7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[6 Stories]

Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER (70th week) and so is Rev. 12, verses 1-5 is merely a code, it not a part of the story, just telling us who the players are in a secretive way, WHY? Because if John had written that Israel would rule with Jesus the Romans would have seen that as treason and killed those church members, and destroyed the letters (book of Revelation). Rome had just sacked Israel. This is also why God had Joh write Babylon instead of THE WORLD because Rome saw themselves as THE WORLD, and that would have been treason, but when John writes about Babylon ( a Dead City) being judged they all laughed, no doubt. When they spoke of Jesus a dead man ruling, they laughed again. But to be safe, here God used The Woman and her male child (not man child, bad interpretation) for Israel and Jesus. The Gen. 37:9 passage shows us who The Women is. The Four Horses was not about things that happened to Israel long ago, as Zech. prophesied (which came to pass long ago) it was just a little code also. The River Euphrates will not dry up per se, that's a code also.


This is why I gave you the ABOVE POST.


As per the Charts, nothing from Rev. 4-19 starts until the 70th week starts. There are things which give us flashbacks, like Rev. 12:1-5 but only to INDENTIFY who the fleeing woman is (Israel) and who is chasing her (Satan/A.C. army) and who is protecting her (Jesus sitting at God's right hand in the heavens).


No, Jesus died on the cross at 9:00 AM on Passover day GET IT? He fulfilled Passover, (first Spring Feast) he Fulfilled the Unleavened Bread Feast (Jesus had NO SIN he was Unleavened) an he fulfilled the Feast of First-fruits, he was the first to overcome death. So, Jesus fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts. He is now fulfilling the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/Harvest/Church Age Harvest of Souls, he is our High Priest in Heaven an we are his Harvester harvesting souls for the Kingdom. When Jesus blows that Trump, that will END the Harvest that is why Paul called it the Last Trump. You see, they never knew on what day nor hour the New Moon would come in, they were on Gid time or Lunar time. So, they sent two men up into the mountains to spy this out, as soon as the New Moon (pitch black) came in they sent word back, the Jewish leaders started the Trumps blowing, they blew these Trumps in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the 100th or LAST TRUMP, the Harvest Season was officially over. So, you see, Jesus has to fulfill every Feast in order. he fulfilled the first three Sprig Feasts in his first coming, he is now Harvesting souls. Then we know the LAST TRUMP will end the Church Age Harvest. Israel then has to repent (Atone) during the 70th week, and Zech. 13:8-9 shows they do that ONE VERSE before the DOTL hits (Zech. 14:1). That's why I see Rev. 7 as the Jews fleeing Judea and THEN the Wrath hots in Rev. 8. Thus the Feast of Atonement is fulfilled by Jesus who atones Israel via his blood. Finally, Jesus dwells with Israel in Jerusalem for 1000 years and the Feast of Tabernacles is thus fulfilled, to Tabernacle with God means to DWELL with God and Jesus is God.

Israel practiced these 7 Feasts and had no idea what they were pointing unto. They were called Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals) and they were all pointing unto Jesus their Messiah. Only Jesus can fulfill these 7 Feasts, he has already fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts, he is now Harvesting Souls via the Church Age Gentile Bride with some Jews mixed in, that why the Harvest was ALL ALONE on the calendar unto itself. Finally, he will end the Church Age Harvest with a TRUMP (see Rev. 4:1) and then Israel will Atone AND rule with Jesus for 1000 years. So. we don't have to guess brother, this is real deal stuff. I always say, its OK to not be in the know, but when we get in the know, we can't shove it to the side.


Jesus did not need to be transformed, he NEVER SINNED. You miss that nugget. Smile.


YW my friend. You try to think these thigs though. So, I am discussing, not dissing. God tells me I am in error every day when He feeds me new information, I love being wrong, because I then know I just got a fresh understanding from God.

Although Jesus never sinned, he did take on all of our sins and was therefore forsaken by God while he was on the cross.

Comparing my chart to your theory is not compelling. For me to change my opinion, I will need you to pick any overlapping parts of my chart and show me from the Bible that the timing is in error.

 

[6 Stories]

All of the Revelation 7 chapter is about the saints being 'sealed' with God's seal in prep for the "great tribulation". Recall about those sealed mentioned on the 5th trumpet, which is actually just prior to the actual time of tribulation of the 6th trumpet.

