7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[6 Stories]

I suggest you study about the day of Christ's return and what Apostle Paul showed about the saints still alive on earth on that day being "caught up" to Jesus. Those still alive are NOT killed. They will be 'changed' at the twinkling of an eye to their "spiritual body" like Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. And the only time when they are before the throne in the heavenly with their reward of a crown is AFTER... Jesus has returned to gather them, and not before.

I don't see crowns on the people in Rev 7. Doesn't that mean that Jesus has not come for them. To me, this is the continuation of those found in heaven in the 5th seal, who also wear white robes, but don't have crowns.

I don't know where in the world you are getting that idea. The only Scripture that even hints to when The Father emphatically returns to earth is what Paul said about the Godhead in 1 Cor.15:23-28 and John in Rev.21, and of course the very last verse of Ezekiel 48.

Rev 6:16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" Those that will gather to fight against God will tremble when he makes his appearance known.

Rev 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." lightnings, thunderings, and voices are used repeatedly to show that the throne of God has come to earth. Every time the throne of God comes to earth, the earth quakes.

Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Rev 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

Rev 6:16, 8:5, 11:19, and 16:18 all describe the throne of God the Father coming to earth. These are all the same event. The throne of God also showed up in Exodus.
Ex 19:16-18
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

That is the time when Jesus comes, on the 2nd part of the 6th Seal. The 7th Seal represents a time of rest. But the order of Jesus coming is 777 (7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial).

I agree with you that Jesus comes during the 2nd part of the 6th seal, the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Vial. However, I don't believe Jesus comes at the 7th seal in Rev 8:1 because Rev 8:5 mentioned above shows the return of the throne of God. From Rev 6, we know that Jesus follows the throne of God.

Rev 14:14-16 and Rev 19:11 also describe the return of Jesus. When the throne of God and or Jesus appears, the story ends. There are 6 stories in the Rev 6-19 that end in this manner.

I think it is better said that after Christ's "thousand years" reign at God's Great White Throne Judgment, is when the 2nd resurrection unto Jesus Christ will happen. That is why the Rev.20:12 says the book of life is opened to see if there are any names written in it. That checking of the book of life at that point is not about those of the "first resurrection". Thus men's leaven doctrine that the inferred 2nd resurrection is about the damned being cast into the lake of fire is not really there in the Scriptures. The implied 2nd resurrection is another one unto eternal Life in Jesus Christ. That is what Christ's "thousand years" reign is for, to preach The Gospel to the unsaved nations that haven't heard so they can make their choice to believe, or not.

I can live with that, but at the same time the 2nd death or lake of fire happens to unbelievers.

No, no, no, no!
That "last trump" is for the "day of the Lord" timing when Jesus comes to end this present time, and gather His faithful Church! What you are saying is that Jesus doesn't gather His Church until after... His "thousand years" reign, which your idea is NOT written.

That is not what I am saying. There are 2 gatherings for the 2 resurrections. God the Father comes for both, one on each side of the millennium. The trump of God in 1 Thes is when Jesus comes to end this present time. The last trump is the last voice of God, when he comes to destroy what he created in Gen 1:1.

I think I have already shown how the '"day of the Lord" can refer to events at different times.

I don't know who you are listening to, but they have definitely led you astray on those matters of Bible prophecy.

Everything comes straight from the Bible. People have overlooked the throne of God coming to earth for a long time. That's no small thing!

 

[6 Stories]

Jesus only comes one time. You turned it into 3 separate returns. Who is being harvested? 3 groups. The church. Israel. The nations who follow Christ. Jesus is on the earth with His angels gathering the final harvest per Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. Matthew 13 covers the Thunders. Matthew 25 covers the first 6 Trumpets.

???

Revelation 14:17-20 is the harvest of those who remain. There will be no third woe if Revelation 14 happens. The Millennium will start at that point, with chapter 20.

This is when the Millennium starts!

When John saw the events of Revelation 14, Revelation 11:15 already happened 7 days prior. Revelation 14 happened at the end of the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Those verses you put into your post just shows that the harvest is complete.

Revelation 14 and Revelation 11:15 describe the same period of time. Revelation 14 and Revelation 11 both end at the Millennium.

The final harvest happened during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

I can't find it.

Many see the Second Coming as an instant of time and "poof", all humanity is gone.

People saw Jesus go up and they will see the 2 witnesses go up. I think the 30 minutes of silence in Rev 8:1 is the time it will take to go up.
No poof for me.

Jesus is not returning as a baby in the womb so will not be on earth for 33 years. But Jesus is returning to finish the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The 3.5 years as Messiah was completed in the first century. The 3.5 years as Prince is what the book of Revelation is about. Humanity does not just go poof at the Second Coming, not even by the standards of Revelation 14. Revelation 14 is the wrap up of a week long celebration where all nations on earth were declared under the direct kingship and control of Jesus from Jerusalem. Revelation 14 is just declaring the harvest over and completely finished. Satan can be bound, and the Millennium can start.

