A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
- Thread starter Hidden In Him
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Caesar's image was on the coin the Pharisees showed Jesus. The coin was not actually Caesar.
In normal language, an image of something is just that, the image. It's not the thing.
What is it about being the firstborn that makes someone not having been born at all? Jesus was born. Jesus clearly was born.
Matt 1:18,
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
John 1:1-2 is talking about the Word, the logos. Why do you keep changing that word to "Jesus?"
- Yes all things came THROUGH Jesus. I get my water THROUGH pipes. The pipes are not the water.
There are no less than 6 verses that clearly say with absolutely no ambiguity that Jesus was a man:
There are absolutely no verses that state in such clear terms that Jesus was God. Trinitarians are forced to pick several scattered verses they then twist to say Jesus is God.
- Romans 5:15
- Acts 2:22
- Acts 17:31
- 1 Tim 2:5
- John 4:29
- John 8:40
1Cor 8:6,
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.That's pretty clear. The only God is the Father. You could try to find something that says, "To us there is but one God, the Son..." but you'd be looking in vain.
Rev 3:14,
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;To insert the trinity here shows the incredible power of suggestion. If you just read what's written, How does it refer to Jesus as truly God? What it actually says is Jesus is, "the beginning of the creation of God." Maybe you misunderstand the meaning of "beginning" and "creation?"
Well you got that right, so I know you can read and understand (which I knew anyway). But you don't seem to understand what an image of something is. You see your image in the mirror everyday. I assume you yourself are not hung on the wall over the bathroom sink!
Joshua means, "God Saved." Joshua was God?
Isaiah means," God Has Saved." Was Isaiah also God?
Ezekiel means, "God Will strengthen." Do we then add Ezekiel to the pantheon of gods?
My name is Rich. Why don't I have a 180' yacht and private jet?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
But [f]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I [g]do not know a man?”
35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37For with God nothing will be impossible.”
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, Elohim(God) is a Plurality of THREE that is One in Eternal Elohim = Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Gospel of John ch1
So was it God the Father or God the Son who walked with Adam& Eve in the Garden
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I can only reiterate....
“You cannot provide a single scripture where either God or his son categorically state that the son and the Father are one and the same God......and nowhere is the Holy Spirit ever said to be “God”. You have suggestions and inference in ambiguous verses but you have not one clear statement that God is three or that Jesus is the equal of his God and Father.”
When you can produce the direct evidence by quoting either God or his Son, stating that they are one and the same “God”, along with the Holy Spirit, then we will have something to discuss.
That is one way to interpret it, but certainly not the only way....
(El·o·himʹ) [Heb., ʼelo·himʹ (gods), plural of ʼeloʹah (god)
This Hebrew word is of uncertain derivation, but it is generally thought to be from a root meaning “to be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼeloʹah, sometimes in the numerical sense (Genesis 31:30, 32; Genesis 35:2) but more often it signifies the plural of majesty, dignity or excellence.....the “Royal WE”.
ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural) and to men. (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 8:5; Judges 16:23; Exodus 20:23; Psalm 82:6)
As to the title “savior”, that is not exclusive to Jesus either....Yahweh is the one who sent the savior, making him a savior as well. You guys stumble over words without understanding their meaning.
God appointed Othniel as a “savior” for Israel. (Judges 3:9) The word simply means a rescuer. The one who send the rescuer is also a rescuer.
I believe you need to think outside your very narrow box....it was created by those who were not guided by God or Christ....the one who sowed the “weeds” of counterfeit Christianity was the devil. Jesus himself warned about these “weeds” and yet Christendom never sees that they are a product of them. None of their teachings line up with what Jesus taught and their conduct reveals that they have no knowledge of him. (John 3:35-36)
That is a very strong assertion to make to someone who has great love for both Yahweh and his Son.
Accusations and condemnation based on assertions don’t hold much water I’m afraid.
I was raised with your beliefs and rejected them outright on learning what the scriptures themselves teach about the relationship of God the Father and his “firstborn” Son. (Colossians 1:15)
It is God who declares his Fatherhood and Jesus who declares his sonship...if this was not the relationship between them, why speak of it in human terms if it was not to be understood that way?
