A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG

Jesus reigns forever and the Kingdom of God is endless (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 explained)

Some deluded people exalt their unscriptural interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, that King Jesus Christ's reign in the Kingdom of God has an end, above the proclamation of apostles, prophets, angels, heavenly voices, and the Word of God.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove their error:

• The angel Gabriel declares that Jesus Christ reigns without end in the Kingdom of God "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end." (Luke 1:32-33).
• God declares the Son's throne endures forever with "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'" (Hebrews 1:8)
• Heavenly voices declare that Christ Reigns in the Kingdom of God forever and ever with "Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.'" (Revelation 11:15)
• Daniel declares that Christ's Dominion is an everlasting Dominion with "And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away, and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:14)
• Peter declares the eternal Kingdom of God of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ with "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:11)
• Paul wrote "He is excepted" (1 Corinthians 15:27) referring to Jesus, and Paul wrote "He is excepted" inside the 1 Cor 15:24-28 passage. Here is the full verse, "For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him" (1 Corinthians 15:27).
  
  Somehow, according to Paul, the Son is in subjection (1 Corinthians 15:28) while at the same time the Son is NOT in subjection because the Son is excepted (1 Corinthians 15:27), and this is because Jesus is God.
  
  Paul uses only the word "Son" to identify Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, not specifically "Son of Man" nor "Son of God"; nonetheless, Paul does use masculine pronouns to identify Jesus in the passage.
  
  For coherency among all these scripture such as Luke 1:32-33 and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Paul explains the Son of Man will stop reigning, but the Son of God will continue reigning.
  
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  
  We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Keiw]

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Sad to see you choose to stay blinded. When was Jesus named Immanuel?
They are one in purpose--there are many facts you refuse to believe backing that truth.
If they were one as you believe. Jesus would already have been king and wouldnt need to be appointed, or have to hand the kingdom back. As Well Jesus would know the day and hour but he doesnt. He would have already had the revelation but God had give it to him. Rev 1:1) The LORD(YHWH) said to my Lord proves they are separate beings and Jesus is not YHWH. You wont believe facts over errors.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG

Jesus reigns forever and the Kingdom of God is endless (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 explained)

Some deluded people exalt their unscriptural interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, that King Jesus Christ's reign in the Kingdom of God has an end, above the proclamation of apostles, prophets, angels, heavenly voices, and the Word of God.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove their error:

• The angel Gabriel declares that Jesus Christ reigns without end in the Kingdom of God "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end." (Luke 1:32-33).
• God declares the Son's throne endures forever with "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'" (Hebrews 1:8)
• Heavenly voices declare that Christ Reigns in the Kingdom of God forever and ever with "Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.'" (Revelation 11:15)
• Daniel declares that Christ's Dominion is an everlasting Dominion with "And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away, and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:14)
• Peter declares the eternal Kingdom of God of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ with "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:11)
• Paul wrote "He is excepted" (1 Corinthians 15:27) referring to Jesus, and Paul wrote "He is excepted" inside the 1 Cor 15:24-28 passage. Here is the full verse, "For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him" (1 Corinthians 15:27).
  
  Somehow, according to Paul, the Son is in subjection (1 Corinthians 15:28) while at the same time the Son is NOT in subjection because the Son is excepted (1 Corinthians 15:27), and this is because Jesus is God.
  
  Paul uses only the word "Son" to identify Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, not specifically "Son of Man" nor "Son of God"; nonetheless, Paul does use masculine pronouns to identify Jesus in the passage.
  
  For coherency among all these scripture such as Luke 1:32-33 and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Paul explains the Son of Man will stop reigning, but the Son of God will continue reigning.
  
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  
  We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You cant understand english very well can you. If one has to hand the kingdom back to his God and Father and subject himself. is self explanatory. 10 year olds could understand it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Some deluded people exalt their unscriptural interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, that King Jesus Christ's reign in the Kingdom of God has an end, above the proclamation of apostles, prophets, angels, heavenly voices, and the Word of God.

It seems to me that you are overlooking the big picture and focusing in only on what you are trying to defend against your list of ‘suspects’.....whom you accuse of lying.