I just can't follow what you are saying. In one instance you refer to the 70th week as years and in another it appears to be days. I also don't see any evidence that Jesus be Prince for 3.5 years before the Millennium.

Revelation 14 is the preferred ending instead of Revelation 19, which is an extension of 42 months given to Satan as the 8th kingdom after Jesus was just announced as the 7th Kingdom. If Revelation 14 happens, then Revelation 19 will not happen. If Revelation 19 happens, then Revelation 14 will not happen. There is only one final winepress of God's wrath. The one in Revelation 14, or the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19.

Both Rev 14 and 19 are God breathed. They will both happen, but they are the same event.

"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." "

All I was pointing out is the systematical removal of humanity 2 billion at a time. If we start out with 8 billion, 25% is 2 billion. That leaves 6 billion. 33% of 6 billion is still 2 billion. Staying consistent in the Thunders which have been sealed, we would see 50%, another 2 billion. The winepress is 100% and all who are left will physically die.

There is only 1 harvest at the end of the age.
Who will we be reigning over during the Millennium if "all who are left will physically die?"

Even the redeemed don't take this current physical body with them at the Second Coming. There is still the physical aspect of death that is left behind. That should be accounted for in the symbolism of the book of Revelation.

How do you interpret the following verse?
Is 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

The book of Revelation is not giving us the percentage of who is righteous and who ends up in the LOF. The book is telling us how many leave this body of death, and either enter eternal life or eternal damnation during each part of the final harvest. The first generation of the Millennial Kingdom of those living on the earth both of Israel and all nations have eternal life of the first resurrection. They will not face the GWT nor the second death. However they will rule over dozens of generations of people born during the Millennium who will choose to obey the iron rod rule of Jesus Christ for themselves.

I don't see where the Revelation tells us how many leave this body of death in the final harvest.

How are people born during the Millennium if everyone dies before the Millennium?

The Millennium is a time of rest and is Holy. It is not a time to "weed out" the unrighteous. The last 2 millennia has been the time to "weed out" the unrighteous, and it seems not many have been "weeded out". The vast majority of humans are still in rejection mode of the Gospel. The majority of the last 2 millenia are waiting in sheol for the GWT Judgment.

The last 2 millennia have been to make disciples. If the vast majority of humans are still in rejection mode of the Gospel, that is on us. 2 Chr 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

 

[6 Stories]

No, I didn't.
That idea is actually a false idea of Amillennialists who do not believe the written "thousand years" of Rev.20 is actual. So they believe all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's return, which of course that idea is not written in God's Word..

Sorry, I must have misunderstood.

 

[6 Stories]

Per Daniel 9:27, the coming false-Christ will end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination idol inside the temple for worship, just as Antiochus IV did as a blueprint for the final Antichrist. The Dan.9:27 verse says the placing of the idol will happen in the "middle" of that 7 years symbolic "one week".

So what do you get when you half a period of 7 years? You get two 1260 day periods.

The second 1260 day period begins once the Antichrist sets up the abomination idol in Jerusalem. And that 1260 day period is shown in Rev.11 to also be the 42 months period of false-Messiah's reign on earth.

The Daniel 11 events about the "vile person" is the next part, because that prophecy of what the "vile person" does is about the final Antichrist, showing he will come to power as king in Jerusalem via a small group of supporters, and he will do that using peace and flatteries. It then reveals the old covenant sacrifices having started up again, and the existence of a Jewish stone temple for that old covenant worship. And the Dan.11 Scripture says he will be against that holy covenant (old covenant worship), and will end the sacrifices and place that abomination idol of Dan.9:27.

Because Lord Jesus quoted the placing of that abomination idol for the END by the final Antichrist, that means today's Jews will build a 3rd stone temple in Jerusalem, and start up old covenant worship again (meaning Orthodox unbelieving Jews that still reject Jesus Christ). It is probable that the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah might arrive for the first 1260 day period to establish that building of the new temple.

Rev 13:1-5
1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." (Authority over this beast is not given to a nation, but is divided between 10 nations. That is why the crowns are now upon the 10 horns and not upon the 7th head - New Rome.)

2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
(Just like the statue in Dan 2, 4 separate world powers are shown as 1 beast.)

3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." (All of the past leaders have died since Babylon through the Roman Empire hav been long gone. Daniel's king of the north or Seleucia will come back into existence as the 8th head. Just as Israel came back into existence, Seleucia will come back.)

4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (At the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week, AC takes over the 10 nation new Roman Empire.)

5 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (The reign of AC is only 42 months and not 84, although he may have been coregent as 1 of the original 10 kings)

Do we have the same understanding?

 

[6 Stories]

If the time of God's "two witnesses" prophesying on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe is "great tribulation" timing (which it is), and Jesus' coming is on the next 7th Trumpet - final 3rd Woe, which it is, then how... can the Vials of God's wrath not have yet started?

