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Featured 42. Are We Free to Ignore God's Law if We are "Under Grace"?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by "ByGrace", Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I’ve heard of this self elevation. We have a church here in NC called elevation church. All the coloring books that are distributed to the children there are full of pictures of the pastor of the church.
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    More apostasy.
     
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  3. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Before I comment I would need to know what you understand to actually be the "Mosaic" law.
     
  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    All of the laws given by Moses. That does not include the 10 Commandments.
     
  5. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Do you guys follow all the dietary laws?
     
  6. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Only if one makes the assumption that one is keeping the law in order to be saved, an assumption BTW that is made almost every time anyone brings the subject up, and one that is constantly being made throughout this thread, due to a complete lack of understanding of the purpose of grace and the role it plays in sanctification.

    Most people think grace is merely the means by which one is saved. Once one is saved, that shout loudly and proclaim, YAY! I am saved by grace!!! Thankyou Jesus. Then, they have no further use for grace and like Israel after celebrating the destruction of the Egyptians they come to Sinai and think they can do everything else in their own strength. Then, when they fail, they say, oh, the law isn't for us anyway. It's just for sinners, like those people over there.

    How does anyone live a life of consecration and obedience without grace? How does anyone even think to be obedient to God's commandments without grace? How does sin become hateful to the Christian without grace? How can grace and the law, both essential components of God's character, not be in harmony?

    Inherent in the Ten Commandments is the gospel. The first commandment has been edited by most but if we read the entire passage of scripture, we can readily see that God is not commanding us to do the impossible. The Ten Commandments begin:
    Exodus 20:2 ” I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”

    In this small portion of the scripture is found the key to understanding our relationship to God’s laws, and how to find the power to obey them.

    Here is the gospel.
    You may be thinking, “Hey, that first part isn’t a part of the law, because it doesn’t tell us something we must do or not do! Instead, it tells us of something God has done!!!”
    Yes, exactly! And that’s the point. The entire Ten Commandments start with something God has done, and not with something we must do. “I am the Lord thy God who has….” God did not give us His law and then say, ” Okay, if you manage to obey, then heaven is yours”, knowing that we would fail. He knows us well, that we are but dust, morally corrupt, and totally incapable in and of ourselves to render any righteousness that meets God’s requirements. That is why He starts His law with what He has done for us, and not what we are to do for Him.
    God has delivered us from bondage. The deliverance God refers to is a direct reference to the Passover. To the blood of the Lamb. A deliverance only He has accomplished, all by Himself, and without any assistance from us. The Passover was symbolic of Calvary. The shed blood of the lamb pointed forward to the crucifixion. ( John 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:7)

    So when God gave His law, He pointed first back to the Passover, which itself points to the future, the cross. And there you have the gospel embedded within the law, and far from being distinct from one another, the law and gospel compliment one another perfectly.
    Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

    Notice that the part we play in redemption comes after God plays His part. “Come to Me, for I have redeemed thee”. And notice also that Israel’s salvation and redemption and final entrance into Canaan was a process, not a one off act. First, the blood of the lamb brought deliverance from bondage, then came Sinai and the giving of the law, with the power to obey established already on the already accomplished work of God whilst they were yet in bondage.

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Our obedience doesn’t activate God’s grace, as many charge me with. It is God’s saving grace that activates our law-keeping. The power for all true obedience is present in our realization of what God has already done for us in Christ by virtue of His ‘unearnable’ grace.

    We are simply called upon to come alive to and walk in the victory and the freedom from bondage that Christ has won for us.

    Without Christ as the center of the law, without Christ not only as the law-giver but also the empowering agent behind the law, the Ten Commandments degenerate into a mere idealistic code of ethics, a kind of religious “wish-list”. The same goes for all those who look at the law as an impossibly attainable goal; they leave Christ out of the equation, even claiming that it is theologically acceptable to believe that Christ’s death annuls the law.

