99.9999% of all professing Christian's aren't saved

[Grailhunter]

Procedures in discipline

1. Arrange a private meeting with the offender.
2. If a private meeting fails, meet with them and several witnesses.
3. Admonish and warn them.
4. As a final resort, bring the matter up to the whole church.
5. Remove their membership, and avoid them.
6. Be ready to forgive them when repentance occurs.

The Catholics called it excommunication.
If a person recants or repents they can be brought back into the church.
It is all about the desire to control. Now if you know the history of the Catholics that headed down a dark path and the desire to take control of salvation.
Judgment Day does not occur in a church with the members of a church.
We had a fine church with a lot of potential, but they got into people's personal lives and kicked people out of church and then they would shun them and not do business with them. Before long they were known as the cult in town.

One of the reasons I asked what kind of sins "does the average Christian commit" Most of these are going to be mundane. Is the church going to address thievery, child molestation, or rape? These are legalities. And is there a difference with some one that attends or if they are a member?

What is the pastoral team going to council people on...smoking, drinking, gambling....maybe, usually it is more personal. Actual witchcraft is a no brainer. A lot of times they are accusing people of sins that are not bibleical.
In motion Christians have developed a strong interest in what I call crotch patrols.

Still as long as the church makes it clear that they have rules against un-wed couples or smoking or drinking, or gambling, the people can choose whether or not to come to that church. I do not think that it is a sin for a church to come up with unbiblical rules....they just need to warn people that they have this running around in their head. But still the truth is important. If they say these sins are biblical, then they are not telling the truth and that is a sin, by the church.

Certainly a lot of pastors would prefer that everyone in his or her congregation would be fine upstanding Christians, but as Christ said, I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
It is a different way of applying....the Way.

In one of the Sunday school class that I attended, a lady was talking about her sister who was a lesbian. She said she did not know how to help her. She felt is was wrong to invite her to this church. So I ask, saying, why not invite her to church and have the faith that Christ can deal with her. Why not give her and Christ a chance to work it out?

Issues with alcoholism, drug use, and homosexuality are problems that they have to be workout. It is not like a switch that can be demanded by some one else to stop. Who was it that Christ was eating and drinking with?
We are the light....the example for others to see. Influence by example and association, can't do that by kicking people out. How many people here do not go to church because they were done wrong by a church?

The cast out can be a cop out. Kind of Catholic, kind of Jewish....remove the evil from among you? Not all of us were brought up in Christian homes and family....some come to Christ broken. Ministries....what does that mean? Ministering spirits...what is that? Are we going to accept those broken lives and show them the Way? Yes we should council and yes if they are trying we should work with them. And then again there is that line in the sand.

Now as I said in another post, sometimes we have to judge and sometimes we have to take action...what these people are actually doing in the church. What did Christ do with the money changers? I am not doing the soap box thing or the being hypocritical. I was told that a homosexual was in the church's bathroom approaching the kids....I drug him out by his hair....through the church....and threw him in the ditch out front. I did not condemn him....did not cuss him....but he got the message.

 

[quietthinker]

Procedures in discipline

1. Arrange a private meeting with the offender.
2. If a private meeting fails, meet with them and several witnesses.
3. Admonish and warn them.
4. As a final resort, bring the matter up to the whole church.
5. Remove their membership, and avoid them.
6. Be ready to forgive them when repentance occurs.

God forgives before we ask him, even, dare I say it, even before we are born. It is not God who is tightfisted, it is not God who requires hoops to be jumped through; it is us as people who shun, who push away, who feel superior, whose hearts revert to stone quicker than a flash, who hold up our procedures as sacrosanct ....it is us who have not seen the generosity and kindness of God even the religious.
Consider the story of the Prodigal Son or should it be named the story of the Generous Father and remember, it is Jesus who crafted it. Reflect on its details and the attitude of the older brother. Whose camp are we in?

 

[TEXBOW]

Even Calvinists might make it to heaven! LOL But as a whole I believe most Christians will make it to heaven.
Your average Christian....is not going to be into the extreme sins that would get them into trouble and cannot be forgiven.

Probably the largest Christian threat that would prevent people from getting to heaven is the OSAS beliefs. Sin all you want and go to heaven....that is not going to workout well for them. The other problem would be lifestyle sins. A life of sin....vows exchanged between same sex marriages.....vows to sin for a lifetime. etc.

Procedures in discipline

1. Arrange a private meeting with the offender.
2. If a private meeting fails, meet with them and several witnesses.
3. Admonish and warn them.
4. As a final resort, bring the matter up to the whole church.
5. Remove their membership, and avoid them.
6. Be ready to forgive them when repentance occurs.

I think we should not come up with our own plan but look to the scriptures for these matters regardless of how difficult they may seem. The above procedures are given to us in the scriptures. Those who have issues with it can take it up with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 18:15-19
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. The church once did this but now the money is more important.

Matthew 18:15-17 clearly and specifically sets forth the practical steps for confronting and correcting a wayward believer.

1. First, one believer (usually the offended person) will meet individually with the other believer to point out the offense. If the brother or sister listens and confesses, the matter is resolved.
2. Second, if the one-on-one meeting is unsuccessful, the offended person will attempt to meet with the believer again, taking with him one or two other members of the church. This allows the confrontation of sin and resulting correction to be confirmed by two or three witnesses.
3. Third, if the person still refuses to listen and change his behavior, the matter is to be taken before the entire congregation. The whole church body will publicly confront the believer and encourage him to repent.
4. Lastly, if all attempts to discipline the believer fail to bring change and repentance, the person will be removed from the fellowship of the church.

Churches do not have the conviction to do the above today it seems.

Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that this final step in church discipline is a way of handing the unrepentant brother "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."

Sounds harsh and much like tough love but Church discipline is clear in the scripture.

 

[amigo de christo]

Procedures in discipline

1. Arrange a private meeting with the offender.
2. If a private meeting fails, meet with them and several witnesses.
3. Admonish and warn them.
4. As a final resort, bring the matter up to the whole church.
5. Remove their membership, and avoid them.
6. Be ready to forgive them when repentance occurs.

You just gave the exact pattern that the early church did . THIS is exactly what we are to do .

 

[amigo de christo]

I think we should not come up with our own plan but look to the scriptures for these matters regardless of how difficult they may seem. The above procedures are given to us in the scriptures. Those who have issues with it can take it up with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 18:15-19
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. The church once did this but now the money is more important.