I agree with your timing.

The 7th Trumpet begins the Vials of God's wrath. This is the 3rd woe. This is when God pours out his wrath on those who have been killing his people.

Compare Rev 11:19 with Rev 16:17-21 They are the same event!

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:17-21
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

There are 2 chronologies leading to the great tribulation in Rev 12.
Chronology 1. Rev 12:1-5 describes the coming of Jesus in the first century which is followed in verse 6 with 1260 days of great tribulation.
Chronology 2. Rev 12:7-13 describes the time of trumpets until verse 14, a time, times, and half a time; which is the 1260 days of great tribulation.

There is only one. Verses 1-5 are a CODE telling us THE PLAYERS, that's it. Those who understand the code understands that this deals with Satan, Israel and Jesus who is in heaven as our high priest.

Rev. 12:6-17 then show the 1260 days in which Israel are protected in the Petra/Bozrah area.

Let me give you the tine line. We were told there were three ages, the "things which you have seen" or God and Jesus' who are Eternal. There are the "things which are" (Church Age was the time John lived in saw when he wrote about it it was the things which are) and lastly after the Rapture, when the 70th week starts, we are in the "hereafter".

Rev. 1 is Jesus the God of eternity, the "Things which you have Seen"

Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age. The 7 Churches represent God's Divine Completion (7) of the Church Age. In In Rev. 2:10 the church in Smyrna were told they would have tribulation 10 days (complete church age).

Rev. 4, 5 and 6 is the Church in Heaven in the first half of the 70th week. We see the 24 elders have "all" of the gifts promised in Rev. 2 & 3 to those who "overcame". They sat at God's throne (Rev. 3:21) they had on "white robes" (Rev. 3:5) and they had on "crowns of gold" (Rev. 2:10) and of course Rev. 4:4 shows they have all these things in that one verse. In Rev. 4:1 we see the Rapture and everything from that point is spoken about as the "Hereafter" (after the 70th week starts or after the church age ends). In Rev. 5 we see the Saints who are REDEEMED, Angels do not need redeeming. Then in Rev. 6 we see Jesus amidst the Church in Heaven opening up the 7 Seals that bind the book God gave him, the book that brings God's judgments. That book had 7 Seals on it, not one seal, it can not be opened until the 7th seal is taken off. Anyone who understand Wax Seal Signets understands this. A king sent a letter with his own Seal and no one could open it and read it without him knowing it. Even if two seals fell off, it was STILL SEALED. So, these three chapters are before the Wrath of God falls at the middle of the 70th week (1260 event).

Meanwhile Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea 30 days (1290) before God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 at the 1260. The 144,000 represent the 5 million (1/3) of the Jews who repent (Zech. 13:8-9). God orders the angels to HOLD BACK the four winds (Judgment) until the 144.000 (5 million Jews) are sealed (Saved) and protected (Flee into Petra/Bozrah). This is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8.

The 70th week Greatest Ever Troubles now start, its called the DOTL or God's Wrath.

Rev. 8 is the first four Trumps (One Asteroid Impact shown in four phases). Rev. 8:13 shows us the last 3 Trumps sounding is the Three Woes to come. Rev. 9 then sees Apollyon and his demons released from hell (Rev. 18:2 meshes with this, Babylon is the dwelling place of Devils, the WHOLE WORLD = Babylon) but that happens as soon as the Asteroid hits, Trumps 1-4 are ONE EVENT shown unto us in four phases as in Bang, bang, bang, bang, not 4 events. So, the first Woe is very close to the 1260 but it lasts 5 months. The 2nd Woe is not Demons, its 200 Million Angels delivering God's PLAGUES vs. 20 says its God's Plagues, Satan can not cast out (kill) Satan, Jesus told us that. Then we must jump to Rev. 16 (15&16 are one chapter) which ends the Wrath of God with the 7Vials which emit from the 7th Trump, which is the 3rd Woe. Its al wrapped up via the 7th Vial which is Jesus showing up. All of the other Chapters are Parenthetical Citation Chapters which show OTHER EVENTS which happen at the exact same time as the 1260 days of God's Wrath shown in Rev. 8, 9 and 17 (Those three COMBINED cover the last 1260 days).

Parenthetical Citation Chapters which coincide with chapters 8, 9 and 16

Rev. 10 is simply John being told about the 7 Thunders (Trumps) that bring the kingdom back under God's authority. The little book was both sweet and bitter because it brings John into eternity with God but it also sees billions of human being killed and judged. It covers the 1260 days of Wrath (7 Trumps).