Go back to Eden and ask yourself who it was that was “King” and lawgiver to his human creation?
The first humans had the prospect set before them of living forever in their beautiful paradise home and serving the interests of their God and King forever, extending the boundaries of their garden home until the whole world looked like the garden of Eden. What a wonderful start he gave them, generously providing for all their needs and giving them satisfying work to do forever, maintaining and tending to their garden environment, enjoying and sharing life with all of God’s creatures......with no ageing, no sickness and no death. “The tree of life” guaranteed that they would never taste death.....unless they disobeyed. This was the life God originally planned for his human creation......but a rebel angel decided that he wanted to be “like God” and have these lower creatures serve him......and we know how the story played out, so here we are. But how did God respond to the situation?
He basically had two choices....
1) Put all three rebels to death and start again.....
or
2) Use the rebellion to teach us the most valuable lesson that humans and angels would ever have, the results of which will resonate down through all eternity.....which means that rebellion can never happen again. Precedents are set for all time to come, and no rebel will ever be able to challenge God’s Sovereignty again.

So given that scenario, if the rebellion had never happened, what would have resulted? What life would humans have had if things had played out as God first intended? The rebels all had free will and each could have chosen a different course. What if they had chosen differently? If they had never sinned, Christ would never have needed to sacrifice his life...in fact we would never have known the man Jesus Christ at all. What then? Who would have remained as King and rightful Sovereign over the human race?

If you understand the role of Jesus Christ correctly, you will see why he was appointed as “mediator between God and men” (1 Timothy 2:5-6) If we need a mediator between us and God, how can Jesus be God?

Jesus was to become the king of God’s kingdom for the simple reason that he was appointed to that position...to mediate between God and men. Jesus was the one “through” whom our prayers to God were to be offered.... “in Jesus’ name”, acknowledges Jesus as our “go between”, taking our requests to God in his name.
Sin is the barrier between humans and God and the Father appointed his son as the means to keep the lines of communication open, otherwise sin would prevent us coming before God completely.

As the son of this King, Jesus can serve in a co-regent capacity.....he receives his authority from his own King and Sovereign. Only God could give his son that authority (Matthew 28:18)....but the kingdom serves a purpose, which most in Christendom have no clue about. Because they see Jesus and his Father as one entity, the Bible’s clear and simple scenario cannot be entertained because it means relinquishing their primary belief....but this is something the Bible does not support except by reading into scripture what they want it to say.

By appointing his son as King of his Kingdom, God allows a thousand years for that kingdom to bring the human race back into complete reconciliation with their Creator. God also appointed specially chosen assistants from the earth to act as “kings and priests”. (Revelation 20:6) Once that reconciliation is complete, then the co-regent king hands the kingdom back to its rightful Ruler.....his God and Father. The kingdom lasts forever, but Jesus’ capacity as king has a purpose and a time limit. As it says, when that is accomplished, he hands the rulership back to its rightful King, once the barrier of sin has been removed.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You see....you keep harping on with that one scripture that has been explained to you many times, but you have your fingers in your ears, unable to even hear it. Ask yourself why?
Jesus as the “only begotten son” of God was definitely in existence before any other creation...the Bible confirms this, (Colossians 1:15) but he has not existed as long as his Father. The relationship of ‘Father and son’ is what they call it themselves, so it is obvious that they wanted us to comprehend what that meant as we humans understand it. A Father always exists before his son. How do a father and son come into existence simultaneously? If these were two parts of the same God, then they would simply have names to confirm their equality.....no terms exist in the Bible that makes them both equal parts of a three part “godhead”. They have roles that overlap, but both are not Almighty God. As Isaiah 45:5 confirms, there is no other God but Yahweh....and Yahweh is “one”...not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

You have never been able to provide a direct statement from either God or his son that they are equal parts of a “godhead” with the holy spirit. There is no such word as “godhead” in the Bible....trinitarians made it up by mistranslating a word that did not mean that at all.
Being “divine” does not make one “deity”.

I’m sure this will all fall on deaf ears for yourself and other like-minded people, but hopefully the readers here will evaluate the Bible’s own clear explanation and come to the correct conclusion.

 

[Kermos]

Sad to see you choose to stay blinded. When was Jesus named Immanuel?
They are one in purpose--there are many facts you refuse to believe backing that truth.
If they were one as you believe. Jesus would already have been king and wouldnt need to be appointed, or have to hand the kingdom back. As Well Jesus would know the day and hour but he doesnt. He would have already had the revelation but God had give it to him. Rev 1:1) The LORD(YHWH) said to my Lord proves they are separate beings and Jesus is not YHWH. You wont believe facts over errors.

You cant understand english very well can you. If one has to hand the kingdom back to his God and Father and subject himself. is self explanatory. 10 year olds could understand it.

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

You and @Aunty Jane deny that Jesus will reign forever as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

@Aunty Jane, your "like" of keiw's post places you in accord with keiw thus you inherit the ramifications listed below about keiw's deceptions.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

It seems to me that you are overlooking the big picture and focusing in only on what you are trying to defend against your list of ‘suspects’.....whom you accuse of lying.

