A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Definition of insanity...repeating the same thing over and over but expecting a different result....

 

[David in NJ]

Definition of insanity...repeating the same thing over and over but expecting a different result....

Maybe it's time you heed the Word of Truth.
The Scripture cannot lie.
Here in Isaiah ch43 God declares who HE IS = the SAME God in Revelation

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Rev 1:8-11
Behold, He/JESUS is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,
“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”

And behold, I/JESUS am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I/JESUS am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Rev 22:12-13

 

[keithr]

Maybe it's time you heed the Word of Truth.
The Scripture cannot lie.

And behold, I/JESUS am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I/JESUS am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Rev 22:12-13

From the same chapter, Revelation 22:3-5 (WEB):

(3) There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will serve him.
(4) They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(5) There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever.​

Who do you think the "they" is referring to in "They will reign forever and ever"?

Some other verses to consider:

Revelation 11:15 (WEB):

The seventh angel sounded, and great voices in heaven followed, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ. He will reign forever and ever!”​

Revelation 3:21 (WEB):

He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.​

2 Timothy 2:12 (WEB):

If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.​

 

[Kermos]

Sorry, too lazy to pull up my own data so just googled it! Pretty much EVERY bible scholar of all religions admit this verse was added by men!!!

Matthew 28:19 is quoted by Christians as evidence for the Trinity. However it is an interpolation into the Text. Respected Bible scholars say that the formula was an insertion, and that it originally was “Go and make disciples of all nations in my name.” Matthew 28:19 is the only verse in the entire New Testament with the “Trinity” formula.” All other verses point to baptism being performed in the Name of Jesus alone. Take for example Apostle Peter in Acts. He has always baptised in the name of Jesus. See the following verses:

Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:16 – For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 – So Peter ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah. Then they asked him to stay there for several days.

If Matthew 28:19 is true, genuine and Jesus did command his disciples to baptize ”in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Why would Peter go against Jesus command and Baptize only in His name? Well the answer lies in the Text. The formula of the “Father Son and Holy Spirit” is not part of the original text of Matthew. How do we know it is not part of Text? Well let us turn to the respected Scholars.

Eusebius (260 – 339 CE) was a Roman Christian historian and is regarded as a well learned Christian scholar. He became the Bishop of Caesarea in 314 CE. He quotes many verses in his works, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. 17 times in his works prior to Nicaea, Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 as “Go and make disciples of all nations in my name” without mentioning the Trinity baptism formula.

1. George H. Gilbert Quotes Mr Conybeare and says the following on Matthew 28:19:

“There is important external evidence against the existence of this formula in manuscripts current before the time of Eusebius, and various recent writers have urge that the practice of baptism in Acts and Epistles of Paul is utterly incompatible with the view that Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (E.g., Martineau, The Seat of Authority in religion, page 515; Percy Gardener, Exploratio Evangilica, page 445; Sabatier, Religions of Authority and Religion of Spirit, page 52; Harnack, History of Dogma Volume 1, 79, note).”

George H. Gilbert then says:

“It is obvious that the location of this word between ‘Father’ and ‘Holy Spirit’ is virtually a claim that the Son stands on the same level with them. The position takes him up, as it were, into the very center of the Deity. But to this claim the words of Jesus in our oldest sources stand opposed. Unique and divine as is their claim regarding the character of the Master a claim like that of the Baptismal formula, but in the clearest, most unambiguous terms assert what is diametrically opposed to the implication of that passage. They assert manhood; they deny attributes of deity (e.g., omniscience and absolute goodness). Therefore it is impossible to hold that the Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels can have spoken the words of the Baptismal formula” [1]

2. James Moffatt’s NT Translation in his footnote (page 64) says the following words:

“….it may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5….”

David, Please don't quote false scripture written by men and added to your translation many years after the Greek and other text were complete... It is poor scholarship on your part! In fact pretty much shows how uninformed you are about the issues at hand! I mean, really... Did you really not know this or did you choose to ignore the facts? Not sure which is worst?

Please study harder,
Paul

We should compare the writing of the 4th-century Historian Eusebius to your heart's treasure that you, Pierac, posted.

“We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead. And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,'” (Eusebius’ Letter to the Church in Caesarea).

Behold, Eusebius' letter contains something extremely similar to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

It matters not "when" Eusebius wrote "baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", rather it is the fact that Eusebius did write it, and you deceptively omitted it!

Let's regress back a couple of centuries, to the 2nd-century writing of Justin Martyr's student, Tatian, who produced a harmony of the four Gospels into one narrative called the Diatessaron which contains the words of Matthew 28:19-20, including "baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (c. 160–175 AD).