The “only begotten son of God” was in existence long before any other creation, he being the first and only direct creation of his Father. This precious Son was then assigned to fabricate all other creation, using the raw materials that his Father created. (Colossians 1:16-17) There is only one Creator and that is Yahweh. His Son was working at his side and under his direction in the whole process, as Proverbs 8:30-31 states. He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.
If anyone puts another “god” in the Father’s place, they have breached the first Commandment.
Christendom was not content to put only one other “god”, but two in the Father’s place.....to the extent that the Father takes a back seat to the Son in most of Christendom’s teachings.....search Jesus’ teachings and you will find that he is a “servant” of his superior Father, always doing his Father’s will. (Acts 4:27; John 14:28; John 5:19) Yahweh is also his God, even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)
I have been on both sides of this fence and I can assure you that I have researched all things very carefully.....if you have done the same, and your posts tell me that you haven’t, then what more can be said? Jesus will correct all of us when he comes as judge, then not a single one will be able to offer an excuse to him.....will they? (Matthew 7:21-23)
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane, i enjoy talking/sharing with you but please do not respond with a page of whatever.
Let's keep the mind search on and simplify by looking at precise passages = comparing OT with NT.
Like this question: Who walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden?
Was it the Father or the Son?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I include too much for you to assimilate, but this is a lifetime study for me....there is much to include.
The “Logos” was the one who participated in creation and who represented God in every way as his “firstborn” son. What was the point of calling the pre-human Jesus his “firstborn”, if other “sons” were not to follow? We know that God has many “sons” in heaven, so Jesus is a unique son of God, but not the only one.
As the Logos, (one who speaks God’s words) the pre-human Jesus always spoke for his Father. That is what this tile means, and it is only one of many titles that he has been given by his Father.
So any time that God spoke, it was through his Logos.....his representative. I believe that the pre-human Jesus played a huge part in God’s dealings with his people, long before he came to fulfill his earthly mission.
And, since Jesus is also “the only mediator between God and men” how can he be God? If sin is the barrier between God and men that his appointed mediator bridges, why don’t we need a mediator between us and Christ?
John 1:1 is a mistranslation of the Greek, as you have been shown, so then what does John 1:18 say....?
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB1995)
Hang on.....what does it mean “no one has ever seen God at any time”. If Jesus was God, that would be a lie. How many people saw Jesus?
But what about the next part? “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him“. This is “monogenes theos” (only begotten god) and correctly translated here in the NASB 1995 version. But look what happens in the 2020 revision....
“No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)
Where did the original text say “God the only Son” ? It didn’t....so the revision was changed from that uncomfortable rendering indicating something other than the trinity, to something more acceptable to trinitarians. This to me is sickening.....
I don’t think you guys have any idea of how misled you are. There is no “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”....the Catholic church made them up. The devil has you worshipping the wrong “god”, but only careful word studies will reveal this to those of you not so indoctrinated that they can’t see past this deliberate attempt to misrepresent the Creator.
I have to wonder if you have....?
Since we have Father and Son working side by side in creation, and the Son was the Logos who was “with Ho theos” that means that the son was the one who always spoke for the Father.
The “Logos” was the one who participated in creation and who represented God in every way as his “firstborn” son. What was the point of calling the pre-human Jesus his “firstborn”, if other “sons” were not to follow? We know that God has many “sons” in heaven, so Jesus is a unique son of God, but not the only one.
As the Logos, (one who speaks God’s words) the pre-human Jesus always spoke for his Father. That is what this tile means, and it is only one of many titles that he has been given by his Father.
So any time that God spoke, it was through his Logos.....his representative. I believe that the pre-human Jesus played a huge part in God’s dealings with his people, long before he came to fulfill his earthly mission.
And, since Jesus is also “the only mediator between God and men” how can he be God? If sin is the barrier between God and men that his appointed mediator bridges, why don’t we need a mediator between us and Christ?
John 1:1 is a mistranslation of the Greek, as you have been shown, so then what does John 1:18 say....?
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB1995)
Hang on.....what does it mean “no one has ever seen God at any time”. If Jesus was God, that would be a lie. How many people saw Jesus?
But what about the next part? “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him“. This is “monogenes theos” (only begotten god) and correctly translated here in the NASB 1995 version. But look what happens in the 2020 revision....
