A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

Exodus 3:14-16

Then Moses asked Elohim, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.

IAM or IAM WHO IAM is a Title and Description of His Eternal Being

His Name is:
“Say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, Elohim of your fathers— Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Isaac, Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

For I am Yahweh your Elohim,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

You are My witnesses,” says the Yahweh,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no el(god/singular) formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am Yahweh,
And besides Me there is no Savior.

Yeshua/Jesus is Yahweh

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"

Jesus said to them: "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

The Hebrew scholars say-- i will be what i will be-- is the correct translating of the statement that your bibles have- i am that i am--only trinity bibles have erred in that translating, to mislead.

 

[Keiw]

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:25.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT COLOSSIANS 1:15

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Twisting prov 8 does not change reality. Coll 1:15--the term- all creation-proves 100% its talking about the beginning creation. Your teachers twist that as well. You are being mislead in a house divided, it will not stand.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus gives me Truth (John 14:6), and Jesus gives the following.

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible. The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

You will find out different. Best to believe Jesus over errors.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

The Russellians are literary fools in an incapable state to Truthfully (John 14:6) and Spiritually discern grammar in the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14); moreover, the Russellians (Watchtower Society people and similar types) prove their linguistic deceptions about the Christ in their writings, and the following items display their wickedly broken translation efforts and evil interpretations of scripture

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)


@keithr

Your mouth and fingertips reveal the treasure of your heart demoting Jesus to a mere man by way of your illegitimate linguistics (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #635 with post #636 in this thread) - you (1) YOU disassociate the act of the Holy Spirit of God in Luke 1:34-35, (2) YOU deny Jesus' equality with God makes Jesus God as witnessed by the Apostle John (John 5:18), and (3) YOU lie about the Apostle Thomas calling Jesus God because truthfully the Apostle John recorded that "Thomas answered and said to Him" with the Him being Jesus "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)!

You foolishly deny the context that Lord Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation recorded in John 8:31-5i at the outset (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #609 in this thread) - you quote the passage's conversation about "who God is" which contains a climactic conclusion then you proceeded to lie about the selfsame passage in your claim that the passage is not about "who God is".


@Pierac


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of aionas/ages/forever in Luke 1:33, but you linguistically fail (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #610 in this thread) - for truly the angel Gabriel emphasizes "forever" with "no end" within the proclamation "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of Elohim meaning God in Genesis 1:26, yet the plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God")
(as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #540 with referenced #457 in this thread) - for the Word of God clearly indicates God created man in the likeness of God, not angels, but truly the likeness of God alone in "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1), so truthfully Elohim in Genesis 1 26 indicates the plurality within YHWH God being the person of the Father and the person of the Word and the person of the Spirit (Isaiah 48:16).

You, the klutz of deception, attempt to redefine the Greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537, ἐκ, ek, from, from out of) to your delusional meaning "of" white you adamantly try to demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #620 in this thread), so your misunderstanding of the Greek language is public for all the see.

You, the klutz of deception, try to conceal that people prior to the Council of Nicea had copy of Matthew 28:19 that matches our current Biblical texts such as that contained in the NASB (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #705 in this thread), so your deception about Eusebius is exposed for the public to see.

You are a dangerously unreliable source.


The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Even the Israelite religious leaders have been telling the trinity clergys, the God they teach is false, for centuries. Because its not the God Israel served all throughout history from Moses on up until today. And its fact--they have the true God=YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. Their problem is they reject the Messiah but they still know the true God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Maybe it's time you heed the Word of Truth.
The Scripture cannot lie.

Well that is one point on which we will agree....it’s not scripture that lies, but man’s interpretation that is the problem.

Here in Isaiah ch43 God declares who HE IS = the SAME God in Revelation

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

So what are you seeing in that verse that I am not?
Let’s examine it from the Jewish perspective since this is scripture written by Jews according to Jewish understanding.

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,”...who did the Jews recognize as “The Lord, the King of Israel”? It was Yahweh....there were no others.
Deuteronomy 6:4 was the Shema....
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one." דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:
You can see here from the Jewish Tanakh that Yahweh, "יְהֹוָ֥ה" is mentioned twice.