Go back to Eden and ask yourself who it was that was “King” and lawgiver to his human creation?
The first humans had the prospect set before them of living forever in their beautiful paradise home and serving the interests of their God and King forever, extending the boundaries of their garden home until the whole world looked like the garden of Eden. What a wonderful start he gave them, generously providing for all their needs and giving them satisfying work to do forever, maintaining and tending to their garden environment, enjoying and sharing life with all of God’s creatures......with no ageing, no sickness and no death. “The tree of life” guaranteed that they would never taste death.....unless they disobeyed. This was the life God originally planned for his human creation......but a rebel angel decided that he wanted to be “like God” and have these lower creatures serve him......and we know how the story played out, so here we are. But how did God respond to the situation?
He basically had two choices....
1) Put all three rebels to death and start again.....
or
2) Use the rebellion to teach us the most valuable lesson that humans and angels would ever have, the results of which will resonate down through all eternity.....which means that rebellion can never happen again. Precedents are set for all time to come, and no rebel will ever be able to challenge God’s Sovereignty again.

So given that scenario, if the rebellion had never happened, what would have resulted? What life would humans have had if things had played out as God first intended? The rebels all had free will and each could have chosen a different course. What if they had chosen differently? If they had never sinned, Christ would never have needed to sacrifice his life...in fact we would never have known the man Jesus Christ at all. What then? Who would have remained as King and rightful Sovereign over the human race?

If you understand the role of Jesus Christ correctly, you will see why he was appointed as “mediator between God and men” (1 Timothy 2:5-6) If we need a mediator between us and God, how can Jesus be God?

Jesus was to become the king of God’s kingdom for the simple reason that he was appointed to that position...to mediate between God and men. Jesus was the one “through” whom our prayers to God were to be offered.... “in Jesus’ name”, acknowledges Jesus as our “go between”, taking our requests to God in his name.
Sin is the barrier between humans and God and the Father appointed his son as the means to keep the lines of communication open, otherwise sin would prevent us coming before God completely.

As the son of this King, Jesus can serve in a co-regent capacity.....he receives his authority from his own King and Sovereign. Only God could give his son that authority (Matthew 28:18)....but the kingdom serves a purpose, which most in Christendom have no clue about. Because they see Jesus and his Father as one entity, the Bible’s clear and simple scenario cannot be entertained because it means relinquishing their primary belief....but this is something the Bible does not support except by reading into scripture what they want it to say.

By appointing his son as King of his Kingdom, God allows a thousand years for that kingdom to bring the human race back into complete reconciliation with their Creator. God also appointed specially chosen assistants form the earth to act as “kings and priests”. (Revelation 20:6) Once that reconciliation is complete, then the co-regent king hands the kingdom back to its rightful Ruler.....his God and Father. The kingdom lasts forever, but Jesus’ capacity as king has a purpose and a time limit. As it says, when that is accomplished, he hands the rulership back to its rightful King, once the barrier of sin has been removed.


You see....you keep harping on with that one scripture that has been explained to you many times, but you have your fingers in your ears, unable to even hear it. Ask yourself why?
Jesus as the “only begotten son” of God was definitely in existence before any other creation...the Bible confirms this, (Colossians 1:15) but he has not existed as long as his Father. The relationship of ‘Father and son’ is what they call it themselves, so it is obvious that they wanted us to comprehend what that meant as we humans understand it. A Father always exists before his son. How do a father and son come into existence simultaneously? If these were two parts of the same God, then they would simply have names to confirm their equality.....no terms exist in the Bible that makes them both equal parts of a three part “godhead”. They have roles that overlap, but both are not Almighty God. As Isaiah 45:5 confirms, there is no other God but Yahweh....and Yahweh is “one”...not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

You have never been able to provide a direct statement from either God or his son that they are equal parts of a “godhead” with the holy spirit. There is no such word as “godhead” in the Bible....trinitarians made it up by mistranslating a word that did not mean that at all.
Being “divine” does not make one “deity”.

I’m sure this will all fall on deaf ears for yourself and other like-minded people, but hopefully the readers here will evaluate the Bible’s own clear explanation and come to the correct conclusion.

YOU WROTE "You see....you keep harping on with that one scripture that has been explained to you many times", yet you are incapable of spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) explaining Jesus words recorded in John 8:58. You claim that Jesus was created with a beginning in direct denial of Jesus declaring that He is everlasting - as the next paragraph clearly spiritually, accurately, and truthfully shows.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

YOU WROTE of divine, deity, and godhead.

The word "godhead" is not in the Bible as properly translated, and I do not use that to describe YHWH God, so your bellyaching about that word is pointless.