Matthew 18:15-17 clearly and specifically sets forth the practical steps for confronting and correcting a wayward believer.

1. First, one believer (usually the offended person) will meet individually with the other believer to point out the offense. If the brother or sister listens and confesses, the matter is resolved.
2. Second, if the one-on-one meeting is unsuccessful, the offended person will attempt to meet with the believer again, taking with him one or two other members of the church. This allows the confrontation of sin and resulting correction to be confirmed by two or three witnesses.
3. Third, if the person still refuses to listen and change his behavior, the matter is to be taken before the entire congregation. The whole church body will publicly confront the believer and encourage him to repent.
4. Lastly, if all attempts to discipline the believer fail to bring change and repentance, the person will be removed from the fellowship of the church.

Churches do not have the conviction to do the above today it seems.

Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that this final step in church discipline is a way of handing the unrepentant brother "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."

Sounds harsh and much like tough love but Church discipline is clear in the scripture.

Stick to that bible my friend . THIS is the only hope one has and its the only hope for the offender as well .
So as perhaps they will sorrow to repentance . I notice you bring the biblical pattern and scriptures
yet not a person even agrees with this . WELL a few of us do . But all i see is folks overthinking stuff .
KEEP ON my friend . KEEP ON IN THE LORD .

 

[Grailhunter]

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Good scripture.....pertaining to trespassing against you. Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven."
Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Of course back then there was one church.....today something over 30,000 denominations. Each having the authority to make up their own rules?
That is how I see it.

That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Do you think this pans out?

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So who was it that Christ was drinking and eating with?
And if you have a Bible with the word fornicator in it.....you have got the wrong Bible. The word fornicator is from the Latin Vulgate, four centuries after the biblical era. Then retro fitted to change the meaning of the words in the actual scriptures.

Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. The church once did this but now the money is more important.

Matthew 18:15-17 clearly and specifically sets forth the practical steps for confronting and correcting a wayward believer.

1. First, one believer (usually the offended person) will meet individually with the other believer to point out the offense. If the brother or sister listens and confesses, the matter is resolved.
2. Second, if the one-on-one meeting is unsuccessful, the offended person will attempt to meet with the believer again, taking with him one or two other members of the church. This allows the confrontation of sin and resulting correction to be confirmed by two or three witnesses.
3. Third, if the person still refuses to listen and change his behavior, the matter is to be taken before the entire congregation. The whole church body will publicly confront the believer and encourage him to repent.
4. Lastly, if all attempts to discipline the believer fail to bring change and repentance, the person will be removed from the fellowship of the church.

Churches do not have the conviction to do the above today it seems.

Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that this final step in church discipline is a way of handing the unrepentant brother "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."

Sounds harsh and much like tough love but Church discipline is clear in the scripture.

Just what kind of offense or sin would motivate such an action? Then also what kind of offense or sin would motivate turning someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?
Not that I am entirely against this process....LOL....I would go along with public whipping! Before I would kick them out of the church. But it is almost human nature for people to get drunk with power over others. The history of the Catholics is a testimonial to this and it was one of the reasons that the Protestants....Protest churches....did not like the Catholics.

Tread softly.....church discipline....with authority come responsibility and accountability. So then if you are going to confront and correct someone, you better know the scriptures....there is no possible way it can be said that most churches know the scriptures.....if they did, there would not be 30,000 opinions. If you are going to mess around with some else's soul, ya better have your ducks in a row.

 

[TEXBOW]

Good scripture.....pertaining to trespassing against you. Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven."
Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Of course back then there was one church.....today something over 30,000 denominations. Each having the authority to make up their own rules?
That is how I see it.

That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Do you think this pans out?



So who was it that Christ was drinking and eating with?
And if you have a Bible with the word fornicator in it.....you have got the wrong Bible. The word fornicator is from the Latin Vulgate, four centuries after the biblical era. Then retro fitted to change the meaning of the words in the actual scriptures.



Just what kind of offense or sin would motivate such an action? Then also what kind of offense or sin would motivate turning someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?
Not that I am entirely against this process....LOL....I would go along with public whipping! Before I would kick them out of the church. But it is almost human nature for people to get drunk with power over others. The history of the Catholics is a testimonial to this and it was one of the reasons that the Protestants....Protest churches....did not like the Catholics.

Tread softly.....church discipline....with authority come responsibility and accountability. So then if you are going to confront and correct someone, you better know the scriptures....there is no possible way it can be said that most churches know the scriptures.....if they did, there would not be 30,000 opinions. If you are going to mess around with some else's soul, ya better have your ducks in a row.

You are correct that abuse is possible but the possibility of committing a sin is no reason to turn away from instructions regarding Church discipline IMHO. I think the procedures requiring one, then more than one, and then the Church protects somewhat against a false sentence. I think you are right also that at what level of sin is this process deployed. It seems to point to public sinful unrepentant behavior, not coveting that new polished sword you saw for sale on the corner of Ephesus and Cornith.

 

[Taken]

99.9999% of all professing Christian's aren't saved
OP ^

99.9999% ...of percentage declarations are made-up on the spot by individuals opinions, guesswork and imaginations....IOW, not facts.

But I presume the OP’s point is: MOST people who SAY they are Christians....ARE NOT SAVED.
THAT...is likely TRUE.

But then...Claiming to BE a CHRISTIAN, IS NOT “HOW” an individual,
IS Saved....or EVEN Means IS SAVED.
The SAME applies to a “person” who simply says, they ARE A BELIEVER.
Claiming to BE a BELIEVER...is not the same as a “Converted...ie Committed Believer”.

A person claiming TO BE SAVED, or TO BE a COMMITTED BELIEVER...would Expressly identify themselves...
AS a person...”Converted IN Christ”.
AS a person...”Born Again”.
* And IF Christianity IS their preferred “religion”...they may say:
A “Converted Christian”.
A “Born Again Christian”.

BECAUSE...there ARE...”Converted IN Christ”...ie “Born Again” persons, who DO NOT call themselves... “CHRISTIANS”.

There ARE persons who DO heartfully BELIEVE IN Jesus...but NEVER make a “commitment”....ARE THEY SAVED, Born Again?
No, they are NOT Sav-ED. No, they are NOT born AGAIN...

