7 World Empires and Bible Prophecy

[keras]

You're correct that the NHNE doesn't come till the end of the Mil. What I said regarding the seals is that they will cover up till the NHNE. According to your interpretation the destruction of Gog and Magog just before the NHNE isn't mentioned in the sixth seal. It is in mine. That's where we disagree.

Regarding the events leading up to the Return, that's one way to interpret the prophecies you mentioned. I don't see it that way myself. In regards to Matt. 24:27-28 I see it as a reference to the verses that follow in Matt 24 about the rapture. Rev 19:13 to me will happen at the culmination of Armageddon just before the dawn of the Millennium.

Yes, the first five Seals will remain in effect until the Return. But the 6th and 7th are one off events.

There is another attack by a type of Gog/Magog at the end of the Millennium. This doesn't preclude the original attack upon new Israel, a few years after the Sixth seal. Before the GT, before the Return.

The lightning flash does not refer to His Return, that is described in verses 30-31, Zech. 14:3, Rev 19:11. It relates to His judgement/punishment of the nations, when He will not be seen. Psalm 18:11, Hab 3:4 & 12, Psalm 11:4-6 The Lord is in His throne in heaven....He rains fiery coals down onto the wicked....

I do not see any removal of any living person to heaven. [Only the two witnesses] Jesus is coming down to reign, to be with Him is our goal and only those who keep their faith during the forthcoming time of trial and testing will be worthy.

 

[toknowthetruth]

Yes, the first five Seals will remain in effect until the Return. But the 6th and 7th are one off events.

There is another attack by a type of Gog/Magog at the end of the Millennium. This doesn't preclude the original attack upon new Israel, a few years after the Sixth seal. Before the GT, before the Return.

The lightning flash does not refer to His Return, that is described in verses 30-31, Zech. 14:3, Rev 19:11. It relates to His judgement/punishment of the nations, when He will not be seen. Psalm 18:11, Hab 3:4 & 12, Psalm 11:4-6 The Lord is in His throne in heaven....He rains fiery coals down onto the wicked....

I do not see any removal of any living person to heaven. [Only the two witnesses] Jesus is coming down to reign, to be with Him is our goal and only those who keep their faith during the forthcoming time of trial and testing will be worthy.

Seems to me it's pretty clear in 1Thes 4:16-17 that we're going up to meet the Lord in the air up in the clouds. Sounds more like heading to Heaven than staying on earth where we already are. How do you interpret that? Also what about the marriage supper? Where does that take place? Would be kind a hard to have a marriage supper on earth when the bowls of God's wrath are being poured out, wouldn't it? And if Jesus is on earth why does John have a vision of Him in Heaven coming down to earth to defeat the AC and his forces at the battle of Armageddon? And who are the armies in Heaven that follow Him on white horses? Seems logical to assume that the raptured saints would be among those riding on white horses clothed in fine linen clean and white, since the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. How can they be on earth and in Heaven at the same time? I don't know. Seems highly unlikely to me what you're suggesting.

 

[keras]

1 Thess 4:15-17 describes the Return.....the Lord Himself will descend from heaven....it seems those who have maintained their faith during the forthcoming period of testing, will meet Him and it is likely when the Marriage supper takes place.
The Bible isn't clear on events at that time, but Armageddon looks to be a very short and sweet battle. Rev 19:21

It is not logical and totally unscriptural to assume that the saints Return with Jesus. Several scriptures say it is the angelic army who accompany Him.
The saints are not in heaven, they are raised to life after the Return, as Rev 20 says.

What IS 'highly unlikely', is anything that is not supported by scripture happening , only God's plans will come to fruition.

 

[toknowthetruth]

1 Thess 4:15-17 describes the Return.....the Lord Himself will descend from heaven....it seems those who have maintained their faith during the forthcoming period of testing, will meet Him and it is likely when the Marriage supper takes place.
The Bible isn't clear on events at that time, but Armageddon looks to be a very short and sweet battle. Rev 19:21

It is not logical and totally unscriptural to assume that the saints Return with Jesus. Several scriptures say it is the angelic army who accompany Him.
The saints are not in heaven, they are raised to life after the Return, as Rev 20 says.