Properly in linguistics, being divine means to be of deity.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) truthfully (John 14:6) indicates that Jesus is YHWH God.

When you prognosticate that Jesus was "a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods), so you are in sin (Exodus 20:3).

The same applies whether you say Jesus was a divine or a deity because if you change the word God to Deity at the end of John 1:1, then all occurrences of God in John 1:1 can be changed to Deity thusly:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Deity, and the Word was Deity" (John 1:1).

Deity equals God equals Theos.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

You and @Aunty Jane deny that Jesus will reign forever as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

@Aunty Jane, your "like" of keiw's post places you in accord with keiw thus you inherit the ramifications listed below about keiw's deceptions.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

The kingdom wont end. Jehovah becomes king of that kingdom when Jesus hands it back. In the Lords prayer Jesus assures you the kingdom belongs to the Father. Jesus was appointed as king for 1000 years( Rev 20:6)--then he must hand it back.
If Jesus were one as you think, he already would have been king, cant you understand that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

That is your assumption.....Jesus was answering a question about his age....telling the Jews he was in existence before Abraham was born. That is it. Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus came from heaven, so he clearly existed as God’s “firstborn” who is the “image “ of his invisible Father, who is also his God. (Colossians 1:15-17) So right there is the truth. Jesus existed before Abraham as the “Logos” (one who speaks God’s words) but nowhere does scripture ever tell us that the pre-human Jesus was Almighty God. The Jews had no such belief and would never have accepted a Messiah who claimed to be God incarnate. That would have been blasphemous. You demonstrate no understanding about who Jesus was from the Jewish point of view. Jesus’ audience was exclusively Jewish. They had to understand his teachings from their own scripture.

YOU WROTE of divine, deity, and godhead.

The word "godhead" is not in the Bible as properly translated, and I do not use that to describe YHWH God, so your bellyaching about that word is pointless.

Properly in linguistics, being divine means to be of deity.

The Greek “theos” means a god or god-like one. Look it up in a concordance.

John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” one is “ho theos” (the God Yahweh) and the other is just “theos” which can be any divine one or one with divine authority. “The Word” is not said to be “ho theos” But was “with” “ho theos”, “in the beginning”. If Jesus was God he had no “beginning”, but Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14) He is God’s “firstborn” which describes his life in heaven as the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. All things came into existence “through” him, but not from him. (John 1:3)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) truthfully (John 14:6) indicates that Jesus is YHWH God.

And if you say it often enough, it must be true? .....Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” because of their divine authority. Were these Judges part of God too? (John 10:31-36)
Even when Jesus returned to heaven, he still called his Father “my God”. (Revelation 3:12) Does God have a God even in heaven? Who worships who? There is more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.

When you prognosticate that Jesus was "a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods), so you are in sin (Exodus 20:3).

The trinity has three gods.....all equal and co-eternal.....whereas the Bible presents Jesus as the son of a loving Father who was willing to offer his life to redeem mankind.
Jesus had to die to pay that debt....if he was God, he was immortal and could not die. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God.

The same applies whether you say Jesus was a divine or a deity because if you change the word God to Deity at the end of John 1:1, then all occurrences of God in John 1:1 can be changed to Deity thusly:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Deity, and the Word was Deity" (John 1:1).

Deity equals God equals Theos.

What does “theos” mean according to original word concordance reference.
It does not mean Yahweh.....in Greek the multitude of their gods all had names to differentiate them. The Jews had stopped uttering the divine name and had substituted his titles in all the places in their scripture where the divine name appeared. To differentiate this one God of the Jews, (who at that time had no name) the only way to do that was to use the definite article (the...”ho”) When you read John 1:1 in a Greek to English Interlinear you will see that Yahweh was called “ho theos” whereas Jesus (the Word) was just called “theos” or “a god or divine” personage. The word “theos” also applies to those with divine authority....whereas the definite article “ho” describes only Yahweh. Jesus is never once called “ho theos”. Divinity does not only mean deity.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Do you see how much assertion you use to demonstrate the veracity of what you believe?
“Immanuel” is a prophetic name meaning that God would be “with” his people by means of the son that would be born as Savior and redeemer.
Acts ch 7 describes what happened with Moses who told the Israelites that God would raise up a prophet like himself....
Acts 7:37-39...
“This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘ God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen.’ This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him at length on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to you. Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him; on the contrary they rejected him and turned back to Egypt in their hearts”. (NASB)

Moses said that God was going to raise up a prophet like himself......that one proved to be Jesus.
How was God “with” Israel in the days when Moses was the mediator of the old covenant? He was “with” his people by means of those who represented him.
Now how was God “with” his people in the days when Jesus was going to inaugurate a “new covenant” with them? In the very same way.