**** HOWEVER....”IF”....they continue their Belief, to the day of their PHYSICAL DEATH....they “SHALL BE SAVED”.
*****They shall NOT be risen up, as part of Christ’s Church.
*****They shall NOT be occupants IN Christ Jesus’ 1,000 year earthly Kingdom.
*****They shall BE raised up, BY GOD, AFTER the 1,000 year reign, and RECEIVE their Salvation and Quickening THEN....ALONG WITH ALL the OTHER body’s of men...WHO believed IN God, (but not Jesus), to the day of their Physical Death, so also THEN shall THEY receive their salvation and quickened spirit.....AND glorified Bodies....AND occupy a Renewed Earth, with the Lord God Almighty, IN HIS World Kingdom, FOREVER.

Inanutshell....I agree...Per World Population (in every era of Population Increase)...FEW People ARE Converted IN Christ (ie Sav-ed and Born Again)...
But then....God already KNEW that would be the outcome...and revealed that knowledge to mankind.

FEW will Commit to the Lord God Almighty. ARE SAVED.
FEW will believe, but not Commit. WILL BE SAVED.
MANY will Reject the Lord God Almighty... WILL NOT BE SAVED.
....WILL suffer temporarily...then destroyed, suffering ended.
SOME will ADVOCATE AGAINST the Lord God Almighty...
...and will NOT BE SAVED...will suffer severely...AND “I lean to believe”... their “suffering”, will not “end” in their destruction, but rather “will be forever”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You are correct that abuse is possible but the possibility of committing a sin is no reason to turn away from instructions regarding Church discipline IMHO. I think the procedures requiring one, then more than one, and then the Church protects somewhat against a false sentence. I think you are right also that at what level of sin is this process deployed. It seems to point to public sinful unrepentant behavior, not coveting that new polished sword you saw for sale on the corner of Ephesus and Cornith.

WHAT do you Believe “SIN” means? (Your perspective of how you believe Sin applies to you) ?

Tnx,
Taken

 

[TEXBOW]

WHAT do you Believe “SIN” means? (Your perspective of how you believe Sin applies to you) ?

Tnx,
Taken

It's a difficult job to define sin that is in the heart of man. We have obvious sins that are clear in the scriptures. Common sense tells us that no person or church leadership can rebuke a person's sin if they do not know of it. If a church member is coveting another church member's new car it's likely no one knows that is happening. I think Paul in his letter is addressing those obvious sins, sins that transgress the law and the new covenant. Murder, fornication, homosexuality, etc. Sins that stumble or could prevent the conversion of a new soul. A negative public perception of the church body. The concern that if it is ok within the church it must be ok and not a sin. "Joe is a Christian and attends the Church down by the river and he is sleeping with his stepmother, must be ok then"

As a believer who has complete faith in the words of God, the "big" sins are easy to understand and avoid. As a believer, sins that are not visible to others that are contained in the heart of man, the Holy Spirit convicts us to seek forgiveness of those sins (lust, coveting, anger, etc). Our obedience to the Lord helps us strengthen our relationship and gives our Spirit more and more authority over our flesh (the culprit of sin within a person). We should all know our salvation is by faith alone but our obedience strengthens our walk in the Spirit. I think many underestimate the spiritual battle between the flesh and our Spirit. Have you ever noticed how a very mature (usually older person) Christian who has served the Lord for many years seems to effortlessly walk in the Spirit? The contentment they have. Their flesh has taken a beat-down and Satan does not waste much time with them.

 

[Grailhunter]

Our obedience to the Lord helps us strengthen our relationship and gives our Spirit more and more authority over our flesh (the culprit of sin within a person). We should all know our salvation is by faith alone but our obedience strengthens our walk in the Spirit.

I agree with most of this. But some of it can be misleading to new Christians. And older Christians end up Juggling a lot of different beliefs. It is a topic with some complexities. Define biblical sin and man-made sins.

The power of salvation is through the belief that Yeshua...is the Son of Yahweh....a full fledged God and Messiah and Savior. Anything less than that and it would like believing in Tom Brady.

Faith alone?
Now it would be interesting to have a spiritual guinea pig, take someone that truly believes in Christ, but they do not repent, sin all they want, do not get baptized, do not participate in the bread and wine ritual and never help anyone with anything......and see were they end up. My vote is that they will end up in hell.

What does it mean to be saved? What does it mean to be a follower of Christ? What does it mean to believe in Christ?
Beliefs---Truths---Facts....strangely enough each can be different.
You cannot understand Christianity by reading the Bible like it is the latest edition of the local Sunday paper. But that is how most of the denominations have been started and how a lot of people develop their beliefs.
Faith, belief, and follower, the concept of saved? What did those words mean to the Apostles? What did it mean in that time period?

And there are things that work against understanding. Christianity does not advocate education, but without it the Bible might as well be the Sunday paper. Ergo the confusion.

The Bible is not going to educate you on the languages and there is a lot of back ground information regarding the languages....not only just the words. History of what actually happened with the languages. For $29.95 you can have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance....great concordance....over 95% percent accurate. Unfortunately its inaccuracies are in areas of the most misunderstood topics. So for in depth study and understanding, it takes some education, formal or informal. Personal research....the problem with that is preconceived beliefs. If you are researching to prove your beliefs, you are likely to never find the truth.

Cultures, the study of Old Testament and New Testament cultures. What were they thinking? What did they understand? Salvation through the Gospels, what were Gospel era Christians told...no Bibles....word of mouth, what was that information that lead them to salvation? Cultural traditions and beliefs can effect religious beliefs....Oh three kings of orient are.....and the star appear over the nativity...right? The Magi were wise men from the orient and that saw the star in the east and followed it.....if they were from the orient and saw the star in the east and followed it, they would be going in the wrong direction....and the star would have lead them to China.

The Apostles were Jewish....only two of them wrote Gospels. Mark and Luke were disciples, disciples of Peter and Paul respectively. Did that have an effect?

History....what is the history of all of it....and how was it affecting what the Apostles are writing and believing.... feeling? Why are there no biblical requirements for weddings? Requirements for weddings to be married were not required until the 1500's and that requirement came from the Protestants. Why? Why weren't Christians performing weddings? That is all history.

The Biblical era, whether it be the Old Testament or New Testament was thousands of years ago. An era that would seem very alien to us. So it is very easy to develop false beliefs. And part of those false beliefs are man-made sins that people accuse others of.