What IS 'highly unlikely', is anything that is not supported by scripture happening , only God's plans will come to fruition.

Well, that's one way to interpret 1 Thess 4:15-17 I suppose. To me seems more like the rapture since the trump of God is more than likely the same trumpet that's associated with the other verses connected with the rapture, (Rev 11:15, 1 Cor 15:52, Matt 24:31) which is sounded at the end of the 3.5 years of the trib (Rev 11:15) before the return.

I agree that Armageddon is not very clearly spelled out. Seems to me like two opposing forces are gathered together, the AC and his forces and those who oppose him. I'm guessing he's going to have the superior forces and will initially be winning. But when the Lord comes with His Heavenly army that will be the end of the AC.

I do think that it is the saints, and not angelic beings that are mentioned in Rev 19 that fight with the Lord. It very clearly states in Rev that his armies are clothed in fine linen, white and clean, to me a direct correlation to verse 8 in the same chapter. It's likely that there are also angelic beings involved, but I would interpret this particular verse to be talking about the saints..

The way I see it the saints are in Heaven. They were taken up to Heaven at the rapture before the return. As far as I can tell Rev 20 is about the Millennium and the saints ruling over those who are left after the wrath and Armageddon.

Yes I agree, if something isn't supported by scripture it isn't a viable interpretation. However, there are several different interpretations of end-time prophecy that are supported by scripture. Guess it's up to the individual to decide which one makes the most sense to them.

 

[keras]

Sadly we won't be able to come to much of a consensus on the end time events, while you stick to the rapture theory.

The only scriptures that actually say about anyone going to heaven, are Rev. 11:12, where the 2 witnesses are taken to heaven after being resurrected and John 3:17 that says no one goes to heaven except the One who came from heaven.
All the other so called rapture verses don't actually mention heaven at all. This subject has been discussed at length elsewhere on this forum.
What needs to be understood is the blessings of God to His people that take place on earth, in all of the Holy Land, where they will at last, live as God always intended His people to be. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jer 33:6-14, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Zech 10:8-10

People often interpret scripture according to their preconceived notions. Also using poor and outdated translations, biased by doctrines and Church teachings. Its isn't what makes the most sense, that only leads to error, it's what the prophets actually write, things rarely heard from the pulpit. It takes real commitment to get to the truth of the Prophetic Word. In my case, 5 years of intensive study and writing 4 books on Bible prophecy.

 

[toknowthetruth]

Sadly we won't be able to come to much of a consensus on the end time events, while you stick to the rapture theory.

The only scriptures that actually say about anyone going to heaven, are Rev. 11:12, where the 2 witnesses are taken to heaven after being resurrected and John 3:17 that says no one goes to heaven except the One who came from heaven.
All the other so called rapture verses don't actually mention heaven at all. This subject has been discussed at length elsewhere on this forum.
What needs to be understood is the blessings of God to His people that take place on earth, in all of the Holy Land, where they will at last, live as God always intended His people to be. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jer 33:6-14, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Zech 10:8-10

People often interpret scripture according to their preconceived notions. Also using poor and outdated translations, biased by doctrines and Church teachings. Its isn't what makes the most sense, that only leads to error, it's what the prophets actually write, things rarely heard from the pulpit. It takes real commitment to get to the truth of the Prophetic Word. In my case, 5 years of intensive study and writing 4 books on Bible prophecy.

With the rapture I just don't find any other interpretation that's convincing. For me it seems to be implied that being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" is talking about leaving the earth and going to Heaven. In Rev 11:12 it says, "and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud". Matt 24:30 talks about the Lord "coming in the clouds of heaven". Acts 1:9-11 also has an association of clouds and heaven. The fact that you find clouds mentioned in these related passages about Jesus coming back for his followers indicates to me that heaven is what is being talked about in 1Thes 4:17.

I see the Millennium and the NHNE as the period when the earth will be restored to the way God intended it to be. I don't see it happening before then, at least from the way I read the scriptures.