It is possible that Eusebius simply felt free to paraphrase it at times when his purpose did not require a full citation - AFTER ALL, 200 YEARS-ISH BEFORE EUSEBIUS, TATIAN HAS IT IN THE DIATESSARON.

Wow, Eusebius had access to these words of Jesus "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19)!

Most importantly and truthfully, the Greek manuscripts of Biblical texts evidence that Matthew 28:19 contains these indisputable, wonderful, righteous, and loving words of Lord Jesus "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20).

@Aunty Jane, you are again proven delusional regarding your contrivance that people before the year 500 did not know about the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit being One True God.

@David in NJ, Pierac really puts much laborious work into attempting to deceive.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

From the same chapter, Revelation 22:3-5 (WEB):

(3) There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will serve him.
(4) They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(5) There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever.​

Who do you think the "they" is referring to in "They will reign forever and ever"?

Some other verses to consider:

Revelation 11:15 (WEB):

The seventh angel sounded, and great voices in heaven followed, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ. He will reign forever and ever!”​

Revelation 3:21 (WEB):

He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.​

2 Timothy 2:12 (WEB):

If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.​

Because THEY are the THEY from Genesis and Exodus = ELOHIM/YHWH Abraham Isaac Jacob = Father Son Holy Spirit

Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness = 3

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” God also told Moses,
“Say to the Israelites,
‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the Elohim/Yahweh Abraham, the Elohim/Yahweh Isaac, and the Elohim/Yaweh Jacob—has sent me to you.’(3)
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

These THREE, Father Son Holy Spirit are ECHAD and exactly Who the Gospels reveal to us.

 

[keithr]

Because THEY are the THEY from Genesis and Exodus = ELOHIM/YHWH Abraham Isaac Jacob = Father Son Holy Spirit

How do you deduce that from:

(3) There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will serve him.
(4) They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(5) There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever.​

The passage refers to God, the Lamb and 'his servants'. The "They" must be referring to either:

(a) God and the Lamb, i.e. God (YHVH) and Jesus.
(b) God and his servants.
(c) The Lamb and his servants.
(d) God, the Lamb and his servants.​

 

[David in NJ]

How do you deduce that from:

(3) There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will serve him.
(4) They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(5) There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever.​

The passage refers to God, the Lamb and 'his servants'. The "They" must be referring to either:

(a) God and the Lamb, i.e. God (YHVH) and Jesus.
(b) God and his servants.
(c) The Lamb and his servants.
(d) God, the Lamb and his servants.​

Hello keithr,

The throne (Singular = One Single Throne) God/Elohim and the Lamb are ECHAD(Unified One) "in the Throne".

'They' are the servants, who will see His face (1 Corinthians ch 12-15) and will serve Him(Elohim/Lamb) His Name will be upon my forehead along with the other servants.

You left out this Most Important verse:
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple = ONE Singular Temple
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,
for the glory of God illuminated it and The Lamb is its light = ONE SINGLE Source of Illumination/Light = God and Lamb

 

[keithr]

The throne (Singular = One Single Throne) God/Elohim and the Lamb are ECHAD(Unified One) "in the Throne".

So it's referring to God (all of God, not just a part of God) and the Lamb (Jesus). That's two separate beings - God and God's son Jesus.

'They' are the servants, who will see His face (1 Corinthians ch 12-15) and will serve Him(Elohim/Lamb) His Name will be upon my forehead along with the other servants.

How do you find servants in 1 Corinthians chapters 12-15? I only see references to members of the body of Christ (the Church) and to every human being (the dead). The body of Christ are (or will be) adopted sons of God, part of God's household/family - they will not be servants.

You left out this Most Important verse:
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple = ONE Singular Temple

We were referring to Revelation 22, so of course I left out a verse from another chapter! You failed to give the reference - its Revelation 21:22. It again refers to Almighty God and to the Lamb (Jesus). We too are to become stones in that temple, 1 Peter 2:5 (WEB):

(5) You also, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.​

What has no temple in it? It's the new Jerusalem that comes down from God. And what is that? It's the church, the bride of Christ. Revelation 21:9-10 (WEB):

(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.”
(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,​

The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,
for the glory of God illuminated it and The Lamb is its light = ONE SINGLE Source of Illumination/Light = God and Lamb

"God and the Lamb" is not a single source! God's glory (the source of light) illumunates the city, through the Lamb (Jesus) - most translations say "its lamp is the Lamb".

 

[David in NJ]

So it's referring to God (all of God, not just a part of God) and the Lamb (Jesus). That's two separate beings - God and God's son Jesus.