Do you agree that being sealed with God's seal is acceptance of the Holy Spirit?
I agree that the 5th trumpet will take place before the great tribulation.

This is why Rev.7 at the start is showing the blowing of the wind being on hold until God's servants are sealed with His seal. The 144,000 sealed represent Israelites of the seed in Christ's Church sealed for the "great tribulation".

I agree to this, but think there is more to it. Compare Dan 7:2-3 with Rev 7:1-3. When the 4 winds blow, a world empire emerges.

Dan 7:2-3
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The "great multitude" represents the Gentiles that are sealed for the "great tribulation". Just because you don't read this point about being sealed specifically there with the "great multitude" does not mean they are not sealed too. The verses describing them having come out of great tribulation and are before the throne of God reveals they went through the tribulation and overcame, having been 'sealed' with God's seal.

I agree that the great multitude was sealed and did go through the great tribulation.

Why then, one might ask, would Rev.7 separate the two groups of Christ's saints like that, one group of the believing seed of Israel compared with the believing Gentiles? It's because the same type separate descriptions are also given in the Old Testament prophets, and the Book of Revelation is written more like the Old Testament Books than the New Testament Books.

I agree with this statement in general, but I also think more specifically, the 144,000 are the 2 witnesses. 144,000 members of 2 separate churches or groups in Israel.

 

[6 Stories]

I don't see anywhere in Revelation 8 about the "return of the throne of God", and definitely is not what the subject of Rev.8:5 is about, so I think you might want to read that again.

I'll say it again, though I don't think you have understood yet. Jesus gave ONLY 7 Signs of the end leading up to His future return in His Olivet discourse. That aligns with the Seals of Revelation 6. Therefore... His return is shown on the 6th Seal (2nd part) which aligns with His return after the "great tribulation" per Matthew 24:29-31, which is the final Sign.

The 7th Seal involves a period of silence. The Psalms, which are actual 'songs', have periods of music silence called a 'rest' in music, but in Hebrew called a 'selah'. That is what I see the 7th Seal representing. It represents the end of Christ's final Sign He gave in His Olivet discourse, that of His future coming and gathering of His saints.

Then the 7 Signs start over again with the 7 Trumpets, with the 7th Trumpet again representing Christ's final Sign of His coming and gathering of His saints per His Olivet discourse.

Then likewise with the 7 Vials. And the final 7th Vial represents again Christ's coming and gathering of His saints per His Olivet discourse.

This means Jesus returns on the 777 of the Book of Revelation.

Rev 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."
Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

The selah is the ascension of the 2 witnesses into heaven, the sign of Jesus.

 

[6 Stories]

I strongly disagree, the "last trump" by Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11, and is when Jesus comes immediately after the 'great tribulation', thus ending this present world, and gathering His Church. The order as written is this:

1. "great tribulation"
2. "last trump" (same as 7th Trumpet) - Jesus' coming to end the tribulation, and end this world and gather His saints, which is "day of the Lord" timing.
3. Christ's "thousand years" reign begins.
4. Satan and the wicked that follow him that go to destroy the "camp of the saints" on earth, after the "thousand years", are destroyed.
5. then God's GWT Judgment, and opening of the books again.
6. those not found in Book of Life cast into the lake of fire, along with hell and death.
7. God brings His new heavens and a new earth, Satan and the wicked are gone.

The ascension of the 2 witnesses ends the great tribulation.
Rev 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
This is a preview of God's call (trumpet voice) for everyone.

What happens to those who belong to Jesus around #4? Will God call them up into heaven as he does at the beginning of the millennium?

The trump of God the Father:
Rev 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
This is the Father. Jesus voice is as the sound of many waters. Rev 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

The 7th trumpet is the voice of an angel:
Rev 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The voice of God the Father is not the voice of the 7th angel in spite of the fact that both voices sound like trumpets.

 

[6 Stories]

It is error to fall into that trap of Preterism and Historicism which tries to assign the beast at the end to Rome and a pope.

The Revelation 12:3-4 verses in the previous Rev. chapter shows a beast system also, and it's one that Satan setup when he drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth in rebellion with him. Just when... did that happen? It happen prior to the time Adam. It happened in the old world which most are "willingly ignorant" of according to Apostle Peter, a world which God destroyed and thus ended Satan's original rebellion...