Then you have the Bible and it has been tampered with in every possible way. So the history of the Bible is a big deal....you can know the errors in the various translations it just take research. Now when Miriam called her Son Yeshua for dinner, she yelled Yeshua! Now at the dinner table if they heard the word Jesus, it was because some one sneezed. Some of the basics are misunderstood due to errors in translations. Yes, even you can say Yeshua and Yahweh....where did the name Jesus come from....no one knows and it is not a translation.

And this is why I say that one of the most significant miracles of the Bible is the message of salvation. Most people can read the Bible and know the "Way" to salvation and heaven. Just do what you are told to do....The tampering and mistranslations of the scriptures, have not removed that from the Bible. I consider that a miracle. You can read that like the Sunday paper and know how to be saved. And since all this is a grain of sand compared to eternity in heaven, that is what matters most. The details you can settle in heaven.

 

[amigo de christo]

I agree with most of this. But some of it can be misleading to new Christians. And older Christians end up Juggling a lot of different beliefs. It is a topic with some complexities. Define biblical sin and man-made sins.

The power of salvation is through the belief that Yeshua...is the Son of Yahweh....a full fledged God and Messiah and Savior. Anything less than that and it would like believing in Tom Brady.

Faith alone?
Now it would be interesting to have a spiritual guinea pig, take someone that truly believes in Christ, but they do not repent, sin all they want, do not get baptized, do not participate in the bread and wine ritual and never help anyone with anything......and see were they end up. My vote is that they will end up in hell.

What does it mean to be saved? What does it mean to be a follower of Christ? What does it mean to believe in Christ?
Beliefs---Truths---Facts....strangely enough each can be different.
You cannot understand Christianity by reading the Bible like it is the latest edition of the local Sunday paper. But that is how most of the denominations have been started and how a lot of people develop their beliefs.
Faith, belief, and follower, the concept of saved? What did those words mean to the Apostles? What did it mean in that time period?

And there are things that work against understanding. Christianity does not advocate education, but without it the Bible might as well be the Sunday paper. Ergo the confusion.

The Bible is not going to educate you on the languages and there is a lot of back ground information regarding the languages....not only just the words. History of what actually happened with the languages. For $29.95 you can have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance....great concordance....over 95% percent accurate. Unfortunately its inaccuracies are in areas of the most misunderstood topics. So for in depth study and understanding, it takes some education, formal or informal. Personal research....the problem with that is preconceived beliefs. If you are researching to prove your beliefs, you are likely to never find the truth.

Cultures, the study of Old Testament and New Testament cultures. What were they thinking? What did they understand? Salvation through the Gospels, what were Gospel era Christians told...no Bibles....word of mouth, what was that information that lead them to salvation? Cultural traditions and beliefs can effect religious beliefs....Oh three kings of orient are.....and the star appear over the nativity...right? The Magi were wise men from the orient and that saw the star in the east and followed it.....if they were from the orient and saw the star in the east and followed it, they would be going in the wrong direction....and the star would have lead them to China.

The Apostles were Jewish....only two of them wrote Gospels. Mark and Luke were disciples, disciples of Peter and Paul respectively. Did that have an effect?

History....what is the history of all of it....and how was it affecting what the Apostles are writing and believing.... feeling? Why are there no biblical requirements for weddings? Requirements for weddings to be married were not required until the 1500's and that requirement came from the Protestants. Why? Why weren't Christians performing weddings? That is all history.

The Biblical era, whether it be the Old Testament or New Testament was thousands of years ago. An era that would seem very alien to us. So it is very easy to develop false beliefs. And part of those false beliefs are man-made sins that people accuse others of.

Then you have the Bible and it has been tampered with in every possible way. So the history of the Bible is a big deal....you can know the errors in the various translations it just take research. Now when Miriam called her Son Yeshua for dinner, she yelled Yeshua! Now at the dinner table if they heard the word Jesus, it was because some one sneezed. Some of the basics are misunderstood due to errors in translations. Yes, even you can say Yeshua and Yahweh....where did the name Jesus come from....no one knows and it is not a translation.

And this is why I say that one of the most significant miracles of the Bible is the message of salvation. Most people can read the Bible and know the "Way" to salvation and heaven. Just do what you are told to do....The tampering and mistranslations of the scriptures, have not removed that from the Bible. I consider that a miracle. You can read that like the Sunday paper and know how to be saved. And since all this is a grain of sand compared to eternity in heaven, that is what matters most. The details you can settle in heaven.

Beliefs---Truths---Facts... TO US there is but one in all of these . IT must agree with the TRUTH OF CHRIST .
RETURN TO BIBLES and watch how simple it is .

 

[TEXBOW]

I agree with most of this. But some of it can be misleading to new Christians. And older Christians end up Juggling a lot of different beliefs. It is a topic with some complexities. Define biblical sin and man-made sins.

The power of salvation is through the belief that Yeshua...is the Son of Yahweh....a full fledged God and Messiah and Savior. Anything less than that and it would like believing in Tom Brady.

Faith alone?
Now it would be interesting to have a spiritual guinea pig, take someone that truly believes in Christ, but they do not repent, sin all they want, do not get baptized, do not participate in the bread and wine ritual and never help anyone with anything......and see were they end up. My vote is that they will end up in hell.

What does it mean to be saved? What does it mean to be a follower of Christ? What does it mean to believe in Christ?
Beliefs---Truths---Facts....strangely enough each can be different.
You cannot understand Christianity by reading the Bible like it is the latest edition of the local Sunday paper. But that is how most of the denominations have been started and how a lot of people develop their beliefs.
Faith, belief, and follower, the concept of saved? What did those words mean to the Apostles? What did it mean in that time period?

And there are things that work against understanding. Christianity does not advocate education, but without it the Bible might as well be the Sunday paper. Ergo the confusion.

The Bible is not going to educate you on the languages and there is a lot of back ground information regarding the languages....not only just the words. History of what actually happened with the languages. For $29.95 you can have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance....great concordance....over 95% percent accurate. Unfortunately its inaccuracies are in areas of the most misunderstood topics. So for in depth study and understanding, it takes some education, formal or informal. Personal research....the problem with that is preconceived beliefs. If you are researching to prove your beliefs, you are likely to never find the truth.

Cultures, the study of Old Testament and New Testament cultures. What were they thinking? What did they understand? Salvation through the Gospels, what were Gospel era Christians told...no Bibles....word of mouth, what was that information that lead them to salvation? Cultural traditions and beliefs can effect religious beliefs....Oh three kings of orient are.....and the star appear over the nativity...right? The Magi were wise men from the orient and that saw the star in the east and followed it.....if they were from the orient and saw the star in the east and followed it, they would be going in the wrong direction....and the star would have lead them to China.