    God loves us out of sin, and God loves us into obedience.

    Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Justified by Christ’s death, and sanctified by His life. Delivered from bondage by His blood, empowered to remain free by His Spirit.
    And rather than impossible commands, with the love of Jesus motivating and empowering us, the precepts of the Ten Commandments become promises.

    Exodus 20:2 ” I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
     
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  7. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Good question Waiting and relevant to CI's statement above. They way we view the OT laws and statutes is that we leave behind all that pointed forward to, and were fulfilled, by, the coming of the promised Messiah. Such as the Temple services, the priesthood, and the sacrifices etc along with the annual feast days and festivals. All these things were shadows, but the reality is Christ. All these things were type met by antitype. Other laws were given by God to Israel for different purposes. Some were civil laws that pertained to their existence as a theocracy. These cannot be applied to the church as the church is not a political nation state serving under the direct rule of God. Israel didn't even like that idea and asked for a king.
    As for diet. When Israel came out of Egypt, their dietary regime would have been a mess. Like so many today, anything is food and we are "free" to partake of whatever, regardless of its effects on the human body, the Jews wanted to return to the "flesh posts of Egypt"...God was showing them a better way. God reminded them that certain animals were never intended as food. He called them unclean animals. No where will you find God calling anything unclean food. If something was pronounced unclean, it wasn't food. If it were clean, it was suitable for food. God, the Master Manufacturer, was simply giving Israel instructions on how to care for themselves the way He intended...taking away from them the diseases of Egypt. A big reason for those diseases was the filthy food they were eating there...and is it any better today? Are people not falling sick today as a direct result of eating garbage never intended by God to be on the menu? The result is stress, heart attacks, blood disorders, unfitness, obesity, diabetes, cancers, and the list goes on. Oh, and death. But of course the church today can say "grace" and all the filth we put in our mouths is miraculously changed right?

    CI. There is no law in Adventism demanding we eat a certain way. It is however highly recommended, for all the above reasons. And in our church there is a wide gamut of personal responsibility and practice...especially in cultural tradition and practice particularly when it comes to seafood. That's a hard one for many Pacific Islanders. I would imagine the same for Asians and Africans whose cultures for thousands of years have developed certain dietary lifestyles that would be difficult to emerge from. No-one however judges anyone among us for the variations we find in different churches in different countries. Neither should you.
     
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  8. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I would say those Under Grace trust to Believe Jesus Came to Fulfill the Law...

    Matt 5
    [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Then Jesus EXPOUNDS...
    Not YET is "ALL" fulfilled.

    [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    We know there are many not yet born, thus Not yet has Jesus' Fulfillment become Applicable to them.

    We know the Majority of "Israel" (Gods People) have Not yet Accepted Jesus, their Christ Messiah.

    We also know those who "are" IN Christ, are SEALED unto thee Lord God.

    Ignore the Law? No.
    Rather Apply the Law that Applies to you.
    And Remember the Laws that DO Apply;
    FOR a man IN Christ....The Power to KEEP one Obedient TO APPLICABLE LAWS;
    IS Accomplished; BY the Internal Power of God.

    Jesus Came to Earth to Accomplish PARTICULAR things....
    Particularly;
    To OFFER Eternal Life to the World.
    AND
    To DIVIDE those who Accept His OFFERING
    From
    those who REJECT His OFFERING.
    And ONCE He Accomplished what He came to do...
    He said; "It is Finished".

    Jesus SHALL RETURN...
    And SEPARATE...
    The DIVIDED:
    Of those who Accepted His Offering
    From
    Those who Rejected His Offering.

    Once THAT is Accomplished...
    He shall say; "It is Done".

    IN Short...A man Under Grace still has Certain Laws the man IS Bound By....