Continuing on in Isaiah....
“And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:” ....the word “AND” there is telling you what?
That there are two separate entities spoken about here.

Who was this “redeemer” according to Jewish belief?
It was their Messiah.....the one who was going to establish God’s Kingdom here on earth, and who was to come and re-establish God’s rule over mankind, which was lost in Eden. It was to feature the Jews as God’s chosen nation and they would “become a holy nation and a royal priesthood”. But because they could never quite live up to the laws laid down by their God, they lost their place in God’s arrangement.

“‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.”

Absolutely correct....besides this God Yahweh, who was identified as the beginner of all things and also the one who would bring his purpose to a successful conclusion, He could rightly carry that title.

Rev 1:8-11
Behold, He/JESUS is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,
“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”

I don’t know what translation you are using but there is no “He/Jesus” in that verse.

Taken as it was written we see that the Revelation was from God, given to Jesus, who then gave it to an angel to present it to John. (Revelation 1:1) Both God and his Christ are speaking throughout this chapter.

Let’s take it apart....in context and from another translation....
Revelation 1:4-8....
“John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.”

So we see that the Revelation is to John....whom the angel wished “grace and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come”...this describes the King of eternity Yahweh himself. But notice the word “AND” again meaning that God, AND the seven spirits AND Jesus are all spoken about separately.

“To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
This is definitely speaking about Jesus, and Yahweh is described as “his God and Father”....again, two distinctly separate individuals....one who is God and the other who is a “servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27)

“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.”
So Jesus will come as judge and “every eye will see him”.....have you ever wondered how that would be possible for everyone on a round earth to literally “see” Jesus at the same time? And how it would be possible for those who pierced him, who are now long dead, to do so? All the tribes of the earth will certainly know that something terrible is happening because they are “wailing” on account of him. Why are they wailing? Because they know that his judgment against them is not going to end well.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ESV)
Who alone is described by the titles "The Lord God" and the "Almighty" in the scriptures?
It is Yahweh...never Jesus.

Revelation 22:12-13....
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Again there is no "I/Jesus" in that verse or the one that follows.

So what is the reward that Jesus is talking about? Who rewarded him and why? Does God need to reward himself?
Revelation 4:8 speaks of Yahweh as 'coming', which he does representatively through Christ.
The judgment he renders is from his God, not himself.

Additionally, the term “the First [pro’tos, not alpha] and the Last [e’skha·tos, not omega]” occurs at Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 2:8. In these verses, the context shows that the one referred to died and later returned to life. Thus, these verses cannot refer to God because he has never died.
Jesus can in one sense be referred to as the "first and last" because he is the 'first and last' direct creation of his God and Father.

The speaker at Revelation 22:13 is not specifically identified, and there are various speakers in this chapter. Commenting on this section of Revelation, Professor William Barclay wrote: “Things are set down without any apparent order; . . . and it is often very difficult to be sure who is the actual speaker.” (The Revelation of John, Volume 2, Revised Edition, page 223)

Taking all things in context, I find no grounds for believing that Jesus is or ever was "God Almighty".

 

[David in NJ]

The Hebrew scholars say-- i will be what i will be-- is the correct translating of the statement that your bibles have- i am that i am--only trinity bibles have erred in that translating, to mislead.

OK
I will be what I will be = IAM that IAM

"I will BE what I will BE" underscores and magnifies Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

 

[David in NJ]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Hello Aunty Jane - my favorite Aunt here on CBF

Here you go my lovely Aunt = Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me.

Now Aunty, will you please turn your heart, eyes and ears to the ONE speaking (hint JESUS)

And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One.
(Aunty - who is this First and Last ???)
I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!
And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

HalleluYah Aunty Jane - JESUS is the Son of Man who was dead and now is alive forever = the First and the Last = Yahweh

Guess who is Coming Soon = JESUS/Yahweh
Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

 

[David in NJ]

Even the Israelite religious leaders have been telling the trinity clergys, the God they teach is false, for centuries. Because its not the God Israel served all throughout history from Moses on up until today. And its fact--they have the true God=YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. Their problem is they reject the Messiah but they still know the true God.

You do not know Scripture nor Yahweh for HE is JESUS who spoke with Moses and appeared to Moses on the Mountain.