How do you find servants in 1 Corinthians chapters 12-15? I only see references to members of the body of Christ (the Church) and to every human being (the dead). The body of Christ are (or will be) adopted sons of God, part of God's household/family - they will not be servants.


We were referring to Revelation 22, so of course I left out a verse from another chapter! You failed to give the reference - its Revelation 21:22. It again refers to Almighty God and to the Lamb (Jesus). We too are to become stones in that temple, 1 Peter 2:5 (WEB):

(5) You also, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.​

What has no temple in it? It's the new Jerusalem that comes down from God. And what is that? It's the church, the bride of Christ. Revelation 21:9-10 (WEB):

(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.”
(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,​

"God and the Lamb" is not a single source! God's glory (the source of light) illumunates the city, through the Lamb (Jesus) - most translations say "its lamp is the Lamb".

When I said: "Single source" i am referring to Elohim Father Son and Holy Spirit as ECHAD = which is a Unified One.

So when I said: "ONE Source it is the SAME as Elohim saying HE is ONE/Echad Elohim:

"That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,

Nor shall there be after Me.

I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

JESUS says "I and My Father are ONE"

We see this from Genesis to Revelation

 

[Kermos]

Definition of insanity...repeating the same thing over and over but expecting a different result....

Definition of fool...disbeliever in the Word of God.

Thus says the Word of God "My Word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire" (Isaiah 55:11).

Thus says the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

The Word of God, Lord Jesus, (John 1:1, John 1:14) declares that He is everlasting in eternity past (John 8:58).

The fool declares that Jesus is not everlasting in eternity past. The fool treats the Word of God as folly such as conveying the Word of God returns void.

You and @keithr (by your like of her post) declare that Jesus is not everlasting in eternity past. You and @keithr treat the Word of God as folly such as conveying the Word of God returns void.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

God's Name has never left the Scripture even in the changing of YHWH to Elohim or God.

Can you grasp this or no?

YHWH= Jehovah= Gods personal name--Titles and words that carry various meanings are not Gods personal name.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Definition of fool...disbeliever in the Word of God.

Thus says the Word of God "My Word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire" (Isaiah 55:11).

Thus says the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

The Word of God, Lord Jesus, (John 1:1, John 1:14) declares that He is everlasting in eternity past (John 8:58).

The fool declares that Jesus is not everlasting in eternity past. The fool treats the Word of God as folly such as conveying the Word of God returns void.

You and @keithr (by your like of her post) declare that Jesus is not everlasting in eternity past. You and @keithr treat the Word of God as folly such as conveying the Word of God returns void.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

You sound threatened....repeating mindlessly the same misinterpreted scripture....but it’s not up to me to convince you....only God can do that.
You are free to believe whatever you wish....but the one thing you and other trinitarians can never say, is that ‘nobody told you or tried to correct you’.....the trinity is your belief ‘to have and to hold till death do you part’......We will all live or die by what we choose as our truth.

The echo chamber is old...You cannot bully people with insults, trying to force them to accept what is not true for them. The trinity will always be a blasphemy to me and to those who see that Jesus never once claimed to be anything but “the son of God”. There is no “God the Son”....and no “God the Holy Spirit” as these are a Catholic invention. The introduction of the concept was gradual and like ‘the frog in the pot’, it slowly gained acceptance enough to be introduced as official “church” doctrine, but not until the fourth century. Does “the church” get to change the identity of Yahweh hundreds of years after the death of Christ? You can believe that if you wish.....I can’t.

No one can come to the Son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) There is only one God and one “only begotten son”.....two entirely separate and distinct entities, one created, the other uncreated and infinite. The son had a beginning...the Father did not.
(Revelation 3:14; John 17:3; Colossians 1:15-17; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Your beliefs are your choice.....my beliefs are mine. Jesus will tell us soon enough who has the truth and who does not.

 

[Keiw]

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible. The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

You do not know who YHWH is - and this is clearly evidenced via scripture in the post to which you replied.

By God's grace for God's glory Jesus, being YHWH God, opened my heart to Himself more than a decade ago.


The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Jesus gives you truth--John 20:17, Rev 3:12, John 4:22-24

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

Gods master worker= the one whom God created all other things through-Prov 8, he tells you he was created. He tells you there as well you must listen to him--Who did God send for us to listen to= the speaker at Prov 8 a created being.= the firstborn of all creation-Coll 1:15--Gods image, not God.

 

[David in NJ]

YHWH= Jehovah= Gods personal name--Titles and words that carry various meanings are not Gods personal name.

Exodus 3:14-16

Then Moses asked Elohim, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.