I agree that we should be mindful about setting aside our biases if we are to approach a matter objectively. I would personally be cautious, though, about believing something that doesn't make sense. The way I see it there are so many factors that come into play with scripture and interpretation of scripture, especially prophecy, that it's not difficult to come up with all sorts of interpretations, which is indeed the case. Seems like choosing what makes the most sense of all those different factors is part of what's necessary to come to the best conclusion.

Oh, and GBY for your commitment to do such an intensive study of these things. That's truly commendable.

 

[DogLady19]

D.L. says: There is no return to Old Testament sacrificial systems mentioned in Daniel or elsewhere after the life of Christ.
Ezekiel 40-48 are chapters that clearly tell of a new Temple and of all the Lord's righteous people living in all of the Holy Land. Rev. 7:9 The Shekinah Glory of God WILL come into this Temple. Eze. 43:2 After Jesus does Return, then the sacrificial purifications will cease.
logostelos.info

Ezekiel 40-48: Show me where this temple is for a time after the life of Christ.

Name one place in the entire world that could actually sustain a temple and city of such magnitude... This new temple and city measure as wide (if not wider) than the earth itself! Add the measurements up and you'll see what I mean...

The current temple isn't even in the same location as the temple in Ezek 45... And it certainly couldn't occupy thousands of square miles in area... God's Shekinah glory will shine throughout the earth, not just in the temple.

Jesus' sacrifice was ONCE and for ALL... no daily sacrifices necessary, unless you believe that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient. I certainly don't. Jesus is the Anointed One. Jesus abolished the daily sacrificial system.

Hebrews 10:10-12 and Hebrews 7:22-28

Daily sacrifices acceptable to God are now impossible for another reason: When the temple was destroyed, so were the genealogical records of the Levites (specifically the sons of Zadok). Without a proper lineage, there is no way to have a priest who is capable of sanctifying those sacrifices.

 

[keras]

I'm sorry, Toknowthetruth, but the idea of a rapture to heaven of any living person is a false teaching. And the dead, unless resurrected with the saints to rule with Jesus in the Millennium, Rev 20:4-5, wait until the GWT judgement. All this happens on earth.
What I see throughout the Bible is God's plan to have a people who will be a light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, and who display His Holiness, Ezekiel 39:25-29 They will be a people from every nation, and language, as we see in Rev. 7:9. To be there, Jerusalem: in the Holy Land, dressed in white and waving palm branches, is our ultimate goal.
God has angels to serve Him in heaven, we are earth creatures and even after the renewal of all things, Rev 21:1-7, God Himself will be on earth and the definition of heaven is the place where God is, therefore heaven will be the earth.

D.L19, The Temple and Holy Land, as described in Ezekiel 40-48, have not been fulfilled as yet. The measurements given are not the same as the ones in Rev. 21:15, that is after the Millennium and there is no Temple then, Rev 21:22
Proofs of a new Temple in Jerusalem, before the Return of Jesus, are:
1/ 2 Thess 2:4, where the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple.
2/ Ezekiel 43:2 The Shekinah Glory enters the Temple. This wasn't present in the second Temple.
3/ The ruler or leader of the people presents sacrifice's. Ezekiel 46:1-18. This conforms to Jer. 30:21 & Hosea 1:11, where the people of new Israel, [Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5] elect their own leader.

Jesus didn't, in fact, abolish the sacrificial system, It continued until 70 AD. They were still killing animals, as the Roman troops fought their way in. In the new Temple, offerings will be made for expiation and purification. Ezekiel 45:17

There is plenty of prophecy about how the Lord will clear the Holy Land and His righteous people will be gathered and will live in all the area promised to Abraham. Ezekiel 34:11-31 Expect this to happen quite soon; I am 73, but I have the Lord's promise of going back to Shechem, [Nablus] where I received a vision in 2010.
logostelos.info

 

[toknowthetruth]

I'm sorry, Toknowthetruth, but the idea of a rapture to heaven of any living person is a false teaching. And the dead, unless resurrected with the saints to rule with Jesus in the Millennium, Rev 20:4-5, wait until the GWT judgement. All this happens on earth.
What I see throughout the Bible is God's plan to have a people who will be a light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, and who display His Holiness, Ezekiel 39:25-29 They will be a people from every nation, and language, as we see in Rev. 7:9. To be there, Jerusalem: in the Holy Land, dressed in white and waving palm branches, is our ultimate goal.
God has angels to serve Him in heaven, we are earth creatures and even after the renewal of all things, Rev 21:1-7, God Himself will be on earth and the definition of heaven is the place where God is, therefore heaven will be the earth.