... with that in mind then, what 10 nations in that time of old, when Satan first rebelled, did that represent back then? Do you not see how silly men's Preterist doctrine of trying to assign the "ten horns" idea to 10 European nations under Rome and a pope sounds? Did a pope and Rome exist back at the time of the old world when Satan first rebelled against God, with the beast system of Rev.12:3-4?

Rev 12:3-4
Please see post 260 for my explanation of these verses and all of Rev 12.

My Speculation About the Rev.13:1 Beast:

This is just my speculation. I don't ask that others agree.

1. the beast system that Lucifer first rebelled with per the Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture had "ten horns", "seven heads", but only "seven crowns". Notice the number of 'horns' and 'crowns' do not match like the one in Rev.13. So how do we account for the powers on earth that Lucifer setup involving "ten horns" and "seven crowns"? And the fact that Lucifer did use an old beast kingdom on earth at his original rebellion is not speculation.

2. the beast system of Revelation 13:1 is to have "ten crowns" instead of seven. So this final one for the end of this world is different than the one Lucifer originally rebelled with.

3. according to Daniel 7:24, the other king that shall arise among the ten kings, will subdue 3 of the 10 kings ("ten horns"). The word for "subdue" (KJV) doesn't mean destroy, but more in the sense of reign over, or abase in authority. I think it is pointing to a 'ruling structure' on earth that Satan as that other king will setup. I believe the original 'ten kings' actually will be 7 kings over the 7 continents of the whole earth, and then a ruling structure of 3 kings over that 7, and then Satan on top of the ruling pyramid over it all.

6 kings of the past: 1 Babylon, 2 Media-Persia, 3 Greece, 4 Ptolemy, 5 Seleucia, 6 Rome
7th king is for the future 7 new Rome

When the crowns are upon the heads, the heads have dominion, the horns do not have dominion.
When the crowns are upon the horns, dominion has shifted to them.
Seleucia will be 1 of the 10 kings of the new Roman Empire and will become the 8th king that rules over the new Roman Empire.
The 10 kings will hate Rome and destroy it - Replacement of 1 of the 10 kings. Rev 17:16
The 10 kings will move like a flood through Israel and Egypt. Replacement of the other 2 kings. Dan 11:41-42

 

[Davy]

Why do you think that it is not also about the flesh?

Because in 1 Corinthians 15:53 Paul used 4 different Greek words for 4 different conditions. Do your homework, Paul is pointing to TWO different 'changes' in that verse, not just one.

Let me put it this way, did you not know there are TWO different TYPES of the future 'resurrection'? Jesus showed that simply in the John 5:28-29 Scripture. He said both, the "resurrection of life" and... the "resurrection of damnation" will occur on that day of His coming. What then, is the difference... between those two TYPES of resurrection?

 

[Davy]

Isn't your statement at odds with Rev 20:6?

Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

No, what I said is definitely not... "at odds" with Rev.20:6, but only confirms the existence of TWO different TYPES of the future resurrection. You suggesting this is at odds with Scripture means you're not really familiar with what Jesus said, nor that you actually understand what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the future resurrection...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

I think the spiritual body is eternal. The "second death" is separation from God in an eternal body that can feel torment from the lake of fire which would require a physical presence. The physical body would just not deteriorate. A prerequisite for the second death is a second resurrection. That is the reason only those of the first resurrection belong to Christ and are not subject to the second death (not liable to die).

The "spiritual body" is indeed eternal, UNLESS... God assigns it to the "lake of fire". The thing you are not understanding is it is just a 'heavenly' TYPE body, and that's all. Men's traditions have interpreted the "spiritual body" to mean automatic Salvation through Christ for so long that they can't even fathom how Satan and his angels could also have that "image of the heavenly" too. Whoops! I let out a key to a mystery, didn't I?

Yep! Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:48-49 referred to the "spiritual body" as simply the "image of the heavenly". And that means the outward likeness or appearance of heavenly beings, for as Paul also said, "... and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly." (1 Cor.15:48)

So are those of the "resurrection of damnation" gonna' have that "image of the heavenly", or not? If not, then how is it that Jesus said they will be a 'resurrection' too?