IAM or IAM WHO IAM is a Title and Description of His Eternal Being

His Name is:
“Say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, Elohim of your fathers— Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Isaac, Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

For I am Yahweh your Elohim,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

You are My witnesses,” says the Yahweh,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no el(god/singular) formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am Yahweh,
And besides Me there is no Savior.

Yeshua/Jesus is Yahweh

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"

Jesus said to them: "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

 

[Kermos]

You sound threatened....repeating mindlessly the same misinterpreted scripture....but it’s not up to me to convince you....only God can do that.
You are free to believe whatever you wish....but the one thing you and other trinitarians can never say, is that ‘nobody told you or tried to correct you’.....the trinity is your belief ‘to have and to hold till death do you part’......We will all live or die by what we choose as our truth.

The echo chamber is old...You cannot bully people with insults, trying to force them to accept what is not true for them. The trinity will always be a blasphemy to me and to those who see that Jesus never once claimed to be anything but “the son of God”. There is no “God the Son”....and no “God the Holy Spirit” as these are a Catholic invention. The introduction of the concept was gradual and like ‘the frog in the pot’, it slowly gained acceptance enough to be introduced as official “church” doctrine, but not until the fourth century. Does “the church” get to change the identity of Yahweh hundreds of years after the death of Christ? You can believe that if you wish.....I can’t.

No one can come to the Son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) There is only one God and one “only begotten son”.....two entirely separate and distinct entities, one created, the other uncreated and infinite. The son had a beginning...the Father did not.
(Revelation 3:14; John 17:3; Colossians 1:15-17; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Your beliefs are your choice.....my beliefs are mine. Jesus will tell us soon enough who has the truth and who does not.

You are continuing with your foolish folly.

I proclaim Truth (John 14:6) to you.

YOU CANNOT STATE A TIME WHEN JESUS WAS CREATED.

You are severely confused about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

YOU CANNOT PROVIDE A SCRIPTURE THAT STATES JESUS WAS CREATED.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Gods master worker= the one whom God created all other things through-Prov 8, he tells you he was created. He tells you there as well you must listen to him--Who did God send for us to listen to= the speaker at Prov 8 a created being.= the firstborn of all creation-Coll 1:15--Gods image, not God.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:25.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT COLOSSIANS 1:15

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Jesus gives you truth--John 20:17, Rev 3:12, John 4:22-24

Jesus gives me Truth (John 14:6), and Jesus gives the following.

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible. The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

The Russellians are literary fools in an incapable state to Truthfully (John 14:6) and Spiritually discern grammar in the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14); moreover, the Russellians (Watchtower Society people and similar types) prove their linguistic deceptions about the Christ in their writings, and the following items display their wickedly broken translation efforts and evil interpretations of scripture

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)


@keithr

Your mouth and fingertips reveal the treasure of your heart demoting Jesus to a mere man by way of your illegitimate linguistics (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #635 with post #636 in this thread) - you (1) YOU disassociate the act of the Holy Spirit of God in Luke 1:34-35, (2) YOU deny Jesus' equality with God makes Jesus God as witnessed by the Apostle John (John 5:18), and (3) YOU lie about the Apostle Thomas calling Jesus God because truthfully the Apostle John recorded that "Thomas answered and said to Him" with the Him being Jesus "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)!

You foolishly deny the context that Lord Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation recorded in John 8:31-5i at the outset (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #609 in this thread) - you quote the passage's conversation about "who God is" which contains a climactic conclusion then you proceeded to lie about the selfsame passage in your claim that the passage is not about "who God is".


@Pierac


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of aionas/ages/forever in Luke 1:33, but you linguistically fail (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #610 in this thread) - for truly the angel Gabriel emphasizes "forever" with "no end" within the proclamation "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of Elohim meaning God in Genesis 1:26, yet the plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God")
(as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #540 with referenced #457 in this thread) - for the Word of God clearly indicates God created man in the likeness of God, not angels, but truly the likeness of God alone in "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1), so truthfully Elohim in Genesis 1 26 indicates the plurality within YHWH God being the person of the Father and the person of the Word and the person of the Spirit (Isaiah 48:16).

You, the klutz of deception, attempt to redefine the Greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537, ἐκ, ek, from, from out of) to your delusional meaning "of" white you adamantly try to demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #620 in this thread), so your misunderstanding of the Greek language is public for all the see.

You, the klutz of deception, try to conceal that people prior to the Council of Nicea had copy of Matthew 28:19 that matches our current Biblical texts such as that contained in the NASB (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #705 in this thread), so your deception about Eusebius is exposed for the public to see.

You are a dangerously unreliable source.


The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).