The Apostles were Jewish....only two of them wrote Gospels. Mark and Luke were disciples, disciples of Peter and Paul respectively. Did that have an effect?

History....what is the history of all of it....and how was it affecting what the Apostles are writing and believing.... feeling? Why are there no biblical requirements for weddings? Requirements for weddings to be married were not required until the 1500's and that requirement came from the Protestants. Why? Why weren't Christians performing weddings? That is all history.

The Biblical era, whether it be the Old Testament or New Testament was thousands of years ago. An era that would seem very alien to us. So it is very easy to develop false beliefs. And part of those false beliefs are man-made sins that people accuse others of.

Then you have the Bible and it has been tampered with in every possible way. So the history of the Bible is a big deal....you can know the errors in the various translations it just take research. Now when Miriam called her Son Yeshua for dinner, she yelled Yeshua! Now at the dinner table if they heard the word Jesus, it was because some one sneezed. Some of the basics are misunderstood due to errors in translations. Yes, even you can say Yeshua and Yahweh....where did the name Jesus come from....no one knows and it is not a translation.

And this is why I say that one of the most significant miracles of the Bible is the message of salvation. Most people can read the Bible and know the "Way" to salvation and heaven. Just do what you are told to do....The tampering and mistranslations of the scriptures, have not removed that from the Bible. I consider that a miracle. You can read that like the Sunday paper and know how to be saved. And since all this is a grain of sand compared to eternity in heaven, that is what matters most. The details you can settle in heaven.

We have had this discussion before my friend. Romans 10:9-13 is very clear. My lack of defining the all-encompassing definition of faith is not implying that a check the box belief and your good to go brings salvation it was just not the point of my response. Volumes could be written on what, when, and where is sin and it would fall short. It would be a sin for me to purposely enter into a lady's dressing room but not a sin for my wife to do so. Crazy example but my point is that believers who are indwelled in the Holy Spirit are convicted of sin (I know I am). The big sins are easy to see. I pray that I'm forgiven of sins that I'm not aware I'm committing. I think God knows our heart and there is a difference between committing a sin (we all do it) and living a sinful life rejecting the scriptures. If a person of faith has a rare outburst of anger at another person and wishes that person would run their car in a ditch and total their car and that person of faith has a heart attack and dies before seeking forgiveness I am confident he or she is not going to hell because of that sin.

 

[Grailhunter]

We have had this discussion before my friend. Romans 10:9-13 is very clear. My lack of defining the all-encompassing definition of faith is not implying that a check the box belief and your good to go brings salvation it was just not the point of my response. Volumes could be written on what, when, and where is sin and it would fall short. It would be a sin for me to purposely enter into a lady's dressing room but not a sin for my wife to do so. Crazy example but my point is that believers who are indwelled in the Holy Spirit are convicted of sin (I know I am). The big sins are easy to see. I pray that I'm forgiven of sins that I'm not aware I'm committing. I think God knows our heart and there is a difference between committing a sin (we all do it) and living a sinful life rejecting the scriptures. If a person of faith has a rare outburst of anger at another person and wishes that person would run their car in a ditch and total their car and that person of faith has a heart attack and dies before seeking forgiveness I am confident he or she is not going to hell because of that sin.

Yes, but your skinning the peel of the apple....good to know deeper than that.
Again the deeper question is the deeper understanding.
Again my example of the guinea pig....what would happen to him or them?
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Acts 2:38?
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify John 6:53-69....no life in you? Not abiding in Christ and He in you? How is that salvation?
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Matthew 25:31-46 and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Luke 6:26 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Does Romans 10:9:13 Matthew 7:20-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Did tell them to just have faith? Did He even mention faith?)
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify James 1:22 "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

"Check the box belief".....I think it is a very disrespectful way to describe the religion Christ and Apostles taught.
Salvation is not described as a single event or a mere belief. Nor is it described as a ticket to heaven. Accepting Christ and faith is the beginning of our journey....working out our salvation with fear and trembling... Philippians 2:12
There is a lot that can happen on that journey and in the end what we do both good and bad will be judged by Christ.....so that journey does not always lead to heaven.

Some nit pick the scriptures to mold them into what they want to believe. It is never the truth. As far as new Christians.....
Believing in Christ is the first step
Then the Bibles says repent, be baptized, participate in the Bread and Wine ritual...those are the boxes you want to checkoff. Unless you can find a scripture that says you can be saved by not doing what Christ said to do....you have a false belief. And you are a danger to others.
Be good and do good.

 

[TEXBOW]

Yes, but your skinning the peel of the apple....good to know deeper than that.
Again the deeper question is the deeper understanding.
Again my example of the guinea pig....what would happen to him or them?
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Acts 2:38?
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify John 6:53-69....no life in you? Not abiding in Christ and He in you? How is that salvation?
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Matthew 25:31-46 and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Luke 6:26 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Does Romans 10:9:13 Matthew 7:20-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Did tell them to just have faith? Did He even mention faith?)
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Does Romans 10:9-13 nullify James 1:22 "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

"Check the box belief".....I think it is a very disrespectful way to describe the religion Christ and Apostles taught.
Salvation is not described as a single event or a mere belief. Nor is it described as a ticket to heaven. Accepting Christ and faith is the beginning of our journey....working out our salvation with fear and trembling... Philippians 2:12
There is a lot that can happen on that journey and in the end what we do both good and bad will be judged by Christ.....so that journey does not always lead to heaven.

Some nit pick the scriptures to mold them into what they want to believe. It is never the truth. As far as new Christians.....
Believing in Christ is the first step
Then the Bibles says repent, be baptized, participate in the Bread and Wine ritual...those are the boxes you want to checkoff. Unless you can find a scripture that says you can be saved by not doing what Christ said to do....you have a false belief. And you are a danger to others.
Be good and do good.

I'm not sure if we are on the same page or not. First, I'm not a gifted writer so things can be lost in my efforts. As for my own view regarding salvation, I believe in Acts as a transition book from the law to by faith alone for salvation. I do think from Genisis to the rapture it's always been and will be about faith and not works. The Jews including the 12 Apostles struggled with the law not being applicable to the Gentile. The law never saved anyone. The Jews had been rocking along for a couple of thousand years and all of a sudden the law is not how you get to heaven. The Messiah was an issue for the majority of Jews. For a period of time, the Apostles dragged their feet and reasoned that salvation required baptism by water, and then no not really it was baptism by the Holy Spirit and a number of other Jewish traditions. Some Theologians say it took 50 years for the Jews to really come around to accepting Faith as a means of salvation. I view John the Baptist as the last OT prophet and water baptism something the Jews would identify with similar to their washing customs. IMHO water baptism and communion are ordinances a follower of Christ should do but are not a works for salvation.