 

[Davy]

Do you agree that being sealed with God's seal is acceptance of the Holy Spirit?
I agree that the 5th trumpet will take place before the great tribulation.

Yes, but not all. It has to do with accepting the whole Godhead, especially Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior Who died on the cross.

I agree to this, but think there is more to it. Compare Dan 7:2-3 with Rev 7:1-3. When the 4 winds blow, a world empire emerges.

There's also this, which to me is more relative to Revelation 7:1-3...

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

I don't interpret that being about a rapture prior to the great tribulation. That is about the last day of this present world when that "great sound of a trumpet" will sound with Jesus' future coming to gather His faithful Church. And that particular example is what Paul was teaching in the 1 Thess.4:13-16 Scripture about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven. The "caught up" version of that about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth is written in Mark 13:27, and links to 1 Thess.4:17.

I agree that the great multitude was sealed and did go through the great tribulation.

I agree with this statement in general, but I also think more specifically, the 144,000 are the 2 witnesses. 144,000 members of 2 separate churches or groups in Israel.

I don't see the 144,000 representing that, but just like the Scripture says, 12,000 out of the tribes of Israel mentioned there in Rev.7 (not all the tribes of Israel are mentioned there, by the way; Dan is omitted, likewise Joseph is put for Ephraim).

 

[Davy]

Rev 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."
Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

The selah is the ascension of the 2 witnesses into heaven, the sign of Jesus.

You mean this...

Rev 11:12-14
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
KJV

Rev 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

I don't see a period silence (selah) associated with the above; I was speaking of the following...

Rev 8:1-6
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
KJV

Per the above, the 6th Trumpet has not sounded yet, which the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is when God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to witness. The period of "silence in heaven" is between the giving of the Seals and the Trumpets. God's "two witnesses" ascend at the very end of the 6th Trumpet period.

 

[Davy]

The ascension of the 2 witnesses ends the great tribulation.
Rev 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
This is a preview of God's call (trumpet voice) for everyone.

What happens to those who belong to Jesus around #4? Will God call them up into heaven as he does at the beginning of the millennium?

The trump of God the Father:
Rev 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
This is the Father. Jesus voice is as the sound of many waters. Rev 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

The 7th trumpet is the voice of an angel:
Rev 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The voice of God the Father is not the voice of the 7th angel in spite of the fact that both voices sound like trumpets.

I think you are confused, maybe by a Pre-trib rapture theory?

Revelation 11:13-15 Scripture shows clearly Jesus' future coming and return with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. Revelation 16:15-17 clearly reveals Jesus' coming on the 7th Vial also. And Revelation 6 on the latter part of the 6th Seal shows His coming then also. So it's not that difficult for me to grasp that the 7th Seal is merely a 'selah' "silence" period given for the purpose of understanding, and not some figure that influences when the Revelation events happen.

 

[Davy]

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (This was an cosmological event or sign for the nation of Israel.)

That is actually related to Genesis 37, those symbols first used to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, and Joseph's mother and father, per his dreams he recalled to them.

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. (Jesus came from the nation of Israel.)

But that "child" is not just pointing to Lord Jesus, but to the Seed of the Woman (Genesis 3:15). These first 5 verses are actually a short summary of Genesis events. The first child which Satan went after was Abel.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. (This was another cosmological event or sign that Satan would rule over the nation of Israel through 7 different governments. Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Ptolemy, Seleucia, Rome, new Rome.)

No, afraid not. That beast with ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, is linked there with the 'time' when Satan drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him in rebellion. Sorry, you cannot try and change that Scripture just to suit a doctrine of man instead...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

I agree with E.W. Bullinger's note on when the above happened...

Revelation 12:4
4 And his, &c. Refers to Satan's first rebellion and to those who followed him.
(from E. W. Bullinger's Companion Bible: Notes and Appendices. Biblesoft Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Satan then stood before Eve who was ready to deliver her child Abel, and through Cain, Satan devoured Abel (i.e., influencing Cain to murder his own brother).

No need to go any further to grasp that beast system in Rev.12 was back at the time of Satan's original rebellion. You might want to study the Ezekiel 28 and 31 Chapters about Satan when he was originally exalted, and then rebelled against God in that old world.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you think that it is not also about the flesh?