D.L19, The Temple and Holy Land, as described in Ezekiel 40-48, have not been fulfilled as yet. The measurements given are not the same as the ones in Rev. 21:15, that is after the Millennium and there is no Temple then, Rev 21:22
Proofs of a new Temple in Jerusalem, before the Return of Jesus, are:
1/ 2 Thess 2:4, where the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple.
2/ Ezekiel 43:2 The Shekinah Glory enters the Temple. This wasn't present in the second Temple.
3/ The ruler or leader of the people presents sacrifice's. Ezekiel 46:1-18. This conforms to Jer. 30:21 & Hosea 1:11, where the people of new Israel, [Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5] elect their own leader.

Jesus didn't, in fact, abolish the sacrificial system, It continued until 70 AD. They were still killing animals, as the Roman troops fought their way in. In the new Temple, offerings will be made for expiation and purification. Ezekiel 45:17

There is plenty of prophecy about how the Lord will clear the Holy Land and His righteous people will be gathered and will live in all the area promised to Abraham. Ezekiel 34:11-31 Expect this to happen quite soon; I am 73, but I have the Lord's promise of going back to Shechem, [Nablus] where I received a vision in 2010.
logostelos.info

Rapture to Heaven? Seems pretty evident to me from scripture. But if that's how you see it you're entitled to your opinion.

Concerning the Millennium, I have no argument with you about the dead not being raised till the GWTJ. I never claimed differently. What I did say is that the saints will rule and reign over those that are still alive after Armageddon. I think from Rev 20:8 it can be deduced that there will still be nations of people left alive after Armageddon. Otherwise who are we ruling and reigning over?

Regarding angels and earth creatures, I can't quite figure out how you come to that conclusion. Seems pretty clear to me from scripture that there are saints, as well as angels in heaven. Yes, Heaven will come down to earth after the Millennium, at least God's house/city, New Jerusalem. So in that sense heaven will be on the earth, but it won't be the earth. But for now it's in another realm, or at least somewhere else.

I think the scriptures you quote about God's plan can apply to either the Millennium or the NHNE.

 

[toknowthetruth]

Ezekiel 40-48: Show me where this temple is for a time after the life of Christ.

Name one place in the entire world that could actually sustain a temple and city of such magnitude... This new temple and city measure as wide (if not wider) than the earth itself! Add the measurements up and you'll see what I mean...

Nice to have you back DL. I'm curious to know exactly which verses in Ez have the measurements you are referring to. If you could let me know I'd be grateful.

 

[Questor]

I agree up to the sixth.
The seventh was, how I see it is still Rome with the Iron, but a converted Holy Roman Empire with Ten Kingdoms, this already history.
So as Rev. 13 puts it a deadly wound came. Rev. 17 is the healed beast , the eighth beast which is of the seven which is still Roman Iron.
This is the seventh in Daniel 2 the Iron and clay which is still the fourth beast in Daniel 7.
The Iron Kingdom lasted longer the any of the other metalic kingdoms.

+1

 

[toknowthetruth]

+1

So I assume you are a presentist? Have had a few discussions about that. Seems to be about the Catholic Popes being the little horn. Is that correct?

 

[Questor]

Actually, I don't know what a presentist is...please do explain the term.

I think the 11 countries that will come against Israel in the End of Days will be the Caliphate that ISIS is pushing,,,we are looking at the Assyria/Persian Empire back together again, not Rome as we know it 1985 years after Yeshua's death and resurrection.

Looking at Isaiah, everyone surrounding Israel presently is some 13-14 countries. Eleven of them are mentioned by their local names at 760 BC, and currently are filled by some odd religion with a Mahdi expected, along with a prophet called Isa (Jesus), Son of Miryam. They also kill people primarily by beheading them.

