more we know Jesus now, the more we will be like Him now.

    Much love!
     
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  18. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    This is certainly right as we grow in and toward Him...
    Give God the glory!
     
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