Isn't your statement at odds with Rev 20:6?

Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

I think the spiritual body is eternal. The "second death" is separation from God in an eternal body that can feel torment from the lake of fire which would require a physical presence. The physical body would just not deteriorate. A prerequisite for the second death is a second resurrection. That is the reason only those of the first resurrection belong to Christ and are not subject to the second death (not liable to die).

Doesn't the Acts 3:21 'restitution' mean that the world is just changing ownership? The parts of the world that haven't put on immortality will still be God's physical creation, but Satan will be gone.
Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Didn't this literally happen to Jesus? I don't know why you oppose this idea.

1 Cor 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
1 Cor 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Verse 50 has 2 things, flesh and blood + corruption. This doesn't mean they are 2 different things. It just adds emphasis. The same holds true for verse 53.

Why is it that people think Adam was created without a physical body, but a spiritual body?

The body was always physical, that is the whole point. Adam had a permanent incorruptible physical body. Then Adam died the instant he disobeyed, and was given a temporal, corruptible physical body. Adam had a spirit, but lost the spirit, and was spiritually dead. The only thing that remained the same was Adam's soul, who he is.

It is the dead corruptible temporal physical body that cannot enter Paradise. A resurrection is into a permanent incorruptible eternal life physical body. That body does physically experience Paradise. The thief on the Cross was given that permanent incorruptible physical body and entered Paradise that day, he physically died.

At the Second Coming that thief will come with Jesus from Paradise to meet us, who are on the earth, rising into the air, in our new permanent incorruptible physical body.

A soul that is called dead in Christ has already physically left the earth, that is why they are considered physically dead, but they are far from actually being dead, nor being the dead who stand at the GWT Judgment.

The dead standing at the GWT are not in Christ. They could be if they so choose, unless they request that their name be removed the Lamb's book of life, and still reject God after looking directly into His face, and declare they do not need His redemption.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I had to delete most of your post to explain Rev 12.

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (This was an cosmological event or sign for the nation of Israel.)

No it isn't, this was a CODE that Gen. 37:9 explains. Israel is THE WOMAN, its not a hard code to crack, anyone that thinks this was a Heavenly Sign in the Heaven's just does not understand prophetic utterings. Hey look, lets look to the Signs of Virgo the Horoscope. Makes no sense, God has no part with evil things of Satan.

Although Jesus never sinned, he did take on all of our sins and was therefore forsaken by God while he was on the cross.

Comparing my chart to your theory is not compelling. For me to change my opinion, I will need you to pick any overlapping parts of my chart and show me from the Bible that the timing is in error.

Continue in your errors then I guess.

I destroy you thesis on the timelines.

Since you dodged it all that meant you couldn't overcome the points.

 

[6 Stories]

Because in 1 Corinthians 15:53 Paul used 4 different Greek words for 4 different conditions. Do your homework, Paul is pointing to TWO different 'changes' in that verse, not just one.

Let me put it this way, did you not know there are TWO different TYPES of the future 'resurrection'? Jesus showed that simply in the John 5:28-29 Scripture. He said both, the "resurrection of life" and... the "resurrection of damnation" will occur on that day of His coming. What then, is the difference... between those two TYPES of resurrection?

1 Cor 15:53 " For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
What do you believe is the difference between corruptible and mortal?
What do you believe is the difference between incorruption and immortality?

In John 5:28-29, the resurrection of life refers to dead physical bodies coming out of the ground and living with Jesus forever. This event occurs on both sides of Jesus' 1000 year reign.
The resurrection of damnation refers to dead bodies coming out of the ground and being separated from Jesus forever in the lake of fire. This event only occurs after Jesus' 1000 year reign.

 

[6 Stories]

No, what I said is definitely not... "at odds" with Rev.20:6, but only confirms the existence of TWO different TYPES of the future resurrection. You suggesting this is at odds with Scripture means you're not really familiar with what Jesus said, nor that you actually understand what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the future resurrection...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV



The "spiritual body" is indeed eternal, UNLESS... God assigns it to the "lake of fire".

Why don't you believe that the 'spiritual body' that abides in the lake of fire is eternal?