Rev. 11 starts 75 days before this Wrath falls at the 1260, that is why the Two-witnesses are the coming 1335 Blessing. They also die at the 2nd woe vs. the Beast who dies at the 7th Vial. So, Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses ministry, but it hints at victory by Jesus when he comes because as I stated, the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, but since that is the 3rd Wie we know the Two-witnesses are already dead by then. This covers 1335 days in essence because it tells us Jesus will gain victory, but they only have a 1260 day ministry as ordained by God. So, this actually starts 75 days before Rev. 8.

Rev. 12 is easy, Satan chases the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days so it starts at God's Wrath (Rev. 8) also.

Rev. 13 is easy, the Beast conquers Israel and thus is the Beast for 1260 days, this starts in Rev. 8 also.

Rev. 14 covers the Full 7 Years because it is "The Harvest chapter" we see the Wheat Israel harvested at the very end (The Wheat must remain with the TARES until the end) thus they are the 144,000 (code) and the Wicked Grapes are the TARES, they get placed into God's Wine-press (killed) and will be bound and judged a 1000 years later (burned later). Meanwhile in verse 14 we get a FLACHBACK to the pre 70th week rapture of the Church by Jesus himself, from upon a cloud. So, thus chapter covers all 7 years.

Rev. 17 is the Harlot (ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time) and she rode the back of the first 6 Beasts (Gov. & Religion were intertwined) but here the 7th Head and his kings will kill her off, there is no room for any religion in the Anti-Christs world, he is the "only god" and he will demand all worship, thus he will forbid or kill off Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jupiter/Zeus type worship as Rev. 17:16 shows us, this starts in Rev. 8 and covers 1260 days of Beast rule.

Rev. 18 is Babylon, NOTICE in vs. 2 that Devils now occupy Babylon (the WHOLE WORLD) and we know Satan is cast down at the 1260 and Apollyon and his demons are freed from the pit, so indeed Babylon is the dwelling place of devils. In vs. 4 God says "Come out if her my peoples (Israel) lest you partake in her sins and in her plagues" this is God calling Israel to flee Judea (Rev. 7). Then in verses 8 and 10 we see Babylon (World) is destroyed in ONE HOUR and in ONE DAY, well both mean 42 months or 1260 days. In Rev. 17:12 the kings are told they will rule ONE HOUR with the Beast (see how I do this, I use the bible to solve these riddles, not other men) and we all know the "Day of the Lord" lasts 42 months. So, this Judgment all starts with the Rev. 8 Asteroid.

Rev. 19 like Rev. 14 covers the full 7 years, we see the Church in Heaven BEFORE they even get their (our) White Robes. Then we Marry the Lamb and return to earth with him where we see the Beast and all of his minions are STILL ALIVE and gathered at Armageddon.

What happens is people do not grasp the true timelines, God himself scrambled this up on purpose. There is the true Chronological Order of Revelation. There are a lot of Parenthetical Citation chapters, until one understand this he will never understand the true timeline of the book of Revelation.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

If the 1st chronology can jump from Jesus' 1st coming to the great trib, surely the 2nd chronology shouldn't be limited to 7 years. Don't you agree that Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 describe the same period of time, the period of great tribulation?

Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER (70th week) and so is Rev. 12, verses 1-5 is merely a code, it not a part of the story, just telling us who the players are in a secretive way, WHY? Because if John had written that Israel would rule with Jesus the Romans would have seen that as treason and killed those church members, and destroyed the letters (book of Revelation). Rome had just sacked Israel. This is also why God had Joh write Babylon instead of THE WORLD because Rome saw themselves as THE WORLD, and that would have been treason, but when John writes about Babylon ( a Dead City) being judged they all laughed, no doubt. When they spoke of Jesus a dead man ruling, they laughed again. But to be safe, here God used The Woman and her male child (not man child, bad interpretation) for Israel and Jesus. The Gen. 37:9 passage shows us who The Women is. The Four Horses was not about things that happened to Israel long ago, as Zech. prophesied (which came to pass long ago) it was just a little code also. The River Euphrates will not dry up per se, that's a code also.

Rev 13 again describes the great tribulation as 42 months which is followed by Rev 14, the time after the great tribulation, which is the 75 days of God's wrath. Each of the 6 chronological sequences in Rev 6-19 follow this same pattern. It's undeniable once you see it.

This is why I gave you the ABOVE POST.

I agree with your TIMELINES hypothesis. Look at these 6 harmonious timelines!

As per the Charts, nothing from Rev. 4-19 starts until the 70th week starts. There are things which give us flashbacks, like Rev. 12:1-5 but only to INDENTIFY who the fleeing woman is (Israel) and who is chasing her (Satan/A.C. army) and who is protecting her (Jesus sitting at God's right hand in the heavens).

or
The feast of Passover starts the great tribulation. The book of Jonah, the sign of Jesus, is read on the Day of Atonement just before the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses. The feast of Tabernacles ends the great tribulation. Since Jews will be in their tabernacles without roofs, they will be able to witness the ascension of the 2 witnesses, ending the period of great tribulation.