As discussed before I'M NOT A CHECK THE BOX TYPE OF BELIEVER. I put my belief in salvation upon the teachings of Paul but I'm not someone who discounts the teachings of the Apostles either. I just think there was a change of understanding taking place after Pauls's conversion. I think Peter got it first out of the 12. The pathway to salvation is given differently in the Bible as you pointed out. My own personal view is repentance (making a change) Confessing my sins and believing that Jesus the Son of God died on the cross for our sins and rose on the 3rd day. Those who do so sincerely are indwelled in the Holy Spirit. You are Saved. Then as a true follower of Jesus Christ, you demote the flesh and promote the Spirit for guidance, growth, knowledge, conviction, and strengthening of your walk in the Spirit. If there is no change in your life/behavior and you do not desire to obey God's word and guidance of the Holy Spirit you need to check yourself for your not sincere in your faith. Our obedience is evidence of our salvation and not a works for salvation. You cannot check enough boxes to save yourself.

I think after the cross the pathway to salvation had nuances based upon who what and where. I can see James talking to a devote Jew in 35 AD in an effort to bring him to Christ and I can see Paul talking to a Gentile in Rome in 55 AD on a street corner who had no knowledge of the Jewish law or history, in an effort to bring him to Christ. Those two messages I'm guessing are very different but end up at the same place, faith. It's not surprising to me that the verses in your post have differences. It's easy to see how different John 3:16 is from Acts 2:38 and Romans 10:9-11. In my studies, I have come to believe that "believe" in John 3:16 could be translated as "obey" and still be within the Greek language.

Some wish to bundle salvation with works and tie it up in a bow calling it born again. I separate all works (any physical effort of man) from
salvation. Man's efforts are because of his love of Christ and letting the Holy Spirit call the shots in your life going forward. The tree grows and produces fruit. Fruit is not traded for salvation. I also believe that a person can fall from grace and turn his back on God. Paul gives the Churches way too many warnings for this to not be true IMHO. The letters to the Churches in Revelation also point to the possibility of falling from grace and loss of salvation.

 

[Grailhunter]

I do think from Genisis to the rapture it's always been and will be about faith and not works.

What it looks like is that you are jumbling a bunch of disconnected facts. What did the Jews get for trying to obey the Law? Paul refers to it in the New Testament as works of the Law. What did it benefit them in the Old Testament.

The Jews had been rocking along for a couple of thousand years and all of a sudden the law is not how you get to heaven.

Disconnected; Did God ever offer heaven as a reward in the Old Testament? No scripture in the Old Testament that indicates that Yahweh ever offered Heaven as a reward for following His Laws.

the Apostles dragged their feet and reasoned that salvation required baptism by water,

Disconnected; Find that scripture. There was never a time that water baptism was not required....check the early Christian writers and the history of Christianity...It is not until modern times that we see people rebelling against the Gospels and Christian scriptures. Now a days it is almost fashionable....cancel culture....cancel scriptures....Christ was wrong! I have it right!

As discussed before I'M NOT A CHECK THE BOX TYPE OF BELIEVER. I put my belief in salvation upon the teachings of Paul

Disconnected; Christ and the Apostles were all check the box teachers of the Gospel. Paul is great but he cannot provide salvation so what Christ said has authority over Paul.

As discussed before I'M NOT A CHECK THE BOX TYPE OF BELIEVER. I put my belief in salvation upon the teachings of Paul but I'm not someone who discounts the teachings of the Apostles either. I just think there was a change of understanding taking place after Pauls's conversion. I think Peter got it first out of the 12. The pathway to salvation is given differently in the Bible as you pointed out. My own personal view is repentance (making a change) Confessing my sins and believing that Jesus the Son of God died on the cross for our sins and rose on the 3rd day. Those who do so sincerely are indwelled in the Holy Spirit. You are Saved. Then as a true follower of Jesus Christ, you demote the flesh and promote the Spirit for guidance, growth, knowledge, conviction, and strengthening of your walk in the Spirit. If there is no change in your life/behavior and you do not desire to obey God's word and guidance of the Holy Spirit you need to check yourself for your not sincere in your faith. Our obedience is evidence of our salvation and not a works for salvation. You cannot check enough boxes to save yourself.

I did a whole thread on works....there is a history confusion on that. The only "works" in the New Testament is the works of the Mosaic Law and definitely the law cannot save you. What Christ and the Apostles told us to do is not works. But then again you could do the Guinea Pig thing and see what happens.
Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings is that "believing in Christ and or being saved" is a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I gave you all those scriptures, not every one that believes in Him is going to heaven. Believe in Him, sin all you want and go to heaven....heaven then full of evil and good people and God has to move out. It is a heresy.

As far as not able to check off enough boxes to save yourself. I could cuss when people say something like this....just know I am thinking it. No one that I know believes that you can check off enough boxes to save yourself.
You can be nice and near perfect and do good to all and not go to heaven.
And you can believe in Christ and go to hell.
Everyone knows it is Christ that saves us....so stop saying this silly stuff!
It is not doing good deeds, it is not leading a nearly sinless life that saves us, but as the Bible says not doing some of this stuff will get you to hell. And living a sinful lifestyle will get you to hell. I gave you the scriptures and I think you can read.

Some wish to bundle salvation with works and tie it up in a bow calling it born again. I separate all works (any physical effort of man) from
salvation.

Christ and the Apostles are the ones that tied that bow.
Again a disconnected approach to salvation....I have already addressed the word works and the fact it ticks me off when people use it. Why does it tick me off? Because it means just some one else trying to hide a lie behind a term....Works cannot save you! What it really means...you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles told you to do in regard to salvation....disobedience cannot prevent you from going to heaven, and good deeds are optional. Basically sign up for heaven and do what ever you want. No such thing was taught by Christ or the Apostles.

The things I preach, I am not going to have to worry about Judgment Day.
Believe in Christ.
Sincerely repent.
Baptism and the Bread and Wine ritual.
Love God and each other.
Help those in need....charity
Be good and do good the best you can.