The thing you are not understanding is it is just a 'heavenly' TYPE body, and that's all. Men's traditions have interpreted the "spiritual body" to mean automatic Salvation through Christ for so long that they can't even fathom how Satan and his angels could also have that "image of the heavenly" too. Whoops! I let out a key to a mystery, didn't I?

Yep! Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:48-49 referred to the "spiritual body" as simply the "image of the heavenly". And that means the outward likeness or appearance of heavenly beings, for as Paul also said, "... and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly." (1 Cor.15:48)

I don't believe God the Father has a physical body.
1 Tim 6:16 " Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Jesus is the image, that is the visible manifestation of the invisible God.
Col 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

I believe the spiritual body is a visible body, whether it is in heaven or on earth. The spiritual body does not necessarily have to be visible to the physical body. The difference between the spiritual body and the physical body is: the spiritual body lives forever while the physical body is subject to death.

So are those of the "resurrection of damnation" gonna' have that "image of the heavenly", or not? If not, then how is it that Jesus said they will be a 'resurrection' too?

Yes, those of the resurrection of damnation are gonna have that image of the heavenly. However, they will not mingle with the heavenly or with those of the new earth because they are forever confined to the lake of fire.

 

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Yes, but not all. It has to do with accepting the whole Godhead, especially Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior Who died on the cross.

We are in agreement.

There's also this, which to me is more relative to Revelation 7:1-3...

I don't see any connection between Rev 7:1-3 and what you wrote below.

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

I don't interpret that being about a rapture prior to the great tribulation. That is about the last day of this present world when that "great sound of a trumpet" will sound with Jesus' future coming to gather His faithful Church. And that particular example is what Paul was teaching in the 1 Thess.4:13-16 Scripture about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven. The "caught up" version of that about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth is written in Mark 13:27, and links to 1 Thess.4:17.

I agree that Matt 24:31 is another version of the passages you sited.

I don't see the 144,000 representing that, but just like the Scripture says, 12,000 out of the tribes of Israel mentioned there in Rev.7 (not all the tribes of Israel are mentioned there, by the way; Dan is omitted, likewise Joseph is put for Ephraim).

The 2 witnesses and the 144,000 are both in heaven before Matt 24:31.
Rev 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
Rev 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
I can believe in a single firstfruits of the resurrection/rapture, but not 2.

 

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You mean this...

Rev 11:12-14
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
KJV

Rev 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

I don't see a period silence (selah) associated with the above; I was speaking of the following...

I believe the silence occurs in Rev 11:12 above. While the 2 witnesses rise into heaven, about 30 minutes, no songs are being sung in heaven until the third song below is sung at the arrival of the 2 witnesses/144,000 into heaven.
The first song is Rev 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Through faith in the God of creation, mankind gained eternal life.
The second song is Rev 5:9 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Something new happened requiring a new song. Mankind gained eternal life through the blood of Jesus.
The third song is Rev 14:3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." Something new happened requiring a new song. Mankind gained eternal life not only with the spiritual, but also with the physical.

Rev 8:1-6
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
KJV

Per the above, the 6th Trumpet has not sounded yet, which the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is when God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to witness. The period of "silence in heaven" is between the giving of the Seals and the Trumpets. God's "two witnesses" ascend at the very end of the 6th Trumpet period.

The silence you perceive between Rev 8:5 and 8:6 exists because Rev 8:5 ends this story that began at Rev 7:1.

In terms of the timing, the 6th trumpet was blown before the 6th seal was opened. The 6th seal describes the time immediately following the great tribulation until Jesus comes, while the 6th trumpet describes the armies of antichrist that will set up the abomination of desolation, beginning the time of great tribulation. The 6th trumpet continues until the end of the great tribulation. The earthquake of Rev 11:13, when the great tribulation ends is the earthquake of Rev 6:12, which also ends the great tribulation.

 

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I think you are confused, maybe by a Pre-trib rapture theory?

Revelation 11:13-15 Scripture shows clearly Jesus' future coming and return with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. Revelation 16:15-17 clearly reveals Jesus' coming on the 7th Vial also. And Revelation 6 on the latter part of the 6th Seal shows His coming then also. So it's not that difficult for me to grasp that the 7th Seal is merely a 'selah' "silence" period given for the purpose of understanding, and not some figure that influences when the Revelation events happen.