SEE Post 728

PS - the Hebrew scholars are BLINDED by the vail of Moses and cannot see Yahweh/Jesus in the Scriptures.

They are blind like you only seeing a single God instead of having the Spirit to see the TRUTH

Oh, by the WAY is the TRUTH and LIFE that no one knows except whom Elohim Father calls.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Now Aunty, will you please turn your heart, eyes and ears to the ONE speaking (hint JESUS)

Just because I disagree with your understanding of the verses you quote, doesn't mean that I have no understanding of scripture....I probably study it deeper than most because that is the way my mind works.....I have to know how it all works so that every piece of the puzzle is in its right place. You have so many pieces either missing, or in the wrong place altogether, that the picture on the box is nothing like what you have strung together.

And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One.
(Aunty - who is this First and Last ???)

As I mentioned already..."Alpha and Omega" are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet whereas the "first and the last" is "prōtos" and "eschatos". You have two separate titles here.
"Alpha and Omega" is Yahweh, but the "first and last" is Jesus.

I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!
And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

HalleluYah Aunty Jane - JESUS is the Son of Man who was dead and now is alive forever = the First and the Last = Yahweh

LOL...really? Does 1+1+1=3???.....where does it say that?
In order for Jesus to die the same kind of death as Adam, he had to be 100% mortal.

Jesus became the "son of man" in order to pay the redemption price for the sins of the human race. He had to be the sinless equivalent of Adam to give his life for ours. He paid back the debt that Adam left to all his children. (Romans 5:12)
He is the "first" spirit being to be born as a human on earth, and the "last" who would ever need to do so.
He is the first human to be resurrected to life "in the spirit" but he needed to die in order to be resurrected....you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.....Since the Almighty is immortal, he could not die....therefore Jesus is not, and could never be, "God".

Guess who is Coming Soon = JESUS/Yahweh
Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

You and someone else here are like broken records....you do not understand the scripture you quote....

 

[David in NJ]

Just because I disagree with your understanding of the verses you quote, doesn't mean that I have no understanding of scripture....I probably study it deeper than most because that is the way my mind works.....I have to know how it all works so that every piece of the puzzle is in its right place. You have so many pieces either missing, or in the wrong place altogether, that the picture on the box is nothing like what you have strung together.


As I mentioned already..."Alpha and Omega" are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet whereas the "first and the last" is "prōtos" and "eschatos". You have two separate titles here.
"Alpha and Omega" is Yahweh, but the "first and last" is Jesus.


LOL...really? Does 1+1+1=3???.....where does it say that?
In order for Jesus to die the same kind of death as Adam, he had to be 100% mortal.

Jesus became the "son of man" in order to pay the redemption price for the sins of the human race. He had to be the sinless equivalent of Adam to give his life for ours. He paid back the debt that Adam left to all his children. (Romans 5:12)
He is the "first" spirit being to be born as a human on earth, and the "last" who would ever need to do so.
He is the first human to be resurrected to life "in the spirit" but he needed to die in order to be resurrected....you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.....Since the Almighty is immortal, he could not die....therefore Jesus is not, and could never be, "God".


You and someone else here are like broken records....you do not understand the scripture you quote....

JESUS Speaking = "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

lol - unbelief is sin Aunty especially when you speak against the LORD Jesus Christ

1 Father + 1 Son + 1 Holy Spirit = 3 are echad ELOHIM
This is from Genesis to Revelation
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Aunty Jane]

lol - unbelief is sin Aunty especially when you speak against the LORD Jesus Christ

Unbelief comes in many forms IMO. To teach that God is 'three' when scripture says he is 'one', is also speaking against the scriptures concerning the role of Yahweh and his Son.

You cannot provide a single scripture where either God or his son categorically state that the son and the Father are one and the same God......and nowhere is the Holy Spirit ever said to be “God”. You have suggestions and inference in ambiguous verses but you have not one clear statement that God is three or that Jesus is the equal of his God and Father.