Your research and your assumptions are based on very superficial study, corrupted doctrines and false religious ideas which do not hold water when compared with what all that the scriptures tell us about the identity of the son of God.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you and I both know that Christ himself will adjudicate in this issue....those found to be failing to teach the truth but substituting lies, about himself and his relationship with his God and Father....will not fare well.

 

[Rich R]

That is your assumption.....Jesus was answering a question about his age....telling the Jews he was in existence before Abraham was born. That is it. Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus came from heaven, so he clearly existed as God’s “firstborn” who is the “image “ of his invisible Father, who is also his God. (Colossians 1:15-17) So right there is the truth. Jesus existed before Abraham as the “Logos” (one who speaks God’s words) but nowhere does scripture ever tell us that the pre-human Jesus was Almighty God. The Jews had no such belief and would never have accepted a Messiah who claimed to be God incarnate. That would have been blasphemous. You demonstrate no understanding about who Jesus was from the Jewish point of view. Jesus’ audience was exclusively Jewish. They had to understand his teachings from their own scripture.


The Greek “theos” means a god or god-like one. Look it up in a concordance.

John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” one is “ho theos” (the God Yahweh) and the other is just “theos” which can be any divine one or one with divine authority. “The Word” is not said to be “ho theos” But was “with” “ho theos”, “in the beginning”. If Jesus was God he had no “beginning”, but Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14) He is God’s “firstborn” which describes his life in heaven as the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. All things came into existence “through” him, but not from him. (John 1:3)


And if you say it often enough, it must be true? .....Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” because of their divine authority. Were these Judges part of God too? (John 10:31-36)
Even when Jesus returned to heaven, he still called his Father “my God”. (Revelation 3:12) Does God have a God even in heaven? Who worships who? There is more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.


The trinity has three gods.....all equal and co-eternal.....whereas the Bible presents Jesus as the son of a loving Father who was willing to offer his life to redeem mankind.
Jesus had to die to pay that debt....if he was God, he was immortal and could not die. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God.


What does “theos” mean according to original word concordance reference.
It does not mean Yahweh.....in Greek the multitude of their gods all had names to differentiate them. The Jews had stopped uttering the divine name and had substituted his titles in all the places in their scripture where the divine name appeared. To differentiate this one God of the Jews, (who at that time had no name) the only way to do that was to use the definite article (the...”ho”) When you read John 1:1 in a Greek to English Interlinear you will see that Yahweh was called “ho theos” whereas Jesus (the Word) was just called “theos” or “a god or divine” personage. The word “theos” also applies to those with divine authority....whereas the definite article “ho” describes only Yahweh. Jesus is never once called “ho theos”. Divinity does not only mean deity.


Do you see how much assertion you use to demonstrate the veracity of what you believe?
“Immanuel” is a prophetic name meaning that God would be “with” his people by means of the son that would be born as Savior and redeemer.
Acts ch 7 describes what happened with Moses who told the Israelites that God would raise up a prophet like himself....
Acts 7:37-39...
“This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘ God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen.’ This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him at length on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to you. Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him; on the contrary they rejected him and turned back to Egypt in their hearts”. (NASB)

Moses said that God was going to raise up a prophet like himself......that one proved to be Jesus.
How was God “with” Israel in the days when Moses was the mediator of the old covenant? He was “with” his people by means of those who represented him.
Now how was God “with” his people in the days when Jesus was going to inaugurate a “new covenant” with them? In the very same way.

Your research and your assumptions are based on very superficial study, corrupted doctrines and false religious ideas which do not hold water when compared with what all that the scriptures tell us about the identity of the son of God.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you and I both know that Christ himself will adjudicate in this issue....those found to be failing to teach the truth but substituting lies, about himself and his relationship with his God and Father....will not fare well.

All good points.

Another relevant aspect is agency. In the Ancient Near East an agent was considered virtualy identical to the one who sent him. Pharaoh gave Joseph complete authority over Egypt. Joseph's words were as good as Pharaoh's. The only thing Joseph did not have was Pharaoh's throne.

Gen 41:40,

Thou (Joseph) shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
​

Remember, Joseph was a type of Christ.

Then there's this,

1Cor 15:28,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
​

One "part" of God subject to another "part" part of God????? What????

 

[Pierac]

Not at all. Paul says Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So you're doing here the very thing you're railing against.


Absolutely. So do you think Jesus is also made/created in God's image? Or do you believe what Paul actually says in Colossians 1, that He is the image of the invisible God?

Grace and peace to you, Paul.