Perspective....Your beliefs seem to be pretty messed up. But that is just what I am getting out of your words. I do not know what you do....how you apply Christianity to your life. You may not believe what the scriptures say, but that still does not mean you are not a good person. And I am not the judge of whether you go to heaven or hell....that is between you and Christ.

 

[TEXBOW]

What it looks like is that you are jumbling a bunch of disconnected facts. What did the Jews get for trying to obey the Law? Paul refers to it in the New Testament as works of the Law. What did it benefit them in the Old Testament.



Disconnected; Did God ever offer heaven as a reward in the Old Testament? No scripture in the Old Testament that indicates that Yahweh ever offered Heaven as a reward for following His Laws.



Disconnected; Find that scripture. There was never a time that water baptism was not required....check the early Christian writers and the history of Christianity...It is not until modern times that we see people rebelling against the Gospels and Christian scriptures. Now a days it is almost fashionable....cancel culture....cancel scriptures....Christ was wrong! I have it right!



Disconnected; Christ and the Apostles were all check the box teachers of the Gospel. Paul is great but he cannot provide salvation so what Christ said has authority over Paul.



I did a whole thread on works....there is a history confusion on that. The only "works" in the New Testament is the works of the Mosaic Law and definitely the law cannot save you. What Christ and the Apostles told us to do is not works. But then again you could do the Guinea Pig thing and see what happens.
Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings is that "believing in Christ and or being saved" is a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I gave you all those scriptures, not every one that believes in Him is going to heaven. Believe in Him, sin all you want and go to heaven....heaven then full of evil and good people and God has to move out. It is a heresy.

As far as not able to check off enough boxes to save yourself. I could cuss when people say something like this....just know I am thinking it. No one that I know believes that you can check off enough boxes to save yourself.
You can be nice and near perfect and do good to all and not go to heaven.
And you can believe in Christ and go to hell.
Everyone knows it is Christ that saves us....so stop saying this silly stuff!
It is not doing good deeds, it is not leading a nearly sinless life that saves us, but as the Bible says not doing some of this stuff will get you to hell. And living a sinful lifestyle will get you to hell. I gave you the scriptures and I think you can read.



Christ and the Apostles are the ones that tied that bow.
Again a disconnected approach to salvation....I have already addressed the word works and the fact it ticks me off when people use it. Why does it tick me off? Because it means just some one else trying to hide a lie behind a term....Works cannot save you! What it really means...you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles told you to do in regard to salvation....disobedience cannot prevent you from going to heaven, and good deeds are optional. Basically sign up for heaven and do what ever you want. No such thing was taught by Christ or the Apostles.

The things I preach, I am not going to have to worry about Judgment Day.
Believe in Christ.
Sincerely repent.
Baptism and the Bread and Wine ritual.
Love God and each other.
Help those in need....charity
Be good and do good the best you can.

Perspective....Your beliefs seem to be pretty messed up. But that is just what I am getting out of your words. I do not know what you do....how you apply Christianity to your life. You may not believe what the scriptures say, but that still does not mean you are not a good person. And I am not the judge of whether you go to heaven or hell....that is between you and Christ.

TEXBOW said: ↑
As discussed before I'M NOT A CHECK THE BOX TYPE OF BELIEVER. I put my belief in salvation upon the teachings of Paul
Disconnected; Christ and the Apostles were all check the box teachers of the Gospel. Paul is great but he cannot provide salvation so what Christ said has authority over Paul.


I define "check the box believer" as one who says the sinner's prayer and then goes about his life as he did before. I think we are miss understanding each other. There are certainly people who think like that.

 

[TEXBOW]

What it looks like is that you are jumbling a bunch of disconnected facts. What did the Jews get for trying to obey the Law? Paul refers to it in the New Testament as works of the Law. What did it benefit them in the Old Testament.



Disconnected; Did God ever offer heaven as a reward in the Old Testament? No scripture in the Old Testament that indicates that Yahweh ever offered Heaven as a reward for following His Laws.



Disconnected; Find that scripture. There was never a time that water baptism was not required....check the early Christian writers and the history of Christianity...It is not until modern times that we see people rebelling against the Gospels and Christian scriptures. Now a days it is almost fashionable....cancel culture....cancel scriptures....Christ was wrong! I have it right!



Disconnected; Christ and the Apostles were all check the box teachers of the Gospel. Paul is great but he cannot provide salvation so what Christ said has authority over Paul.



I did a whole thread on works....there is a history confusion on that. The only "works" in the New Testament is the works of the Mosaic Law and definitely the law cannot save you. What Christ and the Apostles told us to do is not works. But then again you could do the Guinea Pig thing and see what happens.
Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings is that "believing in Christ and or being saved" is a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I gave you all those scriptures, not every one that believes in Him is going to heaven. Believe in Him, sin all you want and go to heaven....heaven then full of evil and good people and God has to move out. It is a heresy.

As far as not able to check off enough boxes to save yourself. I could cuss when people say something like this....just know I am thinking it. No one that I know believes that you can check off enough boxes to save yourself.
You can be nice and near perfect and do good to all and not go to heaven.
And you can believe in Christ and go to hell.
Everyone knows it is Christ that saves us....so stop saying this silly stuff!
It is not doing good deeds, it is not leading a nearly sinless life that saves us, but as the Bible says not doing some of this stuff will get you to hell. And living a sinful lifestyle will get you to hell. I gave you the scriptures and I think you can read.



Christ and the Apostles are the ones that tied that bow.
Again a disconnected approach to salvation....I have already addressed the word works and the fact it ticks me off when people use it. Why does it tick me off? Because it means just some one else trying to hide a lie behind a term....Works cannot save you! What it really means...you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles told you to do in regard to salvation....disobedience cannot prevent you from going to heaven, and good deeds are optional. Basically sign up for heaven and do what ever you want. No such thing was taught by Christ or the Apostles.

The things I preach, I am not going to have to worry about Judgment Day.
Believe in Christ.
Sincerely repent.
Baptism and the Bread and Wine ritual.
Love God and each other.
Help those in need....charity
Be good and do good the best you can.

Perspective....Your beliefs seem to be pretty messed up. But that is just what I am getting out of your words. I do not know what you do....how you apply Christianity to your life. You may not believe what the scriptures say, but that still does not mean you are not a good person. And I am not the judge of whether you go to heaven or hell....that is between you and Christ.