1 Father + 1 Son + 1 Holy Spirit = 3 are echad ELOHIM

You have mentioned this a few times now.....
So, what is meant by the statement, “Yahweh our God is one Yahweh?” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

The context reveals that Moses had just finished restating to “all Israel” the Ten Commandments. (Deuteronomy 5:1-22) The first of these required that Israel never have “any other gods but” Yahweh. (Deuteronomy 5:7) Did the Jews have any notion that their “one God” was not one at all, but three? There is not a single reference that states they had any such idea. It would have been blasphemy.

When declaring that Israel’s God was “one Yahweh,” Moses evidently was opposing an important aspect of false worship by Gentile nations. The pagans had many gods....so any foreigner who wanted to become a follower of Jesus, had to leave all their false religious beliefs behind.
It reminds me of the recommendations made by the elders in Jerusalem when the Jews wanted to impose circumcision on their Gentile brothers. The “necessary things” that these Gentiles needed to uphold were things that their Jewish brothers had learned from infancy. (Acts 15:28-29) All the things the elders mentioned were for the benefit of the Gentiles believers.

The nations were polytheistic....and in contrast, Israel had only one God, Yahweh. The apostle Paul well expressed this when he said: “Even though there are those who are called ‘gods,’ whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God the Father.” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) This is what Jews believed and all of the Bible writers were Jewish.

When the polytheistic Greeks did not have a word for the nameless God of Israel, they took to using the definite article (ho “the”) to identify him in contrast to other “God-like” persons, like Jesus. Their word “theos” (god) did not just apply to Yahweh, but to all who were viewed as divine. These all had names to identify them. Yahweh, by this time was nameless because the Jews refused to utter his name, in spite of God’s Command at Exodus 3:14-15.

This is from Genesis to Revelation
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

I find no such teaching in God’s word.
In Greek, John 1:1 does not say what is translated into English. Understanding the meaning of “theos” and “ho theos” (or ton the·onʹ) reveals that the accepted English translation is flawed. One small word that is missing, changes the whole meaning of that statement.

To be true to the Greek, it should read...
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God (ho theos) and the Word was a god (theos)” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

“Theos” (which Strongs defines as ..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities") in other parts of the Christian Greek scriptures, describes satan, (2 Corinthians 4:4) human judges in Israel, and Jesus of course. (John 10:34-36) It applies to deities, those who have divine authority, and any "god or goddess" that was believed in.

 

[Kermos]

Twisting prov 8 does not change reality. Coll 1:15--the term- all creation-proves 100% its talking about the beginning creation. Your teachers twist that as well. You are being mislead in a house divided, it will not stand.

You foolishly think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8; in other words, you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.

In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl [URL='http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm']biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm[/URL]) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:25.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

Unbelief comes in many forms IMO. To teach that God is 'three' when scripture says he is 'one', is also speaking against the scriptures concerning the role of Yahweh and his Son.

You cannot provide a single scripture where either God or his son categorically state that the son and the Father are one and the same God......and nowhere is the Holy Spirit ever said to be “God”. You have suggestions and inference in ambiguous verses but you have not one clear statement that God is three or that Jesus is the equal of his God and Father.


You have mentioned this a few times now.....
So, what is meant by the statement, “Yahweh our God is one Yahweh?” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

The context reveals that Moses had just finished restating to “all Israel” the Ten Commandments. (Deuteronomy 5:1-22) The first of these required that Israel never have “any other gods but” Yahweh. (Deuteronomy 5:7) Did the Jews have any notion that their “one God” was not one at all, but three? There is not a single reference that states they had any such idea. It would have been blasphemy.

When declaring that Israel’s God was “one Yahweh,” Moses evidently was opposing an important aspect of false worship by Gentile nations. The pagans had many gods....so any foreigner who wanted to become a follower of Jesus, had to leave all their false religious beliefs behind.
It reminds me of the recommendations made by the elders in Jerusalem when the Jews wanted to impose circumcision on their Gentile brothers. The “necessary things” that these Gentiles needed to uphold were things that their Jewish brothers had learned from infancy. (Acts 15:28-29) All the things the elders mentioned were for the benefit of the Gentiles believers.

The nations were polytheistic....and in contrast, Israel had only one God, Yahweh. The apostle Paul well expressed this when he said: “Even though there are those who are called ‘gods,’ whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God the Father.” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) This is what Jews believed and all of the Bible writers were Jewish.