The Colossians Hymn

In so far as it is used by the "traditionalists" to justify belief in a personally preexistent Christ, the passage in Colossians 1:15-19 ranks right up there with John 1 and Philippians 2. It is easy to see how this conclusion is reached, when the passages read in the gridlock of "orthodoxy."

Paul wrote:

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

We must carefully examine both the overall context and the particular phrases before rushing to the conclusion that the apostle is teaching that Jesus the son of God created the heavens and the earth, and that he is therefore coequal with God the Father, the second member of the Trinity.

Everything we have looked at so far would indicate that Paul has not suddenly done a back flip from his clearly stated belief that there is "one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus the Messiah" (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5-6, etc.).

The overall context must be clearly borne in mind. Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13). Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus. He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).

Kuschel in his book "Born Before All Time? p.331. Says, "the direct context of the Colossians hymn is itself of an eschatological kind and represents the ‘shift of the ages.’" G.E. Ladd in his book A Theology of the New Testament, p.323. states. “In other words, ‘the New Testament does not merely picture the resurrection of Jesus as the resurrection of a corpse, but as the emergence within time and space of a new order of life.’"

When the Father raised Jesus to life again it was not only an isolated historical event. It was more importantly the injection into history of the beginning of "the eschatological resurrection."

Eternal life-the life of the ages to come-is guaranteed in Christ who is "the first fruits" of all who will follow. (1Cor.15:23). Jesus is the first of a whole crop of new-life first to come! A new order of things now exist. A new age in prospect has already begun. If "anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things [have] passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

To be baptized into Christ is to already in prospect be "in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom.6:5). We are already "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). Because Christ has been raised to the glory of the Father, we are already in promise "glorified" (Rom. 8:30). We have
been transferred into "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col. 1:13).

It is this tectonic shift in the ages that is the context of this hymn of praise. We are looking at a whole new order of things. The waves of this continental shift from the resurrection of Christ are rolling towards the distant shoreline of the coming Kingdom of God with tsunami-like power.

Old authorities and structures have been rattled, for Christ is now the head of God's of new creation. A new dynasty in God universe has been inaugurated. This is the cosmological contexts of the individual phrases we will now examine.

There is no Trinity in Colossians,
Paul

 

[Pierac]

The beggar in John 9 claims not perpetual existence prior to Abraham; on the other hand, Lord Jesus does.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ declares His perpetual existence prior to Abraham with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Now it's time to dispel with your delusion about Greek.

In Greek, the complete John 8:58 reads:

Εἴπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι.

IN JOHN 8:58, "ἐγώ εἰμι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

In the Septuagint, the complete Exodus 3:14 reads:

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν µε πρὸς ὑµᾶς.

IN EXODUS 3:14, "Ἐγώ εἰµι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

The definitions for these two Greek words:

Strong's Greek: 1473. ἐγώ (egó) -- I (only expressed when emphatic)

Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am

The "Ἐγώ εἰµι" in Exodus 3:14 matches the "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 8:58.

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the One" (Exodus 3:14, Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν" in Septuagint), YHWH God.

The context of Jesus' words are absolutely Spiritually clear that He is YHWH God, and these posts illuminate this Truth (John 14:6) scripturally "the John 8:58 without mentioning Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, "the John 8:58 including Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, and "the Exodus 3:14 lexical and scriptural implication of 'I AM' compared to 'I will be' post" in this thread,

"My Lord and my God" testified the Apostle Thomas to Jesus Christ (John 20:28), so Apostolic teaching is that Jesus Christ is YHWH God.

Yet you reject what Jesus is teaching/telling you... What is Jesus and Peter and Paul teaching you... here???

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Paul is teaching you something here.... 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!


Jesus is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God!

You can do better...
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

In so far as it is used by the "traditionalists" to justify belief in a personally preexistent Christ, the passage in Colossians 1:15-19 ranks right up there with John 1 and Philippians 2.

LOL! Yes, you might as well go ahead and cite the whole Council of God, Pierac. It's all about Jesus. As the writer of Hebrews says:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power." (Hebrews 1:1-3)

Even Jesus said that, and it was said about Him, in multiple places, John 5:46, Luke 16:29-31, and Luke 24:27,44, to be specific.

It is easy to see how this conclusion is reached...

It should be, I agree. No "acrobatics" needed. Just the Holy Spirit, which of course is a really big "just"...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Pierac]

You bear false witness about me when you wrote "You have no idea of the culture you speak", so you sin by your violation of "You shall not bear false witness" (Exodus 20:16)!

Now, Pierac, see that I am not relating the word elohim to "angels, judges, or even a human being" because I wrote about Genesis 1:26 which contains the words "God", "Us", and "Our" in the post to which you replied - and the relevant three paragraphs are quoted here:

It is written "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1); therefore, the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 refers to YHWH God alone, not "angels, judges, or even a human being".