Basically, we are looking at Egypt, Ethiopia, the PLA in Gaza (Moab and Edom), Lebanon (Tyre), Syria (Asshur), Iran (Media), Iraq (Persia), Saudi Arabia (Elam), Yemen (Elam...and possibly part of ancient Ethiopia), Oman (also in Elam), Kuwait (also in Elam), Qatr (also in Elam), and the UAE (also in Elam). Jordan seems to stay out of trouble with Israel, and the little horn can easily come from Kuwait, Qatr, and the UAE...all rather small, but rich Islamic countries.

I have no doubt that the Catholic Church will attempt to remain Catholic, as in Universal, and comply with any Anti-Christ, but I don't follow the stories about Rome and Europe being the center of the Anti-Christ's attention when the Scriptures say it's all about Israel. Still, Europe is remarkably full of Muslims, and will create a lot of trouble there. America has less Muslims, but I imagine whomever is President at the time will forget about religious tolerance to some extent, but then, I'm a cynic.

We in the West have a nasty tendency to forget that because of the Replacement Theology teaching that Christians are Israel. We are but grafted in...the Jews are still Israel. The Muslims don't like Christians, but they really hate Jews, and all those countries surround physical Israel.

 

[toknowthetruth]

Deleted

 

[toknowthetruth]

Actually, I don't know what a presentist is...please do explain the term.

I think the 11 countries that will come against Israel in the End of Days will be the Caliphate that ISIS is pushing,,,we are looking at the Assyria/Persian Empire back together again, not Rome as we know it 1985 years after Yeshua's death and resurrection.

Looking at Isaiah, everyone surrounding Israel presently is some 13-14 countries. Eleven of them are mentioned by their local names at 760 BC, and currently are filled by some odd religion with a Mahdi expected, along with a prophet called Isa (Jesus), Son of Miryam. They also kill people primarily by beheading them.

Basically, we are looking at Egypt, Ethiopia, the PLA in Gaza (Moab and Edom), Lebanon (Tyre), Syria (Asshur), Iran (Media), Iraq (Persia), Saudi Arabia (Elam), Yemen (Elam...and possibly part of ancient Ethiopia), Oman (also in Elam), Kuwait (also in Elam), Qatr (also in Elam), and the UAE (also in Elam). Jordan seems to stay out of trouble with Israel, and the little horn can easily come from Kuwait, Qatr, and the UAE...all rather small, but rich Islamic countries.

I have no doubt that the Catholic Church will attempt to remain Catholic, as in Universal, and comply with any Anti-Christ, but I don't follow the stories about Rome and Europe being the center of the Anti-Christ's attention when the Scriptures say it's all about Israel. Still, Europe is remarkably full of Muslims, and will create a lot of trouble there. America has less Muslims, but I imagine whomever is President at the time will forget about religious tolerance to some extent, but then, I'm a cynic.

We in the West have a nasty tendency to forget that because of the Replacement Theology teaching that Christians are Israel. We are but grafted in...the Jews are still Israel. The Muslims don't like Christians, but they really hate Jews, and all those countries surround physical Israel.

I assumed you were holding to the Presentist, Historisist, or whatever they call it view since the post you +1'd seemed to be along those lines.

I'm familiar with the interpretation you put forth. It seems to be one of the prevalent views at the moment. I believe it has it's roots in Christian Zionism. Doesn't make sense to me, but evidently it makes sense to you.

Seems to me quite a stretch to believe that the Muslims will follow someone who claims to be God, but that's just my opinion.

 

[heretoeternity]

The true Christian people are caught in between many antichrists...the Muslims, The Talmud following zionists, and the counterfeit christianity which was spawned by Rome, and her protestant daughters..thats why in Matthew 24 Jesus said beware no one deceive you..for many shall come in my name.....in Apostle John's time he refers to many antichrists...Rev 17 is clear on the end time false counterfeit religion...

 

[toknowthetruth]

The true Christian people are caught in between many antichrists...the Muslims, The Talmud following zionists, and the counterfeit christianity which was spawned by Rome, and her protestant daughters..thats why in Matthew 24 Jesus said beware no one deceive you..for many shall come in my name.....in Apostle John's time he refers to many antichrists...Rev 17 is clear on the end time false counterfeit religion...