“No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)
Where did the original text say “God the only Son” ? It didn’t....so the revision was changed from that uncomfortable rendering indicating something other than the trinity, to something more acceptable to trinitarians. This to me is sickening.....
I don’t think you guys have any idea of how misled you are. There is no “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”....the Catholic church made them up. The devil has you worshipping the wrong “god”, but only careful word studies will reveal this to those of you not so indoctrinated that they can’t see past this deliberate attempt to misrepresent the Creator.
Last edited:
Rich R
Well-Known Member
All good verses for sure, but none are as clear as the 6 verses I quoted that said in no uncertain terms called Jesus a man. If you recall, I also pointed out there are no such clear verses calling him God.
As far as John 1 is concerned, It's just assumed that 1:1-3 is talking about Jesus. It isn't. It's talking about God and the plan, the logos (not Jesus) of John 1:1 that he had in mind from the beginning, i.e our redemption through Jesus. When one party goes through another to do something it is clear that the two parties are not the same party. It's always two distinct people. A movie star and their agent are not one and the same person. The movie star goes through their agent to get the contract. Jesus is God's PERFECT agent in that he always did and said what God said, up to and including the crucifixion. That's why he was perfect. All God's other agents (Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc) did a pretty good job of what they did, but God needed a very special agent to redeem us, one that would voluntarily submit to major torture and death. And that would be AFTER living a live without sinning one single time despite being tempted just like all of us. Not just any man could do that. It had to be the lamb without blemish. That's all about the virgin birth. Jesus started out perfect, but he could have disobeyed anytime he wanted. Luckily he always did what what God wanted done. He was God's perfect human agent on earth.
Verse 3 agrees with Genesis 1:1 that God created the universe. There is simply no need to insert a trinity. It makes perfect sense without one, and with one it makes the whole Bible highly incomprehensible. I mean, who can comprehend a son being his own father?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
YES, the Word became flesh and Yahweh came to earth, according to Prophecy = born of a virgin.
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
Hebrews ch10
Since you think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your interpretation of Proverbs 8, then you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.
In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.
The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!
As I previously quoted Paul "Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24), so JESUS IS THE WISDOM OF GOD.
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." (Proverbs 8:22, NASB)
"Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then." (Proverbs 8:22, YLT)
"The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works." (Proverbs 8:22, Septuagint - Brenton)
According to the Septuagint, YHWH God made/assigned/appointed the Wisdom of God the beginning of God's ways for God's works.
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), so the Wisdom of God, Jesus, begins the creation and completes the creation (Proverbs 8:22, Revelation 3:14), Jesus is the beginning of creation of God because Jesus is not created while Jesus performed the creative act.
The Proverbs 8:22 Septuagint passage does not state the Wisdom of God was created.
The Proverbs 8:22 TaNaKah has the word "possessed" (Strong's 7069) which properly and truthfully conveys that YHWH God possessed Wisdom at the beginning of God's way, before God's works of old - God always has Wisdom.
Your Proverbs 8:22 delusion is exposed!
This goes for you too @Aunty Jane since you like to tigger 2's post.
Your appeal to non-scripture is vacuous, and causes confusion for you.
Now, onto Proverbs 8:24-25.
"When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water" (Proverbs 8:24).
"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25).
The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.
The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):
- dance
- twist, writhe
- whirl
The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.
The phrase "waited for anxiously", that is "brought forth", conveys the debut of God's Wisdom.
The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.
The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:24-25.
The Hebrew word chuwl (Stong's 2342) conveys danced, paraded, brought forth, presented, and displayed, not created.
God brought forth in majesty God's Wisdom; in other words, YHWH God displayed the Wisdom of God in wonderful regal array.
The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!
You shamelessly and foolishly claim that God was stupid because you say that God's Wisdom was created according to Proverbs 8 - so your heart's contention is that God was without God's Wisdom at some point in eternity past.
The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).
Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i learned something new and Glorious Today from your Post = Thank You
TODAY, if you will hear His Voice, harden not your hearts............listen up Aunty Jane and others = hear His Voice and harden not your hearts
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The expression “Son of God” (singular) primarily identifies Christ Jesus. This agrees with the description "only begotten", but in order to be "begotten" (a word used in scripture to describe human children) Jesus needed a "begetter"....someone who existed before him and cause his existence.