You are confusing so much about who God is!

Since you unceremoniously injected yourself into @Keiw and my correspondence about Genesis 1:26 taking up keiw's deception, then you are effectively assuming keiw's position with keiw's prior writings on this matter, so you'll see quotes of keiw that are now assigned to you. You entered yourself as a proxy of sorts for keiw.

Now, back to your evil writing.

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

Now, this brings us to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

The Hebrew word Elohim is the English word God in Genesis 1:26.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The Hebrew word Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

Perhaps you should read it again....

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

MAKE NOTE.... When the Jewish translators whom translated their own Bible so Greek speaking Jews would know the truth... hundreds of years before Jesus was born... Put your view to rest!!!

It is you whom Lie about both scripture and the history of scripture as it is written!!!
Paul

 

[Pierac]

LOL! Yes, you might as well go ahead and cite the whole Council of God, Pierac. It's all about Jesus. As the writer of Hebrews says:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power." (Hebrews 1:1-3)

Even Jesus said that, and it was said about Him, in multiple places, John 5:46, Luke 16:29-31, and Luke 24:27,44, to be specific.


It should be, I agree. No "acrobatics" needed. Just the Holy Spirit, which of course is a really big "just"...

Grace and peace to you.

Yet... Jeus knew the creator of the universe...

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God… "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3).

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

But your theology has Jesus confused in these verses... Your traditions of men have Jesus doing all the creating... but it will not help you when Jesus says differently... Mat 19:4 and Mark 13:19

You speak as a spiritual child, just in the very beginning of knowing the Christ of God!
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus knew the creator of the universe...

Yes, certainly, because "He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:2-4) Certainly He knew the Creator, because He, along with the Father and the Spirit, is Him. They had perfect fellowship from all eternity (past and future).

You speak as a spiritual child, just in the very beginning of knowing the Christ of God!

You're... welcome to your opinion. But I do like that description, in the sense that all of us who know Him are at the beginning of knowing Him, in a very real sense, and yes, with a childlike faith. Thank God ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ for that. All glory and praise and blessing and honor be unto Him.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Pierac]

Yes, certainly, because "He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:2-4) Certainly He knew the Creator, because He, along with the Father and the Spirit, is Him. They had perfect fellowship from all eternity (past and future).


You're... welcome to your opinion. But I do like that description, in the sense that all of us who know Him are at the beginning of knowing Him, in a very real sense, and yes, with a childlike faith. Thank God ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ for that. All glory and praise and blessing and honor be unto Him.

Grace and peace to you.

Again spoken as a Child.... "He was in the beginning with God" Sorry PinSeeker but God has no beginning!!! Let that sink in!!!

Christ the First-born of all the creation

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my
salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.
To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

PinSeeker... God has no beginning... So do the Jesus math and... Study harder!!!
Paul

 

[Kermos]

The kingdom wont end. Jehovah becomes king of that kingdom when Jesus hands it back. In the Lords prayer Jesus assures you the kingdom belongs to the Father. Jesus was appointed as king for 1000 years( Rev 20:6)--then he must hand it back.
If Jesus were one as you think, he already would have been king, cant you understand that.

Gabriel declares Jesus will reign in the kingdom of God forever with "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Jesus is King (Matthew 27:11, John 18:36).

The Bible does not state that the one thousand years is Jesus' only reign nor excludes the 1,000 years as part of a larger reign for Jesus.

You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

God has me address your mention of Jesus giving an example of prayer further down in this post - there is context in this post leading up to the address.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Jesus, truly Man, gives an example of prayer with "Pray, then, in this way ‘Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.'" (Matthew 6:9-10), and Jesus, truly God, says "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36); therefore, Jesus being One with the Father legitimately expresses in both instances that Lord Jesus is King forever in the Kingdom of God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[keithr]

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation;

It sounds like you don't understand how Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students came up with the year 1914. Obviously the year 1914 does not appear in the Bible, nor is any other year mentioned using our dating system. From Wikipedia:

This calendar era is based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus, AD counting years from the start of this epoch and BC denoting years before the start of the era. There is no year zero in this scheme; thus the year AD 1 immediately follows the year 1 BC. This dating system was devised in 525 by Dionysius Exiguus of Scythia Minor, but was not widely used until the 9th century.​

The 1914 date was based on study of prophecies, which contain events and time periods between them. In a similar manner the prohecies of the coming of the Messiah can be shown to be exact to the year and even to the day of Jesus' baptism (the Jews were expecting the Messiah to arrive, but they didn't recognise Jesus as the Messiah). So the year 1914 comes from calculations based on Bible prophecies, and if you want to denounce it as incorrect then you need to delve more deeply into Bible study. Neither the Bible Students nor the Jehovah's Witnesses added 1914 to the Book of Revelation - you're wrong to accuse them of that.