I'm a little unclear on what your point is here. You can generalize that many religions, nations and people are antichrist. Don't know what that proves? Remember Jesus said "He that is not for me is against me", as well as "He that is not against me is for me." Seems it's just a matter of what the context is of what your talking about.

 

[Straightshot]

Response to the OP


Good work .... continue to study the Lord's prophetic Word and He will bless you for doing so [Revelation 1:3]

I would suggest for you to consider some adjustment in your current view

Listed below is Satan's nesting in the northern region of the Middle East and the 7 kingdoms of his beast who does Satan's bidding for him .... 5 kingdoms have existed there in the past just before the first century and there are 2 yet to come at the end of this present age .... one after the other [the beast once was ruling, then not ruling, and is coming to rule again at the time of the end [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-3; 17:8-18]

The "land of Magog"
The Assyrian Empire
The neo-Babylonian Empire
The Persian Empire
The Seleucid Empire [the largest and northern divide of Alexander's Asian holdings]

The smaller kingdom of the little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8;9-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]
The little horn's expanded kingdom with 10 other Middle Eastern kings[Daniel 40-43; Revelation 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

The Roman and subsequent rulers of the region [there have been several over the last 2000 years are not in the visions of the Bible prophets .... there are reasons for this period of silence

As we look at the Middle East today we can see the little horn's smaller kingdom developing, but not yet appearing ... and neither has the little horn come forth and appeared in the open [the region of Syria/Iraq .... the place of the Seleucid Empire of the past

The populations of the Middle East still live in the same region today and they are the Adherents of Islam

Watch the Middle East where all of the Bible prophets are focused, past, present, and future

If you have any questions or comments I will respond

 

[toknowthetruth]

Response to the OP


Good work .... continue to study the Lord's prophetic Word and He will bless you for doing so [Revelation 1:3]

I would suggest for you to consider some adjustment in your current view

Listed below is Satan's nesting in the northern region of the Middle East and the 7 kingdoms of his beast who does Satan's bidding for him .... 5 kingdoms have existed there in the past just before the first century and there are 2 yet to come at the end of this present age .... one after the other [the beast once was ruling, then not ruling, and is coming to rule again at the time of the end [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-3; 17:8-18]

The "land of Magog"
The Assyrian Empire
The neo-Babylonian Empire
The Persian Empire
The Seleucid Empire [the largest and northern divide of Alexander's Asian holdings]

The smaller kingdom of the little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8;9-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]
The little horn's expanded kingdom with 10 other Middle Eastern kings[Daniel 40-43; Revelation 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

The Roman and subsequent rulers of the region [there have been several over the last 2000 years are not in the visions of the Bible prophets .... there are reasons for this period of silence

As we look at the Middle East today we can see the little horn's smaller kingdom developing, but not yet appearing ... and neither has the little horn come forth and appeared in the open [the region of Syria/Iraq .... the place of the Seleucid Empire of the past

The populations of the Middle East still live in the same region today and they are the Adherents of Islam

Watch the Middle East where all of the Bible prophets are focused, past, present, and future

If you have any questions or comments I will respond

I assume you're correlating the 5 + 2 to come with the seven heads of the beast of Revelation. So you're saying there are two middle eastern kingdoms that are yet to come? If that's the case, how do you see end-time prophecies unfolding, and what are you looking for to happen first that will signal the beginning of the end of time?

 

[Straightshot]

Briefly ...............

Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's will come out of the abyss to form the 6th smaller kingdom [the kingdom that "is" at the beginning of the coming tribulation period .... he will then expanded it into the 7th .... a divided kingdom in the Middle East with 10 other kings

The human little horn and king of the north will first appear in the core region of the ancient Assyrian Empire [Syria/Iraq today] and form the 6th .... he will appear in the open just at the beginning of the tribulation period

He will move to expand His 6th into the 7th with 10 other kings in the Middle East .... and he will invade and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount at the middle of the tribulation and rule for 1260 days [42 months]

The current setting in the Middle East is the prelude to the rising of the little horn who will confederate the divided factions of the adherents of Islam