When the polytheistic Greeks did not have a word for the nameless God of Israel, they took to using the definite article (ho “the”) to identify him in contrast to other “God-like” persons, like Jesus. Their word “theos” (god) did not just apply to Yahweh, but to all who were viewed as divine. These all had names to identify them. Yahweh, by this time was nameless because the Jews refused to utter his name, in spite of God’s Command at Exodus 3:14-15.


I find no such teaching in God’s word.
In Greek, John 1:1 does not say what is translated into English. Understanding the meaning of “theos” and “ho theos” (or ton the·onʹ) reveals that the accepted English translation is flawed. One small word that is missing, changes the whole meaning of that statement.

To be true to the Greek, it should read...
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God (ho theos) and the Word was a god (theos)” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

“Theos” (which Strongs defines as ..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities") in other parts of the Christian Greek scriptures, describes satan, (2 Corinthians 4:4) human judges in Israel, and Jesus of course. (John 10:34-36) It applies to deities, those who have divine authority, and any "god or goddess" that was believed in.

Aunty,

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: = this is Plurality of Elohim as a plural united/unified one
Study the scripture = the Hebrew word for one is echad when used in the Shema. echad is a plural one meaning united /unified
Yahweh our Elehenu/Gods are echad/united one

Genesis Exodus Isaiah Gospel of John Acts Revelation openly declare and reveal Jesus is Yahweh

ELOHIM/Gods Abraham + ELOHIM/Gods Isaac + ELOHIM/Gods Jacob = 3 are echad/united one
Father + Son + Holy Spirit are echad/One
This is the Gospel of Elohim
Jesus/Yahweh or LORD and Savior, there is no other Elohim and there is no other Savior

You cannot worship YHWH apart from worshipping at the feet of JESUS
Anyone who hates this TRUTH hates YHWH and does not know HIM

 

[David in NJ]

You foolishly think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8; in other words, you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.

In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:25.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Question for you this Day: Who walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden?
Was it the Father or the Son?

 

[Rich R]

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15)

Caesar's image was on the coin the Pharisees showed Jesus. The coin was not actually Caesar.

In normal language, an image of something is just that, the image. It's not the thing.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).

What is it about being the firstborn that makes someone not having been born at all? Jesus was born. Jesus clearly was born.

Matt 1:18,

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.​

• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

• Yes all things came THROUGH Jesus. I get my water THROUGH pipes. The pipes are not the water.

John 1:1-2 is talking about the Word, the logos. Why do you keep changing that word to "Jesus?"

• Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God

There are no less than 6 verses that clearly say with absolutely no ambiguity that Jesus was a man:

1. Romans 5:15
2. Acts 2:22
3. Acts 17:31
4. 1 Tim 2:5
5. John 4:29
6. John 8:40

There are absolutely no verses that state in such clear terms that Jesus was God. Trinitarians are forced to pick several scattered verses they then twist to say Jesus is God.

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

That's pretty clear. The only God is the Father. You could try to find something that says, "To us there is but one God, the Son..." but you'd be looking in vain.

In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Rev 3:14,

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
​

To insert the trinity here shows the incredible power of suggestion. If you just read what's written, How does it refer to Jesus as truly God? What it actually says is Jesus is, "the beginning of the creation of God." Maybe you misunderstand the meaning of "beginning" and "creation?"

• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.

Well you got that right, so I know you can read and understand (which I knew anyway ). But you don't seem to understand what an image of something is. You see your image in the mirror everyday. I assume you yourself are not hung on the wall over the bathroom sink!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Joshua means, "God Saved." Joshua was God?
Isaiah means," God Has Saved." Was Isaiah also God?
Ezekiel means, "God Will strengthen." Do we then add Ezekiel to the pantheon of gods?
My name is Rich. Why don't I have a 180' yacht and private jet?

 

[tigger 2]

You foolishly think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8; in other words, you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.

In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:25.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

................................................

Prov. 8:24 - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. - KJV

The Hebrew word for “brought forth” here revolves around the act of birthing.

So how do trinitarian translators understand its meaning at Prov. 8:24?