 

[Keiw]

Gabriel declares Jesus will reign in the kingdom of God forever with "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Jesus is King (Matthew 27:11, John 18:36).

The Bible does not state that the one thousand years is Jesus' only reign nor excludes the 1,000 years as part of a larger reign for Jesus.

You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33.

God has me address your mention of Jesus giving an example of prayer further down in this post - there is context in this post leading up to the address.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Jesus, truly Man, gives an example of prayer with "Pray, then, in this way ‘Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.'" (Matthew 6:9-10), and Jesus, truly God, says "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36); therefore, Jesus being One with the Father legitimately expresses in both instances that Lord Jesus is King forever in the Kingdom of God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

In Ezekial the house of Jacob of future prophecy was talking about the 144,000--Jesus being the Archangel Michael will rule over them forever. But fact is he hands the kingdom back to its rightful owner-YHWH(Jehovah) he alone is king of eternity.

 

[Kermos]

That is your assumption.....Jesus was answering a question about his age....telling the Jews he was in existence before Abraham was born. That is it. Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus came from heaven, so he clearly existed as God’s “firstborn” who is the “image “ of his invisible Father, who is also his God. (Colossians 1:15-17) So right there is the truth. Jesus existed before Abraham as the “Logos” (one who speaks God’s words) but nowhere does scripture ever tell us that the pre-human Jesus was Almighty God. The Jews had no such belief and would never have accepted a Messiah who claimed to be God incarnate. That would have been blasphemous. You demonstrate no understanding about who Jesus was from the Jewish point of view. Jesus’ audience was exclusively Jewish. They had to understand his teachings from their own scripture.


The Greek “theos” means a god or god-like one. Look it up in a concordance.

John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” one is “ho theos” (the God Yahweh) and the other is just “theos” which can be any divine one or one with divine authority. “The Word” is not said to be “ho theos” But was “with” “ho theos”, “in the beginning”. If Jesus was God he had no “beginning”, but Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14) He is God’s “firstborn” which describes his life in heaven as the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. All things came into existence “through” him, but not from him. (John 1:3)


And if you say it often enough, it must be true? .....Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” because of their divine authority. Were these Judges part of God too? (John 10:31-36)
Even when Jesus returned to heaven, he still called his Father “my God”. (Revelation 3:12) Does God have a God even in heaven? Who worships who? There is more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.


The trinity has three gods.....all equal and co-eternal.....whereas the Bible presents Jesus as the son of a loving Father who was willing to offer his life to redeem mankind.
Jesus had to die to pay that debt....if he was God, he was immortal and could not die. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God.


What does “theos” mean according to original word concordance reference.
It does not mean Yahweh.....in Greek the multitude of their gods all had names to differentiate them. The Jews had stopped uttering the divine name and had substituted his titles in all the places in their scripture where the divine name appeared. To differentiate this one God of the Jews, (who at that time had no name) the only way to do that was to use the definite article (the...”ho”) When you read John 1:1 in a Greek to English Interlinear you will see that Yahweh was called “ho theos” whereas Jesus (the Word) was just called “theos” or “a god or divine” personage. The word “theos” also applies to those with divine authority....whereas the definite article “ho” describes only Yahweh. Jesus is never once called “ho theos”. Divinity does not only mean deity.


Do you see how much assertion you use to demonstrate the veracity of what you believe?
“Immanuel” is a prophetic name meaning that God would be “with” his people by means of the son that would be born as Savior and redeemer.
Acts ch 7 describes what happened with Moses who told the Israelites that God would raise up a prophet like himself....
Acts 7:37-39...
“This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘ God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen.’ This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him at length on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to you. Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him; on the contrary they rejected him and turned back to Egypt in their hearts”. (NASB)

Moses said that God was going to raise up a prophet like himself......that one proved to be Jesus.
How was God “with” Israel in the days when Moses was the mediator of the old covenant? He was “with” his people by means of those who represented him.
Now how was God “with” his people in the days when Jesus was going to inaugurate a “new covenant” with them? In the very same way.

Your research and your assumptions are based on very superficial study, corrupted doctrines and false religious ideas which do not hold water when compared with what all that the scriptures tell us about the identity of the son of God.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you and I both know that Christ himself will adjudicate in this issue....those found to be failing to teach the truth but substituting lies, about himself and his relationship with his God and Father....will not fare well.

You are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context, so you construct an idol that is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).