No, Jesus died on the cross at 9:00 AM on Passover day GET IT? He fulfilled Passover, (first Spring Feast) he Fulfilled the Unleavened Bread Feast (Jesus had NO SIN he was Unleavened) an he fulfilled the Feast of First-fruits, he was the first to overcome death. So, Jesus fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts. He is now fulfilling the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/Harvest/Church Age Harvest of Souls, he is our High Priest in Heaven an we are his Harvester harvesting souls for the Kingdom. When Jesus blows that Trump, that will END the Harvest that is why Paul called it the Last Trump. You see, they never knew on what day nor hour the New Moon would come in, they were on Gid time or Lunar time. So, they sent two men up into the mountains to spy this out, as soon as the New Moon (pitch black) came in they sent word back, the Jewish leaders started the Trumps blowing, they blew these Trumps in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the 100th or LAST TRUMP, the Harvest Season was officially over. So, you see, Jesus has to fulfill every Feast in order. he fulfilled the first three Sprig Feasts in his first coming, he is now Harvesting souls. Then we know the LAST TRUMP will end the Church Age Harvest. Israel then has to repent (Atone) during the 70th week, and Zech. 13:8-9 shows they do that ONE VERSE before the DOTL hits (Zech. 14:1). That's why I see Rev. 7 as the Jews fleeing Judea and THEN the Wrath hots in Rev. 8. Thus the Feast of Atonement is fulfilled by Jesus who atones Israel via his blood. Finally, Jesus dwells with Israel in Jerusalem for 1000 years and the Feast of Tabernacles is thus fulfilled, to Tabernacle with God means to DWELL with God and Jesus is God.

Israel practiced these 7 Feasts and had no idea what they were pointing unto. They were called Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals) and they were all pointing unto Jesus their Messiah. Only Jesus can fulfill these 7 Feasts, he has already fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts, he is now Harvesting Souls via the Church Age Gentile Bride with some Jews mixed in, that why the Harvest was ALL ALONE on the calendar unto itself. Finally, he will end the Church Age Harvest with a TRUMP (see Rev. 4:1) and then Israel will Atone AND rule with Jesus for 1000 years. So. we don't have to guess brother, this is real deal stuff. I always say, its OK to not be in the know, but when we get in the know, we can't shove it to the side.

It seems you do not understand that Jesus who took on all sin and the 2 witnesses had their flesh transformed and raised into heaven, not just the Spirit.

Jesus did not need to be transformed, he NEVER SINNED. You miss that nugget. Smile.

Thanks Ron!

YW my friend. You try to think these thigs though. So, I am discussing, not dissing. God tells me I am in error every day when He feeds me new information, I love being wrong, because I then know I just got a fresh understanding from God.

 

[Davy]

I don't see crowns on the people in Rev 7. Doesn't that mean that Jesus has not come for them. To me, this is the continuation of those found in heaven in the 5th seal, who also wear white robes, but don't have crowns.

All of the Revelation 7 chapter is about the saints being 'sealed' with God's seal in prep for the "great tribulation". Recall about those sealed mentioned on the 5th trumpet, which is actually just prior to the actual time of tribulation of the 6th trumpet.

This is why Rev.7 at the start is showing the blowing of the wind being on hold until God's servants are sealed with His seal. The 144,000 sealed represent Israelites of the seed in Christ's Church sealed for the "great tribulation".

The "great multitude" represents the Gentiles that are sealed for the "great tribulation". Just because you don't read this point about being sealed specifically there with the "great multitude" does not mean they are not sealed too. The verses describing them having come out of great tribulation and are before the throne of God reveals they went through the tribulation and overcame, having been 'sealed' with God's seal.

Why then, one might ask, would Rev.7 separate the two groups of Christ's saints like that, one group of the believing seed of Israel compared with the believing Gentiles? It's because the same type separate descriptions are also given in the Old Testament prophets, and the Book of Revelation is written more like the Old Testament Books than the New Testament Books.

 

[Davy]

I agree with you that Jesus comes during the 2nd part of the 6th seal, the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Vial. However, I don't believe Jesus comes at the 7th seal in Rev 8:1 because Rev 8:5 mentioned above shows the return of the throne of God. From Rev 6, we know that Jesus follows the throne of God.

I don't see anywhere in Revelation 8 about the "return of the throne of God", and definitely is not what the subject of Rev.8:5 is about, so I think you might want to read that again.

I'll say it again, though I don't think you have understood yet. Jesus gave ONLY 7 Signs of the end leading up to His future return in His Olivet discourse. That aligns with the Seals of Revelation 6. Therefore... His return is shown on the 6th Seal (2nd part) which aligns with His return after the "great tribulation" per Matthew 24:29-31, which is the final Sign.

The 7th Seal involves a period of silence. The Psalms, which are actual 'songs', have periods of music silence called a 'rest' in music, but in Hebrew called a 'selah'. That is what I see the 7th Seal representing. It represents the end of Christ's final Sign He gave in His Olivet discourse, that of His future coming and gathering of His saints.

