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Featured 42. Are We Free to Ignore God's Law if We are "Under Grace"?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by "ByGrace", Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Again...do you mean Judaism or sinning? No, we are not to be religious. And yes through grace we have the power over sin.

    Grace fulfills the law of God. In Christ is no sin. So when we are in Christ we cannot sin.
     
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  2. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    How can we ignore Gods law?
    According to the bible it is living and has been written into our lives.

    Jesu said 'If you Love me. You will keep my commands.'

    He ( Jesus) sumerised the law int Loving God with ones whole being and in loving other as we love ourselves.

    Are you really saying that we can disregard this?
    If you are, can you please expanned on how you live your live?
    How do you serve God? Do good works etc? If you are not loving God or other people.
     
  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi FHII,

    I think you've hit on the real intent of the list, to throw red herrings and straw men into the mix.

    Do we ignore the Law? Of course not! But does that mean we believe we are bound to it? No. I thought your comments well stated!

    Much love!
    mark
     
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  4. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I am referring to 2 Cor 3 and that chapter is referring to the Law of Moses which includes the 10 Commandments.
     
  5. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You are obfuscating here. Is this thread about 2 Cor. 3? So you are going sideways rather than forward. If you are unable to discuss the OP...just say so. ;)
     
  6. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I am responding to your responses to me. It seems to me you are clouding the issue by claiming there are many different sets of laws. The OP is about whether we can ignore God's laws. 2 Cor 3 is completely relevant to both the OP and your objections. I do not believe the is a difference between God's Law and Mose's Law. 2Cor 3 suggests I am correct in that point of view and it also tells us that the Law has been abolished and done away with. Therefore, the chapter is relevant to the OP.
     
  7. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    But as I said and am forced to repeat....you are mistaken in your reading of the text. Faith upholds the law which is written on the hearts of those who are born again by the Spirit. There is no need to abolish the law of gravity for birds to fly. Likewise there is no need to abolish God's law for grace to empower us to keep it and fly above it.

    The only thing that has been abolished are the holiness laws (Moses' law)....or temple holiness. Those are the works of the law....circumcision, sabbath keeping, the temple tax...etc

    True holiness is now found in Christ alone.
     
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  8. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    And I will say I have not misunderstood! We will now go to the text:

    2 Corinthians 3:2 KJV
    Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

    Paul is saying the Corinthians are his [our] epistle (not law) written in HIS heart.

    2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV
    Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


    The Church was an epistle, not even a law, and it notes that it was written on fleshly tables of THE heart. Paul is talking about his heart, that of the apostle, not the congregation. Yes, you can go to Hebrews 10 and other places to see that God wrote his law in hearts, but this verse is not talking about that.

    2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV
    Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    This epistle written on Paul's heart is not akin to the law written with ink OR in tables of stone.

    So the 10 Commandments we're written on tables of stone, and everything else with ink. They BOTH are included. I am assuming that you believe the "Holiness" laws or Moses Law are those written with ink. Doesn't matter: both are listed.

    2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV
    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    Is there any doubt in your mind that this is talking about the 10 Commandments? There is even the historical reference here. And that glory (which is called the ministration of death) was done away with.

    This verse isn't talking about the "holiness" laws which we're written with ink. It's talking about the things written in stone.

    2 Corinthians 3:11 KJV
    For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    Again, it was done away with.

    2 Corinthians 3:12 KJV
    Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

    I like this verse... So many people who disagree with Paul like to quote Peter when he said Paul was hard to understand. But here Paul is saying this is plain speech! There is nothing mystical or overly spiritual about it. It's plainly what it is.

    2 Corinthians 3:13 KJV
    And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

    And when did this happen? Did it happen when Moses wrote in ink or when he brought the tablets? Whatever your answer is, that is what was abolished.
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Many people misunderstand this passage, in thinking that the Law was now written on our hearts. That has nothing to do with what God is saying here.

    Good stuff!

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I like @Episkopos example gravity being like God's Law. It makes things go a certain way. And the bird given wings can fly contrary to gravity.

    But gravity limits what that bird can do.

    Just like trying to keep the Law will limit what a Christian can do.

    Better for both the bird, and us, to fly free.

    Much love!
    mark
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi episkopos,

    Would you point me to Scripture on this point?

    Thank you!
    Much love!
     
  12. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Hello

    There are birds that must beat their wings very rapidly to fly while there are also birds that have learnt to soar on the wind thermals and rise up to be taken by the wind into the high places where they can clearly see all that is before them.

    A Christians' life can be like the small bird that is beating its wings very rapidly to be able to fly to draw nourishment from the flowers so that it can continue to fly to the next flower or it can be like the eagle that soars on the spiritual currents that lifts it high up into the heavenly places.

    Both birds have their places in this world however, God wants all of His Saints to be also able to soar and rest in Him, but to do that requires that we grow in maturity in Him and spread our wings out further and further so that we can draw on God's strength and not on our own.

    In both cases we can draw on God's strength and use the laws of physics to fly but when we are beating our wings very fast to fly we become too busy to spend time on the things of God because we have to keep flapping our wings to stay off the ground and in the air/wind.

    Are we a humming bird or an eagle that soars with God?

    Shalom
     
  13. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Hi BG! Romans 6:14-16 answers that succinctly, but if anyone is still in doubt, we should probalby err on the side of caution...which come to think of it woulda saved me a TON of trouble in my younger days. LOL
     
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  14. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    KJV 2 Corinthians 3
    The Ministry from Christ
    1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
    2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    Paul in this passage is speaking of that which testifies to his credentials as a minister of the gospel. The Jews and the nay sayers criticised Paul because he wasn't of the original 12. They declared he had no authority, and like many even today, claimed the gospel he preached was false. Paul was using the very people who were converted, that is the churches he established, as all the evidence needed to validate his ministry. Hearts changed by the power of the holy Spirit, hearts now in conformity and lives living in harmony with the law. This validation was not being offered by Paul as a contradiction or contrast to the written law, but as an affirmation that the law was being proved as honorable seeing that God was confirming his own law by writing it on the hearts of those Paul ministering to.
     
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  15. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Which of the ten Commandments are you free to break?
     
  16. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    A better question would be which one's haven't I broke.
     
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  17. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Jesus paid for the broken ones, now the question is;
    6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
     
  18. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
     
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Which begs the question, are you now free to continue in the very practice which brought about the death of the Son of God?
    And that question itself raises certain other questions which the OP itself I think tends to. Instead of asking, can we neglect the law, I think we should be asking, should we be focusing on the law? Unfortunately, the OPs question forces us to do so, which I think is a mistake. Focusing on Christ and Him crucified will bring us into harmony with the law, on certain conditions.
    • Our willingness to obey those commandments. God will not coerce us to obey Him.
    • Our recognition of the results of not doing so.
    • Our recognition of the overall authority of God in all things.
    • Our repudiation of tradition and the commandments of men which tend to circumvent and replace God's commandments and their authority.
    • Finally our submission to God and our death to self allowing Him to live His life in and through us to His glory. If such a life is not in harmony with His laws, it is not His life.
    "For the carnal man is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be... But ye are not carnal, but spiritual... If ye have the Spirit of God dwelling in you".
     
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  20. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Brakelite, we don't need freedom to break the law... We do that already. We need forgiveness for breaking it. We aren't free to break the law; we are forgiven for being law breakers. Whatever sins we commit, they are forgiven, covered and not imputed to us.
     
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