TEXBOW said: ↑
Some wish to bundle salvation with works and tie it up in a bow calling it born again. I separate all works (any physical effort of man) from
salvation.
Christ and the Apostles are the ones that tied that bow.
Again a disconnected approach to salvation....I have already addressed the word works and the fact it ticks me off when people use it. Why does it tick me off? Because it means just some one else trying to hide a lie behind a term....Works cannot save you! What it really means...you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles told you to do in regard to salvation....disobedience cannot prevent you from going to heaven, and good deeds are optional. Basically sign up for heaven and do what ever you want. No such thing was taught by Christ or the Apostles.

Regardless of how much it ticks you off some myself included understanding the difference between salvation and obedience to God's word. Works are evidence of your salvation not how you obtain salvation. If that were not true then the cross was not sufficient, it would require you to perform rituals and read the word every day and so forth to be saved and once you did enough of those things then wow you were finally saved. That is contrary to scripture. Paul clearly tells us this. Cornelius didn't do a bunch of works before he believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit. All before he got wet.

 

[TEXBOW]

What it looks like is that you are jumbling a bunch of disconnected facts. What did the Jews get for trying to obey the Law? Paul refers to it in the New Testament as works of the Law. What did it benefit them in the Old Testament.



Disconnected; Did God ever offer heaven as a reward in the Old Testament? No scripture in the Old Testament that indicates that Yahweh ever offered Heaven as a reward for following His Laws.



Disconnected; Find that scripture. There was never a time that water baptism was not required....check the early Christian writers and the history of Christianity...It is not until modern times that we see people rebelling against the Gospels and Christian scriptures. Now a days it is almost fashionable....cancel culture....cancel scriptures....Christ was wrong! I have it right!



Disconnected; Christ and the Apostles were all check the box teachers of the Gospel. Paul is great but he cannot provide salvation so what Christ said has authority over Paul.



I did a whole thread on works....there is a history confusion on that. The only "works" in the New Testament is the works of the Mosaic Law and definitely the law cannot save you. What Christ and the Apostles told us to do is not works. But then again you could do the Guinea Pig thing and see what happens.
Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings is that "believing in Christ and or being saved" is a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I gave you all those scriptures, not every one that believes in Him is going to heaven. Believe in Him, sin all you want and go to heaven....heaven then full of evil and good people and God has to move out. It is a heresy.

As far as not able to check off enough boxes to save yourself. I could cuss when people say something like this....just know I am thinking it. No one that I know believes that you can check off enough boxes to save yourself.
You can be nice and near perfect and do good to all and not go to heaven.
And you can believe in Christ and go to hell.
Everyone knows it is Christ that saves us....so stop saying this silly stuff!
It is not doing good deeds, it is not leading a nearly sinless life that saves us, but as the Bible says not doing some of this stuff will get you to hell. And living a sinful lifestyle will get you to hell. I gave you the scriptures and I think you can read.



Christ and the Apostles are the ones that tied that bow.
Again a disconnected approach to salvation....I have already addressed the word works and the fact it ticks me off when people use it. Why does it tick me off? Because it means just some one else trying to hide a lie behind a term....Works cannot save you! What it really means...you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles told you to do in regard to salvation....disobedience cannot prevent you from going to heaven, and good deeds are optional. Basically sign up for heaven and do what ever you want. No such thing was taught by Christ or the Apostles.

The things I preach, I am not going to have to worry about Judgment Day.
Believe in Christ.
Sincerely repent.
Baptism and the Bread and Wine ritual.
Love God and each other.
Help those in need....charity
Be good and do good the best you can.

Perspective....Your beliefs seem to be pretty messed up. But that is just what I am getting out of your words. I do not know what you do....how you apply Christianity to your life. You may not believe what the scriptures say, but that still does not mean you are not a good person. And I am not the judge of whether you go to heaven or hell....that is between you and Christ.

TEXBOW said: ↑
the Apostles dragged their feet and reasoned that salvation required baptism by water,
Disconnected; Find that scripture. There was never a time that water baptism was not required....check the early Christian writers and the history of Christianity...It is not until modern times that we see people rebelling against the Gospels and Christian scriptures. Now a days it is almost fashionable....cancel culture....cancel scriptures....Christ was wrong! I have it right!

We disagree. There are many times that water baptism is not mentioned during a conversion. The jailer and many others. We no longer believe circumcision is necessary, we no longer make blood sacrifices and we know that water baptism is not a condition of salvation. Millions have been saved who never even had a chance to get wet. I can't fantom anyone thinking that the cross was not enough and that you need to do some work or ritual to help God out. The born-again Christian desires baptism and communion but knows that you can't do that enough times to earn your salvation.

 

[Grailhunter]

TEXBOW said: ↑
Some wish to bundle salvation with works and tie it up in a bow calling it born again. I separate all works (any physical effort of man) from
salvation.
Christ and the Apostles are the ones that tied that bow.
Again a disconnected approach to salvation....I have already addressed the word works and the fact it ticks me off when people use it. Why does it tick me off? Because it means just some one else trying to hide a lie behind a term....Works cannot save you! What it really means...you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles told you to do in regard to salvation....disobedience cannot prevent you from going to heaven, and good deeds are optional. Basically sign up for heaven and do what ever you want. No such thing was taught by Christ or the Apostles.

Regardless of how much it ticks you off some myself included understanding the difference between salvation and obedience to God's word. Works are evidence of your salvation not how you obtain salvation. If that were not true then the cross was not sufficient, it would require you to perform rituals and read the word every day and so forth to be saved and once you did enough of those things then wow you were finally saved. That is contrary to scripture. Paul clearly tells us this. Cornelius didn't do a bunch of works before he believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit. All before he got wet.

I keep getting the same thing from you but you say we are not on the same page. You looking through the scriptures to find what you already believe....that is not how you understand Christianity. Are their special circumstances...sure. Do they nullify everything Christ and The Apostles told us to do? No. The Sheep and the Goats....was Yeshua just kidding? Chapter 6 of John and Christ saying no life in you and He not abiding in you or you not abiding in him and not raising you on the last day....was He was just kidding?

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Were Paul and John just kidding. This is what concerns me. You are disregarding the majority of the New Testament to point out scriptures that do not follow the majority of the spirit of the New Testament. I could give you a lot more scriptures but I do not think it would matter....you are only going to take to heart what you want and disregard the others. I have done my part so the rest is up to you.