Others are referred to as “son(s) of God” and these include intelligent spirit creatures (angels) created by God....the man Adam before he sinned, (Luke 3:38) and humans with whom God has dealt on the basis of covenant relationship (Fleshly Israel, as well as those "adopted" as sons under the new covenant. Romans 8:14-17).
Job 1:6 gives us a glimpse of the heavenly arrangement in the days of the Patriarch Job.
Psalm 89:6 also mentions "sons of God".
Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15. The term "firstborn" is meaningless unless other sons or daughters are born after the first child.
What did you learn? Nothing from what I can gather....
Proverbs 8:22...
CJB...“Adonai made me as the beginning of his way, the first of his ancient works."
GNT...“The Lord created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago."
HCSB...“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago."
TLB..."The Lord formed me in the beginning, before he created anything else."
NASB...“The Lord created me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old."
NET..."The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago."
NIRV...“The Lord created me as the first of his works, before his acts of long ago."
NIV...“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old".
RSV..."The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old."
Do you want to argue with all those accepted translations? It goes on in verses 30-31...
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind."
Who argues that this is speaking of the pre-human Jesus as the personification of wisdom? (1 Corinthians 1:24-25)
Colossians 1:15-17 backs this up.....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB)
You assume that it it isn't you who needs to listen up....that's pretty presumptuous considering all the scripture you have been shown....
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
YES, God who is comprised of the FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT
The expression “Son of God” (singular) primarily identifies Christ Jesus. This agrees with the description "only begotten", but in order to be "begotten" (a word used in scripture to describe human children) Jesus needed a "begetter"....someone who existed before him and cause his existence.
Others are referred to as “son(s) of God” and these include intelligent spirit creatures (angels) created by God....the man Adam before he sinned, (Luke 3:38) and humans with whom God has dealt on the basis of covenant relationship (Fleshly Israel, as well as those "adopted" as sons under the new covenant. Romans 8:14-17).
Job 1:6 gives us a glimpse of the heavenly arrangement in the days of the Patriarch Job.
Psalm 89:6 also mentions "sons of God".
Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15. The term "firstborn" is meaningless unless other sons or daughters are born after the first child.
What did you learn? Nothing from what I can gather....
Proverbs 8:22...
CJB...“Adonai made me as the beginning of his way, the first of his ancient works."
GNT...“The Lord created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago."
HCSB...“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago."
TLB..."The Lord formed me in the beginning, before he created anything else."
NASB...“The Lord created me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old."
NET..."The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago."
NIRV...“The Lord created me as the first of his works, before his acts of long ago."
NIV...“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old".
RSV..."The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old."
Do you want to argue with all those accepted translations? It goes on in verses 30-31...
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind."
Who argues that this is speaking of the pre-human Jesus as the personification of wisdom? (1 Corinthians 1:24-25)
Colossians 1:15-17 backs this up.....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB)
You assume that it it isn't you who needs to listen up....that's pretty presumptuous considering all the scripture you have been shown....
Aunty Jane = you are looking at scripture with a false god in front of your mind that prevents you, like the Jews, from seeing Yahweh = their Savior.
I SEE the Scriptures = Elohim Abraham Elohim Isaac Elohim Jacob
You do not know what this means and why Yahweh/Elohim did this.
Because you do not know this you will have a false view on every aspect of Scripture that declares who the LORD actually IS = IAM = Jesus
Yahweh/Jesus did not create Himself and neither did the Father create Yahweh/Jesus.
There exist NOT one scripture saying "the Father created the Son".
Only in your mind, just as a catholic prays to Mary = ONLY in their minds and not from Elohim Holy Spirit.
For I am the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and My servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may consider and believe Me
and understand that I am He.
Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come. I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me. I
alone decreed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“that I am God.
Jesus interpreted it as follows, Matthew 22:31-32 (WEB):
(31) But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven’t you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
(32) ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
(32) ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Rich R
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
AWESOME = AMEN = REJOICE in the LORD Jesus Christ = HE is not the God of the dead but of the Living.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Abraham listened to the Voice of God and believed and therefore Abraham lives.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
Behold, He (Jesus) is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord(Yahweh), “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:7-8
- Status
Similar threads