Then the 7 Signs start over again with the 7 Trumpets, with the 7th Trumpet again representing Christ's final Sign of His coming and gathering of His saints per His Olivet discourse.

Then likewise with the 7 Vials. And the final 7th Vial represents again Christ's coming and gathering of His saints per His Olivet discourse.

This means Jesus returns on the 777 of the Book of Revelation.

 

[Davy]

That is not what I am saying. There are 2 gatherings for the 2 resurrections. God the Father comes for both, one on each side of the millennium. The trump of God in 1 Thes is when Jesus comes to end this present time. The last trump is the last voice of God, when he comes to destroy what he created in Gen 1:1.

I strongly disagree, the "last trump" by Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11, and is when Jesus comes immediately after the 'great tribulation', thus ending this present world, and gathering His Church. The order as written is this:

1. "great tribulation"
2. "last trump" (same as 7th Trumpet) - Jesus' coming to end the tribulation, and end this world and gather His saints, which is "day of the Lord" timing.
3. Christ's "thousand years" reign begins.
4. Satan and the wicked that follow him that go to destroy the "camp of the saints" on earth, after the "thousand years", are destroyed.
5. then God's GWT Judgment, and opening of the books again.
6. those not found in Book of Life cast into the lake of fire, along with hell and death.
7. God brings His new heavens and a new earth, Satan and the wicked are gone.

 

[Davy]

Rev 13:1-5
1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." (Authority over this beast is not given to a nation, but is divided between 10 nations. That is why the crowns are now upon the 10 horns and not upon the 7th head - New Rome.)

It is error to fall into that trap of Preterism and Historicism which tries to assign the beast at the end to Rome and a pope.

The Revelation 12:3-4 verses in the previous Rev. chapter shows a beast system also, and it's one that Satan setup when he drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth in rebellion with him. Just when... did that happen? It happen prior to the time Adam. It happened in the old world which most are "willingly ignorant" of according to Apostle Peter, a world which God destroyed and thus ended Satan's original rebellion...

... with that in mind then, what 10 nations in that time of old, when Satan first rebelled, did that represent back then? Do you not see how silly men's Preterist doctrine of trying to assign the "ten horns" idea to 10 European nations under Rome and a pope sounds? Did a pope and Rome exist back at the time of the old world when Satan first rebelled against God, with the beast system of Rev.12:3-4?

My Speculation About the Rev.13:1 Beast:

This is just my speculation. I don't ask that others agree.

1. the beast system that Lucifer first rebelled with per the Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture had "ten horns", "seven heads", but only "seven crowns". Notice the number of 'horns' and 'crowns' do not match like the one in Rev.13. So how do we account for the powers on earth that Lucifer setup involving "ten horns" and "seven crowns"? And the fact that Lucifer did use an old beast kingdom on earth at his original rebellion is not speculation.

2. the beast system of Revelation 13:1 is to have "ten crowns" instead of seven. So this final one for the end of this world is different than the one Lucifer originally rebelled with.

3. according to Daniel 7:24, the other king that shall arise among the ten kings, will subdue 3 of the 10 kings ("ten horns"). The word for "subdue" (KJV) doesn't mean destroy, but more in the sense of reign over, or abase in authority. I think it is pointing to a 'ruling structure' on earth that Satan as that other king will setup. I believe the original 'ten kings' actually will be 7 kings over the 7 continents of the whole earth, and then a ruling structure of 3 kings over that 7, and then Satan on top of the ruling pyramid over it all.

 

[Davy]

Do we have the same understanding?

Obviously not.

Rome is not in the Bible prophecy about the end, Jerusalem is.

The future ruling structure for the end by the coming false-Messiah will be in Jerusalem, not Rome.

The Rev.13:1 first beast is a 'beast kingdom' structure over the whole earth, over all peoples and nations, setup by the "dragon", just as Rev.13:4-8 does reveal for 42 months.

Because of the 'iron' mentioned mixed with clay in the Daniel 2 prophecy, and the old Roman empire was represented by the beast statue 'legs of iron', some believe that for the end that "iron" mention again means a revived Roman empire. And they then assign that to the Roman Church and a pope, which actually does not represent the old 'pagan' Roman empire.
(Even though I am a Protestant Christian, and I do not agree with many things done in the Roman Catholic system, still I do not see it as a 'revived' PAGAN Roman empire like the one of old.)

What then, is the "iron" for, mixed with 'clay', as the ten toes?

The globalist movement today for a "one world government" is what that Rev.13:1 beast that comes up out of the sea will represent. It will be a beast 'kingdom' over all nations and peoples on earth. And we told that the "dragon" will rule over it (Rev.13:4-8 again).