    IN Short....A man Under Grace is KEPT In Obedience "BY" the Power of the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
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  9. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    ByGrace, a lot of fancy footwork is done when it comes to the law, particularly God's Law. To cut to the chase, The Law of Christ and the Ten Commandments are the same thing. If what is meant by the law of Moses is the Ten Commandments (and I'm assuming that's what you mean) there is a problem because it was Jesus who gave the Ten Commandments on Sinai. (I'm also assuming you knew that)

    When Jesus gave what we today call the Law of Christ, he was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-6....(check it out) then he added 'and the second is like it, love your neighbour as yourself'. The previous chapter, Deuteronomy 5 is a repeat of the Ten Commandments. In this context, if we then call upon the Law of Christ also known as the Law of Grace as a means to negate our obligation to the Ten we are shooting ourselves in the foot and double so if we then use Paul to further negate our obligation to the Ten.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Word! :) <><
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    OK. Just looking for Scripture . . . that's where the truth is.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Much confusion comes from a lack of clarity concerning references to law in the bible. More confusion is added to the initial confusion when the subject of grace comes in. Here is a list of laws as described in the bible. I count 7 of them.


    God's law
    : God is love. As such His commands reflect His nature. If we love then we fulfill the law of God. Against love there is no law.

    The law of Moses: Usually means the laws pertaining to temple holiness. Things like sacrificing the right things at the right time. Being ceremonially clean....pure. Able to enter into the temple through religious rites. Forgiveness of sins through blood atonement.

    The law of righteousness: This entails doing what is right...treating others as you would want to be treated. Being honest in your failings and turning from wickedness....making restitution for the wrongs you have done. Doing all in your own power to obey God and His commands.

    Works of the law: Judaism. (Circumcision, dietary laws, sabbath keeping...etc)

    The law of sin and death
    : The soul that sins it shall die. This is the power that keeps the flesh in the bondage of sin. It is based in the nature of fallen man. It is based on the power of death in our members. It is sin in us.

    The law of the Spirit of life in Christ: This is the grace to walk as Jesus walked in the Spirit. This law is more powerful than the law of sin and death....just as the law of flight overcomes the law of gravity. The spiritual dimension of being taken up (translated) to Zion to walk in the presence of God.

    The law of faith: Our own faith leads to our own righteousness. The faith OF Jesus brings us to the righteousness OF God. For the righteousness to be of God, the faith must be of Christ. This law takes us to the higher law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
     
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  13. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Well-Known Member

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    Hi Helen, but it is not just you:
    God will judge between the quick and the dead: I just woke up from a dream, and I had called my wife on her break, but we will discuss this matter later I guess about God's Law if we are Under Grace?

    http:// 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom:, and more: What is, god will judge between the quick and the dead?

    1 Peter 4:5 But they will have to give an account to Him ...
    https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-5.htm
    but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. They will give an account to the one who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. But they will have to answer to God, who judges the living and the dead.

    42. Are We Free to Ignore God's Law if We are "Under Grace"?
    In our study, we are not to ignore God's Law if we are Under Grace, we establish God's Law Romans 3:31
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  14. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Well-Known Member

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    After reading your post, I must ask you, Where is post 54225, member: 4427 ? can you let us know? please?
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I think of Peter's vision in Acts...
     
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  16. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  17. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Sorry just got back here... :)

    @Willie T 's thread , where I took those questions from is found at =

    We really CAN'T answer some of these

    It's a good thread, but too many people picking out different ones of the questions...I couldn't see a clear answer through to the end. :)
    ( so I picked out just 4 , which I posted )

    Hope that answers your questions.
     
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  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    When did grace and faith become law?

    Grace frees us from the law.
    It is faith in Christ. No one is capable of having the faith of Christ.

    The KJV is again wrong.
     
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Is the KJV also wrong when it declares we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us? That God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think? Both well known verses and among my favourites...please don't tell me that the KJV is wrong in those.
     
  20. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Without the law informing you that you are a sinner, how would you know that you are in need of a Saviour? The giving of the law then was an act of grace.
     
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