“I was brought forth” - ASV; AMPC; BRG; CEB; CJB; DARBY; EHV; ESV; KJV; KJ21; LEB; MEV; NAB; NASB 1995; NCB; NKJV; NRSV; RSV; TLV; etc.

“I was born” - AMP; CSB; CEV; ERV; EXB; GW; GNT; HCSB; NOG; NASB; NCV; NET; NIRV; NLV; NLT; VOICE; WEB; etc.

How about modern Jewish translators?

"The LORD [YHWH] created me at the beginning of His course As the first of His works of old." - Tanakh.

How did the ancient Jewish translators of the Septuagint understand Prov. 8?

“The Lord made [created (ektise)] me the beginning of his ways for his works.” - Prov. 8:22.

How about Hebrew-English Lexicons?

A noted Hebrew-English Lexicon has for qanah in Prov. 8:22:

“1 get, acquire (all poetry):

“a. of God as originating, creating, קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ Genesis 14:19, 22; Deuteronomy 32:6 (Israel), Psalm 139:13 (כִּלְֹיתָ֑י); Proverbs 8:22 ( חכמה q. v.).” - Brown-Driver-Briggs, p. 888-889.

And how about the Ante-Nicene fathers?

Justin Martyr wrote about Wisdom in Prov. 8 - “The Lord made [ektise, 'created'] me the beginning of His ways for His works.’ - ANF 1:227-228 (‘Dialogue’).

Here is what Irenaeus taught about the Son of God, Wisdom, the Word, speaking at Prov. 8:22-25:

“The Lord created me the beginning of His ways in His work ... before all the hills, He brought me forth ... when He made the foundations of the earth strong, I was with Him preparing [them].”

....

“There is therefore one God, who by {through} the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all {other} things.” - ANF 1:488.

Like Irenaeus (and most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers), Origen considered “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 to be Christ, the Son of God. He wrote:

“we have first to ascertain what the only-begotten Son of God is, seeing He is called by many different names, according to the circumstances and views of individuals. For He is termed Wisdom, according to the expression of Solomon:

‘The Lord created me {Wisdom, ‘the only-begotten Son of God’} - the beginning {see Rev. 3:14} of His ways, and among His works, before He made any other thing; He founded me before the ages. In the beginning, before He formed the earth, before He brought forth the fountains of waters, before the mountains were made strong, before all the hills, He brought me forth.’ {Prov. 8:22-25}

He is also styled First-born, as the apostle has declared: ‘who is the first-born of every creature.’ {Col. 1:15} - ANF 4:246, ‘De Principiis’.

Tertullian, too, like the other Ante-Nicene Fathers, taught that Prov. 8:22-30 relates the words of the Son of God, Christ (speaking as “Wisdom”):

“‘At first the Lord created me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works, before He made the earth, before the mountains were settled; moreover, before all the hills did He beget me;’ that is to say, He created and generated me in His own intelligence.” - ANF, 3:601, ‘Against Praxeas’.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 - c. 213) as with most (if not all) of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, also believed and taught that Prov. 8:22-30 presented the words of the Son of God (speaking as “Wisdom”) in his pre-human existence. He wrote:

“Wisdom, which was the first of the creation of God.” (Cf. Rev. 3:14) - ANF 2:465, ‘The Stromata.’

And to make it perfectly clear, Clement writes:

“To know God is, then, the first step of faith .... But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is most perfect ... which orders all things in accordance with the Father's will” - ANF 2:524, ‘The Stromata.’

 

[Keiw]

OK
I will be what I will be = IAM that IAM

"I will BE what I will BE" underscores and magnifies Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

You are making it up

 

[Keiw]

You do not know Scripture nor Yahweh for HE is JESUS who spoke with Moses and appeared to Moses on the Mountain.

SEE Post 728

PS - the Hebrew scholars are BLINDED by the vail of Moses and cannot see Yahweh/Jesus in the Scriptures.

They are blind like you only seeing a single God instead of having the Spirit to see the TRUTH

Oh, by the WAY is the TRUTH and LIFE that no one knows except whom Elohim Father calls.

YHWH(LORD) said to my Lord(Jesus)-- proves Jesus is not YHWH.

 

[Keiw]

You foolishly think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8; in other words, you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.

In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:25.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Prov 8:25--brought forth with labor pains.