And in Matthew 24:23-26 Lord Jesus showed a pseudo-Christ is coming to Jerusalem to rule over that beast kingdom. That means literally, the coming Antichrist will portray Lord Jesus Christ, even working great signs and wonders to prove it (for the deceived).

And in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul revealed that coming false one will actually sit in a future Jewish stone temple and play God, over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped. And again Paul shows that false one will work those signs and wonders that Jesus spoke of.

Then in Rev.13:11 forward, we are shown about that false one again, called the "another beast", and comes up out of the earth (i.e., put for the bottomless pit!). He will come 'like' The Lamb (Jesus), but speak as a dragon (Satan). And also is shown he will rain fire down to the earth in the sight of men, and do miracles, like the one Jesus and Paul warned about for the end.

So it don't take an anvil to fall on me to grasp that the coming Antichrist for the end is going to be Satan himself here on earth, working miracles in plain sight that will deceive the majority of the world in thinking he is God having come, and that means the Orthodox Jews believing he will be their Messiah of Bible Scripture, which is very specific to one born of the tribe of Judah, and the house of David, and thus points DIRECTLY TO JERUSALEM for the beast place of rule, and where the 'deadly wound' will be healed.

This also means the "deadly wound" represents what God did in that old world to end Lucifer's original rebellion against Him. Lucifer tried to set himself up in place of God; that was the first sin in the beginning. Just where... might Lucifer have tried to do that? Well, didn't God say that Jerusalem is where He has chosen to dwell forever? Yeah... and that is where Satan is coming to try and do it once more, at the end of this present world. Thus the healing of the "deadly wound" per Rev.13:3 will be about Satan's coming to play Messiah in JERUSALEM, thus healing that old "deadly wound".

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 14 and Revelation 11:15 describe the same period of time. Revelation 14 and Revelation 11 both end at the Millennium.

The Millennium starts when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

The 7th Trumpet either sounds for a week of days, or 42 months and a week of days.

 

[Davy]

The Millennium starts when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

The 7th Trumpet either sounds for a week of days, or 42 months and a week of days.

Now that's adding to The Bible...

Here is what God's Word actually reveals about the time of that 7th Trumpet:

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

 

[Timtofly]

Now that's adding to The Bible...

Here is what God's Word actually reveals about the time of that 7th Trumpet:

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

The Covenant has not been confirmed per Daniel 9:27 yet. The future has not happened yet.

Only prophecy given. Only God knows what will happen or could happen. You don't know the future, so stop trying to make it sound like you know exactly what will happen.

The mystery cannot be finished until it is actually finished. You cannot have the 7th Trumpet stopping before the mystery is finished.

Jesus is the 7th Kingdom. Jesus is not the 9th Kingdom, because no 9th Kingdom is mentioned in the book of Revelation.

 

[Davy]

The Covenant has not been confirmed per Daniel 9:27 yet. The future has not happened yet.

I don't think you know what the Daniel 9:27 verse means. You would have to understand the Daniel 11 prophecy about the "vile person" first. Nevertheless, that above statement has nothing... to do with the 7th Trumpet timing which is when Jesus returns, as written. And it's apparent you don't know much about that 7th Trumpet either.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't think you know what the Daniel 9:27 verse means. You would have to understand the Daniel 11 prophecy about the "vile person" first. Nevertheless, that above statement has nothing... to do with the 7th Trumpet timing which is when Jesus returns, as written. And it's apparent you don't know much about that 7th Trumpet either.

It is all written there in Revelation 10.

 

[6 Stories]

Paul's idea in 1 Cor.15 that "this mortal" must "put on immortality" isn't about flesh. It's about the mortal SOUL.

Why do you think that it is not also about the flesh?

The souls of the unsaved after Christ's return will still be in a 'liable to die' condition at the "second death". They too will put on the "spiritual body" on the day of Jesus' return, because the "spiritual body" is... the body type of that future world, not flesh.

Isn't your statement at odds with Rev 20:6?

Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

I think the spiritual body is eternal. The "second death" is separation from God in an eternal body that can feel torment from the lake of fire which would require a physical presence. The physical body would just not deteriorate. A prerequisite for the second death is a second resurrection. That is the reason only those of the first resurrection belong to Christ and are not subject to the second death (not liable to die).

Doesn't the Acts 3:21 'restitution' mean that the world is just changing ownership? The parts of the world that haven't put on immortality will still be God's physical creation, but Satan will be gone.
Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

There won't be any literal raising of flesh bodies at the resurrection, for that idea is just an expression.

Didn't this literally happen to Jesus? I don't know why you oppose this idea.

And the fact that there will also be a "resurrection of damnation" should be a strong clue about the unsaved being in spirit bodies in that future time also, yet still subject to the "second death".

This is why Apostle Paul showed to have eternal Life through Jesus Christ one must go through TWO conditions, not just one, corruption (flesh) must put on incorruption (spirit body), AND "this mortal" (soul) must "put on immortality" (deathlessness in Christ Jesus). Only those of the "first resurrection" and those "caught up" to Christ will go through 'both' changes at His coming.