Not a pre-trib rapture theory, just an additional story.

We both see a story that ends with Jesus' future coming with the 7th trumpet. We both see another story that ends with Jesus' future coming with the 7th vial. We both see another story that ends with Jesus' future coming at the latter part of the 6th seal.

I see another story that runs from Rev 7:1 through Rev 8:5 and you see these verses differently. I am glad that someone else sees the 3 stories we agree upon!

 

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That is actually related to Genesis 37, those symbols first used to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, and Joseph's mother and father, per his dreams he recalled to them.

I agree that this is where this symbol for the nation of Israel is found.

But that "child" is not just pointing to Lord Jesus, but to the Seed of the Woman (Genesis 3:15). These first 5 verses are actually a short summary of Genesis events. The first child which Satan went after was Abel.

Rev 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

How does 'as soon as it was born' fit into the story of Cain and Abel?

No, afraid not. That beast with ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, is linked there with the 'time' when Satan drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him in rebellion. Sorry, you cannot try and change that Scripture just to suit a doctrine of man instead...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

I agree with E.W. Bullinger's note on when the above happened...

Revelation 12:4
4 And his, &c. Refers to Satan's first rebellion and to those who followed him.
(from E. W. Bullinger's Companion Bible: Notes and Appendices. Biblesoft Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Satan then stood before Eve who was ready to deliver her child Abel, and through Cain, Satan devoured Abel (i.e., influencing Cain to murder his own brother).

Rev 12:4 is the spiritual warfare behind the actions of Herod in Matt 2:16. "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men."

Rome was crowned or in power at that time, the 6th power over the people and land of Jerusalem. That was the last of the crowned powers in the past. In the future, there will be another power (the 7th crown) to reign over the land and people of Jerusalem. It will again be Rome, who will be in charge of 10 nations. Under antichrist, power will shift from Rome to the 10 nations (10 crowns).

These 7 crowns are part of the the 1 statue in Dan 2 and the 1 beast in Rev 12 and 13. Notice how the crowns shift from the heads to the horns when antichrist comes, when the 10 horns receive authority.

No need to go any further to grasp that beast system in Rev.12 was back at the time of Satan's original rebellion. You might want to study the Ezekiel 28 and 31 Chapters about Satan when he was originally exalted, and then rebelled against God in that old world.

In my opinion, this symbolism is only useful when compared with the statue of Daniel and the beast of Revelation.

 

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Why is it that people think Adam was created without a physical body, but a spiritual body?

I don't know, I believe Adam was created with a physical body.

The body was always physical, that is the whole point. Adam had a permanent incorruptible physical body. Then Adam died the instant he disobeyed, and was given a temporal, corruptible physical body. Adam had a spirit, but lost the spirit, and was spiritually dead. The only thing that remained the same was Adam's soul, who he is.

If Adam had a permanent body, his body would never have died as a result of his sin. This is the difference between mankind and angels. Angels have permanent bodies, so when they sinned, they couldn't die and be resurrected into a new body.

Adam's spirit never died because our spirits live forever. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God.

It is the dead corruptible temporal physical body that cannot enter Paradise. A resurrection is into a permanent incorruptible eternal life physical body. That body does physically experience Paradise. The thief on the Cross was given that permanent incorruptible physical body and entered Paradise that day, he physically died.

I agree, but there is more. Our dead corruptible physical bodies will also be changed when Jesus returns.

At the Second Coming that thief will come with Jesus from Paradise to meet us, who are on the earth, rising into the air, in our new permanent incorruptible physical body.

I agree, but that thief's grave will also be emptied at that time. Whatever body comes from heaven will be joined with a resurrected body that comes out of the earth.

A soul that is called dead in Christ has already physically left the earth, that is why they are considered physically dead, but they are far from actually being dead, nor being the dead who stand at the GWT Judgment.

I don't know that a soul physically leaves earth because a soul is not physical to begin with, but I agree with the gist of what you said.

The dead standing at the GWT are not in Christ. They could be if they so choose, unless they request that their name be removed the Lamb's book of life, and still reject God after looking directly into His face, and declare they do not need His redemption.

I think there will be some who will die during the millennium who will be in Christ. Once they are dead, the choice has been made whether to belong to Christ or not.