1 Cor 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
1 Cor 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Verse 50 has 2 things, flesh and blood + corruption. This doesn't mean they are 2 different things. It just adds emphasis. The same holds true for verse 53.

 

[6 Stories]

Again, the idea of 'mortal' will only be about an unsaved 'soul', not a flesh body. God created us with 3 parts, not 2...

1. flesh and bones - the body of corruption (we put this off at flesh death, never need it again.)
2. spirit body - Paul's "spiritual body"; we all already have it living in our flesh body. Permanently connected with out soul.
3. soul = our real person. It is mortal and liable to perish unless made alive through Faith on Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

From my perspective, our souls will not fully surrender to the will of Jesus while our bodies live. When we die, the Un surrendered portion of our soul will be cut off (divided asunder) from our spirit. I agree that our spirit and God's Spirit already live within our flesh body and that this portion of us has already been made eternal. This is the reason Jesus said we will never die.

In the heavenly, no one has a flesh body. It is not possible for flesh to go there. Even when God's prophets were shown visions of the heavenly, that was via their 'spirit' inside their flesh body, and not via their flesh body. I find many of my Christian brethren that don't yet understand this, and are in a similar ignorance about the difference between flesh and spirit like Nicodemus was.

Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Nobody could enter heaven in any form until the date of Heb 9:12. This is when Jesus became our kinsman redeemer. Jesus' sinless flesh and blood went to heaven. There must be a physical component of heaven. Jesus was spirit. Then Jesus became flesh. Then Jesus' flesh in heaven paved the way for our incorruptible flesh to enter heaven. In this flesh is the Holy Spirit, which gives us life instead of blood. The resurrection is the blending of an incorruptible flesh with an incorruptible spirit. Our soul will be like that of Jesus which only seeks to do the will of the Father and not our own will.

Nicodemus lived at a time of first things first.
Mankind was first physical.
Jesus was first spirit.
Redemption came to the physical through the spirit. Neither Jesus nor mankind kept their original state of being.

I agree with your statement about heavenly visions and with what you wrote below.

After Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect over the unsaved nations, then Satan will be released from his pit prison and go tempt those unsaved to come up against the "camp of the saints" on earth. They will be destroyed by God's fire from Heaven, and Satan cast into the "lake of fire"; and then the Books will be opened to see if any more names were written in the Book of Life. That means some names will be found written, and will thus become joined with Christ and His elect, and this is the inferred 2nd resurrection unto Life in Christ. Those not written will then be cast into the "lake of fire", along with the abode of hell and death. Only after that will the new heavens and a new earth time come.

 

[6 Stories]

There is only one. Verses 1-5 are a CODE telling us THE PLAYERS, that's it. Those who understand the code understands that this deals with Satan, Israel and Jesus who is in heaven as our high priest.

Rev. 12:6-17 then show the 1260 days in which Israel are protected in the Petra/Bozrah area.

I had to delete most of your post to explain Rev 12.

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (This was an cosmological event or sign for the nation of Israel.)

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. (Jesus came from the nation of Israel.)

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. (This was another cosmological event or sign that Satan would rule over the nation of Israel through 7 different governments. Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Ptolemy, Seleucia, Rome, new Rome.)

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. (Satan sent his angels to destroy Jesus at his birth. Fulfilled by Rome in Matt 2:16.)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (Jesus came from the nation of Israel. Jesus will rule all nations, but he was caught up to heaven before this happened.)

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (After Jesus was caught up to heaven, Israel will have to flee from the powers of Satan for 3.5 years, the time of the great tribulation.)

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (This heavenly war coincided with earthly war, namely WWII.)

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (Satan and his angels lost the war in heaven, also losing their standing in heaven. This heavenly defeat coincided with the defeat of Hitler and the Axis powers, who lost their standing in the world.)

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Satan and his angels were cast from heaven into earth. This heavenly action was physically shown in the Chernobyl explosion and the radioactive cloud that followed the explosion.)

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Verses 10 and 11 are a heavenly song about the defeat of Satan. There is no corresponding verse in Rev 8.)

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (There will be woe on earth because Satan has been cast down. Corresponds with the woe of Rev 8:13.)

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (Since the Chernobyl incident, Satan has been increasing his attacks against Israel.)

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Same as Rev 12:6, this is the time of the great tribulation.)

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. (This is a flood of armies as shown in the 6th trumpet - 200 million cavalry.)

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (Is 63:1-2 "1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?" Jesus intervenes at the start of the great trib. That's the reason that his garments are already stained when he comes in Rev 19:13.)

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Having failed to destroy those of Israel who flee, Satan will next try to destroy Christians.)

You have to ignore all of the overlap in the Revelation if you stick with your current theory. That's why I abandoned it.